Time based maintenance: basis?

[Cyclist]

I have recently purchased a D4, MY12, SDV6 HSE.
Its predecessors were a 98 D1 and an 84 RR, both of which I maintained myself.
The D4 will be my first car where this will not be the case: quite beyond my knowledge and facilities.

I believe I have identified a suitable service outfit, but I need to understand what they're doing.
I have had a look at the maintenance check sheet - which was actually for UK and EU to 11MY - and I see services for a 3.0 diesel, alternating 'A' and 'B', every 26,000 kms or 12 months.

The car is now 9 years old and has done 174,000 kms.
Timing belt was supposed to have been done at 163,000.
I believe it was serviced just prior to purchase, but don't know what was done at this point.
The repair shop put a sticker on it saying next service due at 184,000/6 months, ie 27/11/21.
This equates to 20k per year, whereas I'm likely to rack up only 8k, per year!
So by November, just another 4,000 kms.

That's all preamble. I'm not aiming to scrimp here. On the contrary, I intend to service it to the max.
I know that timed services is a well established approach, but I have never seen any justification for it.
If a car travel 10k per year, why not service it every two years?

Thoughts?

[dirvine]

From what I have been told, if a car does only low kms (ie less than 10k) per year, the chances are that the car only does shorts trips and so hardly ever gets up to full operating temps. As such oils absorb moisture that never gets "boiled" off and the oil degredates over the time, and then looses its protective characteristics. Not that I buy 2nd hand anymore but when i did I would generally avoid low kms old cars or those just driven to Church on Sundays by old grannies. In any case if you have a D4 and only do short trips you will soon find out the battery cannot cope and you will need to put it on charge. There are lots on the D4 forum regarding this. Cheers

[BradC]

avoid low kms old cars or those just driven to Church on Sundays by old grannies.

When my grandmother gave up her car she had me sell it for her. In its last 5 years it had done on average 2,000km a year and had a logged oil&filter change every 3 months. It was a Getz, so I figured it’s oil was changed more frequently than it was filled up with fuel. There are exceptions to every rule.

Personally since the advent of affordable synthetic oil I’ve done 10kk or 12 months. Whichever comes first.

Routine maintenance on a 3/4 is absolutely doable by a home mechanic, more so given your previous experience with the manufacturer.

[Plane Fixer]

I am launching some aircraft style pre emptive maintenance in a couple of weeks.
I am about to turn over 270000km soon so I am getting both intake manifolds replaced, oil cooler, and any injectors which are not up to scratch. The mileage is 95% country driving as I do work in Scone, Parkes, Sydney and Wollongong.
I am after reliability as I do mainly long highway trips for my work, and I could not think of going back to a less comfortable or less capable vehicle so the quote so far is approx $4700 plus injectors if needed.
I have only replaced brakes, lower arms, belts, auto transmission mechatronic accumulators and seals. The transfer case replacement was my own fault as the range change forks got bent when I did a range change on the run going up a mountain and got stuck in low.
I have had many quips about reliability, but when I tell them the mileage without major dramas they are amazed. A couple of LC200 owners have had engine problems and several changes of injectors in that time among other things within that sort of mileage.

[gavinwibrow]

I have recently purchased a D4, MY12, SDV6 HSE.
Its predecessors were a 98 D1 and an 84 RR, both of which I maintained myself.
The D4 will be my first car where this will not be the case: quite beyond my knowledge and facilities.

I believe I have identified a suitable service outfit, but I need to understand what they're doing.
I have had a look at the maintenance check sheet - which was actually for UK and EU to 11MY - and I see services for a 3.0 diesel, alternating 'A' and 'B', every 26,000 kms or 12 months.

The car is now 9 years old and has done 174,000 kms.
Timing belt was supposed to have been done at 163,000.
I believe it was serviced just prior to purchase, but don't know what was done at this point.
The repair shop put a sticker on it saying next service due at 184,000/6 months, ie 27/11/21.
This equates to 20k per year, whereas I'm likely to rack up only 8k, per year!
So by November, just another 4,000 kms.

That's all preamble. I'm not aiming to scrimp here. On the contrary, I intend to service it to the max.
I know that timed services is a well established approach, but I have never seen any justification for it.
If a car travel 10k per year, why not service it every two years?

Thoughts?


