Diesels not an economic choice?

[p38arover]

Saturday's Cars Guide, in a story about the Ford Territory Turbo quotes Ford's VP product development as saying :


"As an answer to fuel economy, diesel really doesn't do it."

"There are many more costs involved in a diesel and as long as the pricing parity on fuel [petrol against diesel] remains, it will be a problem. In the current climate, the extra cost of a diesel will not result iin it being an economic result for the buyer."

Ron

[Jojo]

That's crap!
Diesel is the economical choice! Should surprise me if only Oz should make an exception.

[p38arover]

I'm not sure where you are Johannes, but in Australia, diesel is generally 10 cents/litre (or more) more expensive than petrol.

Ron

[JDNSW]

Diesel is, as you say, generally about 10c/l more expensive than petrol, or in current terms round here about 6% more expensive. However, while it is not possible to be exact, as there is rarely a direct comparison, the fuel economy of diesels is usually more like 30-50% less than the same vehicle with a petrol engine, so on fuel costs, you are way ahead. The difference in initial cost can be quite significant, but this is usually offset by the difference in depreciation (see for example the current difference in second hand prices between petrol and diesel Discoveries), and remember that depreciation is almost always by far the greatest cost of owning/running a vehicle. There are other advantages to diesel over petrol engines apart from fuel costs, these include longer range, usually longer before engine overhaul, usually greater reliability and lower maintenance, and safer fuel handling and more readily available fuel away from towns.

Having said all the above, by far the cheapest fuel is LPG, but this is a unique Australian position due to an unusual excise situation, which may change at any time at the stroke of a pen (well, it may take an act of parliament). This is offset by the cost of conversion (payback is around a year in most circumstances), often the loss of interior or luggage space, loss of range with the added problem of inability to readily carry extra fuel and the rarity of LPG supply points away from the major centres.

From a purely theoretical point of view, it can be expected that diesels will always win out in the fuel consumption stakes as the energy efficiency of the engine is always greater simply because of the higher compression ratio - which will always be much higher than petrol engines. Whether this translates into cheaper running costs depends on a host of variables, as indicated above. The comments made by the Ford VP may apply to Ford passenger cars in the unique situation of Ford as a company, but I would suggest that he look at his sales of light commercials, where costs are taken into account much more than in car sales, and I suspect he will find that there is a majority of diesels sold. His comments may have more to do with the fact that Ford does not have a suitable diesel that would suit the Falcon and cost any where near the current engines to produce. From their point of view LPG would make a lot more sense.

[George130]

Yep I read this article and interpreted it as the cost of making the diesel would price it right out the market. Don't forget the type of market they are aiming at. A lot of Australia is still not convinced that diesel should be anywhere other than trucks.

[barryj]

Anyone with a petrol/gas series 2 discovery auto getting 800km from 90lts around the city? My Td5 gets this easily. Who woud believe diesels are not economic. What price does it cost to service a petrol compared to an oil burner?

Never forget those guys who write up the magazines are often biased to their advertisers :rolleyes: .

[Bushie]

Saturday's Cars Guide, in a story about the Ford Territory Turbo quotes Ford's VP product development as saying :
Ron


Would this have been the Aussie VP of development? If he was a yank then from their perspective its probably worse given the apparent price of petrol in the states.


Martyn

[Rovernaut]

Anyone with a petrol/gas series 2 discovery auto getting 800km from 90lts around the city? My Td5 gets this easily. Who woud believe diesels are not economic. What price does it cost to service a petrol compared to an oil burner?

Never forget those guys who write up the magazines are often biased to their advertisers :rolleyes: . That equates to 90 litre @$1.30 per litre = $117 per tank
howerver, LPG 90 litres @ 44.5c per litre = $40.04

I use 20 litres per 100 kms on Lpg, so 800 kms range would use 160 litres @44.5CPL = $71.20, THATS A SAVING OF $45.80 FOR THAT DISTANCE COVERED.
SO IS DIESAL STILL CHEAPER IN THE LONG RUN?

[dobbo]

That equates to 90 litre @$1.30 per litre = $117 per tank
howerver, LPG 90 litres @ 44.5c per litre = $40.04

I use 20 litres per 100 kms on Lpg, so 800 kms range would use 160 litres @44.5CPL = $71.20, THATS A SAVING OF $45.80 FOR THAT DISTANCE COVERED.
SO IS DIESAL STILL CHEAPER IN THE LONG RUN?


Find LPG in an average small country town.

Of course the VP of Ford would say a V8 is better (I could bet my left nut he wouldn't be paying for his fuel) All the europian companies developing Diesels must be wrong, same with all the transport industries worldwide, public transport industries, marine industries, agriculture industries, mining industries, Guess what, they must all be making a quid otherwise they wouldn't keep using diesel.

I love the sound of a v8, I've owned one (on LPG) before I got a disco td5. I'd prefer the td5 anyday.

