Rodent baits and their effect on native fauna

[Tote]

It's been a tough year with mice and rats, we've done two lots of baiting in town using TomKat type baits and have had a scare when small white dog ate a baited mouse a couple of weeks ago. Luckily he survived without any side effects.
On the farm we put out baits (screwed to shed timbers) and they were all gone in a week, we rebaited a couple of weeks later and they have only been nibbled a bit which is the usual state they are in for most of the year.
We did find a freshly dead rat outside the shearing shed the other week and thought no more of it and it was gone a couple of days later and we assumed a fox ate it, in which case then secondary poisoning was not an issue but I wonder what the impact is on native wildlife, particularly birds of prey.
We are lucky to have a few wedge tail eagles around the farm (I put my drone up a few weeks ago and very quickly had company of the wedge tail kind making me withdraw) but aside from the odd rat that didn't make it under cover to die we're not large scale baiters.
With the current plague further west does anyone have any experience of the effects of crop baiting on the bird life?

Random gratuitous drone footage here Mayfield 5 - Flyover western side - YouTube (https://youtu.be/k0p4ufao7u8)

Regards,
Tote

[V8Ian]

I read, the other day, that the Fed's denied NSW's request to approve a certain type of poison* to combat the current mouse plague.

* I don't recall the scientific name, but it's a poison that blocks the production of vitamin K resulting in death by internal bleeding.
Ratsac is the domestic version, which shares its main component with a blood thinning medication.

I think I read it on the digital ABC news site, if you want to search.

[Tote]

Ratsack is based on warfarin which is an older generation poison, it relies on rodents having multiple feeds. Newer poisons like TomKat are more effective because they only require one feed to kill but the undigested poison is an issue with secondary poisoning. I don't know much about the zinc phosphide baits that they are using on crops to kill he mice though as we don't need to use them

Regards,
Tote

[Eevo]

i know very little about mouse/rat plagues

whats the solution? mass baiting on a statewide scale?

[V8Ian]

Ratsack is based on warfarin which is an older generation poison, it relies on rodents having multiple feeds. Newer poisons like TomKat are more effective because they only require one feed to kill but the undigested poison is an issue with secondary poisoning. I don't know much about the zinc phosphide baits that they are using on crops to kill he mice though as we don't need to use them

Regards,
Tote
I may be confusing my poisons. I thought (assumed) that all Ratsack products used the same active ingredient (Warfarin). Our supermarkets are currently short of mousetrap and poisons. The last baits I purchased (square tablets), state that it kills mice and rats with a single feed, so possibly a different ingredient to the previous (pellets) I obtained.

[Slunnie]

I read, the other day, that the Fed's denied NSW's request to approve a certain type of poison* to combat the current mouse plague.

* I don't recall the scientific name, but it's a poison that blocks the production of vitamin K resulting in death by internal bleeding.
Ratsac is the domestic version, which shares its main component with a blood thinning medication.

I think I read it on the digital ABC news site, if you want to search.

Yes, my dog is great at sniffing out and eating mouse bait. Needless to say I now use traps. I was using Tomcat which has Bromadiolone that blocks Vitamin K which prevents blood clotting.

The antidote to that mouse poison is vitamin K tablets for a month.

[V8Ian]

Yes, my dog is great at sniffing out and eating mouse bait. Needless to say I now use traps. I was using Tomcat which has Bromadiolone that blocks Vitamin K which prevents blood clotting.

The antidote to that mouse poison is vitamin K tablets for a month.
Or generous portions of broccoli or other dark green veggies. That also plays havoc with INRs when prescribed warfarin.

[Slunnie]

Or generous portions of broccoli or other dark green veggies. That also plays havoc with INRs when prescribed warfarin.

Surprisingly, she will eat Broccoli too!

I just had a look, Ratsack and Talon have Bromadiolone also, so it is Vit K for them also as an antidote.

[V8Ian]

Are Bromadiolone and Warfarin the same chemical, or different with the same result?

[350RRC]

I read, the other day, that the Fed's denied NSW's request to approve a certain type of poison* to combat the current mouse plague.

* I don't recall the scientific name, but it's a poison that blocks the production of vitamin K resulting in death by internal bleeding.
Ratsac is the domestic version, which shares its main component with a blood thinning medication.

I think I read it on the digital ABC news site, if you want to search.

No, no and no.

The AVPMA blocked the use of brodione in NSW. They are the non-political body overseeing the use of pesticides and herbicides in Oz.

There are two types of rodenticides, type 1 (like Ratsak... warfurin) and type 2 (brodifacoum, brodiolone, etc).

The type 2's have a very long half life and will kill birds of prey that feed on poisoned carcasses.

Good marketing, supermarket shelves empty of the 'one hit type 2's' every year from April on around here when rats and mice become a problem when they move indoors. Skies empty of swamp harriers, whistling kites, etc around here compared with 10 years ago.

Type 2's are apparently banned in the EU and even the US because of the effect they have on the natural predators that prey on rats and mice.

Ratsak double strength (warfurin) works fine and won't do so much collateral damage.

Only speaking from experience. DL

[Slunnie]

Are Bromadiolone and Warfarin the same chemical, or different with the same result?

Funny you should ask that. I think they're different, the Bromadiolone seems to be faster acting.

I just read this:


Long-acting anticoagulants (LAACs) are the most common and well known type of mouse and rat poisons. This type of poison prevents the blood from clotting, resulting in internal bleeding. Long-acting anticoagulants work similarly to the “blood thinner” medications that people take (e.g., warfarin or Coumadin®). When dogs or cats ingest LAACs, it typically takes 3-5 days before signs of poisoning are visible. However, if the pet has been chronically exposed to the product, the onset of clinical signs may be sooner. Common signs of poisoning include signs of internal bleeding: lethargy, exercise intolerance, coughing, difficulty breathing (due to bleeding into the lungs), weakness, and pale gums. Less common signs include vomiting, diarrhea (with or without blood), nose bleeds, bruising, bloody urine, swollen joints, inappetence, and bleeding from the gums.


Fortunately, this specific type of mouse and rat poison does have a prescription antidote called Vitamin K1. Over-the-counter medications or food with high vitamin K content will not be sufficient substitutes. Most pets need to be treated with Vitamin K1 for 30 days. Two days after the last dose of Vitamin K1 is administered, a blood clotting test called a prothrombin (PT) should be checked to make sure the clotting is normal; otherwise, your pet can still potentially bleed out despite one month of therapy!


The dose needed to cause poisoning from LAACs varies greatly between active ingredients and species of animal. With some types (e.g., brodifacoum), it only takes a very small amount to cause poisoning, especially in dogs. Other types have a wider margin of safety (e.g., bromadiolone) and it takes a larger amount to cause poisoning. In general, cats are typically quite resistant to the effects of LAACs and often require a much higher dose than dogs to cause poisoning. The age and health of the pet may be another factor determining whether or not the amount ingested will be poisonous. Animals with underlying liver or gastrointestinal disease, as well as the very young or very old, are more at risk.

[Tins]

https://www.birc.org/RaptorQ.pdf

[350RRC]

Funny you should ask that. I think they're different, the Bromadiolone seems to be faster acting.

I just read this:

If you value native birds of prey don't use it.

It's an economic issue in the longer term, but very much an environmental one now.

DL

[Tins]

If you value native birds of prey don't use it.

It's an economic issue in the longer term, but very much an environmental one now.

DL

Perhaps there's a case for feral cats after all...

[Tombie]

Perhaps there's a case for feral cats after all...

Having seen some feral cats, they would take down all but the largest Birds of prey.

[101RRS]

No, no and no.

The AVPMA blocked the use of brodione in NSW. They are the non-political body overseeing the use of pesticides and herbicides in Oz.



Of course they are a political body - in fact they are a Federal Statutory Authority coming under the Agriculture Department. Now they normally operate independently but can be over ridden by the relevant Federal Minister if required - they were the agency that Barnaby moved to his electorate a few years back - you can look it up as the reason was political and we cannot talk politics here.

[Slunnie]

If you value native birds of prey don't use it.

It's an economic issue in the longer term, but very much an environmental one now.

DL

They're not a problem where I lay the baits, none of it is outside and it is hopefully where other animals cant get to it... except my dog is a ninja. I now generally use cage traps and buckets.

[Tins]

Having seen some feral cats, they would take down all but the largest Birds of prey.

Sure. Some of the cats I've seen could possibly take down a feral goat. It's about percentages I guess.

The feral animal population is now done and dusted. Nothing we can do to put it back as it was, and therefore get over it and move on. Us whitefellas are the most feral of them all.

[bob10]

Here is the story of the independent authority the APVMA [ Australian Pesticides and Veterinary Medicines Authority ] rejecting the NSW government application. And the reason scientists are worried about the use of Bromadiolone.


Bromadiolone poison to control mouse plague rejected for use by APVMA - ABC News (https://www.abc.net.au/news/rural/2021-06-23/bromadiolone-mouse-plague-poison-rejected-for-use/100218864?utm_source=sfmc%e2%80%8b%e2%80%8b&utm_medium=email%e2%80%8b%e2%80%8b&utm_campaign=abc_rural_news_sfmc%e2%80%8b%e2%80%8b&utm_term=%e2%80%8b&utm_id=1665906%e2%80%8b%e2%80%8b&sfmc_id=111653741)





NSW mouse plague to be fought with ‘napalm’ like bromadiolone. So, what is it and should you be worried? - ABC News (https://www.abc.net.au/news/rural/2021-05-18/bromadiolone-explainer-napalm-mice-plague-nsw/100139426)

[Saitch]

We don't use baits, for animal safety reasons. We have a lot of carnivorous birds, such as maggies, kookies, butchies, Pacific bazas, owls, nightjars, several hawks/harriers and a family of wedgies., not to mention our resident snakes.

Another reason is that we have a good population of antechinus and a few phascogales, whose diets quite often include rodents.

[Tombie]

Sure. Some of the cats I've seen could possibly take down a feral goat. It's about percentages I guess.

The feral animal population is now done and dusted. Nothing we can do to put it back as it was, and therefore get over it and move on. Us whitefellas are the most feral of them all.

That statement may have been true 100 years ago.
Based on where I’ve worked and travelled I’d say the earlier occupants show very little respect for the land either. It’s well documented that entire species and ecosystems were destroyed by their early practices.

Feral animals are controlled quite well by Sporting shooters/hunters and an important part of maintaining a balance of sorts.

What is important is how we move forward collaboratively.

[Saitch]

A Dingo is a feral animal!