You will find most on here subscribe to the 10K km/6 months which ever comes first rule for basic servicing.

I'm a 10K max person but will allow up to 8-9 months if all is going well and providing its been not all short suburban trips - need to blow out the cobwebs every now and then. If doing mainly suburban running you will also find your battery/ies degrading and needing a topup by either battery charger, or as I do, connect up a small solar panel.
Enjoy the beast - they are awesome if looked after

[Cyclist]

From what I have been told, if a car does only low kms (ie less than 10k) per year, the chances are that the car only does shorts trips and so hardly ever gets up to full operating temps. As such oils absorb moisture that never gets "boiled" off and the oil degredates over the time, and then looses its protective characteristics. Not that I buy 2nd hand anymore but when i did I would generally avoid low kms old cars or those just driven to Church on Sundays by old grannies. In any case if you have a D4 and only do short trips you will soon find out the battery cannot cope and you will need to put it on charge. There are lots on the D4 forum regarding this. Cheers

Thanks for that. A bit lazy of me to not investigate a bit first.

What's a short trip? From a Castrol article:
"When a vehicle is regularly driven for less than 20 minutes at a time the engine does not get hot enough for long enough to force the contaminants out of the oil. This can result in an excessive build up of contaminants in the oil."

From a 1993 L A Times article:
"Water contamination of the oil occurs when moist air is drawn into the crankcase and condenses after the engine is turned off. Frequent short trips increase the amount of condensation. The water in the crankcase is not harmful, but it can combine with sulfur, a byproduct of combustion, to form sulfurous acid, a weak acid that breaks down the lubricating qualities of the oil."

Fifty years ago I changed the oil in my Mark V11, all 24 pints of it, every 2,500 miles. Modern synthetic oils are obviously a lot better than Castrol XL.

Although my kms are low my trips <20kms are very few. However, upon reflection I will adhere to the six months interval. Forty years ago my Saab Turbo needed two replacement turbos. Two turbos on the D4, with movable vanes on one!
I'll think of it as a six monthly insurance premium.

Thanks again for your response.

[Cyclist]

..

Personally since the advent of affordable synthetic oil I’ve done 10kk or 12 months. Whichever comes first.

Routine maintenance on a 3/4 is absolutely doable by a home mechanic, more so given your previous experience with the manufacturer.

After the D1 I feel I've bought the Royal Yacht Britannia!
I read in an article about the 2.7 diesel that to replace the turbo it's easiest if you lift off the body!
I open the bonnet to connect my little compressor to the battery but where is it? Under a plastic cover!

After the shock and awe has worn off I may start doing stuff myself..

Thanks for your thoughts.

[BradC]

After the D1 I feel I've bought the Royal Yacht Britannia!
I read in an article about the 2.7 diesel that to replace the turbo it's easiest if you lift off the body!
I open the bonnet to connect my little compressor to the battery but where is it? Under a plastic cover!

After the shock and awe has worn off I may start doing stuff myself..

They certainly are complex and a diagnostic tool like a Gap IID can help a _lot_ because there are computers around every corner. There are a lot of things that would be easier "body off", but a great deal of them can be done "body on" with sufficient stock of beer and expletives. It also helps if you know a double-jointed midget russian contortionist to assist. Also keep a good stock of 10mm sockets. These cars are like the Bermuda triangle for 10mm sockets.

The workshop manual would be a valuable addition to your bookshelf, although the muppet who coined the phrase "reassembly is the reverse of removal" should be cast into the pit of despair. There is an excellent resource here in a lot of members who have "been there, done that and ruined the t-shirt in the process", plus the D3 UK forums and loads of stuff on youtube.

Welcome to the family and condolences in advance. At least they're nice to look at even when they go past on the flat bed.

[Eevo]

back in the day, when oils were less advanced, they turned acidic over time, hence the every 12 months part regardless of km.
modern oils don't seem do this if you believe the literature.

[DieselLSE]

These cars are like the Bermuda triangle for 10mm sockets.

...the muppet who coined the phrase "reassembly is the reverse of removal" should be cast into the pit of despair.
BradC will be appearing soon in his one act play "The Sermon on the Bonnet"

[GIL]

Hi Cyclist,
I second the point re: workshop manual.
The operator of AULRO also can provide a manual for a most reasonable fee.
And of course as has been mentioned, the GURU's on here are people who generously share their knowledge and experience.