[rick130]

That equates to 90 litre @$1.30 per litre = $117 per tank
howerver, LPG 90 litres @ 44.5c per litre = $40.04

I use 20 litres per 100 kms on Lpg, so 800 kms range would use 160 litres @44.5CPL = $71.20, THATS A SAVING OF $45.80 FOR THAT DISTANCE COVERED.
SO IS DIESAL STILL CHEAPER IN THE LONG RUN?

my old F100 on LPG used on average 24l/100km and the Defender uses 11.5l/100km. Current LPG price here is @ 65c/l and diesel 150c/l (149.9) so the Effie would cost $15.60/100km and the 'fender $17.25/100km.
Currently average @ 650km a week so Effiie would be $10.73 a week cheaper on fuel. Range on the old girl was limited to 250km (60l tank) which was a pain running around the outer western reaches of Sydney/Blue Mts and would be bloody unliveable out here in the sticks. Another tank on the drivers side would have fixxed that easily enough.
Constant towing could be another matter entirely, and I can't really remember how bad the consumption was towing the race car. I think we're in front with the missus' TD Patrol and towing her horses, although we've never really done the sums vs any of our friends with petrol 'cruisers or Patrols, so ????

[Maggot4x4]

LPG here is 68cpl & diesel is 139cpl, reg unleaded 129cpl

When we moved from Sydney to Qld in Oct last year I had the rangie with a 4BD1 (3.9L D), my wife had a SWB Nissan Patrol with a 4.2p on gas

She used about $50 more of LPG than I did in diesel to cover the 1300km. I filled up at at Gosford, and still had fuel left where we got here to run around on for a week, she filled up at Gosford, Port Macquarie, Grafton, Balina, Caboulture & Maryborough.

Both cars were loaded about the same, the only difference was the rangie was towing a 6x4 box trailer.

What would you prefer?

[barryj]

That equates to 90 litre @$1.30 per litre = $117 per tank
howerver, LPG 90 litres @ 44.5c per litre = $40.04

I use 20 litres per 100 kms on Lpg, so 800 kms range would use 160 litres @44.5CPL = $71.20, THATS A SAVING OF $45.80 FOR THAT DISTANCE COVERED.
SO IS DIESAL STILL CHEAPER IN THE LONG RUN?

Fair comment. Another problem is that rego for a v8 is far higher than that of a 4 or 5 cyl diesel. Also try and buy gas out in the country and even on the Islands around Brissie.



I once borrowed a petrol/gas nissan and took it to Tewah beach which is a stones throw from Noosa. The guy I borrowed it from ran the gas out just before he swapped my vehicle for his on the north side of the car ferry. We had no gas for a week and the thing chewed petrol like it was free! He still raved at the ecomomy of gas, no good if you cannot get any though.

One man's petrol, gas or diesel is another man's poison.

[p38arover]

Fair comment. Another problem is that rego for a v8 is far higher than that of a 4 or 5 cyl diesel.

Not in NSW.

I think the issue is the total cost - you can't just think of fuel, it's maintenance as well.

On some brands, e.g., Toymota, the cost of fuel filters and oil filters for diesels is astronomical. The LR TDi engines use the same oil filters as the V8 and a $5 Ryco Z10 will suit.

Also on some brands the price differential between a diesel and a petrol, again Toymota is a good example, can be really significant. It wasn't for Tdi LRs.

Certainly resale is better on a diesel because people only look at fuel costs. An excellent example of price differential is the 3.5 V8 County vs the 3.9 Isuzu County.

Another issue may be dealer maintenance. How many people these days maintain their own cars? The cost of a service by a dealer can be ridiculously high.

Ron
Ron

Ron

[Ace]

I think ford are looking at the whole picture. In terms of the extra cost of making the car, therefore the premium you pay at the dealer for getting the petrol engine, for example the TDi Golf my boss bought set him back nearly 40k, but he gets 5L/100km, he could have gotten the equivalent petrol for 5-8k less which is a considerable amount of fuel. When you look at the extra interest you pay on the loan, the fact that 5-8k would make up the extra $30/week cost for fuel you would need to do some serious Km's a year to get that saving back.

But in Australia we look at things differently. We are happier quite often to pay an extra $50 a week on a car loan to get the diesel to save $30 a week at the bowser, which is what ford are trying to get across. Whilst diesel is dearer than petrol a diesel engine uses less fuel which makes a diesel look like the economic choice but when you weigh up all the costs its not the choice.

Take a V8 Disco for example. You can get Disco II V8 bloody cheap, sometimes as much as 10k cheaper than a TD5, that 10k would add $50 a week to a loan repayment easily, not to mention the 8 odd percent interest on top of that. Now weigh up the fact that unleaded is 10c/L cheaper than diesel buying the V8 looks like the economic choice. But people dont think about it that way. We think yes but its costing me alot more per week to fill the V8 but they dont look at all the other costs of owning a TD5 and add them all up. Matt

[Pedro_The_Swift]

as a follow on to Ron and ACE,,,

if you gather the posts from our Tech forum,,
the Diesels suffer MANY more published problems than the V8,, all more expensive,,

it seems the people that buy diesels are looking short term,, OMG !!! look at the pump price!!! Lets buy a diesel!!:ohyes:

add TEN THOUSAND dollars to the purchase price.

and ask yourselves,,

how long will you own that diesel?

now YOU do the math.

