HMS Glorious, Ardent & Acasta

[V8Ian]

Still shrouded in secrecy, lost reports and lies after more than eighty years, courageous and determined sailors are denied their due recognition and respect.
No doubt this article will interest Bob, Des, James and a few more.

— HMS Glorious – The cover up of Churchill’s Operation Paul (https://www.hmsglorious.com/name-this-page-ben/2019/3/10/churchill-operation-paul-and-the-sinking-of-hms-glorious-ardent-amp-acasta#comments-5c85181924a694a6a02bf7b1=)

[NavyDiver]

Arrogant old men? The Captains and crew of the two destroyers knew they had speed to get away. They knew there guns had 1/2 the range and were almost unable to injure the two battle cruisers- Brave Men plus. RIP

The other crusty old men who ignored the intelligence data were also guilty in my view. Took 78 year to get a Victoria Cross for Teddy Sheean. The facts of his bravery were well known from the moment of his death.

We had the decency to name a ship after him

HMAS Sheean is a much brighter outcome

https://www.navy.gov.au/sites/default/files/styles/ship_image/public/ships/NIUW8065726_050317_093_018.jpg?itok=VoYpXfAY

[4bee]

Still shrouded in secrecy, lost reports and lies after more than eighty years, courageous and determined sailors are denied their due recognition and respect.
No doubt this article will interest Bob, Des, James and a few more.

— HMS Glorious – The cover up of Churchill’s Operation Paul (https://www.hmsglorious.com/name-this-page-ben/2019/3/10/churchill-operation-paul-and-the-sinking-of-hms-glorious-ardent-amp-acasta#comments-5c85181924a694a6a02bf7b1=)



Thank you Ian, a most interesting read, but it hit me that Bo-Jo's handling of the Covid-19 situation was a re-run of this operation but without ships & on dry land.


The similarities are really amazing, ie, left hand v right hand, Lack of communication & supplies/equipment & more but these were the points that struck me.


Have never read about the "Norwegian Campaign" until now. Of course I knew there was one, but certainly not the details so thanks again for opening my eyes. Well not so much you you understand, but the incompetent idiots/buffoons that made it possible.

Sad that so many men were lost because of poor leadership, direction & egos.

Can't help but wonder how many more fiascos are out there from all sources waiting to be told one day & not in a 100 years time.

The relatives of all those men deserve to be told the truth, NOW.

[V8Ian]

Arrogant old men? The Captains and crew of the two destroyers knew they had speed to get away. They knew there guns had 1/2 the range and were almost unable to injure the two battle cruisers- Brave Men plus. RIP

The other crusty old men who ignored the intelligence data were also guilty in my view. Took 78 year to get a Victoria Cross for Teddy Sheean. The facts of his bravery were well known from the moment of his death.

We had the decency to name a ship after him

HMAS Sheean is a much brighter outcome

https://www.navy.gov.au/sites/default/files/styles/ship_image/public/ships/NIUW8065726_050317_093_018.jpg?itok=VoYpXfAY
Arrogant, egotistical and uncaring, but best left for a different sub-forum.

[NavyDiver]

Happy to bring Teddy Front and Centre, as he should be, at any time Ian[thumbsupbig]

The SUB form was a low blow[biggrin][biggrin][biggrin][biggrin][biggrin] As a Diver and Sonar type loved it[thumbsupbig]

[4bee]

Arrogant, egotistical and uncaring, but best left for a different sub-forum.


To an extent one can possibly understand their thinking ie. The olde guys were WW1 leftovers who saw & thought things differently.

Dardanelles/Gallipoli for an instance. A piece of **** they said, no sweat they said, & probably "No Worries" ,until it all went pear shaped & then the Blame Game started.


Games of Chess with people's lives.

[V8Ian]

To an extent one can possibly understand their thinking ie. The olde guys were WW1 leftovers who saw & thought things differently.

Dardanelles/Gallipoli for an instance. A piece of **** they said, no sweat they said, & probably "No Worries" ,until it all went pear shaped & then the Blame Game started.


Games of Chess with people's lives.
A generous excuse indeed, Mr bee.

[4bee]

A generous excuse indeed, Mr bee.




No, I don't think that is it, Ian.. We weren't there &/or part of the decision making or had Winnie (AKA Bo JO) changing their minds & Britain had only exited from The Great War (who thought that one up, I thought all Wars of that magnitude were all "Great" ones but not great as in fabulous let's do it again Great.) so yes it may be "Generous" as you said. Or not.[bighmmm]

Different times, different solutions.