[Tombie]

A Dingo is a feral animal!

Yep, and there are shooters paid to control population.

[Tins]

Cane toads, myna birds, fallow deer, rabbits and foxes are controlled? There are more feral pigs in this country than there are people. There are maybe 3 million feral goats. Water buffalo are also very numerous and are also an invasive species. I reckon there's a fair way to go before we can say we've got feral animals controlled.

[Tombie]

Imagine if there weren’t shooters though [emoji41]

[Saitch]

Yep, and there are shooters paid to control population.

.........but they're also 'Protected', to a certain extent!

[DiscoMick]

My vet relative says stocks of vitamin K are exhausted because large amounts have been used to treat dogs and other animals which have become ill after eating poisoned mice during the plague.
Huge doses of vitamin K are the treatment - it can cost $1000 to treat a dog, which could die anyway. So keep your pets away from dead mice.

[Grumbles]

Feral animals are controlled quite well by Sporting shooters/hunters and an important part of maintaining a balance of sorts.

Quite true but there are some outstanding anomolies in this area. In Victoria recreational hunters are allowed in some parts of National Parks to hunt deer and they do a good job....BUT.... when in these Parks hunting deer if they shoot any other wild species aka dogs, pigs, cats, foxes, goats, rabbits etc then they have breached regulations and in prosecution danger of losing their Game License, Firearm License and have all their firearms at home plus the one they used to shoot the vermin species seized and destroyed by the courts.

[Tombie]

.........but they're also 'Protected', to a certain extent!

Once an invasive species becomes naturalised it can be detrimental even further if that species is then removed.

[Tombie]

Quite true but there are some outstanding anomolies in this area. In Victoria recreational hunters are allowed in some parts of National Parks to hunt deer and they do a good job....BUT.... when in these Parks hunting deer if they shoot any other wild species aka dogs, pigs, cats, foxes, goats, rabbits etc then they have breached regulations and in prosecution danger of losing their Game License, Firearm License and have all their firearms at home plus the one they used to shoot the vermin species seized and destroyed by the courts.

Yes, that part is quite at odds with it all.

[350RRC]

They're not a problem where I lay the baits, none of it is outside and it is hopefully where other animals cant get to it... except my dog is a ninja. I now generally use cage traps and buckets.

Birds of prey, even magpies around here, die because they're eating the carcasses of rats and mice poisoned by the type 2's. They're not eating the actual bait.

The type 2's accumulate in the birds because of really long half lives, compared with type 1's like warfurin and even pindone.

cheers, DL

[trout1105]

I use the baits I get from Landmark and they do diddly squat to any predators.
The feral cats and foxes are doing just fine after I have baited until they get in my crosshairs[thumbsupbig]

[scarry]

Imagine if there weren’t shooters though [emoji41]


It’s been documented many times,recreation,and sporting shooters generally only take a small percentage of vermin.

Apart from shooting from helicopters which is one of the more successful ways of culling some vermin and surprisingly cost effective.

But in many instances,there are way more effective ways of culling vermin than shooting.

Unfortunately some of the other ways involve poisons of one type or another.

Trapping,using dogs of different types for different types of vermin,are usually very successful.

Sure dogs can be used by shooters,and when they are,increase vermin eradication rates markedly.

[Tins]

Imagine if there weren’t shooters though [emoji41]

Indeed. I don't shoot personally, but I am a member of the SSA. The goat problem is largely due to the farmer's control of dingoes and wild dogs on sheep pastures. Where the dog population isn't so controlled you get far fewer goats. I doubt the pig population will ever be controlled, and as for cane toads and myna birds, well....

It was always going to happen and we might as well get used to it. It is completely risible to think man can control nature, but there are $billions available for those who can convince folk that they can, so of course they claim they can. It's high time people woke up.

[Tins]

It’s been documented many times,recreation,and sporting shooters generally only take a small percentage of vermin.

Apart from shooting from helicopters which is one of the more successful ways of culling some vermin and surprisingly cost effective.

But in many instances,there are way more effective ways of culling vermin than shooting.

Unfortunately some of the other ways involve poisons of one type or another.

Trapping,using dogs of different types for different types of vermin,are usually very successful.

Sure dogs can be used by shooters,and when they are,increase vermin eradication rates markedly.

I don't disagree in general. but I don't see these strategies dealing with the approx 25,000,000 feral pigs Australia is home to.

[Saitch]

Indeed. I don't shoot personally, but I am a member of the SSA. The goat problem is largely due to the farmer's control of dingoes and wild dogs on sheep pastures. Where the dog population isn't so controlled you get far fewer goats. I doubt the pig population will ever be controlled, and as for cane toads and myna birds, well....

It was always going to happen and we might as well get used to it. It is completely risible to think man can control nature, but there are $billions available for those who can convince folk that they can, so of course they claim they can. It's high time people woke up.

Where do I apply?

[V8Ian]

Where do I apply?
Place a deposit in my Nigerian account and I'll send instructions.

[scarry]

I don't disagree in general. but I don't see these strategies dealing with the approx 25,000,000 feral pigs Australia is home to.

Yes,I agree,it’s a huge problem,I have been shooting them for over 45 yrs.

Shooters from helicopters work well in some areas,as does poisoned grain,but the pigs come back very quickly.

Traps also work reasonable well.

But all this is only putting a very small dent in the overall population.

The drought really knocked them in western Qld,but they are coming back,same as the Roos.

[Tote]

The pig problem in particular is not helped by “hunters” relocating pigs closer to home and releasing them
Regards
Tote

[Fourgearsticks]

The pig problem in particular is not helped by “hunters” relocating pigs closer to home and releasing them
Regards
Tote

When the bounty was introduced into NSW feral pigs turned up in areas they had never been seen before, proves there are more than a few irresponsible shooters.
On a separate note it's good to see local councils supporting weekend shooters by placing sighting targets on the roadside (roadsigns) for them. Also some locals are a help providing letterbox's/roos/and sometimes stock in roadside paddocks as targets. Roadside spotlighters are a big problem in some areas, long weekends being the most dangerous time. We have had shooters from the road sending rounds close to the house, also leaving wounded/dead stock/roos in roadside paddocks.

[350RRC]

When the bounty was introduced into NSW feral pigs turned up in areas they had never been seen before, proves there are more than a few irresponsible shooters.
On a separate note it's good to see local councils supporting weekend shooters by placing sighting targets on the roadside (roadsigns) for them. Also some locals are a help providing letterbox's/roos/and sometimes stock in roadside paddocks as targets. Roadside spotlighters are a big problem in some areas, long weekends being the most dangerous time. We have had shooters from the road sending rounds close to the house, also leaving wounded/dead stock/roos in roadside paddocks.

Been involved with the local landcare group re: rabbits. They've got a new gate sign that has a rabbit with a red circle around it with the slash across, as in no rabbits.

If I put one up I'll report back!

Been awhile since I've seen a perforated sign on the Bellarine.

cheers, DL

[RANDLOVER]

.................It is completely risible to think man can control nature, but there are $billions available for those who can convince folk that they can, so of course they claim they can. It's high time people woke up.

When it comes to dingoes, I think the theory says, instead of the farmer trying to control the dingo breeding they rely on the alpha pack leader to do that for them.

[Grumbles]

It’s been documented many times,recreation,and sporting shooters generally only take a small percentage of vermin.

There was a time when foxes were nearly totally eradicated by shooters. This was when fox skins were big money earners aka one skin was worth some $60......and this was back in the 1980s so allowing for inflation that would be over $100 in todays terms. The market plummeted so shooters stopped chasing them so the foxes bred up again. The marker plummeted due to animal protectionist activities.

Away from farmlands in State Forests and National Parks the fox numbers have eroded to nearly a total wipe out. The cause is the wild dogs targeting both adult foxes and their pups as a food source.

Deer were mentioned in an earlier post. In Victoria hunters take some 120,000 sambar each year. That is a significant hit to their numbers.

[scarry]

There was a time when foxes were nearly totally eradicated by shooters. This was when fox skins were big money earners aka one skin was worth some $60......and this was back in the 1980s so allowing for inflation that would be over $100 in todays terms. The market plummeted so shooters stopped chasing them so the foxes bred up again. The marker plummeted due to animal protectionist activities.

Away from farmlands in State Forests and National Parks the fox numbers have eroded to nearly a total wipe out. The cause is the wild dogs targeting both adult foxes and their pups as a food source.

Deer were mentioned in an earlier post. In Victoria hunters take some 120,000 sambar each year. That is a significant hit to their numbers.

Foxes were no where near eradicated in the 80's in Qld,as we hunted them extensively.Shooting didnt seem to dent the population,same for cats.
Once 1080 was used,they dissapered,together with wild cats,but as soon as the baiting was stopped,they returned pretty quickly,same sort of numbers,even today.
The national parks here are full of foxes,cats,pigs and wild horses,and Dogs.The problem is huge in the northern areas of the state.
Qld NP needs a system like other states have to cull the vermin in our NP's.

Good to see Samabr numbers are being kept in check in Victoria,about 10% of the population shot by hunters each year.
But that is only in Vic,they are in many other areas of the country and need eradicating.

[350RRC]

Foxes were no where near eradicated in the 80's in Qld,as we hunted them extensively.Shooting didnt seem to dent the population,same for cats.
Once 1080 was used,they dissapered,together with wild cats,but as soon as the baiting was stopped,they returned pretty quickly,same sort of numbers,even today.
The national parks here are full of foxes,cats,pigs and wild horses,and Dogs.The problem is huge in the northern areas of the state.
Qld NP needs a system like other states have to cull the vermin in our NP's.

Good to see Samabr numbers are being kept in check in Victoria,about 10% of the population shot by hunters each year.
But that is only in Vic,they are in many other areas of the country and need eradicating.

Parks Vic have had the pros in with helicopters in the Grampians the last couple of years, pinging red deer and goats.

Can't say I've seen a lot of damage from either in over 60 years, but they don't belong there simple as that.

Have walked up to within about 10m of a 9 point stag once in the middle of nowhere there. He just stood and looked at me. Plenty of other close encounters, the deer were pretty tame. They walk right through D'Altons Resort in Halls Gap.

I was opposed to 'sporting' shooters having a season on them in the park unless all they got to use was a pocket knife. No way it would have been sporting using a gun.

I hope something useful happens with the carcasses.

DL

[Grumbles]

I hope something useful happens with the carcasses.

The meat from a deer taken from a carcass shot by a licensed recreational hunter can be given away to friends and relatives. It cannot be sold. Zoos will not take this meat either.

