Road trains in Vic

[TonyC]

I was passed by a road train on the Hume near Barnawartha today.
How long have we had road trains in Vic?

Tony

[V8Ian]

Not a road train, an A double. A rose by any other name. Can't be scaring the masses.

[d2dave]

Not a road train, an A double. A rose by any other name. Can't be scaring the masses.

And the A Double milk tankers I was driving a couple of jobs ago were the same length as a B Double at 26 metres.

The advantage was a heaver payload.

[TonyC]

No a road train.
Cab over prime mover tri axle full length trailer, ring feeder tow coupling, twin axle dolly with a second tri axle full length trailer, 'road train' sign on the back.
Unless the they were short trailers, but they didn't look it.
Or is that what you call an A Double?
So what is a road train?
3 trailers?
Not a road train, an A double. A rose by any other name. Can't be scaring the masses.

[RobMichelle]

It has to do with total length and length of draw bar.which then equates to load carrying capacity.

[alien]

No a road train.
Cab over prime mover tri axle full length trailer, ring feeder tow coupling, twin axle dolly with a second tri axle full length trailer, 'road train' sign on the back.
Unless the they were short trailers, but they didn't look it.
Or is that what you call an A Double?
So what is a road train?
3 trailers?
They run a shorter draw bar on the dolly and are becoming quite popular with the container runners. Last 12 months they have been commonly seen.
The quad axles doubles have been granted more road network to use too.

[loanrangie]

They run a shorter draw bar on the dolly and are becoming quite popular with the container runners. Last 12 months they have been commonly seen.
The quad axles doubles have been granted more road network to use too.Most of the wharf runs these days are stack runs,used to be a single container straight out to client but now back to depot then out.

[alien]

Found this legislation document dated 2020...
Heavy Vehicle National Law - National Class 2 Road Train Authorisation Notice 2020 (No. 1) (https://www.legislation.gov.au/Details/C2020G00443)

[alien]

Most of the wharf runs these days are stack runs,used to be a single container straight out to client but now back to depot then out.
Yes and side loaders staying in an area either then being tied up at the wharfs.
Twist lockers are a funny breed.

[d2dave]

This is a pic of the A Double I used to drive.

Weight wise we could legally carry 44,000 litres. My last job was in a B double tanker and our limit was 40,000

[TonyC]

Thanks all, for the info.
So what's the down side of an A Double? Restricted road access?
Tony

[Tins]

Most of the wharf runs these days are stack runs,used to be a single container straight out to client but now back to depot then out.

I was doing that ten years ago. Either from the wharf or from hire yards. Double back the the depot, side loaders out to the customer and back. PITA for the drivers doing the "stack" drivers. Gotta love DP World.....

[d2dave]

Thanks all, for the info.
So what's the down side of an A Double? Restricted road access?
Tony

Basically same rules as a B double, which is restricted road access. As I said earlier, the advantage is higher pay load.

I don't know if it applies to all A doubles, but the milk tanker set up in my recent post has the rear wheels steer when under 40 kph.

This meant that you could access places B doubles could not. This gave us access to a lot of farms that previously could only have a single pick up milk.

A lot of the roads that had the farms we went to were not double rated. We had special permits from Vicroads to access these farms.

[AK83]

You will see lots of them around the western suburbs, mainly around the ring road.
Like loanrangie said, most are primarily containers(boxes), but there are lots of Cleanaway doing Dandenong to Truganinna run.
The Cleanaway rigs are an awesome sight to watch getting unloaded at the land fill.
They don't have the hydraulics to dump their own load, so they get loaded onto a ramp(called a Columbia) and they're tipped. The look like they're about 20m in the air when getting tippeed.
Considering the quagmire at the landfill ... amazing how it hasn't toppled over yet.

When they first started we called them Super B's .. don't why folks stopped calling them that, and blokes look at you funny when you use the term now.


I can't remember when they stopped, but a for a few years Ford had B-triples(to A trailers and a B trailer) running from Geelong to Campbellfield, and IIRC Ceva were doing it.
I recently saw one along the Ring Road, just can't remember what company was running it .. strange to see one again.

[Tins]

When they first started we called them Super B's .. don't why folks stopped calling them that, and blokes look at you funny when you use the term now.

Super Bs don't have a dolly and therefore are not the same. They are really just a B, but with a 40' A trailer. I still call them that btw.