Enjoy your Disco.
GIL

[Discodicky]

If you serviced your last cars then you are more than capable of servicing the D4.

Big question you need to decide is whether to suck out the engine oil from the tube provided at LHF of engine or go the 'hard' way by removing bash plate and sump plug.
I do the latter but curse it when the oil flows onto the chassis and goes everywhere except to the drain tin!
Keep saying I'll buy a vac pump but need someone to tell me what to buy (hint).

More learned guys here say you get more out thru the vac method.

Definitely change every 10,000 k max and use correct full synthetic oil. I use Penrite Enviro Plus C1.

Remove oil filter first because another 1/2 litre or so will drain into sump upon removal.

REPCO sell the identical (to Genuine OEM) MANN oil filter at very sharp price particularly if you can get "trade" price, about $14 from memory.

Enjoy!

[shanegtr]

back in the day, when oils were less advanced, they turned acidic over time, hence the every 12 months part regardless of km.
modern oils don't seem do this if you believe the literature.

They still do, but it now takes a bit longer. Combination of improved fuels, engines and oil additives can be the reason - its not just the oil on its own being the sole reason

[AK83]

.....

Big question you need to decide is whether to suck out the engine oil from the tube provided at LHF of engine or go the 'hard' way by removing bash plate and sump plug.
I do the latter but curse it when the oil flows onto the chassis and goes everywhere except to the drain tin!
.....


LOL!
Get yourself a 'clickdrain' sump plug and draining attachment for it.
It will seem like a lot of money, but it may end up being the best waste of money you will have ever spent.

D1 300 Tdi is similar in it's sump draining, even tho it looks like a ton of room.
The initial surge of draining oil lands perfectly on the front sway bar where it duly splashes sideways ... everywhere except the pan. I reckon 5 of the first 6 lt ends up on the floor.

The Femco clickdrain is a brass fitting that replaces the sump plug, and you never need to remove it. Just unscrew the 'dust' cap by hand.
The other bit you will have purchased is the 'click on' attachment where you will have fitted a small length of some hose, and the hose will be directed into a container of your choosing so no draining oil into a pan which then needs decanting into a container to get it to the local oil recycling place.

In my D1, a Penrite 10lt drum fits perfectly under the car without the need to lift it. I get under the car, engine can be as hot or cold as you like coz you never touch anything hot(like oil), and unscrew the dust cap by hand.
Drag in the 10lt drum. hose end needs to be inserted into the 10lt drum first(only because it's not very flexible) still holding the click end, then drag and line up the 10lt drum(easy as it's empty) and click the clicky end into the clickdrain fitting. Slide myself out and have a nice long smoko(I always give myself enough time for long smokos )

Zero mess! The 10lt drum is then ready to take to the recycle centre.
If it weren't for the annoyance of the 300 tdi oil filter location, it would be the cleanest part of maintaining a diesel engine by far now.

I thought about the cheaper screw on version(as opposed to the click on one I got) but I thought that by the time you screw in the attachment it may drip a drop or two here or there.
Clickdrain type is by far a lot more exxy than the screw type but unless you make a mistake in some way is completely drip free. Think of it like your garden hose clicking system .. same thing, just for oil services.

There are other brands that do the same thing, just can't remember the names of them right now.

[B]THIS is the femco (https://www.femco.com/) one I have.

[DieselLSE]

LOL!
Get yourself a 'clickdrain' sump plug and draining attachment for it.

Not needed for the D4. The vacuum tube works brilliantly and makes the oil and filter change a drip free pleasant experience. You could wear a tuxedo whilst doing it (think James Bond). You just need a common garden variety oil vacuum pump of over 6 litres. Mine is similar to this, but I'm sure you can get them cheaper.
Pela Vacuum Oil Extractor 6.5L, $149.95 | Whitworths Marine (https://www.whitworths.com.au/pmp-vac-oil-6-5l)

[Eric SDV6SE]

Not needed for the D4. The vacuum tube works brilliantly and makes the oil and filter change a drip free pleasant experience. You could wear a tuxedo whilst doing it (think James Bond). You just need a common garden variety oil vacuum pump of over 6 litres. Mine is similar to this, but I'm sure you can get them cheaper.
Pela Vacuum Oil Extractor 6.5L, $149.95 | Whitworths Marine (https://www.whitworths.com.au/pmp-vac-oil-6-5l)