The deer shot by government employed pro cullers, usually from a chopper, are normally left to rot where they fell.

[Slunnie]

The meat from a deer taken from a carcass shot by a licensed recreational hunter can be given away to friends and relatives. It cannot be sold. Zoos will not take this meat either.

The deer shot by government employed pro cullers, usually from a chopper, are normally left to rot where they fell.

Is that due to lead poisoning?

[350RRC]

Is that due to lead poisoning?

Good point.

I do stuff for the state Gov that requires mega public liability and ethics. I'm not killing anything.

Can see the liability thing being an issue for the public service in their isolated offices, even using carcasses for pet food.

I cringe to think about the hoops the shooting contractors would have to go through before passing 'ethics' unless it was fast tracked. No way in Vic it would have been side tracked IME.

DL

[Grumbles]

Is that due to lead poisoning?

No. Several government departments including the Health Department get involved with a stack of regs regarding wild meat taken for the chillers. All meat products supplied to Zoos is expected to meet the same standards as if it was for human consumption. The same applies for meat for the pet food industry.

Many bullets these days have no lead in them. They can be constructed from a composite of various metals or even are just solid copper.

[350RRC]

No. Several government departments including the Health Department get involved with a stack of regs regarding wild meat taken for the chillers. All meat products supplied to Zoos is expected to meet the same standards as if it was for human consumption. The same applies for meat for the pet food industry.

Many bullets these days have no lead in them. They can be constructed from a composite of various metals or even are just solid copper.

It'd take the public service 10 years to realise the copper bullet thing.

DL

[Tombie]

When the bounty was introduced into NSW feral pigs turned up in areas they had never been seen before, proves there are more than a few irresponsible shooters.
On a separate note it's good to see local councils supporting weekend shooters by placing sighting targets on the roadside (roadsigns) for them. Also some locals are a help providing letterbox's/roos/and sometimes stock in roadside paddocks as targets. Roadside spotlighters are a big problem in some areas, long weekends being the most dangerous time. We have had shooters from the road sending rounds close to the house, also leaving wounded/dead stock/roos in roadside paddocks.

Don’t lump those of us who are responsible in with the dumb ones.

Like all pastimes, there are always those who want to ruin it for others.

[Tombie]

Goats are prevalent everywhere around here.
Local land owners are quite happy though as they’re fetching more than Sheep at the moment.

I have access to several properties just out of town to shoot on. No shortage of foxes, cats, rabbits, goats etc to target.

A few hours drive gets access to Deer.

[DiscoMick]

My relative the vet jokes there must not be any dingoes left in NSW because no-one ever admits to shooting a dingo as they are protected, they always describe it as a wild dog, which are fair game.
He had one in his truck the other day when I saw him at Lismore as he had been called out to autopsy it after it was shot. I know you can't know just by looking, but we both reckoned it looked very much like a dingo, although it could be cross bred.
Our friends near Coffs have had to erect a dual line of electric fences along their river boundary to deter attacks on their cattle and goats from dogs coming across the river from the adjoining forest.
We're minding the property for a month while they have a much-needed holiday in Qld, so my daily duties include checking the fences with a little device to make sure they are still pumping out 8000 volts.
Last night we could hear howling from the forest and the farm dogs were agitated.

[scarry]

My relative the vet jokes there must not be any dingoes left in NSW because no-one ever admits to shooting a dingo as they are protected, they always describe it as a wild dog, which are fair game.
He had one in his truck the other day when I saw him at Lismore as he had been called out to autopsy it after it was shot. I know you can't know just by looking, but we both reckoned it looked very much like a dingo, although it could be cross bred.
Our friends near Coffs have had to erect a dual line of electric fences along their river boundary to deter attacks on their cattle and goats from dogs coming across the river from the adjoining forest.
We're minding the property for a month while they have a much-needed holiday in Qld, so my daily duties include checking the fences with a little device to make sure they are still pumping out 8000 volts.
Last night we could hear howling from the forest and the farm dogs were agitated.

There must be quite a few around in that area.
We only get one or two at the most a year,they are very very difficult to shoot.Very clever,fantastic hearing and smell.
Usually won’t take a bait.

There is a guy in town that gets them,usually in a trap,or shoots them,with the help of a bitch that is given an injection so she comes on heat.Being on heat will attract a wild bitch as well as a wild dog.
Once they pick up the on heat smell,they often let down their guard.

[trout1105]

My relative the vet jokes there must not be any dingoes left in NSW because no-one ever admits to shooting a dingo as they are protected, they always describe it as a wild dog, which are fair game.
He had one in his truck the other day when I saw him at Lismore as he had been called out to autopsy it after it was shot. I know you can't know just by looking, but we both reckoned it looked very much like a dingo, although it could be cross bred.
Our friends near Coffs have had to erect a dual line of electric fences along their river boundary to deter attacks on their cattle and goats from dogs coming across the river from the adjoining forest.
We're minding the property for a month while they have a much-needed holiday in Qld, so my daily duties include checking the fences with a little device to make sure they are still pumping out 8000 volts.
Last night we could hear howling from the forest and the farm dogs were agitated.

Dingo's are only protected in some national parks, Elsewhere they are fair game and can be shot.

[DiscoMick]

I don't know about the situation in WA.

In NSW, it seems dingoes are protected but wild dogs are not. Can a dingo be a wild dog? It seems to depend on if a declaration has been made.
Maybe someone can explain it better.

Wild dog policy | NSW Environment, Energy and Science (https://www.environment.nsw.gov.au/topics/parks-reserves-and-protected-areas/park-policies/wild-dogs)

Sent from my A1601 using AULRO mobile app (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=78345)

[trout1105]

I don't know about the situation in WA.

In NSW, it seems dingoes are protected but wild dogs are not. Can a dingo be a wild dog? It seems to depend on if a declaration has been made.
Maybe someone can explain it better.

Wild dog policy | NSW Environment, Energy and Science (https://www.environment.nsw.gov.au/topics/parks-reserves-and-protected-areas/park-policies/wild-dogs)

Sent from my A1601 using AULRO mobile app (http://r.tapatalk.com/byo?rid=78345)

In NSW Dingo's are regarded as wild dogs under the local land services act of 2013 and wild dogs are declared as noxious pest under that act so they cannot be protected under the biodiversity act of 2016.

[bob10]

This is interesting .

Hunting shown to contribute more to the economy than the wool industry in NSW - ABC News (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-07-01/hunting-economic-benefits/100248526?utm_source=sfmc%e2%80%8b%e2%80%8b&utm_medium=email%e2%80%8b%e2%80%8b&utm_campaign=abc_rural_news_sfmc%e2%80%8b%e2%80%8b&utm_term=%e2%80%8b&utm_id=1671611%e2%80%8b%e2%80%8b&sfmc_id=111653741)

[Grumbles]

This is interesting .

Hunting shown to contribute more to the economy than the wool industry in NSW - ABC News (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-07-01/hunting-economic-benefits/100248526?utm_source=sfmc%e2%80%8b%e2%80%8b&utm_medium=email%e2%80%8b%e2%80%8b&utm_campaign=abc_rural_news_sfmc%e2%80%8b%e2%80%8b&utm_term=%e2%80%8b&utm_id=1671611%e2%80%8b%e2%80%8b&sfmc_id=111653741)

In Victoria hunting contributes $439 Million to the economy per annum.
Nationally that figure expands to $2.4 Billion to the national economy from hunting.

[DiscoMick]

From my reading, it appears in NSW dingoes are controlled as wild dogs where they threaten livestock, but otherwise are left uncontrolled to fill their natural role as a top predator.

Wild dogs | NSW Environment, Energy and Science (https://www.environment.nsw.gov.au/topics/animals-and-plants/pest-animals-and-weeds/pest-animals/wild-dogs)

I didn't know anything about the WA situation so I went looking and found the link below. It says dingoes are wild dogs and WA policy is to control wild dogs in or near grazing areas, but to leave them undisturbed in other areas.

Wild dogs in Western Australia | Agriculture and Food (https://www.agric.wa.gov.au/state-barrier-fence/wild-dogs)


In NSW Dingo's are regarded as wild dogs under the local land services act of 2013 and wild dogs are declared as noxious pest under that act so they cannot be protected under the biodiversity act of 2016.

[350RRC]

This is interesting .

Hunting shown to contribute more to the economy than the wool industry in NSW - ABC News (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-07-01/hunting-economic-benefits/100248526?utm_source=sfmc%e2%80%8b%e2%80%8b&utm_medium=email%e2%80%8b%e2%80%8b&utm_campaign=abc_rural_news_sfmc%e2%80%8b%e2%80%8b&utm_term=%e2%80%8b&utm_id=1671611%e2%80%8b%e2%80%8b&sfmc_id=111653741)

No different from the arguments rec fishers put up.

Problem is if you look at everything they wear, all the equipment they use, the cars they drive, the fuel they use is all imported.

Pretty much all wool is exported. Just 'spin' so to speak.

DL

[Saitch]

No different from the arguments rec fishers put up.

Problem is if you look at everything they wear, all the equipment they use, the cars they drive, the fuel they use is all imported.

Pretty much all wool is exported. Just 'spin' so to speak.

DL

" all the equipment they use"............Bull****! Like a bloody lot of like minded fishos, my rods are built by a bloke in Clontarf, Qld, using Australian blanks and I mostly use Alvey reels. I will admit I do have a Shimano and a couple of Penn reels, too. Just supply, there.

The bloke in Clontarf was making up to 100 rods a month for a large, Australian rod 'Supplier'. A lot of these rods were for the South Australian fishing fraternity so, except for the line guides, all Aussie goodies.

W.A. pillies, local or self caught bait. Fishing line manufactured at Brendale, in Queensland!

Not much "Spin" there!



" the cars they drive"........I'll give you that one, as it's a bit difficult to just slip out and buy an Australian made, single cab, trayback fourbie, ay? Once again, supply!

[trout1105]

No different from the arguments rec fishers put up.

Problem is if you look at everything they wear, all the equipment they use, the cars they drive, the fuel they use is all imported.

Pretty much all wool is exported. Just 'spin' so to speak.

DL

I am sorry old Mate but you simply have no idea of just how important the recreational fisher is to the Australian economy.
YES much of the gear, boats and vehicals used are imported becaust that is the Only place to get them But they also attract excise that fuels the countries coffers.
Then we have the fuel excise, licencing (boats, cars, trailers and fishing licences) along with the money they spend on accomodation, food etc, We are talking about more than 3 million rec fishers here.