From what I have read, Winnie himself looked forward to a bit of War on a Saturday Arvo with the lads. After Golf, of course.[bigrolf]

[cripesamighty]

Unfortunately the whole Dardanelles campaign was so badly executed, leadership and planning wise, that the US Marine Corps used it as the basis for what NOT to do, when sorting out their marine/amphibious (combined operations) doctrine in the 1920’s. I think I actually have the document saved somewhere.

[4bee]

Unfortunately the whole Dardanelles campaign was so badly executed, leadership and planning wise, that the US Marine Corp used it as the basis for what NOT to do, when sorting out their marine/amphibious (combined operations) doctrine in the 1920’s. I think I actually have the document saved somewhere.


The ANZACS went ashore in Oar powered wooden boats not armoured craft (ie, AMTRAKS/LVT etc with 50 Cals mounted) & that accounted for a heap of casualties from the off. They were towed to within a reasonable distance (?) from the beach & let go. From then on they were on their own. In the '20s they should have had much time to carry out Post Mortems of what went wrong.


Bad preparation, wrong beaches & I suppose many other things that we may have never been privy to.

[cripesamighty]

The Gallipoli landings were the first instance I read where a commentator remarked that the soldiers were 'Lions led by Donkeys'. There are many books, web links and documentaries out there that get stuck into the abysmal planning and poor higher leadership involved, even by 1915 standards! Mind you, it was also the first place where a full combined-arms amphibious landing was attempted on a large scale. Lots of lessons were learned.

Marine Corps Amphibious Doctrine - The Gallipoli Connection (https://www.globalsecurity.org/military/library/report/1990/CKL.htm)

https://www.athensjournals.gr/history/2020-6-4-2-Cook.pdf

[Pedro_The_Swift]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gV25q60Shv8

[NavyDiver]

The ANZACS went ashore in Oar powered wooden boats not armoured craft (ie, AMTRAKS/LVT etc with 50 Cals mounted) & that accounted for a heap of casualties from the off. They were towed to within a reasonable distance (?) from the beach & let go. From then on they were on their own. In the '20s they should have had much time to carry out Post Mortems of what went wrong.


Bad preparation, wrong beaches & I suppose many other things that we may have never been privy to.

Anzac day in the 80s did allow me time with a few Gallipoli vets. They were and we are very proud of their efforts. Not the gooses that muck parts up.
Those gents I shared some time with were more than happy to share the honest side of the record. All were upset or angry to many of their mates died needlessly. The Fog of War is a ongoing and historical well known fact. "uncertainty in situational awareness experienced by participants in military operations"

Court Martial did and should occur for incompetence and arrogance needlessly killing people. Study of history shows we keep repeating the same mistakes. Usually arrogant old men then and now.[bigwhistle]

Not suggesting none of us make mistakes of course. Very happy not to be in Command myself

[4bee]

Anzac day in the 80s did allow me time with a few Gallipoli vets. They were and we are very proud of their efforts. Not the gooses that muck parts up.
Those gents I shared some time with were more than happy to share the honest side of the record. All were upset or angry to many of their mates died needlessly. The Fog of War is a ongoing and historical well known fact. "uncertainty in situational awareness experienced by participants in military operations"

Court Martial did and should occur for incompetence and arrogance needlessly killing people. Study of history shows we keep repeating the same mistakes. Usually arrogant old men then and now.[bigwhistle]

Not suggesting none of us make mistakes of course. Very happy not to be in Command myself

I don't wish to start a WW1 Remake here without Mel Gibson, but from what I can glean things only started to get ahead for the lads only after Australian Commanders could plan & lead the Australian contingent, away from that of British control. Of course by then it was all too late sadly.

History recalls the names of those Generals & Field Commanders.

EDIT. Christ, who in their right mind would pit a Frontal Assault & Advancing in Line Abreast in the age of Machine Guns? It still happened when they went to France & thousands were killed. It wasn't Waterloo you know.

Apparently they walked towards the enemy. Me, I'd be sprinting like ****ery.

[4bee]

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=gV25q60Shv8


Thanks Pedro, for posting that. Fascinating stuff with more & probably more accurate facts.


What a bloody cockup, eh? All Commanders should be issued with Crystal Balls.



EDIT. HMS Glory visited here on her way back to the UK after the Korean War together with a T class Sub (HMS Truculent. Sunk in collision with a Swedish tanker post war in the Thames Estuary) & a Mine layer HMS Manxman HMS Manxman (M70) - Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Manxman_(M70))

HMS Truculent (P315) | Military Wiki | Fandom (https://military.wikia.org/wiki/HMS_Truculent_(P315))


Was getting to be a popular name one way or another.