A Doubles are classified as 'trains' I think because they DO have a dolly.

https://www.nhvr.gov.au/files/201409-0155-classes-of-heavy-vehicles.pdf



I can't remember when they stopped, but a for a few years Ford had B-triples(to A trailers and a B trailer) running from Geelong to Campbellfield, and IIRC Ceva were doing it.
I recently saw one along the Ring Road, just can't remember what company was running it .. strange to see one again.

The Ford ones had to follow a very specific route. They stopped when the Falcon did, in 2016. Yes, it was Ceva.

[V8Ian]

Correct John, we have quad/quad super Bs, working PoB, with steerable B trailers. They can negotiate a roundabout with the same agility as a single.

[Tins]

Correct John, we have quad/quad super Bs, working PoB, with steerable B trailers. They can negotiate a roundabout with the same agility as a single.

I'd love to see the steerable B in action. Is it a bit like a jinker type of thing ( if you get my drift )?

[V8Ian]

I'd love to see the steerable B in action. Is it a bit like a jinker type of thing ( if you get my drift )?
More like a steerable float, John. All happens automatically, I believe from an actuator in the throat of the tt. All the steerable thinkers I've had anything to do with, required input from another operator up the back. I suppose technically, the junker could be operated, remotely by the driver, but it would be a handful manoeuvring both ends independently.

[Tins]

More like a steerable float, John. All happens automatically, I believe from an actuator in the throat of the tt. All the steerable thinkers I've had anything to do with, required input from another operator up the back. I suppose technically, the junker could be operated, remotely by the driver, but it would be a handful manoeuvring both ends independently.

Yeah, I get that. Jinkers are a PITA. I was trying to think of a comparison to older tech. I guess the NYFD type hook and ladder trucks with a bloke up the back would have been closer. Tipping the auto thing through the tt is more efficient....[bigwhistle] Does the whole quad thing turn, or do the individual axles steer? I'm thinking mobile crane ( Liebherr), but not so dramatic.

[V8Ian]

Yeah, I get that. Jinkers are a PITA. I was trying to think of a comparison to older tech. I guess the NYFD type hook and ladder trucks with a bloke up the back would have been closer. Tipping the auto thing through the tt is more efficient....[bigwhistle] Does the whole quad thing turn, or do the individual axles steer? I'm thinking mobile crane ( Liebherr), but not so dramatic.
I think the entire suspension group on some (tri?) Or the rear two axles of a quad.

[V8Ian]

Super Bs don't have a dolly and therefore are not the same. They are really just a B, but with a 40' A trailer. I still call them that btw.

A Doubles are classified as 'trains' I think because they DO have a dolly.

https://www.nhvr.gov.au/files/201409-0155-classes-of-heavy-vehicles.pdf




The Ford ones had to follow a very specific route. They stopped when the Falcon did, in 2016. Yes, it was Ceva.
Regardless of the classification, we're not allowed to mention the train word, lest we put the fear of God into the masses.

[Tins]

I think the entire suspension group on some (tri?) Or the rear two axles of a quad.

I repeat, I'd love to see it in action. The whole problem with Super Bs is just how bloody wide you have to go to get around. With councils etc putting in more and more bloody roundabouts even an ordinary B is hard. Steerable back trailers would be awesome.

[spie]

Jumping in here rather than starting an entire thread but???<br><br>I'm all over the flashing high beams to let you know i'm safe distance behind you and to let you in/out of a lane but what's the go when you come up behind me and have more power?&nbsp; Just read an article saying I should put my right side blinker on but surely the left side would show more intent for me to stay in the left so you can come on through?

[Tins]

Jumping in here rather than starting an entire thread but???<br><br>I'm all over the flashing high beams to let you know i'm safe distance behind you and to let you in/out of a lane but what's the go when you come up behind me and have more power?&nbsp; Just read an article saying I should put my right side blinker on but surely the left side would show more intent for me to stay in the left so you can come on through?

My understanding is that right signalling that it's safe to overtake is highly frowned upon. The use of LHS blinker is possibly better, as long as you take into consideration that trucks will often use that to signal a hazard, such as a cyclist or a roadside object, to a following truck.

Flashing headlights to signal it's clear to come back into the lane is just one of the many courtesies trucks use that are not understood by most motorists. That's not intended as a negative criticism. If a motorist doesn't need to use it then they don't actually need to understand it. However, it would be nice if more people DID understand it. It would make the interaction between trucks and, for example, holiday traffic much more pleasant.

