County engine options

[DMG]

Anyone got some good ideas on re-engining a 4 speed 3.5 county.

[BMac]

Easiest is a 3.9 V8, but best :D is a 3.9 Isuzu.

Bruce.

[DMG]

Hey Bruce thanks for the info. I ve been chasing a 4BD1T with no luck as yet. If you know of one I'd be interested. That your white County? same as mine, white with blue zubries. Ive been down to Brunswick today to check out the 6.5's. Dropped into anothe place on the way back for other engines. TF and TM mazda's no less. More research to do yet.

Catcha

Dave

[Dinty]

G'day Lads, in my opinion, you would be better off with the Isuzu 3.9Diesel, as the rebuild kits are relativley cheap compared to other engines. Surely there must be some wrecked Isuzu small trucks out there. I have in my shed a ex-mil Isuzu engine block with some bitz still on it, I have sold off many small parts, I still have the head with inlet and exhaust manifolds but then I still have a County 3.9D cheers and good luck looking for one, Dennis

[LRHybrid100]

Years ago the Mazda SLT 3500 was the conversion in the UK to have - this was before the Tdi was readily available from wreckers.

The Rangie with SLT's used to shift - almost as good as a V8!!!

LRH

[mark2]

Marks Adaptors make a kit for Holden 253's and 308's, I have been thinking of going this way however now that 3.9i Disco 1's are getting cheaper by the day (have seen them at wholesale actions for around 2-3k), I will probably end up buying a cheap one, using the engine and injection gear, and parting out the rest.

Isuzu 3.9's are good, but they are also noisy and have huge inherent vibration levels at idle. Power in n/a form is not much to write home about either.............

[loanrangie]

If you cant find a 4bd1 then maybe a 4bj1 2.8 isuzu from a jackaroo/ rodeo, they use the same bolt pattern as the 3.9 and are turbo and intercooled.

[DeeJay]

I got a 4.2 rover motor from a LSE pommy range rover fitted, it is great.
I would advise against anything bigger, it would be heavy on the fuel for no gain- unless you were towing a real big load a lot.
Cheers,
David

[DMG]

Thanks men, good info as always. Dennis you still got an engine bellhousing on that block? Ive got the trans bellhousing for the 4BD but need the engine bellhousing. It is not fitted to normal 4BD's
I am gonner find out some more guff on the mazda TF & TM, 4 and 4.6 ltr !!! Also I looked at the Nissan TD42, 4.2ltr. Outward package on all 3 engines is compact and possibly lighter than the Isuzu. If I was gonner stay petrol than I would overhaul and blow and squirt the 3.5 which is a fine engine.

Catcha
Dave

[Gavo]

I think the bit your looking for it called a sandwich plate, that goes between the block and the bell housing. I know of one bloke who ordered his form land rover, but he needed to show them the part number first as they had no record of it at the dealers.

I would keep looking for the 4bdi.
Avoid Nissan products they cost 'an arm and a leg' for parts. I had a ed33 Nissan in a land rover once and a new starter was $1600.00, the same price as a 4bdi wear parts kit.
They have good all round performance and good economy.And with your 4 speed that would go well. I am not sure if the transfer gear ratio would need changing.

Keep in mind that you will need to find the 12 volt electrics, as the truck one may be 24 volt.
There are also subtle variations with in the 4bdi engine range. Some have power steering pumps on the timing cover that are gear driven

[LandyAndy]

Hi DMG
I had a look at a 96 Disco1 in Bunbury a while back with a Chevy V8 Diesel from Brunswicks,it was a new conversion at Ron Krikkies yard,they wanted 25G for it,GET REAL.Krikkie sells converted Tojos mainly along with his other poo.
Must admit,the conversion was very nice,200% TIDY,better than factory.And a 6.5 turbodiesel Chev in a Disco would fly.
I asked how much to get one in BlackBetty,being a Landrover he said around 20Grand,GET REAL
Andrew

[p38arover]

I got a 4.2 rover motor from a LSE pommy range rover fitted, it is great.
I would advise against anything bigger, it would be heavy on the fuel for no gain- unless you were towing a real big load a lot.

