FUEL REFINERIES GET A $2BILLION LIFE EXTENSION

[ramblingboy42]

after killing off our previous refineries our govt has granted a $2billion lifeline to our 2 existing refineries.

correct me if I'm wrong but these 2 refineries are limited in their supply and either can only supply limited local supplies to Melbourne and Brisbane metropolitan areas.

the rest of Australia is supplied by imports by sea , I'm led to believe mostly from Singapore , even our defence dept relies on imported fuel supply.

maybe when the 2bill runs out we will ready for electric.....is that their plan?

[Roverlord off road spares]

after killing off our previous refineries our govt has granted a $2billion lifeline to our 2 existing refineries.

correct me if I'm wrong but these 2 refineries are limited in their supply and either can only supply limited local supplies to Melbourne and Brisbane metropolitan areas.

the rest of Australia is supplied by imports by sea , I'm led to believe mostly from Singapore , even our defence dept relies on imported fuel supply.

maybe when the 2bill runs out we will ready for electric.....is that their plan?

imagine our defence dept running out of fuel, imagine an all electric defence force. a charge of electric tanks only to stop and have to wait hours to recharge then continue the offense

[rick130]

maybe when the 2bill runs out we will ready for electric.....is that their plan?

Plan??!!

Everything by most all in charge is reactive. [emoji849]

[loanrangie]

Its a bloody disgrace that we are dictated by OPEC and that we import a lot from Singapore and other places.

[DiscoMick]

Our fuel security issues will continue until our transport shifts from imported oil to locally generated electricity, preferably renewable. Being independent improves national security.

[Homestar]

Can’t see the difference between importing the raw product or the finished product to be honest. If they aren’t competitive then they should close. There’s no fuel security either way - having them or not makes no difference.

Should save the $2B and use it for something useful rather than keep a handful of people employed and making rich multinationals even richer.

[V8Ian]

It's not quite that simple Gav. Ideally we are supposed to have 90 days reserve fuel, stored within the country, for security in case of war. I don't recall the details, mandate or law, or what types of fuels.
Should anything prevent fuel ships reaching our shores at present, we would be out of fuel in under a fortnight.
Should anything nation want to invade Australia, the most expedient method would be to bomb the Singaporean refineries. Within two weeks our Armed Forces would be all but crippled.
We have plenty of capped light crude wells in this country. Light crude is not the ideal raw material, but would do should we be denied imported crude, but retain the ability to refine fuel.
Interestingly, there is only one small, independent refinery close to the crude source, in this country, it refines mainly naphtha, a solvent that can be used as a petrol substitute.

[Grumbles]

I believe it is our federal government doing a panic behind the scenes in response to our armed forces chief and our defense minister both publicly declaring that armed conflict with China is coming. Wouldn't really matter though. A few well directed missiles would deliver a knock out blow.

I guess then that armed forces Chief General Campbell might have to reconsider his position of knocking out the Warrior "Esprit de cour" culture of our front line soldiers.

[cuppabillytea]

after killing off our previous refineries our govt has granted a $2billion lifeline to our 2 existing refineries.

correct me if I'm wrong but these 2 refineries are limited in their supply and either can only supply limited local supplies to Melbourne and Brisbane metropolitan areas.

the rest of Australia is supplied by imports by sea , I'm led to believe mostly from Singapore , even our defence dept relies on imported fuel supply.

maybe when the 2bill runs out we will ready for electric.....is that their plan?
How did the Government kill off fuel refineries?

[cuppabillytea]

We no longer have a merchant Navy of any useful capacity. Without that we are stuffed anyway. All this talk of fuel security and the sudden dire need to have those things hitherto neglected id just the start of Murdoch's campaign to have as all too scared to change our Government. Hint: Looming election. This post will probably be pulled for being too political but I didn't start the thread.

[Rextheute]

Isn’t it also due to the requirement to have the 10ppm sulphuric levels - and the refinery’s cannot current achieve this .
may / not move more transitions to EV ?
our infrastructure may not support this - that and pricing of vehicles .

[V8Ian]

Isn’t it also due to the requirement to have the 10ppm sulphuric levels - and the refinery’s cannot current achieve this .
may / not move more transitions to EV ?
our infrastructure may not support this - that and pricing of vehicles .
I was involved with bringing BP Bulwer up to standard for ultra low sulphur diesel production, that is the only diesel produced in Australia.