It is Definately not "Spin" it is a "Fact" that rec fishers pay an important part in the Australian economy.

[Grumbles]

Problem is if you look at everything they wear, all the equipment they use, the cars they drive, the fuel they use is all imported.

Pretty much all wool is exported. Just 'spin' so to speak.

DL

yes - that is true.....but........our exported iron ore is used to make those cars. It is Aussie jobs that sell the car, distribute and sell the fuel, , mechanics to repair/service the car, tyre sales jobs when the car needs tyres, builders to build the showrooms and workshops, GST tax dollars on every thing which goes to governments. The list of Aussie jobs which are created by the importation of a car is almost endless. The same can be said for all the equipment used by recreational fishos and shooters.

[Saitch]

I am sorry old Mate but you simply have no idea of just how important the recreational fisher is to the Australian economy.
YES much of the gear, boats and vehicals used are imported becaust that is the Only place to get them But they also attract excise that fuels the countries coffers.
Then we have the fuel excise, licencing (boats, cars, trailers and fishing licences) along with the money they spend on accomodation, food etc, We are talking about more than 3 million rec fishers here.

It is Definately not "Spin" it is a "Fact" that rec fishers pay an important part in the Australian economy.

Trout, you forgot the undying support given to the brewers!

On a serious note, look at the Australian boating industry. Many a world-class product available locally, unlike the auto industry. I would hazard a guess that the majority of boats used for recreational fishing in Australia are Oz built, by Oz owned companies.

[Tombie]

Aside from the vehicle I drive…

My firearms are made in Australia (Lithgow)
My Boat was made in Qld
My fishing gear comprises mostly made in Australia where possible.

As for the gear I wear when shooting, that would be my normal clothing [emoji2]

[trout1105]

Trout, you forgot the undying support given to the brewers!

On a serious note, look at the Australian boating industry. Many a world-class product available locally, unlike the auto industry. I would hazard a guess that the majority of boats used for recreational fishing in Australia are Oz built, by Oz owned companies.

I couldn't agree more, Australia makes fantastic hulls (Quintrex for example) and if you look around at the boat ramp the vast majority of boats and trailers you see are built right here But sadly the electronics and motors unfortunately come mainly from overseas manufacturers.

[Tombie]

No different from the arguments rec fishers put up.

Problem is if you look at everything they wear, all the equipment they use, the cars they drive, the fuel they use is all imported.

Pretty much all wool is exported. Just 'spin' so to speak.

DL

How are the Sheep mustered?

In helicopters and vehicles - imported [emoji3]
Fuel - imported
Remote site Gensets- imported

[bob10]

What happens if you let dingoes thrive on a cattle station. One man's controversial dingo solution.

Dingoes are considered a pest in much of regional Australia. But what happens if you let them thrive? - ABC News (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-06-25/farmers-suggest-changing-regional-australia-approach-to-dingoes/100147468?utm_source=sfmc%e2%80%8b%e2%80%8b&utm_medium=email%e2%80%8b%e2%80%8b&utm_campaign=abc_rural_roundup_sfmc_20210702%e2%80 %8b%e2%80%8b&utm_term=%e2%80%8b&utm_id=1672642%e2%80%8b%e2%80%8b&sfmc_id=111653741)

[350RRC]

" all the equipment they use"............Bull****! Like a bloody lot of like minded fishos, my rods are built by a bloke in Clontarf, Qld, using Australian blanks and I mostly use Alvey reels. I will admit I do have a Shimano and a couple of Penn reels, too. Just supply, there.

The bloke in Clontarf was making up to 100 rods a month for a large, Australian rod 'Supplier'. A lot of these rods were for the South Australian fishing fraternity so, except for the line guides, all Aussie goodies.

W.A. pillies, local or self caught bait. Fishing line manufactured at Brendale, in Queensland!

Not much "Spin" there!



" the cars they drive"........I'll give you that one, as it's a bit difficult to just slip out and buy an Australian made, single cab, trayback fourbie, ay? Once again, supply!

It's great to hear that there is all this high quality gear made in Oz that is the flavour of choice for those who hunt and fish, at least in the LR community.

In a previous life I was involved with a similar 'economic comparison' as the hunters / wool industry which became wholly political in the end with bizarre outcomes and a lot of lost jobs.

Is the wool industry only being valued on GVP? Do boats get counted in boatbuilding GVP as well as rec fishing value?

I'm not having a crack at recs or hunters by any stretch......... just questioning some of these economic comparisons of very different 'pastimes'.

cheers, DL

[bob10]

I've spoken to the new boss at Alvey, a top bloke . Some really interesting developments coming from that place. Before any one accuses the average fisherman of raping the oceans, there is a reason it's called' fishing,' and not 'catching.'[smilebigeye]

[scarry]

I have used nothing but Alvey reels,Mossops,Jarvis Walker and Wilson rods,all made in Aus for well over 50yrs.

In fact these days,for the surf and estuaries,which is 95% of our fishing,SWMBO uses a white Mossops Knockabout 10', i got for my 21st,with an old Alvey 5" reel.
I use a 6" wooden Alvey on a Wilson 13.5' surf rod.

But the boys are onto me to start using lures,so the move to an egg beater,with braid is inevitable.

For shooting,overseas gear is what we use,we inheritated rifles made in USA,and Finland.

And i must admit i did pick up a Howa .243 full SS a few years ago,it was such a good deal i couldnt help myself.

We reload all our gear,some is made in Aus.

[bob10]

I have used nothing but Alvey reels,Mossops,Jarvis Walker and Wilson rods,all made in Aus for well over 50yrs.

In fact these days,for the surf and estuaries,which is 95% of our fishing,SWMBO uses a white Mossops Knockabout 10', i got for my 21st,with an old Alvey 5" reel.
I use a 6" wooden Alvey on a Wilson 13.5' surf rod.

But the boys are onto me to start using lures,so the move to an egg beater,with braid is inevitable.

For shooting,overseas gear is what we use,we inheritated rifles made in USA,and Finland.

And i must admit i did pick up a Howa .243 full SS a few years ago,it was such a good deal i couldnt help myself.

We reload all our gear,some is made in Aus.

Alvey make a great Spinning reel, plus a vg baitcaster. [ not real cheap, but quality] I have the baitcaster, little tip , if you buy one have the shop put the line on the reel, to get the proper tension, otherwise you may get over runs.

Alvey Reels, Surf Rods & Combos For Sale Australia | BCF (https://www.bcf.com.au/brands/alvey)

[Saitch]

Umm, chaps, we may have to adjourn to the fishing thread.[bighmmm]

[V8Ian]

I drive a Land Rover from Europe, fuel it with (mostly imported) diesel.
I don't fish, I don't shoot. I offset these unpatriotic acts via Square Bear and XXXX. [bigwhistle]

[bob10]

Umm, chaps, we may have to adjourn to the fishing thread.[bighmmm]

Let me tell you about the time our dog found the ratsak, and we thought she had eaten some. Down to the vet , heaps of tests , and lots of vitamin K1 to deal with the blood thinning of the ratsak. Thankfully she came through ok , but the vet said that rastsak was one of the biggest killers of working dogs on the Darling Downs. True story, we were extremely worried and all the flamin' dog did was go around wagging her tail , lapping up the extra attention.

[Slunnie]

Let me tell you about the time our dog found the ratsak, and we thought she had eaten some. Down to the vet , heaps of tests , and lots of vitamin K1 to deal with the blood thinning of the ratsak. Thankfully she came through ok , but the vet said that rastsak was one of the biggest killers of working dogs on the Darling Downs. True story, we were extremely worried and all the flamin' dog did was go around wagging her tail , lapping up the extra attention.

Same here, been there, done that and dog had the same reaction - whats the fuss she thinks. She got the bait from the back of one of the utes.

[DiscoMick]

Very interesting story, thanks for sharing. Certainly good if dingoes control roos, pigs and goats, to benefit pasture growth. Dingoes might also control feral dogs. Difficult to see sheep being mauled though.
What happens if you let dingoes thrive on a cattle station. One man's controversial dingo solution.

Dingoes are considered a pest in much of regional Australia. But what happens if you let them thrive? - ABC News (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-06-25/farmers-suggest-changing-regional-australia-approach-to-dingoes/100147468?utm_source=sfmc%e2%80%8b%e2%80%8b&utm_medium=email%e2%80%8b%e2%80%8b&utm_campaign=abc_rural_roundup_sfmc_20210702%e2%80 %8b%e2%80%8b&utm_term=%e2%80%8b&utm_id=1672642%e2%80%8b%e2%80%8b&sfmc_id=111653741)

[Grumbles]

VDingoes might also control feral dogs.

Never going to happen.

[scarry]

Many Land Holders are using exclusion fences,some councils are also encouraging them and paying for part of the costs.The excuse is wild dog control.
They generally cost around $10K a Km.

So if a property has them along each boundary,it virtually becomes a Zoo.
The property next door has 100 000 acres,completely fenced.
Our boundary is 15Km,along one side of that property..

Sure, they keep out the vermin,if well maintained,but they also cause huge problems for the native wildlife,and i am surprised the environmentalists are not onto them.

I have often seen Wallabies, roos,emu's,Echidnas,and pigs trying to get through.
The roos and emus will keep hitting the fence,and trying to scramble over it ,but they usually get caught up in it,and have a horrible death.
Dogs and pigs would try to go under,but as the mesh is pushed hard against the ground,then a 1M section turned in,they have no hope of getting through anywhere.I havent seen a dog try to go through,as we dont see many,maybe one a year,but i have often seen pigs trotting along the fence trying to work out how to get through.
All the trees and vegetation is also cleared 10M either side of the fence.

[DiscoMick]

Yes, we are currently caretaking a small farm which has a double electric fence along a river boundary to stop wild dogs from the state forest coming across the river to attack their goats and cattle.
I believe the owners received some assistance for the cost of the fencing, but I don't know the details.
I suppose it could be argued the cattle and goats have been introduced into a natural ecosystem, which is the real cause of the problems. Take out the introduced animals and the dingoes might naturally control the roos, pigs and other ferals, including domestic dogs.

[trout1105]

I suppose it could be argued the cattle and goats have been introduced into a natural ecosystem, which is the real cause of the problems.

It could also be argued that the dingo's are also an introduced species, Much more sensible to eradicate these than to take out the "introduced" animals that feed the nation.