The fuel injected 4.6 in my P38A is more economical than the 3.5 in the County I recently sold - and the P38A is heavier.

I was tempted to rebuild my old 4.6 engine and fit it to the County.

Ron

[JDNSW]

I think the bit your looking for it called a sandwich plate, that goes between the block and the bell housing. I know of one bloke who ordered his form land rover, but he needed to show them the part number first as they had no record of it at the dealers.

I would keep looking for the 4bdi.
Avoid Nissan products they cost 'an arm and a leg' for parts. I had a ed33 Nissan in a land rover once and a new starter was $1600.00, the same price as a 4bdi wear parts kit.
They have good all round performance and good economy.And with your 4 speed that would go well. I am not sure if the transfer gear ratio would need changing.

Keep in mind that you will need to find the 12 volt electrics, as the truck one may be 24 volt.
There are also subtle variations with in the 4bdi engine range. Some have power steering pumps on the timing cover that are gear driven

The transfer ratio is the same in low but the high is 0.996:1, different from the V8. Possibly the same as early RR, if so should be easy to find, perhaps complete LT95.
The LT95 is said to be the only box that really stands up to the 4BD1.
My County has the power steering pump gear driven, I don't know if all 4BD1s in Landrovers do.
If sourcing a second hand 4BD1 try to get the 12v electrics with it as these are not cheap, although you may be able to recoup some of the cost by selling the 24v electrics.
John

[Dinty]

G'day Dave, No I do not have that particular part it went a long time ago, and JDNSW the 4BD1 in the Stage 1 Land Rover did not have power/assist steering (all of them were Armstrong types LOL) the County range of Land Rover vehicles were the first with PAS, and I suppose I had better add in here Range Rover has always had PAS cheers mate Dennis

[p38arover]

I had better add in here Range Rover has always had PAS

I believe early RRs did not have power assisted steering as standard. It was, however, optional.

Ron

[JDNSW]

I believe early RRs did not have power assisted steering as standard. It was, however, optional.

Ron

Correct, PAS did not become standard on the Rangerover until about 1975 from memory, although most did have it.
I was not thinking of the Stage1 - but you're right,as far as I know it was not even an option for that regardless of engine (but the Isuzu was much heavier than the V8!). Power steering became an option with the 110 in 1983, and was probably standard with the County pack. I don't believe any of the army's 110s with the Isuzu engine have power steering, so they will not have the pump, although some may have it powering a hydraulic winch perhaps.
John

[rovercare]

I believe early RRs did not have power assisted steering as standard. It was, however, optional.

Ron

As of 1976 it was standard.

[rovercare]

The fuel injected 4.6 in my P38A is more economical than the 3.5 in the County I recently sold - and the P38A is heavier.

I was tempted to rebuild my old 4.6 engine and fit it to the County.

Ron

That would be one of the sillier things i've read in a while Deejay, the fact is, capacity and economy is a balance, to small you'll labour and suck juice, to big and your feeding a large motor for nothing unless you adjust your gearing etc. A 4.2 is still small and no rocket and also a fuel guzzler, but still a much better motor than a 3.5 (like that's hard) and its always nice to have a few horsies to spare, My 5l EFI windsor i had in my rangie 3speed auto 35's used less fuel than a mates 3.9l disco with 33's and a 4 speed transmission with power to spare over the 3.9.

[Bushie]

As of 1976 it was standard.
I think it may have been even later, my 12/76 RR had power steering my mates 12/76 did not, even thought the VIN #s were only 12 different.


Martyn

[DeeJay]

That would be one of the sillier things i've read in a while Deejay, the fact is, capacity and economy is a balance, to small you'll labour and suck juice, to big and your feeding a large motor for nothing unless you adjust your gearing etc. A 4.2 is still small and no rocket and also a fuel guzzler, but still a much better motor than a 3.5 (like that's hard) and its always nice to have a few horsies to spare, My 5l EFI windsor i had in my rangie 3speed auto 35's used less fuel than a mates 3.9l disco with 33's and a 4 speed transmission with power to spare over the 3.9.