[PhilipA]

Can’t see the difference between importing the raw product or the finished product to be honest.

Australia exports a heap of crude oil for refining overseas.

It was 16.91 thousand MEGALITRES in 2020

• Australia: export volume of crude oil 2020 | Statista (https://www.statista.com/statistics/674836/australia-export-volume-of-crude-oil/)

Australia exported in 2020 $8.49 Billion of crude oil and $49.73 Billion of Gas.

trade-investment-glance-2020.pdf (dfat.gov.au) (https://www.dfat.gov.au/sites/default/files/trade-investment-glance-2020.pdf)

Imports of refined petroleum were $25billion in 2020.

So what is the todo about?

Apart from the obvious worry about fuel security , two way trade is a healthy thing. None of these stats include coal which is $69.52 Billion.
Pity that facts seem to overcome emotion.
Regards PhilipA

[Homestar]

It's not quite that simple Gav. Ideally we are supposed to have 90 days reserve fuel, stored within the country, for security in case of war. I don't recall the details, mandate or law, or what types of fuels.
Should anything prevent fuel ships reaching our shores at present, we would be out of fuel in under a fortnight.
Should anything nation want to invade Australia, the most expedient method would be to bomb the Singaporean refineries. Within two weeks our Armed Forces would be all but crippled.
We have plenty of capped light crude wells in this country. Light crude is not the ideal raw material, but would do should we be denied imported crude, but retain the ability to refine fuel.
Interestingly, there is only one small, independent refinery close to the crude source, in this country, it refines mainly naphtha, a solvent that can be used as a petrol substitute.

What’s the difference in storing crude or the finished product? Why not just bring in the fuel ready to go?

[V8Ian]

What’s the difference in storing crude or the finished product? Why not just bring in the fuel ready to go?
If we have no means to refine, onshore and the supply line is broken, we're on our knees.
Should the supply of crude be interrupted, we can refine our own crude, as long as we have operational refineries.

[ramblingboy42]

When I was working out in the SW Qld Gasfields, I was told that after extensive tests with multiple filters and gradually reducing the filters , the whole vehicle fleet based in Jackson and Ballera were running on straight light crude , true distillate , unrefined with no apparent problem or concern from Toyota and other manufacturers.

I don't know if Neill Mansell ran it any of his trucks though.

I don't know if any of you have first hand knowledge of Australia's oil reserves , but we actually have plenty in the ground , much of it capped.

[Homestar]

If we have no means to refine, onshore and the supply line is broken, we're on our knees.
Should the supply of crude be interrupted, we can refine our own crude, as long as we have operational refineries.

We don't have any crude left in Aus. Currently importing 100% of our fuel crude...

[Dorian]

Our fuel security issues will continue until our transport shifts from imported oil to locally generated electricity, preferably renewable. Being independent improves national security.

We could also mandate E20 or E25 that would help our fuel security, environment, manufacturing and primary producers in one hit, but that would be just too hard and logical to do. More pointedly it wouldn't get any votes.


Can’t see the difference between importing the raw product or the finished product to be honest. If they aren’t competitive then they should close. There’s no fuel security either way - having them or not makes no difference..

As said by others, we do have crude available here, just not much and most of that is not the best for making fuel from. But apart from that you can get crude from a lot more places that you can get refined fuel from.


Isn’t it also due to the requirement to have the 10ppm sulphuric levels - and the refinery’s cannot current achieve this .

Ampol in Brisbane can make 10ppm, it's just that they then burn the separated sulphur into the air to get rid of it.
BP were really good at making diesel in both Brisbane and Kwinana, I bet they are unimpressed by the rescue package.

Cheers Glen

[Homestar]

We could also mandate E20 or E25 that would help our fuel security, environment, manufacturing and primary producers in one hit, but that would be just too hard and logical to do. More pointedly it wouldn't get any votes.



As said by others, we do have crude available here, just not much and most of that is not the best for making fuel from. But apart from that you can get crude from a lot more places that you can get refined fuel from.



Ampol in Brisbane can make 10ppm, it's just that they then burn the separated sulphur into the air to get rid of it.
BP were really good at making diesel in both Brisbane and Kwinana, I bet they are unimpressed by the rescue package.