[bob10]

Being brought up on sheep /cattle stations in Central Qld, the dingo was public enemy no 1 , followed by the feral pigs. The dingo would decimate the new born lambs , if they could . Baiting is indiscriminate. If I remember correctly [ a long time ago] Roo shooters also had contracts for pigs and dingos.

[350RRC]

............... Take out the introduced animals and the dingoes might naturally control the roos, pigs and other ferals, including domestic dogs...................

Does that include the 'pigs and other ferals, including domestic dogs' as per the quote?

Roos were not introduced in the last 10k years, but all the others were, including dingoes. Rethink maybe?

DL

[scarry]

The dingo would decimate the new born lambs , if they could . Baiting is indiscriminate.

As do foxes,and pigs.Although we find foxes the worse of the two by a huge margin.

Shooting the foxes as much as possible,and we dont even put a dent in the population,baiting is the only way.
And having the lambs in the yards near the homestead,where possible, also helps.

From what i have seen,i dont think Dingos would take many pigs.

[DiscoMick]

Dingoes are basically Asian street dogs, I have seen them there myself, and are thought to have been here for at least 10,000 years, so they're assimilated now as top predators.
Dingoes seem to control roo numbers, so that's a benefit for pasture growth.
Dingoes form family groups and groups can kill pigs. Seen results of it myself growing up on the farm. We had dingoes attack smaller pigs in runs.
Feral dogs would have to submit to a group of dingoes or could be chased off or killed.
Certainly true sheep and goats have no chance against dingoes, but cattle are normally too big for dingoes.
So I guess that means lots of fencing and selective shooting. I hate baiting because it is so indiscriminate and kills native animals. No easy answers.

[trout1105]

Dingoes are basically Asian street dogs, I have seen them there myself, and are thought to have been here for at least 10,000 years, so they're assimilated now as top predators.
Dingoes seem to control roo numbers, so that's a benefit for pasture growth.
Dingoes form family groups and groups can kill pigs. Seen results of it myself growing up on the farm. We had dingoes attack smaller pigs in runs.
Feral dogs would have to submit to a group of dingoes or could be chased off or killed.
Certainly true sheep and goats have no chance against dingoes, but cattle are normally too big for dingoes.
So I guess that means lots of fencing and selective shooting. I hate baiting because it is so indiscriminate and kills native animals. No easy answers.

1080 is a naturally occurring poison bush/shrub in Australia and our native species are immune to it But introduced animals are not so it is a good choice as a bait poison [thumbsupbig]

The Best poison for feral animals is lead and it is a targeted approach [thumbsupbig]

[bob10]

As do foxes,and pigs.Although we find foxes the worse of the two by a huge margin.

Shooting the foxes as much as possible,and we dont even put a dent in the population,baiting is the only way.
And having the lambs in the yards near the homestead,where possible, also helps.

From what i have seen,i dont think Dingos would take many pigs.

I remember I only saw foxes once, in central Qld. Dad took me to where they found a litter in a hollow tree. They seem to be a lot smarter than dingos. About the only way a dingo would take down a pig is if the pig was sick or injured, I believe. The danger in having every tom dick & harry going bush shooting everything that moves, especially on those huge properties around Longreach & Ilfracombe , is you are liable to have bullets whistling around your ears and every horse & cow are in danger at night. Professional shooters only [lease.

[scarry]

The Best poison for feral animals is lead and it is a targeted approach [thumbsupbig]

Yes I agree 100%,but looking at the numbers game,using 1080 is so much more economical,and has much better results.

But like Mick,I hate it as well,but it’s necessary at times.

Unfortunately,many good working farm dogs have been unnecessarily lost to a bait.
The neighbours lost two of their best ,not long ago,and another neighbour,a family pet.
A dog only needs a few drops,and it’s all over.

[trout1105]

If you use a red lense cover on your spotlight your kill rate on foxes goes through the roof[thumbsupbig]

[Grumbles]

If you use a red lense cover on your spotlight your kill rate on foxes goes through the roof[thumbsupbig]

Spotlights are so old school these days. Night vision is where it is all at nowadays....especially popular with the illegal shooter group.

[trout1105]

Spotlights are so old school these days. Night vision is where it is all at nowadays....especially popular with the illegal shooter group.

The flashiest thing that I have for shooting is illuminated crosshairs on my scope.

[Grumbles]

There has been mention in this thread of dingos and taking down or not taking down herbivores due to their size. But what does "taking down" actually mean. To most people it means attacking like a lion, cheetah, leopard etc where prey animals die quickly. But that is not how it works with canines. I use the term "canine" rather than dingo and "canine" again for wild dogs. The two "species" overlap in both hunting style and bloodlines.

Any large herbivore, be it pig, deer, kangaroo which is targeted by canines will die badly. The canines work as a team and a team may be many individuals or just two. They pursue their target relentlessly and regularly swap the lead so that the lead canine is always relatively fresh but their target gets no relief and is run into the ground exhausted. But that is not where it ends. The canines then relentlessly attack the soft rear end of their target which causes the target to be constantly spinning on its axis as it tries to protect its rear end and dissuade its attackers. Eventually it tires to the point of just laying there. At this stage the canines start feasting on the rear end and lower abdomen contents whilst the animal still lives. It is a slow death of a thousand bites so to speak. The size of the prey animal is not a dissuader for the canines. It is just another meal to them.

[DiscoMick]

There has been mention in this thread of dingos and taking down or not taking down herbivores due to their size. But what does "taking down" actually mean. To most people it means attacking like a lion, cheetah, leopard etc where prey animals die quickly. But that is not how it works with canines. I use the term "canine" rather than dingo and "canine" again for wild dogs. The two "species" overlap in both hunting style and bloodlines.

Any large herbivore, be it pig, deer, kangaroo which is targeted by canines will die badly. The canines work as a team and a team may be many individuals or just two. They pursue their target relentlessly and regularly swap the lead so that the lead canine is always relatively fresh but their target gets no relief and is run into the ground exhausted. But that is not where it ends. The canines then relentlessly attack the soft rear end of their target which causes the target to be constantly spinning on its axis as it tries to protect its rear end and dissuade its attackers. Eventually it tires to the point of just laying there. At this stage the canines start feasting on the rear end and lower abdomen contents whilst the animal still lives. It is a slow death of a thousand bites so to speak. The size of the prey animal is not a dissuader for the canines. It is just another meal to them.Yes, it's a family of dingoes vs one pig, which becomes exhausted.
As for poisons, lots of animals including dogs are currently dying in NSW after eating mice killed by poisons.

[scarry]

Wild pigs have a huge amount of stamina,and they very fast.They also can be extremely agressive,particularly when cornered or injured.
It would take quite a few Dingos and a huge effort to bring one down,particularly one cattle dog sized or larger.
They may get the smaller ones,as the Sows often abandon them when they are in danger,which is strange,but i have seen this happen often.

[scarry]

As for poisons, lots of animals including dogs are currently dying in NSW after eating mice killed by poisons.

i wonder if its also effecting the birds?

Many live predomately on mice,kestrels,Black shouldered kites,Owls,etc,etc.
Barn owls live exclusively on mice.

[trout1105]

Has anyone tried using 1080 on rats/mice?

[Grumbles]

i wonder if its also effecting the birds?

Birds of prey consuming poisoned rodents will die from secondary poisoning. I am unsure of when death actually occurs but because of the way it kills - internal hemorrhaging - I'd suspect that initially they can still fly so when they die they may be some distance from where they ate the rodent.

The poisoned carcasses of foxes and wild canines which died from 1080 poison are dangerous to any scavenging predator be it bird or mammal and it is quick acting. It is not uncommon to find dead wedge tailed eagles next to the carcass of a 1080 killed canine or fox they have been eating. It acts quickly so the birds never get the chance to fly away.

[350RRC]

Has anyone tried using 1080 on rats/mice?

Blue oats (rabbait.......pindone) is sensational with rats.

I only use it indoors where birds can't get at it and I know they won't be killed by eating the carcasses outside.

You can increase the attractiveness by adding molten fat.

DL

[350RRC]

Birds of prey consuming poisoned rodents will die from secondary poisoning. I am unsure of when death actually occurs but because of the way it kills - internal hemorrhaging - I'd suspect that initially they can still fly so when they die they may be some distance from where they ate the rodent.

The poisoned carcasses of foxes and wild canines which died from 1080 poison are dangerous to any scavenging predator be it bird or mammal and it is quick acting. It is not uncommon to find dead wedge tailed eagles next to the carcass of a 1080 killed canine or fox they have been eating. It acts quickly so the birds never get the chance to fly away.

The second generation rodenticides like brodifacoum and brodioline are way worse due to sheer sales volume, long half life and toxicity.

1080 is a naturally occurring thing in many Oz plants, so I'd be interested in real effects on native wildlife.

Stated observations noted.

cheers, DL

[Grumbles]

It is a common misconception that native wild life is immune to the effects of 1080 if ingested. But.....it is not an immunity but rather a tolerance they have to the poison. Different species have different tolerance levels and some have none.

1080 comes in different strengths so the selected 1080 laced bait is strong enough to kill the target species but not a bigger animal. Say 'X' amount will kill a fox but not kill a dog and "Y' strength will kill a rabbit but not a fox or dog.

It is a poison that causes massive pain and convulsions before death occurs. I do wonder at how it ever got approved for use in Oz. Our bureaucracy tips unknown quantities out of planes over vast areas of public lands targeting wild dogs/foxes. How many do they kill? Unknown! How many native species die from first or secondary poisoning? Unknown! Yet the routine continues. [bigsad]

[trout1105]

It is a common misconception that native wild life is immune to the effects of 1080 if ingested. But.....it is not an immunity but rather a tolerance they have to the poison. Different species have different tolerance levels and some have none.

1080 comes in different strengths so the selected 1080 laced bait is strong enough to kill the target species but not a bigger animal. Say 'X' amount will kill a fox but not kill a dog and "Y' strength will kill a rabbit but not a fox or dog.

It is a poison that causes massive pain and convulsions before death occurs. I do wonder at how it ever got approved for use in Oz. Our bureaucracy tips unknown quantities out of planes over vast areas of public lands targeting wild dogs/foxes. How many do they kill? Unknown! How many native species die from first or secondary poisoning? Unknown! Yet the routine continues. [bigsad]

It amuses me when people rant about 1080 to control vermin when they will happily use insecticides to control flies, mozzies, cokaroaches etc around their homes.[bigwhistle]

[RANDLOVER]

It amuses me when people rant about 1080 to control vermin when they will happily use insecticides to control flies, mozzies, cokaroaches etc around their homes.[bigwhistle]

What's amusing is insecticides don't actually work by poisoning but by drowning, so you actually have to identify the bug you are trying to kill, unlike indiscriminate killing of wild animals, pets, working dogs, etc with 1080.