This one works a treat for me: 9L Waste Oil Fluid Extractor Pump Manual Suction Vacuum Fuel Car Boat Transfer | eBay (https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/9L-Waste-Oil-Fluid-Extractor-Pump-Manual-Suction-Vacuum-Fuel-Car-Boat-Transfer-/114438805079?_trksid=p2349624.m46890.l49286)

Note the vac tube connection into the sump sits about 20mm lower that the sump plug (dont know why), so you will get more oil out by the suction method. I have tried and tested both, you get 200-300ml more out via the suction tube. Run an engine flush beforehand and take the filter off before suctioning, allows oil from filter housing to fully drain back to sump. I then also use the suction tube to clean out the oil filter recess.

[stuarth44]

I have recently purchased a D4, MY12, SDV6 HSE.
Its predecessors were a 98 D1 and an 84 RR, both of which I maintained myself.
The D4 will be my first car where this will not be the case: quite beyond my knowledge and facilities.

I believe I have identified a suitable service outfit, but I need to understand what they're doing.
I have had a look at the maintenance check sheet - which was actually for UK and EU to 11MY - and I see services for a 3.0 diesel, alternating 'A' and 'B', every 26,000 kms or 12 months.

The car is now 9 years old and has done 174,000 kms.
Timing belt was supposed to have been done at 163,000.
I believe it was serviced just prior to purchase, but don't know what was done at this point.
The repair shop put a sticker on it saying next service due at 184,000/6 months, ie 27/11/21.
This equates to 20k per year, whereas I'm likely to rack up only 8k, per year!
So by November, just another 4,000 kms most change oil filter every 10000km, this IMO is bloody


That's all preamble. I'm not aiming to scrimp here. On the contrary, I intend to service it to the max.
I know that timed services is a well established approach, but I have never seen any justification for it.
If a car travel 10k per year, why not service it every two years?

Thoughts?

bonkers, 20 000 is probs too soon too, you can see the big name diesel makers of engines in road transport stretching out lube oil swaps, is a road train changed every 10000 that be less than 2 weeks, my advice, examine your oil, when you swap the eng lube filter, cut the old one and spread out the filtrate, read what it says, bright silver is piston material, gold is bearing material
in the 70,s before i started my own bizz building steel and alu yachts, i was a diesel fitter at Cummins Newcastle, NSW, these were our methods to read oil
now light duty change on line haul is every 64000km
heavy duty. like road train stuff 32000km, normal duty 48000km
from now on it is 30000 for me d4, i just changed today at 215000km, no oil usage since last change 200000km
https://static1.squarespace.com/static/5c00437645776ee0d8bf1218/t/5ca26ed81905f45415053f40/1554149080620/Cummins+X15+Maintenance+Interval.pdf

[josh.huber]

They still do, but it now takes a bit longer. Combination of improved fuels, engines and oil additives can be the reason - its not just the oil on its own being the sole reason

The acid comes from the soot the most. Pre combustion diesels were really bad for it. Like Shane said, engine design along with oil quality has helped..

[josh.huber]

bonkers, 20 000 is probs too soon too, you can see the big name diesel makers of engines in road transport stretching out lube oil swaps, is a road train changed every 10000 that be less than 2 weeks, my advice, examine your oil, when you swap the eng lube filter, cut the old one and spread out the filtrate, read what it says, bright silver is piston material, gold is bearing material
in the 70,s before i started my own bizz building steel and alu yachts, i was a diesel fitter at Cummins Newcastle, NSW, these were our methods to read oil
now light duty change on line haul is every 64000km
heavy duty. like road train stuff 32000km, normal duty 48000km
from now on it is 30000 for me d4, i just changed today at 215000km, no oil usage since last change 200000km
https://static1.squarespace.com/static/5c00437645776ee0d8bf1218/t/5ca26ed81905f45415053f40/1554149080620/Cummins+X15+Maintenance+Interval.pdf

I see your point Stuart, however in my experience these engines are dirty. I've had my oil tested before and it was ready to change.. If you want to push that far I would definately be getting the oil tested. But at $30 a test your money will be better spent on oil.
The comparison to those engines doesn't work that well. They have much different design parameters I'm about to hook a gauge up to mine and work out what oil I can safely change to as I'm at 270ks