Rovercare,
I was brought up in Series Landies, not Aston Martins, 4.2l is ample:)
The question got lost amongst all the answers methinks.
Ron,
I really don't think a 4.6 even with EFI would return better fuel economy than my 4.2 in a County (It is actually out of a LSE Rangie).Did 4.6l Rangies get better economy than 3.9's ?
The gearing in a p38 is different as is its weight and aerodynamics to a County so I would hope it gets better economy.
Of course a 5l Windsor would crap over both and get better fuel economy, but you would need to alter the gearing coz 2920 rpm at 100 klm/hr is what the County does.
Cheers,
David

[p38arover]

Ron,
I really don't think a 4.6 even with EFI would return better fuel economy than my 4.2 in a County (It is actually out of a LSE Rangie).Did 4.6l Rangies get better economy than 3.9's ?

Yes. A P38A with a 4.6 will easily get 13-15 litres/100km on highway. I did a trip to Coffs harbour (550 km each way) and averaged 13 litres/100 each way. That's calculated by the onboard computer and by my own calcs - I record all fuel purchases on my PC.

A similar trip at a lower speed in my 3.5 County averaged 19 litres/100 km.



The gearing in a p38 is different as is its weight and aerodynamics to a County so I would hope it gets better economy.[quote]

Yep, a P38A is heavier than a County. :) Gearing might be different. The diff ratios are the same at 3.54:1. One would need to look at the transfer case ratios. Also, the P38A is an automatic and the County is a manual. One normally expects manuals to be more fuel efficient. However, that is offset by the better efficiency of fuel injection.

[quote=DeeJay]....coz 2920 rpm at 100 klm/hr is what the County does.

I think the P38A does 2500 rpm at 100 km/h once the torque converter locks up. Until then, it's doing about 2800 rpm. I'll check tomorrow.

Ron

[tam242]

I have a county with a later model defender 200Tdi in it, so you could always purchase a later model wreck and transfer the engine/gearbox etc from that!.

Could get costly though?

adrian

[rovercare]

I think it may have been even later, my 12/76 RR had power steering my mates 12/76 did not, even thought the VIN #s were only 12 different.


Martyn

Sorry,should read after 1976:(

[Rayngie]

Friend of mine put a whole drivetrain from a P38 into his, went to Cape York & back without a hitch,

[PhilipA]

The reason a 4.0/4.6 gets better fuel economy than a 3.9, is not the size of the engine but the sophistication of the Fuel injection.

A 38A has GEMS fuel injection with EDIS, electronic advance maps, knock sensors to allow maximum advance , and O2 sensors which regulate the A/F ratio to 14.7 :1 at all times on light throttle. At the time it was one of the most advanced in the world. 38A also ran much hotter than a 3.9 with 98C thermostat. and the above are also reasons why all the 4.6s **** themselves.

All things being equal a 4.0/4.6 will run much more advanced and leaner than a 3.9 with 14CUX.

Most of the gain from my 3.9 Unichip is in the rudamentary electronic advance curve of the unichip.
Regard s Philip A

[LRHybrid100]

So a 3.9 running something like a Haltec computer would be the go?

As this is my intention for my D100 project - already have a UK spec Hi comp 3.9 but with the later Lucas EFI system all from a 1994 Rangie.

LRH

[p38arover]

So a 3.9 running something like a Haltec computer would be the go?

My previous RR (an '86 model with a Davis stroker and big bore conversion to 4.6 litres well before the P38A was introduced) had a Haltech EFI 'cos the original EFI couldn't flow enough fuel.

Ron

[PhilipA]

Well this is where the question becomes.
"How much do you want to spend on dyno time?"
Halteks and others will all do a good job on full throttle but its the economy /manners on part throttle and cold start that car makers spend millions on.