[bob10]

To an extent one can possibly understand their thinking ie. The olde guys were WW1 leftovers who saw & thought things differently.

Dardanelles/Gallipoli for an instance. A piece of **** they said, no sweat they said, & probably "No Worries" ,until it all went pear shaped & then the Blame Game started.


Games of Chess with people's lives.

Churchill always said the Admiralty caused the failure of the Gallipoli campaign, by attempting to break thru the straits using old dreadnaughts, whose straight trajectory main armament were next to useless for infantry support. The Turks, under advice from the Germans, used mobile field howitzers which attacked the Battleships thinly armoured decks from a near vertical angle. I have read where a minefield of only 18 mines was responsible for most of the sinking of French and British ships. This attempt at forcing the straits alerted the Turks to the danger of a landing on the Gallipoli Peninsula, and reinforcements were sent . The Australians did indeed drift North , to the wrong landing place. Mustapha Kamal, the commander of the Turks at Gaba Tepe, sent his 57th Regiment to push the Aussies off the Sari Bair ridge, with the order " I'm ordering you not to attack, but to die ". The Gallipoli Association has an extensive record of the whole campaign. Sometimes we forget there were many more English and French than Australians involved.

From the Gallipoli Association;

Naval Travails - The Gallipoli Association (gallipoli-association.org) (https://www.gallipoli-association.org/campaign/naval-travails/)

Preparations;

Preparations - The Gallipoli Association (gallipoli-association.org) (https://www.gallipoli-association.org/campaign/preparations/)

The landings ;

The Landings - The Gallipoli Association (gallipoli-association.org) (https://www.gallipoli-association.org/campaign/the-landings/)

[4bee]

Churchill always said the Admiralty caused the failure of the Gallipoli campaign, by attempting to break thru the straits using old dreadnaughts, whose straight trajectory main armament were next to useless for infantry support. The Turks, under advice from the Germans, used mobile field howitzers which attacked the Battleships thinly armoured decks from a near vertical angle. I have read where a minefield of only 18 mines was responsible for most of the sinking of French and British ships. This attempt at forcing the straits alerted the Turks to the danger of a landing on the Gallipoli Peninsula, and reinforcements were sent . The Australians did indeed drift North , to the wrong landing place. Mustapha Kamal, the commander of the Turks at Gaba Tepe, sent his 57th Regiment to push the Aussies off the Sari Bair ridge, with the order " I'm ordering you not to attack, but to die ". The Gallipoli Association has an extensive record of the whole campaign. Sometimes we forget there were many more English and French than Australians involved.

From the Gallipoli Association;

Naval Travails - The Gallipoli Association (gallipoli-association.org) (https://www.gallipoli-association.org/campaign/naval-travails/)

Preparations;

Preparations - The Gallipoli Association (gallipoli-association.org) (https://www.gallipoli-association.org/campaign/preparations/)

The landings ;

The Landings - The Gallipoli Association (gallipoli-association.org) (https://www.gallipoli-association.org/campaign/the-landings/)

The Admiralty probably believed "Bigger is Best" but not necessarily so from a dropping shell.

Who would even think of arguing the toss with a 12"- 16" Shell from a Battleship?[bigsad]

Not many, but the Turks obviously did knowing that the fall of shot was only a consideration if the ships were many miles away from the targets & ships could not elevate their guns but I bet HMS made a terrible hole in the ground which in turn would have provided some protection.



EDIT.

Would have been a bit of a mess for a while, bob, Brits & Aussies going forward, the French heading back out. Quickly.[bigrolf]

[4bee]

Thanks Pedro, for posting that. Fascinating stuff with more & probably more accurate facts.


What a bloody cockup, eh? All Commanders should be issued with Crystal Balls.



EDIT. HMS Glory visited here on her way back to the UK after the Korean War together with a T class Sub & a Minelayer.


Was getting to be a popular name one way or another.


HMS Glory (R62) - Wikipedia The image on this website will expand up 3x if you are interested. (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/HMS_Glory_(R62))

[bob10]

The Admiralty probably believed "Bigger is Best" but not necessarily so from a dropping shell.

Who would even think of arguing the toss with a 12"- 16" Shell from a Battleship?[bigsad]

Not many, but the Turks obviously did knowing that the fall of shot was only a consideration if the ships were many miles away from the targets & ships could not elevate their guns but I bet HMS made a terrible hole in the ground which in turn would have provided some protection.



