How much do you know about Hydrogen?

[NavyDiver]

No cheating [biggrin] Mia Culpa -I got the number of Hydrogen vehicles on the road now wrong!

Quiz: How Much Do You Know About Hydrogen and Fuel Cells? | Department of Energy (https://www.energy.gov/articles/quiz-how-much-do-you-know-about-hydrogen-and-fuel-cells)

[John_D4]

I only got 6/11, which is technically a pass

[JDNSW]

Same here. I would query though the reliability of a website that uses volts to measure power! It makes you wonder just how good some of their other data is. Mind you some of the questions I really did not know the answer. For example, I knew about Goves' fuel cell, and that it was nineteenth century, but guessed 1879 not 1839.

[Homestar]

7/11 and one was a guess I got right. Dates, etc were a complete guess.

[FisherX]

8/11 with a couple of good guesses.

[NavyDiver]

Not a lot of people happy to share their score? Did it again and got 9 Stuffed up "6. Globally, how many hydrogen fuel cell cars are on the road?" I said 5000 and its is/was 30,000


So much development happening. The Big ones are Ballard, Plug Power, Nikola and Doosan Fuel Cells ( In not particular order) Siemens and Bosch as well ......



BMW is "The BMW Group will now be manufacturing highly efficient fuel cell systems at its in-house competence centre for hydrogen. This technology is one of the core elements in the BMW iX5 Hydrogen and generates a high continuous output of 125 kW/170 hp. It teams up with an electric motor featuring fifth-generation BMW eDrive technology and a high-performance battery purpose developed for this vehicle to enable its powertrain to deliver 275 kW/374 hp."

Another Canadian company I did not know about is shouting out
Hydrogen cost-parity with diesel cut by up to eight years with new Loop Energy fuel cell - Loop Energy


(https://loopenergy.com/news/h2-cost-parity-w-diesel-cut-by-8-years-w-loop-fuel-cell/)I wonder if "Anglo American’s newly named nuGen™ hydrogen powered truck " is related to this news a few months ago "Ballard announces orders for 31 fuel cell engines to a leading global construction, electric power & off-road equipment manufacturer

[B]VANCOUVER, CANADA – Ballard Power Systems (NASDAQ: BLDP; TSX: BLDP) is pleased to announce orders for 31 modules, totaling 3 MW of hydrogen fuel cell power, to a leading global construction, electric power, and off-road equipment manufacturer for testing and deployment in a variety of end-use applications. The modules are expected to be delivered in 2022 and 2023 to match planned integration, testing, and deployment schedules.
"

Some times it is join the dots with commercial in confidence clauses [bigwhistle][bigwhistle]

[NavyDiver]

Mothers day run in my PITA MG again. I love it and hate its failure to do 250km- Note on new report of how most EVs are actually doing promised ranges in EV thread[thumbsupbig][thumbsupbig][thumbsupbig]

6 hours to get home- DOH- 2 hours charging - 1 hours in Colac at a 7kwh per hour charger gave me enough to get to Toquay to do 80% charge in about 40 minutes at a Fast Charge not owned by a person I won't name[biggrin].

Colac really is PITA. Sat for an hour looking at 3 unused fast chargers I am not able use. Stopped by a Company/man I will not name. As an offended Navy Diver I refuse to buy that persons anything ever![bigrolf]

On the Bright Side I saw the Hydrogen car again. Noting it has just one refueling point in Victoria at present! Its range is 643ish km.

The skates are on happily in other Counties to Get Hydrogen used and likely moving soon.

It is highly likely we will be export hydrogen as hydrogen or as ammonia very soon. Mr Forrest via his money and imported ideas or my favorite Australian Perth based large scale Hydrogen pyrolysis company. Happy for it to be both of course!


Canada, Japan and France have already signed on to Our Perth version happily!

Korea in link below is making "Fewer than 1 per cent of the 6,000 cars Hyundai makes every day at its Ulsan plant in South Korea are powered by hydrogen." The Hydrogen Trucking side is running a bit faster. Hydrogen does make sense for the high distance sector in so many ways!

And my fishing, 4wd and touring replacement Disco of course!



Australian hydrogen in demand as South Korean manufacturers look to reach renewable energy target by 2050 - ABC News (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-05-15/south-korea-hydrogen-clean-energy-manufacturing-australia/102345294?utm_campaign=abc_news_web&utm_content=link&utm_medium=content_shared&utm_source=abc_news_web)

[101RRS]

EV range anxiety, you dont know what range anxiety is until you drive a dino 98 fuel V12 Jaguar - entertainment is watching the fuel gauge going down before your eyes, or changing tanks but the tank does not change an you got no usable dino fuel and then you stop.