10,000 in fuel,, WHOOOO!!!!

bring it on!!!

:p:p

[dobbo]

I think ford are looking at the whole picture. In terms of the extra cost of making the car, therefore the premium you pay at the dealer for getting the petrol engine, for example the TDi Golf my boss bought set him back nearly 40k, but he gets 5L/100km, he could have gotten the equivalent petrol for 5-8k less which is a considerable amount of fuel. When you look at the extra interest you pay on the loan, the fact that 5-8k would make up the extra $30/week cost for fuel you would need to do some serious Km's a year to get that saving back.

But in Australia we look at things differently. We are happier quite often to pay an extra $50 a week on a car loan to get the diesel to save $30 a week at the bowser, which is what ford are trying to get across. Whilst diesel is dearer than petrol a diesel engine uses less fuel which makes a diesel look like the economic choice but when you weigh up all the costs its not the choice.

Take a V8 Disco for example. You can get Disco II V8 bloody cheap, sometimes as much as 10k cheaper than a TD5, that 10k would add $50 a week to a loan repayment easily, not to mention the 8 odd percent interest on top of that. Now weigh up the fact that unleaded is 10c/L cheaper than diesel buying the V8 looks like the economic choice. But people dont think about it that way. We think yes but its costing me alot more per week to fill the V8 but they dont look at all the other costs of owning a TD5 and add them all up. Matt


I agree with you but you also have to take into consideration what you intend to do with the vehicle average km per week, how much towing, 4wding and look at the fact that the price of diesel does not fluctuate as much as petrol and it is readily available almost anywhere, the engine last a lot longer (if maintained) also think about how long you intend to keep the vehicle for. If I was to change vehicles every 3 years (like the vp of Ford would like us to), didn't tow much, and only did short around town stints a v8 would be in consideration. I intend keeping my vehicle for at least another 8 years (I don't think the v8 would last that long without a rebuild)

[Pedro_The_Swift]

I agree with you but you also have to take into consideration what you intend to do with the vehicle average km per week, how much towing, 4wding and look at the fact that the price of diesel does not fluctuate as much as petrol and it is readily available almost anywhere, the engine last a lot longer (if maintained) also think about how long you intend to keep the vehicle for. If I was to change vehicles every 3 years (like the vp of Ford would like us to), didn't tow much, and only did short around town stints a v8 would be in consideration. I intend keeping my vehicle for at least another 8 years (I don't think the v8 would last that long without a rebuild)


still have my D1-- 8 years, MY 200,000 kays
runs like a train,,
wanna drag?
wanna tow something?

(and mines a youngster on this forum-- it just seems our V8 owners dont brag about klms:p)

[dobbo]

A drag race with a trailor attached now that would be interesting.

By the way I like your new location

[Pedro_The_Swift]

A drag race with a trailor attached now that would be interesting.

By the way I like your new location

The whole world needs some "real life" testing,,,



and thanks dobbo,,

ya gotta laugh,,,:D:D

[Ace]

I agree with you but you also have to take into consideration what you intend to do with the vehicle average km per week, how much towing, 4wding and look at the fact that the price of diesel does not fluctuate as much as petrol and it is readily available almost anywhere, the engine last a lot longer (if maintained) also think about how long you intend to keep the vehicle for. If I was to change vehicles every 3 years (like the vp of Ford would like us to), didn't tow much, and only did short around town stints a v8 would be in consideration. I intend keeping my vehicle for at least another 8 years (I don't think the v8 would last that long without a rebuild)

I agree, and thats why i bought the TDi, but I also thought of things like not having problems with water when off road with electrics and things like that aswell. No i wouldnt sell the disco for quids but i and having bought a V8 instead i dont think i would be able to afford to run it, i sometimes struggle running the disco as things have been tight, but i have been thinking of buying a rangie when we move to use as a weekend toy. Matt

[matbor]

Check this out, I know it's Toyo :vampire: , but the operating costs, one for a diesel and one petrol (I think from memory !) :
http://www.racv.com.au/wps/wcm/connect/Internet/Primary/my+car/advice+%26+information/car+operating+costs/large+SUV/

[Ralf_the_RR]

LPG here is 68cpl & diesel is 139cpl, reg unleaded 129cpl

When we moved from Sydney to Qld in Oct last year I had the rangie with a 4BD1 (3.9L D), my wife had a SWB Nissan Patrol with a 4.2p on gas

She used about $50 more of LPG than I did in diesel to cover the 1300km. I filled up at at Gosford, and still had fuel left where we got here to run around on for a week, she filled up at Gosford, Port Macquarie, Grafton, Balina, Caboulture & Maryborough.

Both cars were loaded about the same, the only difference was the rangie was towing a 6x4 box trailer.

What would you prefer?

Something doesn't add up here.

Now I don't know the specifics of each vehicle, so I'm going to have to assume some stuff.
Let's assume the diesel Rangie gets 10L/100km, and the Patrol gets 20L/100km.