With a mapped EDIS or even dizzy setup you can get an advance map, but how long will it take on a dyno to work out best advance at 1/4 throttle at 1500RPM. I doubt that any dyno operator would spend enough time or know enough to work it out. You may be able to refine it with on road tests if you can get a system with software that you can change on a laptop.eg Microtech. Dynos also only approximate on road performance.
For example I have the unichip and 14CUX. the Unichip has an ignition map, but I do not get as good economy as a 38A. I think my part throttle mixtures are too rich and that the ignition is still probably not advanced enough on part throttle. Mine has been on the dyno three times at a cost of about $800.
Similarly no aftermarket ECU has knock sensing.
Some have o2 feedback so you can get that bit easily.
In short , yes it will run well but do not expect economy/manners like a GEMS.

Regards Philip A

[DeeJay]

Yes. A P38A with a 4.6 will easily get 13-15 litres/100km on highway. I did a trip to Coffs harbour (550 km each way) and averaged 13 litres/100 each way. That's calculated by the onboard computer and by my own calcs - I record all fuel purchases on my PC.

A similar trip at a lower speed in my 3.5 County averaged 19 litres/100 km.



The gearing in a p38 is different as is its weight and aerodynamics to a County so I would hope it gets better economy.


Yep, a P38A is heavier than a County. :) Gearing might be different. The diff ratios are the same at 3.54:1. One would need to look at the transfer case ratios. Also, the P38A is an automatic and the County is a manual. One normally expects manuals to be more fuel efficient. However, that is offset by the better efficiency of fuel injection.



I think the P38A does 2500 rpm at 100 km/h once the torque converter locks up. Until then, it's doing about 2800 rpm. I'll check tomorrow.

Ron
Thanks Ron, thats interesting stuff. I was basing my thoughts on a couple of landies I have been away with- One a stage 1 the other a Series with Rangie running gear, both with 4.6's and all the ECU stuff and they both seemed to use more Fuel. I was also told by the guy at Vitesse, who put the motor in, much the same too, unless I did a lot of towing, then again they turned out a bunch of dills.
The Range Rover club Torque technical tips book says that the 3.9 Vs the 3.5 is much the same for fuel consumption, so it's good to see the 4.6 is more economical. I should start reading some of those LRO International mags I have:p
David

[DMG]

Much good stuff comes from one question, unbelievable. Well I went down to Brunswick Diesels and their conversion kit to the 6.5 looks great and when you look at the quality of the stuff they sell and do I think its good value. Still at about $14k including exhaust and radiator you would expect good things. Some concerns are wieght and cost of the engine plus hidden or not seen costs to complete it. Keeping the engine cool to a nice 85 - 90 degrees in a county or defender seems to be an issue which has not been fully solved as yet.
Still would like a 4BD1 or 2 T. as first choice.and I am checking on a natural 4BD1 which one of the guys knows about.
I was, still am, interested in the Mazda/Ford Trader TF 4 ltr and TM 4.6 ltr. Good power and torque curves with the 4.6 peaking torque at 1700 rpm and the TF at 2100. The Nissan donk I first mentioned is actually a FD42 (not TD42 as I suggested). Dont know to much about it except that it comes from a light truck Atlas or Cabstar. These engines all seem to be compact but I cant find mass data anywhere yet. If any one knows where I might get that info please let me know. Engine places here just refer me to the OEM who dont seem to know where to get the info.
One of the options I am looking at is to O/H the 3.5 and squirt it with a Megasquirt kit on latter EFI manifold. I like petrol V8s, but at the end of the day, towing a camper and trail bike with all the camping exploring brik a brak on board really needs a diesel if I want to keep some fuel money for beer!!!
Has any body heard anything good or bad about the mazda/ford 4 & 4.6 ltr donks. I have had a pretty good run with em in the light truck role as a mechanic. They seem pretty forgiving and while mazda parts are not cheap they are pretty availiable in my past and limited experience.
Looking for a crowd that are good at making one of bellhousings or adaptors now. What ever diesel way I go I will need to fish plate the chassis and weld mounts in it seems.

Dave

[DMG]

Another question fellas, is there any difference between the bellhousing on a 4BD1 to LT85 and LT95. Will the LT85 BH for 4BD1 fit the LT95 for 4BD1 ?

Dave