Garry

[NavyDiver]

EV range anxiety, you dont know what range anxiety is until you drive a dino 98 fuel V12 Jaguar - entertainment is watching the fuel gauge going down before your eyes, or changing tanks but the tank does not change an you got no usable dino fuel and then you stop.

Garry
Got one better or close perhaps? DDG warships range was long if at cruising speeds! Once all four boilers on my baby (now a dive wreak) took off for a high speed test run with a supply ship following for a top up. 3 days at full power used every last drop. It took a few days of rock and roll for our fuel pump to catch up[thumbsupbig]

Wiki suggests "Over 5,000 nautical miles (9,300 km; 5,800 mi) at 18 knots (33 km/h; 21 mph)"

I know for a fact we could burn a LOT more a LOT faster[biggrin]

[John_D4]

Got one better or close perhaps? DDG warships range was long if at cruising speeds! Once all four boilers on my baby (now a dive wreak) took off for a high speed test run with a supply ship following for a top up. 3 days at full power used every last drop. It took a few days of rock and roll for our fuel pump to catch up[thumbsupbig]

Wiki suggests "Over 5,000 nautical miles (9,300 km; 5,800 mi) at 18 knots (33 km/h; 21 mph)"

I know for a fact we could burn a LOT more a LOT faster[biggrin]

I don’t suppose you’d know how many litres/100km a war ship would burn for us land based inquisitive people?

[NavyDiver]

I don’t suppose you’d know how many litres/100km a war ship would burn for us land based inquisitive people?

I think its measured in Tonnes of fuel [thumbsupbig]. I was going to ask some mates who are in the right area. My top deck type rating is funny as SONAR room was in the guts of the ship and Diving was often far below the engineering spaces [bigrolf]

Found a sort of science answer for you
"A hulking Arleigh Burke–class destroyer might typically burn a minimum of about 24 barrels (1,000 gallons) of fuel per hour"

The ship I mentioned was a Charlies F Adams class DDG (3,277 tons standard 4,526 full load)



The Arleigh Burke–class destroyer is displacement ranging from 8,300 to 9,700 tons. Thus we might be less than 1000 gallons per hour IF not speeding[biggrin][biggrin][biggrin]

FYI: What Kind Of Gas Mileage Can You Get From A Naval Warship? (https://www.popsci.com/technology/article/2012-09/fyi-what-kind-gas-mileage-can-you-get-naval-warship/)

[John_D4]

Interesting. Do you know how far a destroyer can travel in an hour?

[Homestar]

Interesting. Do you know how far a destroyer can travel in an hour?

According to Wikipedia around 56KM [emoji6]

Arleigh Burke-class destroyer - Wikipedia (https://en.m.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arleigh_Burke-class_destroyer)

[John_D4]

Wow roughly 7279lt/100km for a destroyer! Assuming $1.799/litre for diesel, that’s $13,094.92/100km or $130.95/km.

[Homestar]

Retail price for diesel in the USA is just over $1.00 per litre and I’m sure the Navy don’t pay retail. [emoji6]

[scarry]

Most of the big aircraft carriers,etc,use nuclear power.

[NavyDiver]

Interesting. Do you know how far a destroyer can travel in an hour?

I do for several types. Johns right yet some information is not really always correct. 100% power for example might be the safe zone[bigwhistle][bigwhistle]
[B]
The Danger Zone

A US navy DDG of the same type I love pushed it a bit + was moving very well above speed records until it blew up a boiler or two

Back to hydrogen to be boring [biggrin]


A Kiwi company FABRUM (https://fabrum.nz/) using a very cool storage and nifty "[B]Membrane-Free Electrolyser™ (MFE) with cryogenic separation to deliver pure hydrogen and pure oxygen as separate gases" from Our Technology | CPH2 (https://www.cph2.com/our-technology/)Is very interesting any where spare cheap power is available perhaps.

Tasmania was in the News with possible off take agreements for its c02 free hydrogen.

[NavyDiver]

Reading about tug boats, trucks, tractors and more powered by ammonia via a large investment fund (AP Ventures) about Amogy - Link below


Merks and others trying Ammonia for shipping I understand as well.

time line was tight!!