LPG was about 40-45c/L (let's call it 50c) in Oct last year.
I'm guessing that diesel was about $1.20

1300km equates to 130L diesel for the Rangie and 260L for the Patrol.
So 130L diesel @ $1.20=$156
and 260L LPG @ $0.50=$130

For the Patrol to use $50 more than the Rangie in LPG ($200) at $0.50/L would mean it used about 400L.
That equates to about 30L/100km.
That's shocking! I don't get that when 4WDing (actually maybe I do - not sure).

I know I have made a lot of assumtions/guesses, but I can't be that far out.

Now I know why I don't own a Patrol on gas.:)
My 4.4 POS gets 20L/100km on LPG which suits my wallet nicely, and that's what I prefer.:D

[Maggot4x4]

Something doesn't add up here.

Now I don't know the specifics of each vehicle, so I'm going to have to assume some stuff.
Let's assume the diesel Rangie gets 10L/100km, and the Patrol gets 20L/100km.

LPG was about 40-45c/L (let's call it 50c) in Oct last year.
I'm guessing that diesel was about $1.20

1300km equates to 130L diesel for the Rangie and 260L for the Patrol.
So 130L diesel @ $1.20=$156
and 260L LPG @ $0.50=$130

For the Patrol to use $50 more than the Rangie in LPG ($200) at $0.50/L would mean it used about 400L.
That equates to about 30L/100km.
That's shocking! I don't get that when 4WDing (actually maybe I do - not sure).

I know I have made a lot of assumtions/guesses, but I can't be that far out.

Now I know why I don't own a Patrol on gas.:)
My 4.4 POS gets 20L/100km on LPG which suits my wallet nicely, and that's what I prefer.:D

The Rangie gets 7.5 - 8l per 100km, the Patrol got 250-300km out of 90L of gas.

Sorry I can't remember the fuel prices, I remember Balina being about 60cpl.

Whats worse is my old 100series Landcruiser 4500 petrol used to get 550 - 600 km out of 130L on the open road.

Hey Pedro_The_Swift, how about you and I have a Tug-O-War? :p

[incisor]

as a follow on to Ron and ACE,,,

if you gather the posts from our Tech forum,,
the Diesels suffer MANY more published problems than the V8,, all more expensive,,

it seems the people that buy diesels are looking short term,, OMG !!! look at the pump price!!! Lets buy a diesel!!:ohyes:

add TEN THOUSAND dollars to the purchase price.

and ask yourselves,,

how long will you own that diesel?

now YOU do the math.

10,000 in fuel,, WHOOOO!!!!

bring it on!!!

:p:p

hmmm, you need to open the other eye pedro and stop glossing over the bits you dont want to read.... :spudnikconfounded:

whats days are you home btw, i have a job in maryborough this week or next.... :unsure:

[Cruiser]

The Rangie gets 7.5 - 8l per 100km, the Patrol got 250-300km out of 90L of gas.

Sorry I can't remember the fuel prices, I remember Balina being about 60cpl.

Whats worse is my old 100series Landcruiser 4500 petrol used to get 550 - 600 km out of 130L on the open road.

Hey Pedro_The_Swift, how about you and I have a Tug-O-War? :p

Are you shore that the rangie got 7.5 -8L per 100km towing the trailer?
Defenders at the best get around 10L per 100km
My petrol 80 crusier gets 830km on 130L on a trip 15.6L per 100 It's an auto 2in lift 33in tyres.

[feral]

Heh......I think we all have missed the point of the thread. Its about total costs between a V8 v's Diesel.

How's this for a comparison. The next door neighbour to the olds have just bought a Discovery Series II, 1999 V8 for $11,000. It only has 85,000 k's on it. That was going to be the trade in price so his mate floged it off to him.


Makes us all want to cry:cry:


Cheers.

[barryj]

I took a mate up to Fraser Island a few years ago. He has a v8 county and could not believe that I did not have to buy fuel on Fraser. He gets 400kms out of an 80lt tank, I used to get 800km out of an 80lt tank in the '97 Defender. How can you guys brag about the ecomomy of a petrol v8?

My mate had another tank put in just to get around. Work out the cost of the second tank and add that to the ecomomy of a v8 :twisted: . One thing I am jealous about, his v8 sounds great!

[Pedro_The_Swift]

see above.

stop thinking fuel costs.

TCO.

:)

[matbor]

Here u go average costs of petrol / diesel / LPG for last month for each state :

http://motormouth.com.au/newsletters/0606.htm

[def90]

How's this for a comparison. The next door neighbour to the olds have just bought a Discovery Series II, 1999 V8 for $11,000. It only has 85,000 k's on it. That was going to be the trade in price so his mate floged it off to him.


I am considering buying a V8 Series 2 disco as this is so much car for the price. Seen a very nice 1 owner 2000 model V8 for 15K, could probably get it for less absed on the above comment.... I dont do huge K's per year [which is another factor I suppose on cost of ownership] so could tolerate some economy issues in addition to my TD5 DEF90.....

