Child Resetraints in Defender

[Michael2]

I read something about this somewhere on the forum recently, but can't find it, so I'll start a new thread.

I'm buying a Defender Wagon and read something about an anchor bar for child restraints. Can someone give me more info or send a pic?

Thanks in advance.

Michael2

[abaddonxi]

Here (http://www.aulro.com/afvb/showthread.php't=27515), here (http://www.aulro.com/afvb/showthread.php't=27781), and here (http://www.aulro.com/afvb/showthread.php't=22548).

In a 110 you go to a child restraint fitting station, contact RTA or equivalent. For about $250 or so they will bolt a 'crab' bar - white steel bar that crosses behind the seats - to the steel bulkheads.

There are no anchor points built into Defenders, putting your own anchor points into the aluminium skin isn't really a good idea.

Most child restraint fitting stations don't know what a Defender is, so best you know where and what before you go in there.

PM me if you want more info.

Cheers,
Simon

[Bushie]

This is what they look like,

https://www.aulro.com/afvb/

(mine now sold - if you find older links)


Martyn

[bluetongue]

I was lucky enough to buy mine second-hand from Bushie.

If you have a 110 I'd post something in the markets 'wanted' section... sneakypete had one for sale a month or so ago. Once kids grow up there's no need for it anymore and can easily be moved from one vehicle to another.

... Scott

[Michael2]

Thanks guys, I'm due to pick up the Defender on Friday, I'll probably place a wanted advert on the site over the w'end.

I have a book somewhere on engineering vehicle modifications (specs etc), so I'll see if there's something I can make up. I would have thought a 1/2" right angle steel bracket bolted to the floor with a corresponding bracket under the car would exceed any specs for an anchor point. That would eliminate flex & distortion, would spread the force over a wide area and provide a point for multiple bracket attachments. Zinc plated to prevent corrosion ofcourse. That's just off the top of my head, I'm still to have a good look at the layout.

Photos or links to other designs would be helpful. It seems there are a lot of us out there with Defender family cars. When I got the RR, before kids came along, I had 3 anchor points fitted to the roof above the tailgate (by Ritters). Just as well I did that in the days of disposable income.

[Michael2]

Here's the info I got from the engineering book:

For child restraints, anchorages must consist of a 5/16 UNC nut welded on to a 50 x 25mm plate riveted (or welded) to underside of floor pan along longitudanal axis of each rearmost seating position.

seat belts must use a 7/16 unf bolt

Seat anchorages must not be excessive thickness so as to risk punching through in the event of an accident. 2-3x thickness of floorpan ensures flex and leads to a much stronger design.

Given this, my previous idea of using a heavier plate must be revised. I'll talk to the Vicroads people too when I transfer my rego and see whether there may be new restrictions / regulations. But combining the criteria for a seat anchorage with a child restraint should provide a sound solution.

To be investigated further.

[bluetongue]

Just be careful... if I understand you correctly, you are thinking about bolting an anchor point to the floor. As far as I understand (at least in NSW) this is a big no-no....

The anchor points must be "higher" than the top of the seat (i.e. backrest)

... all the restraint-fitting people I spoke to confirmed this
... and I saw something on the web stating the same

I can't find the link to the stuff I saw on the web... If I find I'll post it.

But basically, if you take a look at the photo that Bushie posted, you can see that the anchor points themselves are in a higher (vertical) position than the top of the back seat.... he's got metal "straps" holding the anchor-bar up to the correct level.

The reason for this is as follows.....
- assume you bolt to the floor and re-inforce it... anchor point is going nowhere!
- but if you have a head-on accident, authorities reckon that the seat will more-or-less "crush" into itself
- especially the defender seat... it's not really all that sound "vertically"
- but from authorities point-of-view, even if the defender rear seat is good enough to sustain the "crushing".... it has never been crash-tested
- therefore no stress can be placed on the seat structure

Bolting into the side-bars (like you can see in Bushies photo) is ok because that's a main structual member... you just need to either fit something toward the rear of the vehicle or get it up high somehow.

