Opening Power Windows Without Power

[101RRS]

As some will know a young guy drowned in the NSW floods last week. He accidentally drove into flood waters and was not able to exit the vehicle and drowned. This got me thinking about how to open power windows when there is no power.

Now there are flood management issues associated with how the brand new Camry Hire car ended up in the water and that is not part of this discussion, however it would seem that the doors (I an guessing here - due to water pressure) could not be opened but with the vehicle in the water the power windows apparently could not be opened.

I know from personal experience that in most cases submerged batteries can still supply power and in fresh water many electrical functions in a car will still work, however in this case it seems that everything went dead and the guy who was a good swimmer could not get the doors or windows open.

So I wonder why cars do not have a "failsafe" means of opening windows without power from the inside. Yes I suppose all cars could come with those little hammers to break the glass but these can be of limited use if the glass has aftermark tinting and in an emergency could be hard to locate and use.

It would seem that ADRs are silent on this aspect of car safety.

I cannot see why something like the traditional old style manual handle could not be incorporated into each door that pulls out for use when required.

Any other ideas or suggestions?

Garry

[350RRC]

There used to be a great $2 warehouse in the Mall in Geelong that had all sorts of stuff for sale including weird tools.

At one time they had 100's of 'emergency escape devices' in stock. These were essentially a solid cylindrical piece of steel about 120mm long with a 10mm long spike on one end.

They sold a few over time, then the entire stock was removed from the shelf.

The Mall was somewhat of a crime hotspot and I assume some people had realised that 'emergency escape devices' could also be used as a rapid entry device and the cops were onto it.

Years ago there were a number of incidents under the Dudley St Bridge in Melbourne, where it floods really quickly, where euro cars would conk out driving through the puddle and the drivers couldn't get out as the water rose to roof height or more. (electric windows, sunroof)

Seems nothing has changed.

DL

[Redback]

I reckon he didn't try to open the window with the button, probably was panicking that much never even thought about it.

[p38arover]

I used to have one of those windpw breaking hammers in my P38A. I haven't fitted one to the L322 as I'm not sure where I could drill safely without damaging something vital.

I do wonder if one could kick a door window out of the frame. On earlier Subarus e.g., our '2005 Forester but not our current Forester, that would be possible as they had frameless windows (above the waistline).

[pop058]

As some will know a young guy drowned in the NSW floods last week. He accidentally drove into flood waters and was not able to exit the vehicle and drowned. This got me thinking about how to open power windows when there is no power.

Now there are flood management issues associated with how the brand new Camry Hire car ended up in the water and that is not part of this discussion, however it would seem that the doors (I an guessing here - due to water pressure) could not be opened but with the vehicle in the water the power windows apparently could not be opened.

I know from personal experience that in most cases submerged batteries can still supply power and in fresh water many electrical functions in a car will still work, however in this case it seems that everything went dead and the guy who was a good swimmer could not get the doors or windows open.

So I wonder why cars do not have a "failsafe" means of opening windows without power from the inside. Yes I suppose all cars could come with those little hammers to break the glass but these can be of limited use if the glass has aftermark tinting and in an emergency could be hard to locate and use.

It would seem that ADRs are silent on this aspect of car safety.

I cannot see why something like the traditional old style manual handle could not be incorporated into each door that pulls out for use when required.

Any other ideas or suggestions?

Garry

Would not have to be on all doors, maybe just the drivers ??

[101RRS]

I reckon he didn't try to open the window with the button, probably was panicking that much never even thought about it.

Maybe but initial reports from the rescue authorities was that there was no power to the windows with the car in the water. He was on the phone to 000 for just under a minute before the line dropped out so I would expect he would have been told to try the windows.

[Tombie]

Just need to wait until water inside almost equals water outside and open the door (in theory)

Otherwise a glass break / rescue tool is worth every cent.

Tinting alters the equation a lot!

[350RRC]

Maybe but initial reports from the rescue authorities was that there was no power to the windows with the car in the water. He was on the phone to 000 for just under a minute before the line dropped out so I would expect he would have been told to try the windows.

I thought he was talking to 000 for 40 minutes before the line went dead. That's how it was reported on ABC radio.

DL

[101RRS]

Just need to wait until water inside almost equals water outside and open the door (in theory)

Otherwise a glass break / rescue tool is worth every cent.

All difficult to do if you are in a hire car you probably have never driven before - if it had the rescue tool, try finding it as the car is sinking - I watched an episode of Myth Busters where they found the inside of the car has to be completely full of water before you can open the doors - panic would have well and truly set in by then.

I have completed a number of underwater escape sessions from aircraft rigs which were done in a pool with safety divers and that was frightening enough - let alone having just driven into cold muddy water with the car filling up and wondering if the door could open when the car is full and know you would be history if it didn't. It would be tough finding the glass breaking hammer in a car you have never been in - no the door should have a pull out handle to allow windows to be opened when there is no power - or maybe a water proof system with its own power in the door that allows windows to open.

I get frustrated in having to turn the ignition on to adjust the windows let alone if I was drowning and the windows cannot be opened.

[350RRC]

The reason I mentioned the Dudley St incidents is because they go back 30 odd years and nothing seems to have changed.

The site is only 2 blocks from the CBD, so there were always people around to provide outside assistance but it was still very difficult from memory.

The one I remember most was where they got the guy out by smashing the sunroof. He was interviewed and described how terrifying it was. Also vowed never to buy a car with power everything ever again.

The car in this latest tragic one was found in 6m of water. The last bit of air inside could well have been in the boot.

DL

[Tombie]

All difficult to do if you are in a hire car you probably have never driven before - if it had the rescue tool, try finding it as the car is sinking - I watched an episode of Myth Busters where they found the inside of the car has to be completely full of water before you can open the doors - panic would have well and truly set in by then.