[dobbo]

How's this for a comparison. The next door neighbour to the olds have just bought a Discovery Series II, 1999 V8 for $11,000. It only has 85,000 k's on it. That was going to be the trade in price so his mate floged it off to him.


I am considering buying a V8 Series 2 disco as this is so much car for the price. Seen a very nice 1 owner 2000 model V8 for 15K, could probably get it for less absed on the above comment.... I dont do huge K's per year [which is another factor I suppose on cost of ownership] so could tolerate some economy issues in addition to my TD5 DEF90.....

Exactly a V8 is a good second car but not as a daily driver cross family mobile. I'd love another v8 but cannot justify the day to day running costs

[barryj]

Here u go average costs of petrol / diesel / LPG for last month for each state :

http://motormouth.com.au/newsletters/0606.htm

I guess by the above link we should all buy a v8 and move to sunny Queensland :ohyes: !

[4X4V8]

Originally Posted by def90
How's this for a comparison. The next door neighbour to the olds have just bought a Discovery Series II, 1999 V8 for $11,000. It only has 85,000 k's on it. That was going to be the trade in price so his mate floged it off to him.



They're not worth much these days. To buy one for 11k you'd have to be incredibly lucky, though, more like $14k upwards from a private seller.
I bought a D2 V8. I did the sums and at 5000km a year as a second car, it's a matter of a few hundred bucks more in fuel, for a car I could afford to buy with my savings. I could have borrowed $5000 extra to get a Td5, to save $200 a year in fuel...

[Maggot4x4]

Are you shore that the rangie got 7.5 -8L per 100km towing the trailer?


Well it's 1300km trip door to door, the tank is 130l, I put about 115L in it over a week after we got here in which I had done other running around.

So no, I'm not 100% sure but that is the normal sort of figure it does.

[BigT]

lpg prices at the moment in Alice springs is closer to $0. 80 cents a litre,
diesel is $1.48 :)

[Pedro_The_Swift]

I guess by the above link we should all buy a v8 and move to sunny Queensland :ohyes:" smilieid="270" class="inlineimg" /> !


Welcome!

Welcome One and All!:D

[hiline]

Welcome!

Welcome One and All!:D


except someone like me.............:angel: :angel: ;)

you wouldn't get me there it rains to much:D

[Maggot4x4]

Welcome!

Welcome One and All!:D
Well how about that tug-o-war Pedro?

[Pedro_The_Swift]

sure sure,,
just let alert the press first,,












and the ambos,
careflight,
lifeline,
RACQ,
and my next of kin,

[djam1]

I buy Lpg in Alice Springs every week and pay 65.9 at Caltex on the north Stuart highway??

[Ralf_the_RR]

the Patrol got 250-300km out of 90L of gas.
OK, at best (300km/90L) equates to 30L/100km.
At worst (250km/90L) equates to 36L/100km.
That's sh1thouse.

I hope you guys have gotten rid of it, or at least gave it a tune up.

[Maggot4x4]

OK, at best (300km/90L) equates to 30L/100km.
At worst (250km/90L) equates to 36L/100km.
That's sh1thouse.

I hope you guys have gotten rid of it, or at least gave it a tune up.

Yep, sold it.

[Cruiser]

Well it's 1300km trip door to door, the tank is 130l, I put about 115L in it over a week after we got here in which I had done other running around.

So no, I'm not 100% sure but that is the normal sort of figure it does.

I'am Impressed or should I say depressed ( My 80 gets 15.5L per 100 at very best)

[dobbo]

I'am Impressed or should I say depressed ( My 80 gets 15.5L per 100 at very best)


Well bite the bullet and buy a TD5 landy. Is the 80 a diesel or a petrol

[Cruiser]

Well bite the bullet and buy a TD5 landy. Is the 80 a diesel or a petrol

Petrol. 4x4 must be auto (I'am getting old and lazy)

[dobbo]

Aren't most of the disco's sold auto's nowadays?

[George130]

Petrol. 4x4 must be auto (I'am getting old and lazy)

Get a Fender and convert it:D

[JPI]

Diesel is, as you say, generally about 10c/l more expensive than petrol, or in current terms round here about 6% more expensive. However, while it is not possible to be exact, as there is rarely a direct comparison, the fuel economy of diesels is usually more like 30-50% less than the same vehicle with a petrol engine, so on fuel costs, you are way ahead. The difference in initial cost can be quite significant, but this is usually offset by the difference in depreciation (see for example the current difference in second hand prices between petrol and diesel Discoveries), and remember that depreciation is almost always by far the greatest cost of owning/running a vehicle. There are other advantages to diesel over petrol engines apart from fuel costs, these include longer range, usually longer before engine overhaul, usually greater reliability and lower maintenance, and safer fuel handling and more readily available fuel away from towns.

Having said all the above, by far the cheapest fuel is LPG, but this is a unique Australian position due to an unusual excise situation, which may change at any time at the stroke of a pen (well, it may take an act of parliament). This is offset by the cost of conversion (payback is around a year in most circumstances), often the loss of interior or luggage space, loss of range with the added problem of inability to readily carry extra fuel and the rarity of LPG supply points away from the major centres.

