What is a #30 Stub in Riveting? Where did the Numbers Come From

[Lionelgee]

Hello All,

Part of a project I am currently doing involves riveting. I checked the drill size for my selected 4.1 rivet and the manufacturer recommends using a
#30 stub or a 3.2 mm diameter drill. Another lot of rivets are the 6.8 rivet which need a #11 stub or a 4.8 mm diameter drill.

So my questions are:

What does the 4.1 and 6.8 written on the packages refer to? I circled the 4.1 and the 6.8 in red in the attached photos taken from their pack labels.
What does the #30 and the #11 stub (drills) signify and where do they get their numbers from?

When I went to check on my drill kit sizes for the 4.8 mm drill I had a 4.0 a 4.5 and a 5.0 mm diameters. I also checked at the hardware place for the smaller 3.2 mm drill and they had 3.0 and 3.5 mm.

Are these not readily available 4.8 and 3.2 mm drill diameters really Imperial sizes being quoted on supposedly Metric sized rivets? As in 4.8 mm diameter is 3/16 inch (-0.78% smaller) according to the online conversion accessed 17th June from 4.8 mm to inches (https://coolconversion.com/lenght/4.8-mm-to-inch). Plus 3.2 MM = 0.32 CM = 0.13 inches = 1/8"


Kind regards
Lionel

[ramblingboy42]

in engineering trades there are number drills used for specific purposes, such as aeroplane rivetting , as well as the linear measured drills vis " and mm

most engineering supplys stock number drills

[p38arover]

As noted above it's a number drill. I have a number of them (sorry about that [bigwhistle] ). (There are also letter sized drills - see http://www.smithbearing.com/images/pdf/ENG-FractionalChart.pdf)

No. 30 is 0.1285 inches dia. = 3.2639mm (a poopteenth over 1/8")

Stub means a quite short drill. The fluted section isn't very long.

171631

[Lionelgee]

Hello Ron & Rambling boy,

Ron thank you for the link to the drill sizes chart. Pun what pun?

Thank you Rambling Boy for the information about engineer's numbered drills.

I did some research into rivets and the 4.1 and 6.8 refer to the outside diameter of the rivet's head. For example, 6.8 equals 6.8 mm diameter.

Kind regards
Lionel

[Lionelgee]

Hello All,

I did know about "grip range" shown on the rivet packaging. A good explanation of what grip range is can be accessed 17th June 2021 from, Understanding Rivet Grip Range Grip range of a rivet is the range of thicknessGrip range of a rivet is the range of thicknessFastener Superstore Blog | Fastener SuperStore Blog (https://www.fastenersuperstore.com/blog/rivet-grip-range)

The dimensions of rivets which identified the outside diameter provides the 4.1 or 6.8 as 4.1 mm outside diameter of the rivet was sourced from, https://www.ausriveting.com.au/static/pdfs/Rivets.pdf

Kind regards
Lionel

[Don 130]

It seems the Americans are calling the shots here with an imperial measurement code. The first number refers to the diameter of the rivet in 32nds of an inch. The second number refers to the maximum grip length in 16ths of an inch. Therefore a size 45 rivet is 4/32" (1/8") diameter with a 5/16" maximum grip range.
Get you calculator out and work out the numbers for a rivet marked 4.8. It has a Diameter of 3.2mm and a grip length of 12.7mm
Don.


Edit: I corrected the number for grip length. D

[Homestar]

Even Bunnings sells a good range of drills for riveting - I buy the double ended packs in various sizes as I use rivets for a lot of different things from small to stupidly large but ever since I got a cordless rivet gun they make a lot more sense. [biggrin]

Sutton Tools No.11 Double Ended Panel Drill Bit - 2 Pack - Bunnings Australia (https://www.bunnings.com.au/sutton-tools-no-11-double-ended-panel-drill-bit-2-pack_p6358063)

[Lionelgee]

Even Bunnings sells a good range of drills for riveting - I buy the double ended packs in various sizes as I use rivets for a lot of different things from small to stupidly large but ever since I got a cordless rivet gun they make a lot more sense. [biggrin]

Sutton Tools No.11 Double Ended Panel Drill Bit - 2 Pack - Bunnings Australia (https://www.bunnings.com.au/sutton-tools-no-11-double-ended-panel-drill-bit-2-pack_p6358063)

Hello Gav,

They are the ones that I had bought from the very same supplier - well from the Bundaberg store. It was from reading the rivet label and then walking over to the tools section to track down the #11 and the #30 drills that initially got me wondering about what the "#11 or #30" meant.