[Tote]

My understanding is that right signalling that it's safe to overtake is highly frowned upon. The use of LHS blinker is possibly better, as long as you take into consideration that trucks will often use that to signal a hazard, such as a cyclist or a roadside object, to a following truck.

Flashing headlights to signal it's clear to come back into the lane is just one of the many courtesies trucks use that are not understood by most motorists. That's not intended as a negative criticism. If a motorist doesn't need to use it then they don't actually need to understand it. However, it would be nice if more people DID understand it. It would make the interaction between trucks and, for example, holiday traffic much more pleasant.

With both my girls as they were learning to drive on the Hume Highway as part of their 120 hours of L plate time I showed them how to flash to let trucks know its safe to return to the left hand lane and they were most chuffed to get the right-left flash of blinkers from the truck in acknowledgement. Just one little bit of extra goodwill to professional drivers and an understanding of the reason behind it. It happens quite frequently when you are travelling at 90 on Sesame Street so they get plenty of practice on the loop that we usually take.

Regards,
Tote

[Tins]

With both my girls as they were learning to drive on the Hume Highway as part of their 120 hours of L plate time I showed them how to flash to let trucks know its safe to return to the left hand lane and they were most chuffed to get the right-left flash of blinkers from the truck in acknowledgement. Just one little bit of extra goodwill to professional drivers and an understanding of the reason behind it. It happens quite frequently when you are travelling at 90 on Sesame Street so they get plenty of practice on the loop that we usually take.

Regards,
Tote

Well done sir. That sort of thing is also very much appreciated by the truckie, and helps promote cooperation, something sorely need on the roads. I'm glad that the truckies acknowledge the courtesy. Not all will, of course, but they are in the minority.

[spie]

So yes to the headlight flash to let you know that you are clear behind and can slot in front of me but still not sure about the amber flashers? I signal left to let you know i'm aware and you are balls open to the right or or signal right like i'm going to cut you off???

I honestly want to know, have been doing the flashy hi beam thing since i was on l plates and anything else i can help smooth traffic is golden

[Tins]

So yes to the headlight flash to let you know that you are clear behind and can slot in front of me but still not sure about the amber flashers? I signal left to let you know i'm aware and you are balls open to the right or or signal right like i'm going to cut you off???

I honestly want to know, have been doing the flashy hi beam thing since i was on l plates and anything else i can help smooth traffic is golden

Like I said, my understanding is that the use of RHS signal is taboo. I have been told that it's illegal but I have no actual evidence of this. The reasoning is that if you do signal, and an accident ensues, you could be held partially liable. Ultimately the onus is on the vehicle doing the overtaking to ensure the safety of doing so. It's really a mater of choice and common sense, I guess. I never signalled the safety of overtaking, but would endeavour to signal if it was UNsafe IMO. I was happy to talk someone past using the CB though. This is for trucks, of course. The performance differential meant I never concerned myself with cars, other than to let them by without obstruction.

[DiscoMick]

The onus is always on the overtaking driver to do so safely.
Good discussion here:
Road Train Etiquette - The Grey Nomads Forum (https://thegreynomads.activeboard.com/t64658586/road-train-etiquette/?page=2)

[ATH]

I always let truck drivers know when they're safely past and can come in front of me. But I never indicate to others it's safe to overtake and never take any notice of others using their indicators to indicate something to me ... who knows what half the time and I make my own mind up.
Overtaking when it's safe is up to the driver doing it. I really can't understand the confusion in WA that a roundabout causes to so many including our supposedly highly trained police. I see many of them who are really not much better than the average driver but we do live near the police academy so see many under going training etc.
AlanH.

[austastar]

Hi,
"G'day west bound heavy, over take my camper at your discression and I'll back off when you are along side".
Gets a wig-wag on the indicators most times.
Cheers

[Tins]

The onus is always on the overtaking driver to do so safely.
Good discussion here:
Road Train Etiquette - The Grey Nomads Forum (https://thegreynomads.activeboard.com/t64658586/road-train-etiquette/?page=2)

Thanks, Mick. That blog merely confirms what I have always thought. There is a massive discord, an ignorance rife amongst drivers, all of us. My opinions stem from my experience, and the bloke with the van's opinions stem from his. This topic is one of my pet hobbyhorses, so be warned.

How do we educate the bloke towing the van about trucks? How do we educate the bloke in the truck about caravans? How do we educate new drivers about pretty much anything they'll encounter?