From a purely theoretical point of view, it can be expected that diesels will always win out in the fuel consumption stakes as the energy efficiency of the engine is always greater simply because of the higher compression ratio - which will always be much higher than petrol engines. Whether this translates into cheaper running costs depends on a host of variables, as indicated above. The comments made by the Ford VP may apply to Ford passenger cars in the unique situation of Ford as a company, but I would suggest that he look at his sales of light commercials, where costs are taken into account much more than in car sales, and I suspect he will find that there is a majority of diesels sold. His comments may have more to do with the fact that Ford does not have a suitable diesel that would suit the Falcon and cost any where near the current engines to produce. From their point of view LPG would make a lot more sense.


Lets not forget that the 2.7 litre TdV6 engine in the Disco 3 is made by Ford in their Dagenham plant in east London. That would do very nicely in Ford's Territory, and don't forget the new 3.6 litre TdV8 just announced. I would be very surprised if Ford Australia doesn't use one of these powerplants in a Territory...

[matbor]

or the v12 diesel that Jag (I think !) is developing !!


just watched "beyond tomorrow" and they where talking about BioGAS, wonder why it hasn't been developed much here ??

Matt.

[JDNSW]

Lets not forget that the 2.7 litre TdV6 engine in the Disco 3 is made by Ford in their Dagenham plant in east London. That would do very nicely in Ford's Territory, and don't forget the new 3.6 litre TdV8 just announced. I would be very surprised if Ford Australia doesn't use one of these powerplants in a Territory...

I'll bet these engines would cost Ford Australia a LOT more than their current petrol engines!
John

[mark2]

Dont forget the cost of rebuilding a diesel as well. Should something go wrong (it only takes a blown hose) = big $$$$$$ - as a general statement it costs much more than a petrol motor to rebuild. Oil changes (except maybe TD5) are more frequent and generally consume more oil and diesel oil is more expensive than petrol oil etc etc

Also in a whole of life costing should consider km each is capable of doing before a rebuild is necessary, I dont want to start an argument here but IMO V8's generally do more km than Rover diesels. Toyota/Nissan diesels IMHO last longer but you pay more up front compared to the petrol option for the privelege.

[Cruiser]

If Ford put a diesel motor in a Territory how many of you LR owners would buy one?

George130 : Lurch tells me the same thing.(a lot) !

[JDNSW]

Dont forget the cost of rebuilding a diesel as well. Should something go wrong (it only takes a blown hose) = big $$$$$$ - as a general statement it costs much more than a petrol motor to rebuild. Oil changes (except maybe TD5) are more frequent and generally consume more oil and diesel oil is more expensive than petrol oil etc etc

Also in a whole of life costing should consider km each is capable of doing before a rebuild is necessary, I dont want to start an argument here but IMO V8's generally do more km than Rover diesels. Toyota/Nissan diesels IMHO last longer but you pay more up front compared to the petrol option for the privelege.

Cost of rebuilding - I doubt if you can generalise as the costs depend largely on what the manufacturer charges for the parts, which bears no relationship to whether the engine is petrol or diesel. I can't comment on whether Rover builds more durable petrol or diesel engines, but the thread is more general anyway. A blown hose is likely to be very expensive with any engine. You are right about diesels generally having a larger oil capacity than petrol engines, but for similar quality oil the cost is difference is not large - and the major cost of a service will usually be labour not oil.

You can introduce all sorts of additional points such as the above, but diesels will still be ahead on fuel costs compared to petrol (but not LPG), which is what most people seem to worry most about, and in most cases will be ahead on depreciation - which is the major running cost, but which most people do not seem to worry about. But the overall difference may well be quite small, and very difficult to quantify, especially in advance.
John

[mrapocalypse]

At least with a V8 you get the choice of ULP or Gas. If you sacrifice cargo spce you get both fuel ranges and in the end a 50% saving on the gas tank.

Roughly like this.

Petrol 90L @ $1.30 = $117.00 = 500km
Gas 80l @ $0.66 = $52.80 =350

$169 gets you 850k.

How does that shape up??

Also you can fill up with gas whenever you can or run on petrol when you can't find a bowser. I would be pretty reluctant to get rid of my main fuel tank in the V8.

I also prefer v8's. They just go!

[incisor]

300tdi 760k costs $92 :P

[mrapocalypse]

Now lets do 0 to 100k!

That's going to get me some heat!
:o

[Wortho]

Just filled up the disco(300tdi) on 1000k's cost $142 for 92litres , bloody good economy but god i hate the price of fuel lately.
Last service cost me $8 for oil filter, $25 fuel filter, $50 oil(10lt penrite), $20 air filter. Thats not to bad can't see the petrol being to much cheaper exept for fuel filter.

[Cruiser]

Well it's 1300km trip door to door, the tank is 130l, I put about 115L in it over a week after we got here in which I had done other running around.

So no, I'm not 100% sure but that is the normal sort of figure it does.