[Bulletman]

bonkers, 20 000 is probs too soon too, you can see the big name diesel makers of engines in road transport stretching out lube oil swaps, is a road train changed every 10000 that be less than 2 weeks, my advice, examine your oil, when you swap the eng lube filter, cut the old one and spread out the filtrate, read what it says, bright silver is piston material, gold is bearing material
in the 70,s before i started my own bizz building steel and alu yachts, i was a diesel fitter at Cummins Newcastle, NSW, these were our methods to read oil
now light duty change on line haul is every 64000km
heavy duty. like road train stuff 32000km, normal duty 48000km
from now on it is 30000 for me d4, i just changed today at 215000km, no oil usage since last change 200000km
https://static1.squarespace.com/static/5c00437645776ee0d8bf1218/t/5ca26ed81905f45415053f40/1554149080620/Cummins+X15+Maintenance+Interval.pdf

Not questioning your method, but comparing road transport engines to car is in my view not that simple.. for a start standard oil capacity would be 15x more in a Cummins ISX engine , plus I would say the oil filtration would be better with either double filter and bypass or similar.

I work with marine engines, 200ltr sump and the oil changes are done in engine hours , usually 1000 hr intervals but filters are changed every 250hrs. Our gensets with 80ltr sumps are 500 hours with filters every 250hrs.

For the cost of oil and filter I feel more comfortable with shorter oil changes but if your happy doing those types of kms then that’s your choice.

Bulletman

[josh.huber]

To add insight to the original question posed. Those traveling short distances all the time do less Kilometers but damage the oil more. With the added use of plastics, age becomes a bigger issue then kilometres. Plus items like brake fluid, hoses, globes etc should be checked annually. If you were doing only big drives then servicing on kilometres only would probably be ok.

[stuarth44]

i 've no idea why but when I worked at Cummins Newcastle, mostly on the 855 , 555, 504 cu inch engines, all of the aforementioned never turned the oil black on changing, never see that anywhere else, yes, it when black gradually but not straight off as you'd expect
using full synthetic on the D4, i was pleased to see how liquid it was when i drained it, maybe thats a characteristic of the oil, but usually oil runs slow bordering on sludgy, so my motor is in good health, ie, no need top up , filter opened up and no sign of metal,
lastly, the 2.7 is a very quiet diesel engine Arggggggggggggg!!
yes i know oils are done on hours on marine, agriculture,road machines, gensets
anyway my project today, sling the spare wheels to the chassis rails, two spares, one for van one for disco, back near the axle, convinced this will stop vans pitching which will take strains off of the car air suspension, the wheels where on the chassis apex close to the hitch
have a noice Sunday people

[stuarth44]

To add insight to the original question posed. Those traveling short distances all the time do less Kilometers but damage the oil more. With the added use of plastics, age becomes a bigger issue then kilometres. Plus items like brake fluid, hoses, globes etc should be checked annually. If you were doing only big drives then servicing on kilometres only would probably be ok.

yes true, I've only driven 17000 km in 2 years
i thought of cutting an oval slot in the belly guard, then having a plate over that slot fastened by 2 hexheads tapped into the guard, the aim, less work to drain oil, for me it is not easy to drop the guard and refit, as i only have partial use of one arm/hand

[rick130]

The acid comes from the soot the most. Pre combustion diesels were really bad for it. Like Shane said, engine design along with oil quality has helped..And EGR systems have re-introduced the problem of soot. [emoji6]

Short trips not evaporating condensation (as mentioned a number of times above) is the other contributer to depleting the reserve alkalinity of the oil.

Like Shane, I'll adhere to the change at 12 months regardless regime.

[DiscoMick]

Another approach might be to think about changing filters more regularly, rather than the oil itself.
The fully synthetic oils seem able to retain their qualities longer than in the past.
Changing filters regularly can only help to maintain the quality of the oil.
Mind you, I'm still doing 10,000 km services, rather than the 20,000 LR recommends for our Puma Defender.
Its interesting that Mazda still requires 10,000 km services for our 2, even though it uses fully synthetic oils.
I figure oils and filters are cheap insurance for the vehicle to last longer.