Cheers Glen

Where’s the crude in this country? I work at both Refineries here in Melbourne and there’s none anywhere here and the Engineers who make the stuff say there’s no crude in Aus to make fuel from (one of them said there’s basically zero crude at all left in Aus for anything - we’ve used it all) so I still don’t see why we need to keep the refineries open when they aren’t making any fuel.

Happy to see sources that counter this but from my work at them and who I talk to (the people that make the stuff) there isn’t any in Aus.

[V8Ian]

There are plenty of capped light crude wells in both the Cooper and Eromanga basins. Eromanga has a refinery operated by IOR.

[101RRS]

Just googling "oil reserves Australia" does show we do have oil reserves - on current estimates about 3 years worth on current usage of petroleum products - however it would seem that it is simply cheaper to import and keep our reserves for a rainy day.

The links I saw also indicates we have massive oil shale reserves that could be brought online with investment - noting that the US had all but exhausted it crude oil reserves and was a massive importer but with the help of shale oil is now a net exporter.

So as far as traditional crude oil reserves go we do not have much but we do have some just not cost effective to recover it at the moment.

[PhilipA]

Back in 1985 or so, I was talking to the President of Saudi ARAMCO ( the biggest oil producer in the World).

He made a point of saying that the Rundle oil shale project in Queensland was a fantastic
reserve of oil, on a par with the tar sands in Canada.

Nothing has been done with Rundle so it is still there waiting for its day in the sun.

There is plenty of conventional and unconventional oil in Australia. It is just that the "greenie" State Governments will not allow it to be developed.

Maybe that is why the Victorians think there is no oil although there are apparently good prospects in Gippsland.

If there is no oil, I don't know what the pipeline from Tara Western Queensland to Brisbane is carrying and what those "nodding Donkeys" at Santos and in the Kimberley are pumping.

Regards PhilipA

[Eevo]

We don't have any crude left in Aus. Currently importing 100% of our fuel crude...
hogwash. we have about 4,000,000,000 barrel of crude. about one tenth of american reserves.
its political reasons we dont extract it and have cheap fuel.

[Saitch]

hogwash. we have about 4,000,000,000 barrel of crude. about one tenth of american reserves.
its political reasons we dont extract it and have cheap fuel.

Careful, Eevo, or it will be off to Camp Angst with you![biggrin]

[350RRC]

Where’s the crude in this country? I work at both Refineries here in Melbourne and there’s none anywhere here and the Engineers who make the stuff say there’s no crude in Aus to make fuel from (one of them said there’s basically zero crude at all left in Aus for anything - we’ve used it all) so I still don’t see why we need to keep the refineries open when they aren’t making any fuel.

Happy to see sources that counter this but from my work at them and who I talk to (the people that make the stuff) there isn’t any in Aus.

The twin (or triple, can't remember) pipelines from Longford (Bass Strait hub) to the Melb refineries were renewed in the last 10 years.

One was oil, other was lpg, can't remember what the third was.

The Corio refinery is connected to the Melb refineries by pipeline.

Met the guy overseeing the eco field work just before the renewal was done.

DL

[350RRC]

Back in 1985 or so, I was talking to the President of Saudi ARAMCO ( the biggest oil producer in the World).

He made a point of saying that the Rundle oil shale project in Queensland was a fantastic
reserve of oil, on a par with the tar sands in Canada.

Nothing has been done with Rundle so it is still there waiting for its day in the sun.

There is plenty of conventional and unconventional oil in Australia. It is just that the "greenie" State Governments will not allow it to be developed.

Maybe that is why the Victorians think there is no oil although there are apparently good prospects in Gippsland.

If there is no oil, I don't know what the pipeline from Tara Western Queensland to Brisbane is carrying and what those "nodding Donkeys" at Santos and in the Kimberley are pumping.

Regards PhilipA

I agree there is plenty of oil in the ground but the imports of refined product is simply an economic decision, especially considering economies of scale as in the Singapore refineries.

cheers, DL

[V8Ian]

When I was working out in the SW Qld Gasfields, I was told that after extensive tests with multiple filters and gradually reducing the filters , the whole vehicle fleet based in Jackson and Ballera were running on straight light crude , true distillate , unrefined with no apparent problem or concern from Toyota and other manufacturers.

I don't know if Neill Mansell ran it any of his trucks though.