Mropocalypse look at Maggot4x4 fuel figures.
I'am still depressed.

[EchiDna]

you guys left out Isuzu motors...
and biodiesel - DIY fuel for a bit of time and effort!

[incisor]

Now lets do 0 to 100k!

That's going to get me some heat!
:o

they dont go to bad at all with a tweak.... quite surprising actually....

look at it this way, while your in getting your next load of fuel the rattlers will take the lead and then some :P

[Pedro_The_Swift]

look at it this way, while your in getting your next load of fuel the rattlers will take the lead and then some :P

*bites tongue hard:angel:

[DiscoTDI]

This might be the case for land rovers, but I have a 2004 diesel crusier ute for work and it gets 5.5klm per litre, my V8 Disco gets 6 klm per litre. Give me a V8 petrol any day:p

[incisor]

*bites tongue hard:angel:
feel free to bite the end off it mate!

also feel free to say what you have to say.. dont go hiding behind them dentures......

[PhilipA]

I suppose all you guys have heard that the RACV has listed the most expensive 4WD to own is a Landcruiser diesel.

If all the logic were followed shouldn't it be a Lancruiser Petrol that is the most expensive?

Pity that the Government has removed the 38C rebate on commercial use of Biodiesel. Double dipping as they had already given 38c to the producers. The mines immediately cancelled the biggest contract. So much for a cost advantage. Bio diesel now has a bleak future in Australia as it cannot compete with dino fuel on cost. Darned economic rationalists think that the economy is most efficient with no subsidies.
Regards Philip A

[Michael2]

Okay, LPG is cheaper to run than Diesel around town. On a recent 6,000km trip from Melb through the Simpson, and onto Alice Springs, Uluru etc my SIII had a fuel bill of $1267 and the 200Tdi Defender had a fuel bill of $1170. I used 280 litres for 1000 km from Mungerannie to Alice through the Simpson, and he used 130. (one fuel tank for him, a fuel tank, lpg tanks & 8 jerrycans for me). Around town I get 10km per $1 on the SIII and it will cost me about $1.40 to travel the same distance in my Defender (I get it tomorrow - I'm excited:D :D :D :D , but I digress).

But I don't think this is what the Ford guy had in mind. I heard an interview (probably on ABC Radio) a few weeks ago, where the argument was diesels vs new generation petrols.

The argument went something like this.

Petrol produces 'x' grams of green house gases per litre.
Diesel produces 'x'+'y' grams per litre, but delivers better milage, hence less pollutant per mile.
New generation petrols will deliver better milage and less pollutants, and will hence deliver fewer pullutants per mile than diesel does.
These figures have a big impact on European legislators who engineer society through tax (on fuels, cars, engine sizes etc).

Given the above, diesel technology doesn't compare as favourably to petrol for a manufacturer.

[JDNSW]

Yes - but new generation diesel engines with similar improvements to those in the petrol engines will step ahead of the petrol engines again. As I said above, you cannot get away from the fact that diesels have, and always will have, an effective compression ratio around twice that of petrol engines, which means that using similar technology they will be ahead on economy and emissions provided that similar efforts are put in to these in design. A recent article in Scientific American, I think I read it, on a diesel hybrid SUV made this point.
John

[Michael2]

I agree JD, but the constraints on such progress are the corporate mindset and the political social engineering factors.

I read recently (last few years) that the next generation of military vehicles will be diesel hybrids. The author made the point that (then) diesel was costing the US Military $2+ p/l landed in Afgahnistan for the thirsty Hummers, they needed better economy / range.

About that time I saw an article on the www, which I haven't been able to locate since, but it was about a university in the UK that took a standard Tdi Defender and replaced the flywheel & starter motor with an electric motor / generator that had the ability to act as a starter too. They successfully ran the Defender as a hybrid without much modification from standard. The research was MOD sponsored I think. - Now how would that be as an after market accessory:)

[PhilipA]

Re technology.
Have a look at this
http://www.popsci.com/popsci/automotivetech/502459855fd27010vgnvcm1000004eecbccdrcrd.html

New tech has great potential with petrol engines also.
Regards Philip A

[feral]

I have an excell spreadsheet which works out the difference between petrol v's LPG. It gives you heaps of information if you are interested in doing the conversion.

My only problem is that it will not upload to the site. :imwithstupid:



Any ideas...

[dobbo]

I've only had the one duel fuel car an old ford v8 P.O.S. It had a 302 and a 80l LPG tank (usable 60L)the tank and system was only a few years old and the engine in good tune. However, in the winter mornings and evening it was very fuel efficient for an old v8, as soon as the outside temperature got over 15 degrees more fuel was used 20 degrees even more 30+ c, Forget it switch to petrol. I have two diesels one, a TD5 very fuel efficient, the other a 2.25 in my old series, the original motor how many km's is anyones guess, yet it's still a lot cheaper to run than the LPG regardless of outside ambient temperature.

Could this be a reason you cannot get LPG in the outback? (it's to hot out there for it to be feasible)

[matbor]

I have an excell spreadsheet which works out the difference between petrol v's LPG. It gives you heaps of information if you are interested in doing the conversion.