I have completed a number of underwater escape sessions from aircraft rigs which were done in a pool with safety divers and that was frightening enough - let alone having just driven into cold muddy water with the car filling up and wondering if the door could open when the car is full and know you would be history if it didn't. It would be tough finding the glass breaking hammer in a car you have never been in - no the door should have a pull out handle to allow windows to be opened when there is no power - or maybe a water proof system with its own power in the door that allows windows to open.

I get frustrated in having to turn the ignition on to adjust the windows let alone if I was drowning and the windows cannot be opened.

I’ve done those training exercises as well. Eye openers, and of course the key point is to not panic.

Problem is that the glass will remain pinned against the frame from water pressure once submerged. Even with a manual winder - and then you have to remain focused and keep winding as it floods the vehicle.

In a hire car it’s only a matter of informing during handover and making sure it’s mounted prominently eg. Console.

I’ve always left windows down when doing water crossings for this very reason.

[101RRS]

I thought he was talking to 000 for 40 minutes before the line went dead. That's how it was reported on ABC radio.

DL

Yes that was the initial report but on review it was found to only be about a minute.

[Tombie]

Yes that was the initial report but on review it was found to only be about a minute.

Line would go dead as soon as his phone got wet

[Old Farang]

Very sad, and must be one hell of a way to go.

But it is not possible to provide for every contingency; whether it be in a car or any other situation humans manage to get themselves into. I too have done many HUET training courses, in fact I have a log book with a record of them amongst other training courses involved in working offshore.
With the HUET training you are not only underwater, but also turned upside down!

The last helicopter that I owned had emergency escape handles next to the door that were just a simple "D" handle connected with a steel wire to the hinge pins on the doors. A quick pull on the handle and the door would fall off. No idea if they worked underwater, and had no desire to find out!

With a car fire; what happens if you are trapped inside after an accident and the doors are deformed and will not open? Should we legislate to have fixed fire suppressant systems?

The only sure way to avoid these things is to stay in bed all day, and hope that there is not an earthquake, or the building catches on fire.

[PhilipA]

They are all over the net.
Shop for Best Seatbelt Cutter & Glass Breaker Online (fire-one.com.au) (https://fire-one.com.au/products/glass-breaker-seatbelt-cutter?variant=31527205109821&currency=AUD&utm_medium=product_sync&utm_source=google&utm_content=sag_organic&utm_campaign=sag_organic&www.fire-one.com.au&utm_campaign=gs-2019-09-09&utm_source=google&utm_medium=smart_campaign&gclid=CjwKCAjwr_uCBhAFEiwAX8YJgRqwgivhbRhqRgDxcmYP inR8AgaQq2XsnvPplMlg4O0U8sLBpF2wMhoCotwQAvD_BwE)
Regards PhilipA

Escape Tool 2 Pack for Car, Auto Emergency Safety Hammer with Car Window Glass Breaker and Seat Belt Cutter: Amazon.com.au: Automotive (https://www.amazon.com.au/Escape-Emergency-Safety-Hammer-Breaker/dp/B07RSSVPK9/ref=asc_df_B07RSSVPK9/'tag=googleshopdsk-22&linkCode=df0&hvadid=354427127903&hvpos=&hvnetw=g&hvrand=4377844961903838149&hvpone=&hvptwo=&hvqmt=&hvdev=c&hvdvcmdl=&hvlocint=&hvlocphy=9072184&hvtargid=pla-781355218491&psc=1)

[1950landy]

My 1984 BMW E30 has plastic plugs in the door trims that can be easily removed to wind down the windows manually when the electric ones fail ( which is quite often & no the switches are not made by Lukas) the down side is the winder is kept in the boot lid tool kit.[bighmmm] Not much good if the car is under water.

[Roverlord off road spares]

I used to have one of those windpw breaking hammers in my P38A. I haven't fitted one to the L322 as I'm not sure where I could drill safely without damaging something vital.

I do wonder if one could kick a door window out of the frame. On earlier Subarus e.g., our '2005 Forester but not our current Forester, that would be possible as they had frameless windows (above the waistline).
I bought one of these from a disability shop ,as a aid to get in and out of cars, it hooks on the the door striker plate. it can be used as a glass breaker and seat belt cutter.
Handybar For Car - Ergonomic Car Handle for Elderly or Injured | Aidacare (https://www.aidacare.com.au/products/daily-living-aids/assisted-living/handy-bars-for-car)
169849

[1950landy]

I bought one of these from a disability shop ,as a aid to get in and out of cars, it hooks on the the door sticker. it can be used as a glass breaker and seat belt cutter.
Handybar For Car - Ergonomic Car Handle for Elderly or Injured | Aidacare (https://www.aidacare.com.au/products/daily-living-aids/assisted-living/handy-bars-for-car)
169849
My wife asked me to buy one of these to help her get in & out of the car & I did as I was told . Have no idea what she did with it , have not seen it since I gave it to her, probably in a draw some were with all the other things she thinks are a good idea & never uses.[bighmmm]

[windsock]

I’ve always left windows down when doing water crossings for this very reason.

This. Growing up in a small forestry town with the main road out traversing several small rivers prone to flash flooding we had this drilled into us as kids. We got about in a 1959 Bedford TJ J1 truck in those days and it had traversed a few streams in flood in its time in emergency settings.

[101RRS]

Unfortunately the guy who died did not know the water was there when he crashed into it and had no chance to put the windows down before hand.

[RANDLOVER]

15 things you may not know about your Land Rover Discovery 3 - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=cQ0zStW7tW8)

About 21 mins in they talk about the power windows "pinch protect" and how you can override it, not sure if this works for down as well, and you might just strip the mechanism, the "pinch protect" torque/pressure sensing might lead people to think there is no power when the car is under water.