[350RRC]

What's amusing is insecticides don't actually work by poisoning but by drowning, so you actually have to identify the bug you are trying to kill, unlike indiscriminate killing of wild animals, pets, working dogs, etc with 1080.

The common ones such as the organophosphates (commercial) and pyrethrins are nerve poisons.

Others often work by delaying or advancing moult timing when the insect is not ready, etc.

DL

[350RRC]

i wonder if its also effecting the birds?

Many live predomately on mice,kestrels,Black shouldered kites,Owls,etc,etc.
Barn owls live exclusively on mice.

That's the point of the thread.

All the bird organisations have condemned the use of the type 2 rodenticides (containing brodifacoum, brodidialone, etc) because they are killing those sorts of birds.

Post mortem tox tests have confirmed it.

DL

[DiscoMick]

Many rodenticides are blood thinners, causing the victims to rapidly bleed to death.
For example, Warfrin is a blood thinner which causes victims such as rats and mice to bleed out. In humans, it is used to thin blood and combat blood clots.
If poisoned rats, mice or other rodents are eaten by other animals such as birds, pets or children, the treatment is massive doses of Vitamin K to cause blood to clot.
The use of rodenticides to combat the mice plague has caused a huge number of deaths of native fauna, as well as domestic animals.
The demand for Vitamin K has been so great that supplies are depleted.

Rodenticides (http://npic.orst.edu/factsheets/rodenticides.html)

Weekly Dose: Warfarin, the blood-thinner that's still used as a rat killer (https://theconversation.com/weekly-dose-warfarin-the-blood-thinner-thats-still-used-as-a-rat-killer-55944)

[350RRC]

Many rodenticides are blood thinners, causing the victims to rapidly bleed to death.
For example, Warfrin is a blood thinner which causes victims such as rats and mice to bleed out. In humans, it is used to thin blood and combat blood clots.
If poisoned rats, mice or other rodents are eaten by other animals such as birds, pets or children, the treatment is massive doses of Vitamin K to cause blood to clot.
The use of rodenticides to combat the mice plague has caused a huge number of deaths of native fauna, as well as domestic animals.
The demand for Vitamin K has been so great that supplies are depleted.

Rodenticides (http://npic.orst.edu/factsheets/rodenticides.html)

Weekly Dose: Warfarin, the blood-thinner that's still used as a rat killer (https://theconversation.com/weekly-dose-warfarin-the-blood-thinner-thats-still-used-as-a-rat-killer-55944)

With respect Mick, you're missing the point.

There are type 1 rodenticides and type 2.

Warfarin is a type 1, brodifacoum and brodialone are type 2.

They work in the same way, but the half lives of these groups of chemicals and the way birds metabolise them are very different.

The way rats behave after ingesting them is different as well. A rat (or mouse) will feel crook after one dose of warfarin and needs more than one feed to be fatal.

Rodents don't feel crook after one feed of the type 2's so they pig out and can accumulate enough in one body to kill a bird. Because the half life of these type 2's is so long it will accumulate in birds after multiple feeds over time, till they die.

The half life of warfarin in rats is about 2 weeks, brodifacoum..... over 100 days.

Brodifacoum is banned for domestic use sale in the US.

I strongly suggest anyone with an interest in 'domestic' rat and mouse death and a healthier and greater raptor population (free range rodenticides) reads this:

https://birdlife.org.au/documents/BirdLife_Bird_friendly_rodent_control_final.pdf

cheers,DL

[DiscoMick]

That's good information. Thanks.
My attitude is to avoid using them if at all possible.

[Saitch]

That's good information. Thanks.
My attitude is to avoid using them if at all possible.

Yep, my attitude too, which is why I encourage our reptilian visitors to remain at our house.[bigsmile1]

[350RRC]

Yep, my attitude too, which is why I encourage our reptilian visitors to remain at our house.[bigsmile1]

Same here, but you have to remember this is Vic, in April reptiles are starting to have a nap and rats want to move indoors, causing concern and causing damage.

Unfortunately this year rat numbers are up, birds dealing with, way down, sales of type 2 poisons way up, supermarket shelves stripped of type 2 one hit wonders.

Very empty skies, even magpie numbers are down.

DL

[RANDLOVER]

I saw this story on Landline about a new very effective bait for pigs using sodium nitrate, it doesn't affect other animals and they put it in traps with magnetic lids, that are easy for pigs to open with their snouts and not so easy for other animals.

Kangaroo Island turns up the heat on feral pigs with high-tech eradication program - ABC News (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-07-17/feral-pigs-kangaroo-island-sa-eradication/100293826)

[Saitch]

Well, here you go. I just got a call from my sister, advising that their four, laying, house chooks have died, after scratching around with a dead rat. [bigsad]

I did point out to her hubby that using rodent baits was fraught with the danger of secondary kills.

He placed the baits about three weeks ago, I think.

[DiscoMick]

Relatives near Lismore have had same experience. Dead chooks after mice and rats died from poison.

[350RRC]

Well, here you go. I just got a call from my sister, advising that their four, laying, house chooks have died, after scratching around with a dead rat. [bigsad]

I did point out to her hubby that using rodent baits was fraught with the danger of secondary kills.

He placed the baits about three weeks ago, I think.

The real question is what type of rat poison............. my money would be on brodifacoum or brodialone.

It't be handy to know.

DL

[Saitch]

The real question is what type of rat poison............. my money would be on brodifacoum or brodialone.

It't be handy to know.

DL

Yes, good point. I'll find out. Is it OK to put a Brand Name up? I mean it's good advertising, in a way, as it shows its efficacy.[biggrin]

[350RRC]

Yes, good point. I'll find out. Is it OK to put a Brand Name up? I mean it's good advertising, in a way, as it shows its efficacy.[biggrin]

The ingredient would suffice. There many brands using the same ingredients with roughly the same concentration.

DL

[V8Ian]

Yes, good point. I'll find out. Is it OK to put a Brand Name up? I mean it's good advertising, in a way, as it shows its efficacy.[biggrin]
Anything containing yoghurt would be deadly, in your opinion, wouldn't it Steve? [bigrolf]

[Saitch]

Anything containing yoghurt would be deadly, in your opinion, wouldn't it Steve? [bigrolf]

On that note, I suppose I could say that I have seen a bit of culture in a D2, after all.[bigwhistle]


The packet the baits came in are long gone but the B-I-L remembers the poison being 'Bro' something. He has since been given advice by a vet about a non-residual bait, the name of which escapes him at the moment. He's out doing rural firey stuff at the moment.

[350RRC]

On that note, I suppose I could say that I have seen a bit of culture in a D2, after all.[bigwhistle]


The packet the baits came in are long gone but the B-I-L remembers the poison being 'Bro' something. He has since been given advice by a vet about a non-residual bait, the name of which escapes him at the moment. He's out doing rural firey stuff at the moment.

On the face of it the dead rat the chickens ate contained enough Brodi whatever to kill four of them.

If it was brodifacoum a rat carcass would still contain half the amount of it after 100+ days.

DL

[RANDLOVER]

Yes, good point. I'll find out. Is it OK to put a Brand Name up? I mean it's good advertising, in a way, as it shows its efficacy.

Product names can be confusing as "Mouseoff" comes in 2 types, the Bromadiolane and zinc phosphate, denoted as "Mouseoff ZP"

MOUSEOFF® Zinc Phosphide Bait — animal control technologies (https://animalcontrol.com.au/products/mouseoff-zinc-phosphide-bait-yr6ny-8gryd-pamaj)

[B]What happens to the mice?Most mice die underground. This can be confirmed by excavating holes to find carcasses or by rechecking burrow activity after baiting. Birds and other scavengers quickly take the few mice that do die on the surface so few dead mice are seen. The dead mice are not toxic to scavengers.

[Grumbles]

I have a 24/7 rat and mouse problem courtesy of a neighbor who, until recently, [she died] had chooks and their pen hadn't been mucked out for many years. Plenty of hidey places tn the yard for the rodents to breed so there was always a new generation to invade my place.

Eons ago I used those block baits with a hole in the middle for a tent peg to hold it in place. Yeah right!!! The rats chewed on the side of the bait and reached the tent peg. Then they broke the bait up and carried the pieces away to who knows where. Having dogs I learnt very quickly not to use them and thankfully no dogs harmed in the learning process.

Only a couple of weeks ago my Cav Spaniel rushed in and out from under a Hydrangea bush. He was absolutely chuffed with himself proudly carrying a live rat. Quite an effort for a little dog.

[350RRC]

Product names can be confusing as "Mouseoff" comes in 2 types, the Bromadiolane and zinc phosphate, denoted as "Mouseoff ZP"

MOUSEOFF® Zinc Phosphide Bait — animal control technologies (https://animalcontrol.com.au/products/mouseoff-zinc-phosphide-bait-yr6ny-8gryd-pamaj)

What happens to the mice?Most mice die underground. This can be confirmed by excavating holes to find carcasses or by rechecking burrow activity after baiting. Birds and other scavengers quickly take the few mice that do die on the surface so few dead mice are seen. The dead mice are not toxic to scavengers.


I agree, the ZP has no real half life, is not residual and as safe for the carcass eaters as you can get, especially if you're using it in a shed.

Bromadialone on the other hand..............

DL

[Saitch]

Product names can be confusing as "Mouseoff" comes in 2 types, the Bromadiolane and zinc phosphate, denoted as "Mouseoff ZP"

MOUSEOFF® Zinc Phosphide Bait — animal control technologies (https://animalcontrol.com.au/products/mouseoff-zinc-phosphide-bait-yr6ny-8gryd-pamaj)

What happens to the mice?

Most mice die underground. This can be confirmed by excavating holes to find carcasses or by rechecking burrow activity after baiting. Birds and other scavengers quickly take the few mice that do die on the surface so few dead mice are seen. The dead mice are not toxic to scavengers.


Thanks, RL. Have sent link to my dopey Broil.

[bob10]

Australian breahthrough in feral pig control, - "Hoggone".