My only problem is that it will not upload to the site. :imwithstupid:



Any ideas...


is it this spreadsheet, maybe :) ???

http://disco.bordignons.net/misc/gas%20conversion.xls

Matt.

[RoverOne]

I agree, and thats why i bought the TDi, but I also thought of things like not having problems with water when off road with electrics and things like that aswell. No i wouldnt sell the disco for quids but i and having bought a V8 instead i dont think i would be able to afford to run it, i sometimes struggle running the disco as things have been tight, but i have been thinking of buying a rangie when we move to use as a weekend toy. Matt

Hi Matt,
Anytime I'll lend you my Rangie V8 for fuel cost test run, you'll laugh when you wondered why you thought of having a Rangie V8. Wondering why you bought it for just that bit of wheel spin & lovelly burble, doesn't equate for fill up value.
Cheaper they are initially to buy, even at $1000 for a 2 door bush pig with grunt, you still have to fill it and pay & only average 400 odd per tank, my Defender doubles the distance travelled in my Rangie for the same cost.

The only thing I can promise is a h**d on for accelleration & V8 burble as it reaches 4000 revs in second gear at just on 100kph odd.

I won't be getting rid of either though, the Defender is the best tourer all round, after all that my V8 is my daily user & log hauling work truck around the farm, its bl**dy great fun, but at a cost you can't dwell on.

:cool:

[rangieman]

well my old rangie with the 4.4 and with petrol injection had lpg as well yes it was cheap to fill up but i would be struggling to do over 240 ks on 60 litres lpg plus it only had a 40 litre petrol tank

my main reason for going diesel was (a) i wanted one (b) iwanted defender and there was no option with petrol in the defender

and mainly once in the bush the diesel is better on fuel economy

i can now go away for a weekend fill up in the same spot as i did in my rangie drive thru the bush for 4 days then drive home then drive to work on the same fuel for 2 weeks with out filling up:cool:

to do the same in my rangie i would fill both tanks there is a 100 litres then id take 2 jerry cans 40 litres and id have to fill up on the way home just to get home and thats for a 4 day weekend , not to mention if i wanted to go to work for 2 weeks that is another 3 tanks of gas 180 litres:twisted:



by the way you cant buy automotive lpg in the vic highcountry :p but you can buy petrol and diesel at the odd servo you find

oh and the defender has a 110 litre tank:D

[DeeJay]

I've only had the one duel fuel car an old ford v8 P.O.S. It had a 302 and a 80l LPG tank (usable 60L)the tank and system was only a few years old and the engine in good tune. However, in the winter mornings and evening it was very fuel efficient for an old v8, as soon as the outside temperature got over 15 degrees more fuel was used 20 degrees even more 30+ c, Forget it switch to petrol. I have two diesels one, a TD5 very fuel efficient, the other a 2.25 in my old series, the original motor how many km's is anyones guess, yet it's still a lot cheaper to run than the LPG regardless of outside ambient temperature.

Could this be a reason you cannot get LPG in the outback? (it's to hot out there for it to be feasible)
Dobbo,
I have worked in the LPG industry for nearly 20 years. In fact you can get LPG (autogas) in a lot of outback locations. More than that, most gold mines have large tanks for smelting, ameneties blocks, kitchens etc.
The pressure inside a cylinder or tank will increase with temperature, propane will flow in Alpine applications to the hottest parts of the world- no worries. If there is a product loss, it turns to vapour and dissapates.
In fact we had a tanker rollover recently and the biggest hassle was the 150 litres of diesel lost. We had to excavate the soil, get it treated 100's of k's away and return it- true:eek:
David

[George130]

LPG in cold climates is interesting. My wifes car can be a bugger to start and you also get a bit worried when you fill an 80litre usable capacity tank with 90 litres and it wasn't totaly empty to start with:eek:
I also used to find that after filling the tank in winter it would go for 1.5km and die. Would start fairly quick afterwoods. LPG is cheap and if you have a turbo engine that is tuned for strait LPG you get much better performance than on petrol.
I only stoped using that car as my daily driver as we needed another car and the ford already had 300,000km on it so it was give it to my wife and lease another vehicle or drive it into the ground.

[DeeJay]

[quote=George130]LPG in cold climates is interesting. My wifes car can be a bugger to start and you also get a bit worried when you fill an 80litre usable capacity tank with 90 litres and it wasn't totaly empty to start with:eek:

Its a bit of a mis-conception that one.Your tank will always take 80 litres give or take a couple of litres, you have only been charged for 90 litres.

LPG contracts in the cold ( although not normally more that 5 -8%) so you are getting more bang for the buck as it were. There are temperature probes in a bowser that then charge for that extra energy content. I used to drive a tanker and fill a very busy taxi depot. The drivers ( who ran out on gas and arrived on petrol) were convinced that thier 72 litre tank could not take 76 and they were being ripped off. They shut up in the summer when they filled up @ 68 litres:) .
Regards,
David