... Scott

[Michael2]

Thanks Scott, will look into it some more. Hopefully I'll just buy something made for the job.

[bluetongue]

No worries... I still can't find it, but this link more-or-less hints at what I was saying... could be different in vic

http://www.kidsafehunter.com/factsheets/CHILD%20RESTRAINTS.pdf

[JDNSW]

Just be careful... if I understand you correctly, you are thinking about bolting an anchor point to the floor. As far as I understand (at least in NSW) this is a big no-no....

The anchor points must be "higher" than the top of the seat (i.e. backrest)

... all the restraint-fitting people I spoke to confirmed this
... and I saw something on the web stating the same

I can't find the link to the stuff I saw on the web... If I find I'll post it.

But basically, if you take a look at the photo that Bushie posted, you can see that the anchor points themselves are in a higher (vertical) position than the top of the back seat.... he's got metal "straps" holding the anchor-bar up to the correct level.

The reason for this is as follows.....
- assume you bolt to the floor and re-inforce it... anchor point is going nowhere!
- but if you have a head-on accident, authorities reckon that the seat will more-or-less "crush" into itself
- especially the defender seat... it's not really all that sound "vertically"
- but from authorities point-of-view, even if the defender rear seat is good enough to sustain the "crushing".... it has never been crash-tested
- therefore no stress can be placed on the seat structure

Bolting into the side-bars (like you can see in Bushies photo) is ok because that's a main structual member... you just need to either fit something toward the rear of the vehicle or get it up high somehow.

... Scott

Yes, pretty accurate from what I know - basically you cannot have any download on the seat structure in an accident as it has not been tested or structurally analysed (and as you suggest, would probably not be strong enough anyway - although we are not talking about an enormous load; I don't know what the breaking strain on a 5/16 bolt is, but it is not all that high, and some deformation of the seat frame would be acceptable). I seem to remember that the line from the anchorage to the top of the seat can be below horizontal, but not much.

At least in NSW the anchorage needs to be fitted by an authorised child restraint fitting station. Cost me $600 for work I regard as poorly engineered and very poorly carried out. But that was seven years ago.
John

[Michael2]

okay, here's a link that seems to confirm what's been said, and it repeals previous standards. I haven't read it in detail, but I won't be securing them to the floor.

http://www.comlaw.gov.au/ComLaw/Legislation/LegislativeInstrument1.nsf/0/7682534496EF20FDCA2570D5001E9CDD/$file/ADR%2034-01%20ES%20%5BFINAL%20FRLI%5D.pdf

[abaddonxi]

Anchor point should be no more than 10cm from top of seat. Got this on a sheet from the engineer who helped me out with the bar for the 130.

Cheers
Simon

[Rat]

Someone in the for sale forum is selling a restraint bar for $40. He is also selling a roof rack. Look for an ad for a roof rack and it's in there, i think.
If you want a new one with a compliance plate, call your nearest LR dealer and ask them who they use. Mine was about $300, but I made them throw it in for free when I bought the car!
Rat.

[Michael2]

Too late - looks like the one in this forum is sold:( .

I was talking to someone today who told me they made some (Vic) that go over the back door against the headlining. That's where the ones in my RR are. I'll have a look at them next week and see how compatible they'll be with the cargo barrier.

My options are still open, if anyone has other ideas or a bar for sale. Will keep you posted on these rear mounted restraints.

[bluetongue]

Someone in the for sale forum is selling a restraint bar for $40. He is also selling a roof rack. Look for an ad for a roof rack and it's in there, i think.
If you want a new one with a compliance plate, call your nearest LR dealer and ask them who they use. Mine was about $300, but I made them throw it in for free when I bought the car!
Rat.


I think it's sneakypete up in newcastle


... Scott