[Cyclist]

bonkers, 20 000 is probs too soon too, you can see the big name diesel makers of engines in road transport stretching out lube oil swaps, is a road train changed every 10000 that be less than 2 weeks, my advice, examine your oil, when you swap the eng lube filter, cut the old one and spread out the filtrate, read what it says, bright silver is piston material, gold is bearing material
in the 70,s before i started my own bizz building steel and alu yachts, i was a diesel fitter at Cummins Newcastle, NSW, these were our methods to read oil
now light duty change on line haul is every 64000km
heavy duty. like road train stuff 32000km, normal duty 48000km
from now on it is 30000 for me d4, i just changed today at 215000km, no oil usage since last change 200000km
https://static1.squarespace.com/static/5c00437645776ee0d8bf1218/t/5ca26ed81905f45415053f40/1554149080620/Cummins+X15+Maintenance+Interval.pdf

Very interesting evidence-based perspective, Stuart. Road trains seldom just go down to the shops, so there's that.
Short of deconstructing the used filter, I did read in an American publication that it's not too expensive to have your oil tested.

[rick130]

Another approach might be to think about changing filters more regularly, rather than the oil itself.
The fully synthetic oils seem able to retain their qualities longer than in the past.
Changing filters regularly can only help to maintain the quality of the oil.
Mind you, I'm still doing 10,000 km services, rather than the 20,000 LR recommends for our Puma Defender.
Its interesting that Mazda still requires 10,000 km services for our 2, even though it uses fully synthetic oils.
I figure oils and filters are cheap insurance for the vehicle to last longer.Full flow filters do bugger all in the scheme of things and changing one certainly doesn't prolong oil life.
Real oil filtration only occurs with bypass filters.

The TD5 had the brilliant bypass centrifugal filter which does pull out sub micron particles and does prolong oil life.
Few engines have factory fitted bypass filters, and mostly they aren't needed.

The most important filter for prolonging oil life is the air filter and a fully sealed inlet tract. OEM or equivalent quality, no oiled foam or cotton filters if you care about engine life

We've done this to death multiple times over the years on here.

[Eevo]

We've done this to death multiple times over the years on here.

maybe its time we discuss the benefits of installing a hi-clone

[DiscoJeffster]

maybe its time we discuss the benefits of installing a hi-clone

And Brockie’s energy polariser.

[stuarth44]

Full flow filters do bugger all in the scheme of things and changing one certainly doesn't prolong oil life.
Real oil filtration only occurs with bypass filters.

The TD5 had the brilliant bypass centrifugal filter which does pull out sub micron particles and does prolong oil life.
Few engines have factory fitted bypass filters, and mostly they aren't needed.

The most important filter for prolonging oil life is the air filter and a fully sealed inlet tract. OEM or equivalent quality, no oiled foam or cotton filters if you care about engine life

We've done this to death multiple times over the years on here.

all large engines have by pass and the filters are very large, as for changing, the v6 holdens had tiny filters, which caused a lot of eng failures
ok so i've not been here for years
promise to drop the topic

[rick130]

all large engines have by pass and the filters are very large, as for changing, the v6 holdens had tiny filters, which caused a lot of eng failures
ok so i've not been here for years
promise to drop the topicMy point was they're not seen on passenger/light truck type diesels except for a few older engines like the TD5, the old Toyota 2H and some Nissan TD42T's over the years.

Full flow filters generally only filter in the beta2=20-30 micron range.
Soot is around 1 micron.
They only pick up larger pieces, handy when you get a catastrophic failure or when people aren't clean at oil or air filter change time, not so handy for actually cleaning oil.

[Eric SDV6SE]

Another approach might be to think about changing filters more regularly, rather than the oil itself.
The fully synthetic oils seem able to retain their qualities longer than in the past.
Changing filters regularly can only help to maintain the quality of the oil.
Mind you, I'm still doing 10,000 km services, rather than the 20,000 LR recommends for our Puma Defender.
Its interesting that Mazda still requires 10,000 km services for our 2, even though it uses fully synthetic oils.
I figure oils and filters are cheap insurance for the vehicle to last longer.

10000km oil changes with a new filter, actual cost is around $90-100 if DIY. I see no point of just changing oil filter and not the oil. Change air filter every 20000km, fuel filter every 2 years seems to work for me.