People are given a "licence" after jumping through a few hoops. Vic have this 120 hour thing. Some folk take it seriously ( take a bow, Tote ....I know, NSW... didn't know NSW had the same idea, if 'idea' is what it is) and some will sign off while sitting on the couch watching footy. But there are innumerable instances of deaths caused by ignorance, and more importantly, fear, exhibited by drivers. One of the worst days of my life ( not really, but.. ) was watching my son drive off in the car I had given him when he first got his licence.

Driving is ****ing dangerous but we accept it as a fact of life that we can all do it. I haven't driven anything bigger than a Disco in five years. My Licence is still MC, so I could drive anything that DL covers tomorrow. Should I? I don't know, so maybe I should be checked.., but I won't be.

I have stated here before, I believe a sort of graded licence, like that the pilots get, should be in force. Something that granny can use to get to the shops, up to road train, with increments in between, with training and then endorsement for highway, freeway, towing, night time, long distance, city.... etc..
I know that it would be politically dog****, I know nobody wants to pay the price, but we expect pilots to get endorsed from type to type, with regular medicals. We expect people who drive boats to be competent. Both flying and boating are WAY less dangerous than driving.

Nuff from me

[Arapiles]

With both my girls as they were learning to drive on the Hume Highway as part of their 120 hours of L plate time I showed them how to flash to let trucks know its safe to return to the left hand lane and they were most chuffed to get the right-left flash of blinkers from the truck in acknowledgement. Just one little bit of extra goodwill to professional drivers and an understanding of the reason behind it. It happens quite frequently when you are travelling at 90 on Sesame Street so they get plenty of practice on the loop that we usually take.

Regards,
Tote


My 17 year old had her first run on a highway yesterday - the Western Highway up to Horsham - and she got cut off by B-Doubles twice when merging right at the end of an overtaking lane. There was no call for it, we were doing 90, had Ls prominently displayed, a couple of other cars had overtaken and both trucks sat back behind us in clear space for most of the double lane section and then, when we hit the 500m mark and indicated to move right, decided to overtake. In the first one we nearly ended up in the trees because she ran out of road. Their driving was ****ing idiotic and dangerous and because of the length of those things, if they do decide to pass it makes the period before you can move to the right even longer.

Edit: a quick map check indicates that the overtaking lanes are nearly 2km long - and they sat 200m behind us, in the right lane and with no other vehicles in front of them, for most of that on each occasion.

[Tins]

My 17 year old had her first run on a highway yesterday - the Western Highway up to Horsham - and she got cut off by B-Doubles twice when merging right at the end of an overtaking lane. There was no call for it, we were doing 90, had Ls prominently displayed, a couple of other cars had overtaken and both trucks sat back behind us in clear space for most of the double lane section and then, when we hit the 500m mark and indicated to move right, decided to overtake. In the first one we nearly ended up in the trees because she ran out of road. Their driving was ****ing idiotic and dangerous and because of the length of those things, if they do decide to pass it makes the period before you can move to the right even longer.

Edit: a quick map check indicates that the overtaking lanes are nearly 2km long - and they sat 200m behind us, in the right lane and with no other vehicles in front of them, for most of that on each occasion.

Sigh.. Written by one who has absolutely no idea about trucks, overtaking, and the possibility that he might actually be wrong. And yet he presumes to teach.

A B-double is at least 25 metres long. It accelerates at a snails pace, it is speed limited, those overtaking lanes might seem long to a car driver, but believe me they are not ( I have a long experience with that piece of road ). I'm not sure what you wish to have happen with "L" displayed. The whole process of learning to drive is for people to gain experience. Would you like for your kids to gain "experience" by having them treated with kid gloves? If so, what then happens to them when they go out without the "L"? You won't be there to hold their hand, and nobody is going to give a "P" plater an inch. Surely it's better for them to learn the real world, and not some confected fantasy? They can die out there, Arapiles. Teach them that.

While we are at it, teach them that sitting on 90 for k after k, and then worrying about a truck sitting behind, maybe it's YOU that has an input. Teach them to interact, learn something about the needs of other road users... you might just learn something yourself, if that's possible.

[scarry]

My 17 year old had her first run on a highway yesterday - the Western Highway up to Horsham - and she got cut off by B-Doubles twice when merging right at the end of an overtaking lane. There was no call for it, we were doing 90, had Ls prominently displayed, a couple of other cars had overtaken and both trucks sat back behind us in clear space for most of the double lane section and then, when we hit the 500m mark and indicated to move right, decided to overtake. In the first one we nearly ended up in the trees because she ran out of road. Their driving was ****ing idiotic and dangerous and because of the length of those things, if they do decide to pass it makes the period before you can move to the right even longer.