I don't know if any of you have first hand knowledge of Australia's oil reserves , but we actually have plenty in the ground , much of it capped.
Caterpillar said they would warrant their engines, running on raw Cooper Basin crude, it only needed proper filtration.

[Homestar]

The twin (or triple, can't remember) pipelines from Longford (Bass Strait hub) to the Melb refineries were renewed in the last 10 years.

One was oil, other was lpg, can't remember what the third was.

The Corio refinery is connected to the Melb refineries by pipeline.

Met the guy overseeing the eco field work just before the renewal was done.

DL

Bass Straight is out of oil - it’s only gas that’s left - and not much of that either. All but 3 of the rigs are in hibernation currently with only gas passing through them and not doing anything else.

[350RRC]

Bass Straight is out of oil - it’s only gas that’s left - and not much of that either. All but 3 of the rigs are in hibernation currently with only gas passing through them and not doing anything else.

Well maybe the three pipelines have gas going through each. Dunno.

If so, the dig warning signs every few hundred metres along the corridor to Melby are wrong.

This is after the renewal of the pipes.

cheers, DL

[NavyDiver]

Didn't some one buy or arrange us sharing huge storage capacity with the US? Note it might be Winnie in Texas,only about 8000 kilometers from OZ" might have a bit of our storage

The odd bit is we are up sheep creek unless we get a lot less dependent on oil. The 2 billion given away is about politics not smart where several other option would give us real current and future energy security.

On the oil topic. I hope Texas play has better cyber security?? "CEO of Colonial Pipeline has admitted his company paid hackers nearly $4.5m last week after their attack forced the firm to stop transporting fuel." Bet that was LandyCoin crypto NOT[biggrin] I also assume every half assed pimply programmer kid and North Korea hacker+ will love a bit of hack attack on oil storage there and every where for a bit of that easy money.[bighmmm][bighmmm][bighmmm]

Edit- I am slow- its already happened "Since last August, the hackers responsible, DarkSide, have made at least $90m in ransom payments from about 47 victims, Bitcoin records show." Link

(https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-57173096)[B]That's what we know has been paid I assume a lot more has been paid

[cuppabillytea]

hogwash. we have about 4,000,000,000 barrel of crude. about one tenth of american reserves.
its political reasons we dont extract it and have cheap fuel.
Not politics but economics. The greenies would dearly love the power you ascribe to them.

[Blknight.aus]

Meh, not stressed,

Diesels, real diesels run on anything thats near enough to diesel in terms of viscosity and flamability....

[jonesfam]

I've discovered oil in Australia.
It's on the pavers under my Land Rover!
Jonesfam

[3toes]

When I worked for one of the oil majors was at a conference and one of the topics was oil reserves. This was about 15 to 20 years ago but think should still hold true

They were saying that based on known oil reserves there were enough in Canada alone to meet the projected global supply requirements. Reason most known reserves were not being accessed was cost. One interesting one I remember was the size of the known oil reserves in Somalia near the gulf of Aden. There were plenty of other countries with reserves that you would never of thought of

Australia had a problem that you cannot obtain planning approval to expand a refinery sufficiently to build a new refinery of the size required to make the product competitive. Crude could have been brought into Australia refined and exported but it was not possible to build the infrastructure to do this. Singapore and India do not feel the same way and their planning rules allow the build and expansion. So they have the industry

[350RRC]

When I worked for one of the oil majors was at a conference and one of the topics was oil reserves. This was about 15 to 20 years ago but think should still hold true

They were saying that based on known oil reserves there were enough in Canada alone to meet the projected global supply requirements. Reason most known reserves were not being accessed was cost. One interesting one I remember was the size of the known oil reserves in Somalia near the gulf of Aden. There were plenty of other countries with reserves that you would never of thought of

Australia had a problem that you cannot obtain planning approval to expand a refinery sufficiently to build a new refinery of the size required to make the product competitive. Crude could have been brought into Australia refined and exported but it was not possible to build the infrastructure to do this. Singapore and India do not feel the same way and their planning rules allow the build and expansion. So they have the industry

Exactly!

DL

[DiscoMick]

Pretty sure I read the upgrade of the two refineries will improve fuel quality to Euro6 standard.
I also read our fuel reserve in Texas is only equivalent to 3 days of our consumption.