Kind regards
Lionel

[Homestar]

Just finished a job putting some 1/4” stainless rivets in - even the cordless rivet gun grunted doing those. When I first bought it I thought it was a lot of money for something I only had one or two jobs for at the time but I would use it every other week now since I first used it - I’ve changed over to rivets for all sorts of jobs I would have used screws for in the past. Rivets are dirt cheap too compared to screws. [emoji106]

[rick130]

I don't think anyone has quite pointed out that a #30 drill provides clearance for an 1/8" rivet, a #20 clearance for a 5/32" rivet and a #11 clearance for a 3/16" rivet.

If you use a 1/8, 5/32, etc drill bit the rivet will likely jam in the hole, whereas the listed number bits are just slightly bigger, allowing a slight clearance so the rivet body can be inserted easily.

[p38arover]

Just finished a job putting some 1/4” stainless rivets in - even the cordless rivet gun grunted doing those.

I use a pneumatic rivet gun. I bought it when I had problems doing 3/16" rivets with a hand tool. One has to be sure to keep one's fingers off the trigger until one is really ready to rivet. Operating the tool with a rivet only partially inserted means a very loose rivet that can be a mongrel to remove to redo it.

[Lionelgee]

Hello All,

I remember seeing a documentary about the New York skyline during the construction of the Empire State Building and the rivet crews who built it. One of the team heated a rivet up and then while using the tongs threw the red hot rivet through the air where it was caught by the catcher who used a steel funnel to catch the rivet mid-air. The catcher then passed the rivet on to the hammer team - Accessed 19th June 2021 from New York Documentary - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MiYn9d1CAto) . I just watched a clip from a 1949 Glasgow shipyard where the catcher only uses gloves to catch the red-hot rivet as it is thrown towards him. Accessed 19th June 2021 from, A riveting squad at work at John Brown's shipyard, Glasgow in 1949. - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVjS1DsqYvo)


Here is a YouTube clip from a bloke who uses similar furnace heated rivets in a small industrial studio. Accessed 19th June 2021 from, Hot riveting process | Hydraulic riveting | Compilation - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PQP1TU47RqE)


Kind regards
Lionel

[Don 130]

Here's a link to a chart of letter and number drills.

http://www.smithbearing.com/images/pdf/ENG-FractionalChart.pdf

Don.

[gromit]

Hello All,

I remember seeing a documentary about the New York skyline during the construction of the Empire State Building and the rivet crews who built it. One of the team heated a rivet up and then while using the tongs threw the red hot rivet through the air where it was caught by the catcher who used a steel funnel to catch the rivet mid-air. The catcher then passed the rivet on to the hammer team - Accessed 19th June 2021 from New York Documentary - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=MiYn9d1CAto) . I just watched a clip from a 1949 Glasgow shipyard where the catcher only uses gloves to catch the red-hot rivet as it is thrown towards him. Accessed 19th June 2021 from, A riveting squad at work at John Brown's shipyard, Glasgow in 1949. - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=CVjS1DsqYvo)


Here is a YouTube clip from a bloke who uses similar furnace heated rivets in a small industrial studio. Accessed 19th June 2021 from, Hot riveting process | Hydraulic riveting | Compilation - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=PQP1TU47RqE)


Kind regards
Lionel

Lionel,

Watch some of Fred Dibnah's videos where he was restoring traction engines, he was hot riveting in his backyard.

Interesting character, he was a steeplejack but he also demolished industrial chimneys the old fashioned way. Either laddered up, put a platform round the top and took them down brick by brick or he cut away half the base of the chimney, fitting wooden props as he went then set fire to the base to burn out the props.
Always had a Land Rover for getting to & from site. Early days it was a Lightweight, later a Series III shorty.

Turned up to Buckingham Palace to get his MBE in a traction engine. London traffic in a traction engine !



Colin