Edit: a quick map check indicates that the overtaking lanes are nearly 2km long - and they sat 200m behind us, in the right lane and with no other vehicles in front of them, for most of that on each occasion.

What I would have done is slowed down and let them go past earlier.I wouldn’t want them sitting on my tail anyway,they won’t hold you up.
The vehicle in the merging lane has to give way.

You were more than likely sitting on 90 as per speedo,which is probably around 85 km/ hr actual.
I bet the trucks will be doing at least 90 actual,probably 92km/hr,so quite a bit faster.

The young ones( and many others)need to realise this.

In Qld,most trucks will sit on 100 to 105 km/ hr actual.
So if Johnny is driving his car at 100 km/ hr as per speedo,he is actually doing around 95km/hr,so around 10 km/ hr less than some trucks.

FWIW,one of my brothers has a stock Outlander,the actual vehicle speed at 100km/hr as per speedo,is 93 km/ hr.
I recon that’s dangerous,and unnecessary,it should be more accurate than that.

Anyway,just my 2 cents worth…..

[Arapiles]

Sigh.. Written by one who has absolutely no idea about trucks, overtaking, and the possibility that he might actually be wrong. And yet he presumes to teach.


So, a truck runs an L plater off the road and I'm in the wrong?

FWIW, he started waggling his indicators after he passed, so I'm guessing that was intended as some kind of apology given that we ended up in the dirt.



A B-double is at least 25 metres long. It accelerates at a snails pace, it is speed limited, those overtaking lanes might seem long to a car driver, but believe me they are not ( I have a long experience with that piece of road ). I'm not sure what you wish to have happen with "L" displayed. The whole process of learning to drive is for people to gain experience. Would you like for your kids to gain "experience" by having them treated with kid gloves? If so, what then happens to them when they go out without the "L"? You won't be there to hold their hand, and nobody is going to give a "P" plater an inch. Surely it's better for them to learn the real world, and not some confected fantasy? They can die out there, Arapiles. Teach them that.

While we are at it, teach them that sitting on 90 for k after k, and then worrying about a truck sitting behind, maybe it's YOU that has an input. Teach them to interact, learn something about the needs of other road users... you might just learn something yourself, if that's possible.


The Western Highway is now dual-carriageway until Buangor - we stayed on the highway after that but we were pulling over to let vehicles behind us through.

And I pointed out to her a side road where a mate from school was killed when he was 18.

[ATH]

Following on from my previous comments and illegal use of indicators etc., a mate of mine was on the southern end of the Great Northern Hwy on his motorbike years ago when he got the right hand signal it was safe to overtake, so he did. Smack into the side of the truck/van as it turned right. Luckily he wasn't badly hurt but it certainly made him ignore that sort of signal in the future.
Has anyone else ever had anyone profess to thinking that pulling into the right hand lane to let trucks through on the left so they don't have to move the steering wheel is the right thing to do?
I've had 2 very stupid van towers reckon that this is OK..... as an act of complete stupidity I reckon it takes some beating.
AlanH.

[V8Ian]

So, a truck runs an L plater off the road and I'm in the wrong?

FWIW, he started waggling his indicators after he passed, so I'm guessing that was intended as some kind of apology given that we ended up in the dirt.





The Western Highway is now dual-carriageway until Buangor - we stayed on the highway after that but we were pulling over to let vehicles behind us through.

And I pointed out to her a side road where a mate from school was killed when he was 18.
I'm guessing it was a thank-you for travelling below the speed limit, to let him past. As John said, B doubles don't accelerate like a car; he probably buried the slipper at the start of the overtaking lane.

[Arapiles]

Following on from my previous comments and illegal use of indicators etc., a mate of mine was on the southern end of the Great Northern Hwy on his motorbike years ago when he got the right hand signal it was safe to overtake, so he did. Smack into the side of the truck/van as it turned right. Luckily he wasn't badly hurt but it certainly made him ignore that sort of signal in the future.
Has anyone else ever had anyone profess to thinking that pulling into the right hand lane to let trucks through on the left so they don't have to move the steering wheel is the right thing to do?
I've had 2 very stupid van towers reckon that this is OK..... as an act of complete stupidity I reckon it takes some beating.
AlanH.

No, but on the last trip by myself I had two different sets of pensioners turn onto the highway in front of me at 60kmh.