Humane Australian breakthrough in feral pig control with poison bait, Hoggone - ABC News (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-07-25/humane-australian-breakthrough-in-feral-pig-control-hoggone/100311150?utm_source=sfmc%e2%80%8b%e2%80%8b&utm_medium=email%e2%80%8b%e2%80%8b&utm_campaign=abc_rural_roundup_sfmc_20210730%e2%80 %8b%e2%80%8b&utm_term=%e2%80%8b&utm_id=1693627%e2%80%8b%e2%80%8b&sfmc_id=111653741)

[RANDLOVER]

Australian breahthrough in feral pig control, - "Hoggone".

Humane Australian breakthrough in feral pig control with poison bait, Hoggone - ABC News (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-07-25/humane-australian-breakthrough-in-feral-pig-control-hoggone/100311150?utm_source=sfmc%e2%80%8b%e2%80%8b&utm_medium=email%e2%80%8b%e2%80%8b&utm_campaign=abc_rural_roundup_sfmc_20210730%e2%80 %8b%e2%80%8b&utm_term=%e2%80%8b&utm_id=1693627%e2%80%8b%e2%80%8b&sfmc_id=111653741)

I saw this on Landline during the weekend, the inventor seems to be a unsung hero for all the work he has done on pest control.

[350RRC]

I saw this on Landline during the weekend, the inventor seems to be a unsung hero for all the work he has done on pest control.

The 'inventor' addressed the local landcare here one night and really opened my eyes and ears about the way various poison agents worked, the importance of short half lives, etc.

It was great to hear a scientist speaking facts, as opposed to a biased animal lib person spruking misinformation.

DL

[bob10]

Feral pigs are said to have been illegally released in South Australia , to be used for hunting. I think that was done with rabbits, back in the day.[bighmmm]

Authorities round up illegally released feral pigs after unusual outbreak on farming properties - ABC News (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-08-12/feral-pigs-possibly-released-for-hunting-in-sa/100367620?utm_source=sfmc%e2%80%8b%e2%80%8b&utm_medium=email%e2%80%8b%e2%80%8b&utm_campaign=abc_rural_news_sfmc%e2%80%8b%e2%80%8b&utm_term=%e2%80%8b&utm_id=1702820%e2%80%8b%e2%80%8b&sfmc_id=111653741)

[350RRC]

There's some evidence that something similar happened with carp appearing in the Glenelg system in Vic around 2000............ deliberate release for sport fishing purposes.

DL

[Saitch]

There's some evidence that something similar happened with carp appearing in the Glenelg system in Vic around 2000............ deliberate release for sport fishing purposes.

DL

That could be worse than the pig situation![bigsad]

[trout1105]

For the last 6-8 weeks we have been inundated with mice in this district.
I have deployed traps and baits and we are using about 500g of baits a day and the little buggers just keep on coming.
I do the rounds twice a day and drown the ones caught in the traps and pick up all the dead ones that have succumbed to the poison and put them all in a covered incinerator with a good handful of lime.
The resident magpies and butcher birds are still here in good numbers so I am certain that none of them have picked up a baited rodent so far [thumbsupbig]

[350RRC]

For the last 6-8 weeks we have been inundated with mice in this district.
I have deployed traps and baits and we are using about 500g of baits a day and the little buggers just keep on coming.
I do the rounds twice a day and drown the ones caught in the traps and pick up all the dead ones that have succumbed to the poison and put them all in a covered incinerator with a good handful of lime.
The resident magpies and butcher birds are still here in good numbers so I am certain that none of them have picked up a baited rodent so far [thumbsupbig]

But what type of bait are you actually using?

DL

[trout1105]

But what type of bait are you actually using?

DL

Whatever brand I can get hold of at the moment ( I usually use "Talon" ) because the baits are a bit thin on the ground at the moment due to the numbers of rats/mice in the district.
I figured that if I control and contain where the carcasses' end up I should be able to protect the birds/snakes from getting poisoned [thumbsupbig]
Now we just need a bit of rain so it will be safe to cremate the little beggers, Much too dry and windy to fire up the incinerator at the moment.

[Arapiles]

We get massive mouse plagues in the Wimmera, where they literally carpet the ground. I'm not aware of anyone trying to bait them, it'd've been pointless. We did do a variety of things, including sticking bait over drums of water etc. When the mice eventually died off we then had the problem of the semi-feral cats and their half-grown kittens coming up to the house to be fed ....

[trout1105]

We get massive mouse plagues in the Wimmera, where they literally carpet the ground. I'm not aware of anyone trying to bait them, it'd've been pointless. We did do a variety of things, including sticking bait over drums of water etc. When the mice eventually died off we then had the problem of the semi-feral cats and their half-grown kittens coming up to the house to be fed ....

It's not as bad as that here But after 2 really good seasons and a mild winter the numbers of the mice/rats have most definately increased manyfold.
We usualy have a bit of a problem just after harvest for a couple of weeks and after a couple of applications of baits we get rid of them.
This year it has been ongoing for 6-8 weeks and there is still no end in sight at the moment and it is costing a small fortune in baits trying to control the numbers until winter comes and pretty much wipes them out.

When we first moved in about 15 years ago the place was infested with feral cats and foxes but over the years I have managed to pretty much eradicate them and only rarely will I see one now in my scope.

[windsock]

Every so often we have a "mast year" in NZ where the high-country beech trees have a prolific seeding event and the mice population explodes in our native forest and mountain areas. Fly fisherman look forward to such events as mice invariably end up in the rivers and end up as instant protein-packs and the trout get larger and larger.

Our flies become mice... and our Browns and Rainbows become mouse traps. [bigsmile]

Mouse flies | Global FlyFisher | Somewhat an oxymoron - a fly that's a mammal - but still a fun fly to tie, and not least to fish when the large fish are tuned in on a mouse menu. (https://globalflyfisher.com/patterns-tie-better/mouse-flies)

[trout1105]

Every so often we have a "mast year" in NZ where the high-country beech trees have a prolific seeding event and the mice population explodes in our native forest and mountain areas. Fly fisherman look forward to such events as mice invariably end up in the rivers and end up as instant protein-packs and the trout get larger and larger.

Our flies become mice... and our Browns and Rainbows become mouse traps. [bigsmile]

Mouse flies | Global FlyFisher | Somewhat an oxymoron - a fly that's a mammal - but still a fun fly to tie, and not least to fish when the large fish are tuned in on a mouse menu. (https://globalflyfisher.com/patterns-tie-better/mouse-flies)

I wish we had trout here, Just imagine how big they would grow when we get the occasional rabbit and roo infestations [thumbsupbig][biggrin]

[windsock]

Hard to beat tourists for making the trout huge... :whistling:

https://www.nzherald.co.nz/resizer/97sK_tT1F6kZIzL9ejT-eACir2E=/1440x810/smart/filters:quality(70)/cloudfront-ap-southeast-2.images.arcpublishing.com/nzme/BJSBPEQTPSXIB6JY7P7DRY37WE.jpg

[V8Ian]

Jim, have you seen Shaun Woods YouTube channel? He's got plenty of traps that a man with your skill sets could make.


https://youtu.be/pHwvVPT202Y

[Saitch]

Years ago, in Tassie, I managed to catch a trout and one of the locals whacked it in his old smoker for me.

Gee, wasn't it good!

Where I am, when we mention 'Trout', it's taken as referring to 'Coronation Trout' a.k.a. 'Coral Trout'.

[HUE166]

It's been a tough year with mice and rats, we've done two lots of baiting in town using TomKat type baits and have had a scare when small white dog ate a baited mouse a couple of weeks ago. Luckily he survived without any side effects.
On the farm we put out baits (screwed to shed timbers) and they were all gone in a week, we rebaited a couple of weeks later and they have only been nibbled a bit which is the usual state they are in for most of the year.
We did find a freshly dead rat outside the shearing shed the other week and thought no more of it and it was gone a couple of days later and we assumed a fox ate it, in which case then secondary poisoning was not an issue but I wonder what the impact is on native wildlife, particularly birds of prey.
We are lucky to have a few wedge tail eagles around the farm (I put my drone up a few weeks ago and very quickly had company of the wedge tail kind making me withdraw) but aside from the odd rat that didn't make it under cover to die we're not large scale baiters.
With the current plague further west does anyone have any experience of the effects of crop baiting on the bird life?

Random gratuitous drone footage here Mayfield 5 - Flyover western side - YouTube (https://youtu.be/k0p4ufao7u8)

Regards,
Tote

I spread a few thousand hectares of Mouse-Off out west last year (October). Once the Phostoxin has kills its original victim there is very little toxin left for any secondary poisoning. Once the chemical has been activated (by moisture) it is basically spent.

[350RRC]

I spread a few thousand hectares of Mouse-Off out west last year (October). Once the Phostoxin has kills its original victim there is very little toxin left for any secondary poisoning. Once the chemical has been activated (by moisture) it is basically spent.

For those with farms, please note he has used Mouse Off ZP, not the 'economy' version which contains bromadialone.

ZP stands for zinc phosphide.

Mouse Off ZP is ideal for killing mice without the risk of killing birds of prey in broadacre situations.

DL

[trout1105]

I have resorted to using traps now and am having quite a bit of success with them.
I bought 7 of these at the big green shed [thumbsupbig]

177607177608

[scarry]

I have resorted to using traps now and am having quite a bit of success with them.
I bought 7 of these at the big green shed [thumbsupbig]

177607177608

For rats or mice?

I have heaps of issues catching mice,but the rats are easy,particularly the younger ones.
The larger older rats are also difficult to catch.The young ones will often go into a trap with no bait.

I generally use break back traps for mice,and Elliotte traps for rats.We inherited a box of Elliotte traps from my father,he used them for catching rats for research.
Outside i have to be careful as we have lots of hungry possums around,so rat break back traps are not really the go outside.

[V8Ian]

https://youtu.be/OpfE8OolUeY

[trout1105]

I will get some corn and give that a try.
The little buggers are now shunning the new traps.

[scarry]

We have used a stubbie, cable tied up so it points slightly downwards into a tall bucket.
Then shove some cooked bacon rind into the end of the stubbie.

Seems to work well,during the mouse plague,we caught hundreds of them using this method.

[Tombie]

One of these perhaps [emoji848] [emoji56]
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220322/5938461d1095698dc325afae79cddd4a.jpg

[Vern]

We use one of those kitchen rubbish bins with the swing top lid. Bit of peanut butter on the lid, rat climbs on top, and falls on in

[350RRC]

We have used a stubbie, cable tied up so it points slightly downwards into a tall bucket.
Then shove some cooked bacon rind into the end of the stubbie.

Seems to work well,during the mouse plague,we caught hundreds of them using this method.

Was going to post about a version of the same thing, except using longnecks. The old 26 fluid oz type or whatever they are now.