EDIT.

Would have been a bit of a mess for a while, bob, Brits & Aussies going forward, the French heading back out. Quickly.[bigrolf]

Everyone knocks the French. Truth is , their fight with the German's at Verdun was as hard as any in WW1, and saved Paris. The casualties on both sides were horrific. The French have also been credited as saving most of the BEF in WW2 by holding off the Germans long enough to evacuate Dunkirk. I'll PM you the stories when I find them again.

[4bee]

Everyone knocks the French. Truth is , their fight with the German's at Verdun was as hard as any in WW1, and saved Paris. The casualties on both sides were horrific. The French have also been credited as saving most of the BEF in WW2 by holding off the Germans long enough to evacuate Dunkirk. I'll PM you the stories when I find them again.

That may be bob but FiL claims the French treated BEF Members atrociously. He was there.

[bob10]

That may be bob but FiL claims the French treated BEF Members atrociously. He was there.

PM sent. Every one has a story to tell. War brings out the worst in men.

[bob10]

Here is another video description of the action. This highlights the courageous action of the two destroyers , in the best traditions of the RN.

The Sinking of HMS Glorious: An Avoidable Tragedy? - Bing video (https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=glorious+acasta+and+ardent+you+tube&docid=608002987921735617&mid=D1DE00D1C3A69061809DD1DE00D1C3A69061809D&view=detail&FORM=VIRE)

Now following is the action of HMAS Yarra, When we escorted Melbourne to the Queens Silver jubilee, we were in company with HMNZS Canterbury. When we parted company on the way home, Canterbury sent this signal.

UNCLASSIFIED.

MSOQ32
P 051502Z SEP 77
FM HMNZS Canterbury
TO HMAS Brisbane
BT
UNCLAS
DIG JAD
Spithead deployment final

1. We are very sorry to leave you at sea without the opportunity for a farewell bash in harbour. All onboard have have thoroughly enjoyed your company and friendships made will last for a long time.
It has been obvious that between us the the gap of the Tasman did not exist and that personnel of both ships regarded themselves as one.

2. Good sailing and good luck for the future. VIVE LES ESCORTEURS.
BI
DIST. FULL
MSO.032 PL TOR..0427Z MC 05/09/ 77.

I make this point for those three words " VIVE LES ESCORTEURS. "

VIVE indeed, in the case of YARRA.

HMAS Yarra's Last Stand - Bing video (https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=the+sinking+of+hmas+yarra%2c+ww2+you+tube&docid=607988135935093572&mid=410438ED20EC2C0BDF98410438ED20EC2C0BDF98&view=detail&FORM=VIRE)

[bob10]

This is more about YARRA, and her service in the Middle East, before being sent to the Japanese war. What is interesting is her part in the Soviet/ RN attack on Korremshar, Iran. A little known episode in RAN history. I knew about this from an old mate at Sandgate who was a diver in the RAN and took part in the attack. anyway, YARRA.

The Sinking of the HMAS Yarra (U77) - Bing video (https://www.bing.com/videos/search?q=the+sinking+of+hmas+yarra%2c+ww2+you+tube&&view=detail&mid=11715A7BD0AF0BDE295C11715A7BD0AF0BDE295C&rvsmid=8D5EBF1CDF71392D7B678D5EBF1CDF71392D7B67&FORM=VDRVRV)

The ship my mate was on was the Kanimbla. Here's the story of when the British and Soviets invaded IRAN, a bit long winded, but interesting.; EDIT I've replaced the link with the original article . with photo's and you can turn off ads.

In 1941, British and Soviet Troops Invaded Iran | War Is Boring (https://warisboring.com/in-1941-british-and-soviet-troops-invaded-iran/)

[bob10]

Still shrouded in secrecy, lost reports and lies after more than eighty years, courageous and determined sailors are denied their due recognition and respect.
No doubt this article will interest Bob, Des, James and a few more.

— HMS Glorious – The cover up of Churchill’s Operation Paul (https://www.hmsglorious.com/name-this-page-ben/2019/3/10/churchill-operation-paul-and-the-sinking-of-hms-glorious-ardent-amp-acasta#comments-5c85181924a694a6a02bf7b1=)

I found this. Interviews with survivors, they tell a sorry tale. EDIT Squadronleader -" Burn our precious Hurricanes?" after being told he had two choices. Burn the Hurricanes, or land them on Glorious, something that had not been done before, with fast fighters. And no arrester wires. Priceless.

Secret History HMS Glorious - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=1yAahSUiXt4)