The neck shape makes it deadly.

DL

[laney]

1080 is just cruel if you ever see an animal dying of this stuff it a death I wouldn't wish on anything I hunt with a compound bow I have yet to find anything my bow can't bring down I will eat most what I shoot or the dog gets a feed. Having said that foxes are left where they die.

[350RRC]

1080 is just cruel if you ever see an animal dying of this stuff it a death I wouldn't wish on anything I hunt with a compound bow I have yet to find anything my bow can't bring down I will eat most what I shoot or the dog gets a feed. Having said that foxes are left where they die.

The thread is about using rodenticides that don't cause collateral damage to native animals (birds of prey mostly) so they and their progeny can safely eat more rats and mice to their hearts content into the future.

No one likes cruelty, even with pest animals.

DL

[RANDLOVER]

The thread is about using rodenticides that don't cause collateral damage to native animals (birds of prey mostly) so they and their progeny can safely eat more rats and mice to their hearts content into the future.

No one likes cruelty, even with pest animals.

DL

There are a lot more birds of prey around than people might think. I live in the suburbs, although there is a lot of bush near me and the other day I saw a falcon flying low above my house, trying to scare up some pigeons I think, and this morning I could hear an owl hooting when I was in my front garden.

[trout1105]

1080 is just cruel if you ever see an animal dying of this stuff it a death I wouldn't wish on anything I hunt with a compound bow I have yet to find anything my bow can't bring down I will eat most what I shoot or the dog gets a feed. Having said that foxes are left where they die.

You claim to be concerned about cruelty and yet you hunt with a compound bow instead of a rifle.
No matter how good you are with a bow it will Never be as accurate or as effective as a rifle for humanly dispatching prey or pests.

[350RRC]

There are a lot more birds of prey around than people might think. I live in the suburbs, although there is a lot of bush near me and the other day I saw a falcon flying low above my house, trying to scare up some pigeons I think, and this morning I could hear an owl hooting when I was in my front garden.

At my place in the middle of the Bellarine there were swamp harriers, kites, kestrels, etc around every day 10 years ago.

Have seen 2 kites in the four months.

[350RRC]

Are Bromadiolone and Warfarin the same chemical, or different with the same result?

If you care about birds of prey and other native animals, choose only products with WARFARIN (‘Double Strength’ Ratsak) or COUMATETRALYL (Racumin) as the active ingredients.

When looking for poison baits for mice and rats DO NOT BUY products containing Brodifacoum, Bromadiolone, Difenacoum, Difethialone, or Flocoumafen.

Be aware that some brands of rodenticides have different versions of product, so looking at the label for the active ingredient is pretty essential.

All the ‘bad’ ones have ‘POISON’ written at the top of the label and words like ‘fast action’ or ‘quick kill’ written somewhere.

cheers, DL

[laney]

Yes tout1105 I do use a compound bow you suggest it's a cruel death I say no as with a rifle if you are a bad shot the animal will suffer I can drop a wild dog or pig every bit as fast as a person with a gun you obviously have never used a good compound bow or have little to no knowledge of how to use them. I have reread my original post what I said was 1080 is just a cruel way to kill an animal it also has a lot of secondary kills as native animals eat the poisoned bodies' my compound bow does not have any secondary kills .

[scarry]

You claim to be concerned about cruelty and yet you hunt with a compound bow instead of a rifle.
No matter how good you are with a bow it will Never be as accurate or as effective as a rifle for humanly dispatching prey or pests.

If you have ever hunted with a good bow hunter you would know that is incorrect.

I have seen so called good shooters cause more cruelty than a good bow hunter.

[trout1105]

If you have ever hunted with a good bow hunter you would know that is incorrect.

I have seen so called good shooters cause more cruelty than a good bow hunter.

I am ex Army (Infrantry) and my bullets go Exacly where I aim them.
Small animals small calibre bigger animals bigger calibre easy and more importantly hunane.
I have had to euthanize at least half a dozen roos here with arrows hanging out of them from bow hunters in this Area.

Yes there are some crap hunters out there that should NEVER be allowed to hunt with either bow or a rifle But at least with a rifle it is licensed and policed.
Anyone can buy a bow[bigwhistle]
A well placed round will be Far more efficiant than a well placed arrow anyday

[scarry]

A well placed round will be Far more efficiant than a well placed arrow anyday

We will have to agree to disagree.[biggrin]

Sounds like there are some amateur bow hunters in your area.
Hopefully they won’t get hold of firearms,as the results could be worse.

[Tombie]

Sounds like kids using target arrows.
Hunting arrows in the hands of a good bowman are easily as effective as a rifle (just got to get a bit closer).

Personally I prefer my rifles. [emoji41]

Infantry hey [emoji41] Did you get those crossed rifles? Ever try for sniper? [emoji41]

I loved my L1A1, enjoyed the Steyr… and absolutely adore my 6.5CM (calibre now become one of a few used by US snipers)

[Max Headroom 2.3m]

If you care about birds of prey and other native animals, choose only products with WARFARIN (‘Double Strength’ Ratsak) or COUMATETRALYL (Racumin) as the active ingredients.

X2 on the Racumin. We used to have a mouse problem, Racumin worked a treat, just couldn't keep up until a family of king skinks kindly moved in. King skinks got fat...mouse problem gone.

[RANDLOVER]

At my place in the middle of the Bellarine there were swamp harriers, kites, kestrels, etc around every day 10 years ago.

Have seen 2 kites in the four months.

That is very disappointing and reminds me of some tests on chemicals in peoples bloodstreams done in the US (country mice vs city mice to keep this thread vaguely on track), and farmers actually had much higher readings than city folk, as a lot work with chemicals all day.

[trout1105]

Despite using a $43 bucket of baits a day and 7x large capacity mouse traps these little bastards are Still in plauge propertions here until winter finally gets here and kills the little buggers off at last.
They have done untold damage so far and have even pinched all the seedlings that I planted yeserday and have also started digging up the seeds I planted as well.
Most of the farms around here have started their seeding programmes and I imagine that the mice will also take a toll on crops by eating the seed and chewing out the new shoots as well.
I am So over these damned rodents.

[Saitch]

Snakes, Trout, you need snakes!

[trout1105]

Snakes, Trout, you need snakes!

My resident carpet snakes are all too fat to move at the moment.

[scarry]

Despite using a $43 bucket of baits a day and 7x large capacity mouse traps these little bastards are Still in plauge propertions here until winter finally gets here and kills the little buggers off at last.
They have done untold damage so far and have even pinched all the seedlings that I planted yeserday and have also started digging up the seeds I planted as well.
Most of the farms around here have started their seeding programmes and I imagine that the mice will also take a toll on crops by eating the seed and chewing out the new shoots as well.
I am So over these damned rodents.

Your lucky they havent been under the bonnet of the 79 and had a chew.They love making nests under the intercooler,and chew the coolant hoses😩

Got them here as well,but no where near as bad,one chewed a wire behind the intercooler,and parts of the Traxide dual battery set up.I use the bait with warfarin,couldnt get it into a trap.The bait sorted it,but i see some others have moved in so more baiting and traps are needed.

Apparently they dont like light,so many on properties park the vehicles in a shed and leave the shed lights on all night.

[trout1105]

The little beggers have destroyed a couple of fridges by chewing the wireing But thankfully the 79 has escaped so far.
I need someone to invent a muzzy coil that works on rodants

As far a light goes the little sod's here are mobile during daylight.
I have made a bucket trap and have put it in tbe veggie patch So I will see how that goes,If it works I will make many more.

[Saitch]

Your lucky they havent been under the bonnet of the 79 and had a chew.They love making nests under the intercooler,and chew the coolant hoses😩

Got them here as well,but no where near as bad,one chewed a wire behind the intercooler,and parts of the Traxide dual battery set up.I use the bait with warfarin,couldnt get it into a trap.The bait sorted it,but i see some others have moved in so more baiting and traps are needed.

Apparently they dont like light,so many on properties park the vehicles in a shed and leave the shed lights on all night.

Leaving the bonnet up helps, too. Especially in the cooler months, after parking a vehicle with a warm motor.

[Slunnie]

Your lucky they havent been under the bonnet of the 79 and had a chew.They love making nests under the intercooler,and chew the coolant hoses😩


I literally had that yesterday. Lifted the bonnet of the 3dr and had a mouse run over the top of the engine. I was pretty surprised considering I had been driving it not that long before.

[scarry]

Leaving the bonnet up helps, too. Especially in the cooler months, after parking a vehicle with a warm motor.

And a light above the open engine bay that is on a timer to come on at night.
What i have also done is sprayed most of the wiring,and the insulation on the engine side of the firewall with tectyl.
They have never chewed anything that has Tectyl on it,i recoat every 12 months approx.

Its the mice here that cause the majority of damage,not the rats.

[scarry]

Did a bit of rat bait research,and found some that has active constituents, sodium chloride and corn gluten meal.

They sell it at the Bunnings.

It is more expensive than the others,but wont harm the wildlife we have around here.And is supposed to be just as good at killing the rodent.
It wont harm anything else,even if eaten.

More on Google for those interested.

[trout1105]

The missus has made up a concoction out of plain flour, bicarb and sugar that seems to work OK.
Apparently a mouse can't fart and the bicarb buggers them up.

[350RRC]

The missus has made up a concoction out of plain flour, bicarb and sugar that seems to work OK.
Apparently a mouse can't fart and the bicarb buggers them up.

Rodents can't regurgitate.

[350RRC]

My sister was watching an old school slow stubble burn last week north of the divide.

There were about 40 kites having a great time picking off the mice ahead of the ash. We need more birds like this.

[trout1105]

WOOOHOOO Success a bit offencing wire a bucket acouple of hole saw plugs and a bit of pool noodle [thumbsupbig]

178397178398

[Vern]

Similar principle to our kitchen rubbish bin with the swinging lid idea, little buggers have no way out

[Saitch]

WOOOHOOO Success a bit offencing wire a bucket acouple of hole saw plugs and a bit of pool noodle [thumbsupbig]

178397178398

Might be a live market there in Herpetoculture!

[350RRC]

WOOOHOOO Success a bit offencing wire a bucket acouple of hole saw plugs and a bit of pool noodle [thumbsupbig]

178397178398

Too many moving parts. [biggrin]

A longneck with the bait on the end hanging over the bucket works even better. The tape holding the bottle to the bucket acts as grip initially. [bigrolf]

Triple your catch with a ladder so they can get on the bottle.

cheers, DL