[B]July— Successfully engineered the first-ever ammonia-powered emission-free drone flight at a 5kW scale

May— Successfully demonstrated a 100kW powerpack in a tractor, scaling 20x in less than a year

January—Presented the world’s first ammonia-powered semi-truck by scaling the powerpack to 300kW
Late 2023— Targeting to scale the powerpack to 1MW for a tugboat demonstration, initiating the commercialization of Amogy technology


Home - Amogy (https://amogy.co/)


Maersk is the bigget shipping company I think, It also neglects to say it will be using Hydrogen to make the ammonia

"With A.P. Moller - Maersk as one of the collaborators, Copenhagen Infrastructure Partners (CIP) has unveiled plans for the establishment of Europe’s largest production facility of green ammonia. A.P. Moller - Maersk is on a quest to find the marine fuels of the future with green ammonia being one of three preferred fuel types.

The Power-to-X facility located in Esbjerg on the Danish west coast will convert power from wind turbines to green ammonia. The green ammonia produced at the facility can be utilized by the agricultural sector as green fertilizer and by the shipping industry as a truly sustainable green fuel.

A.P. Moller - Maersk along with Danish companies Arla, Danish Crown, DLG and DFDS has signed a memorandum of understanding, committing to work towards realizing the establishment of the facility as well as supporting the off-take of the green ammonia from the facility once it is ready to be delivered to the market."

https://www.maersk.com/news/articles/2021/02/23/maersk-backs-plan-to-build-europe-largest-green-ammonia-facility


[biggrin]
(https://www.maersk.com/news/articles/2021/02/23/maersk-backs-plan-to-build-europe-largest-green-ammonia-facility)

[NavyDiver]

"Jemena said it had identified enough potential sources of biomethane – including wastewater plants, landfill, food, agricultural, and crop waste – to generate about 30 petajoules of biomethane each year" link to story which is not on hydrogen yet (https://www.theage.com.au/business/companies/waste-flushed-down-toilets-to-begin-fuelling-gas-network-20230614-p5dggb.html) [biggrin][biggrin]

Just listened to a presentation by the cool poo farm hydrogen project in WA. The Cost of hydrogen via that process will be Seven times cheaper than Electrolysis !

The 100Mtpa plant in WA and 3 500 Mtpa in Japan, Canada and France suggesting the start of this which if 10 plants only covers 1% of existing dirty hydrogen replacement is going to be big.


The presentation may be on Hazer Groups web site in a few days. I am biased of course. The link to NSW 30 ptj of biomeathane is a thought bubble only!

[John_D4]

"Jemena said it had identified enough potential sources of biomethane – including wastewater plants, landfill, food, agricultural, and crop waste – to generate about 30 petajoules of biomethane each year" link to story which is not on hydrogen yet (https://www.theage.com.au/business/companies/waste-flushed-down-toilets-to-begin-fuelling-gas-network-20230614-p5dggb.html) [biggrin][biggrin]

Just listened to a presentation by the cool poo farm hydrogen project in WA. The Cost of hydrogen via that process will be Seven times cheaper than Electrolysis !

The 100Mtpa plant in WA and 3 500 Mtpa in Japan, Canada and France suggesting the start of this which if 10 plants only covers 1% of existing dirty hydrogen replacement is going to be big.


The presentation may be on Hazer Groups web site in a few days. I am biased of course. The link to NSW 30 ptj of biomeathane is a thought bubble only!

Are you bias because you create lots of methane each day? [emoji4]

[NavyDiver]

Are you bias because you create lots of methane each day? [emoji4]

Heck - I haven't lived in NSW for 28 years. If it my methane it was a POWERFUL Dump[bigrolf]

[NavyDiver]

Hydrogen news got you down in the dumps? Try Dumster news then :)



Hydrogen-powered garbage truck hits streets in the IllawarraWaste services and recycling company Remondis started using the 110-kilowatt electric vehicle, which is both environmentally friendly and significantly quieter than a diesel truck – in its operations in Wollongong and Shellharbour today.
Regional manager Chris Wade said the company wanted to demonstrate how carbon-free transport could work in an industrial setting.

Key points:

The vehicle operates by combining hydrogen with air to generate electricity
It is purported to be 60 per cent quieter than diesel-powered waste collection trucks
It has a range of about 200 kilometres and the capacity to carry out about 1,000 bin-lifts



Hydrogen-powered garbage truck arrives in the Illawarra (https://www.aulro.com/afvb/Hydrogen-powered garbage truck arrives in the Illawarra)


and
The truck will result in 25,000 litres of diesel fuel being saved annually – the amount a conventional diesel-powered waste collection truck of this size uses. Up to 75 tonnes of carbon emissions would also be eliminated each year.



The truck is also significantly quieter than diesel trucks. from Big Rigs (https://bigrigs.com.au/2023/10/18/hydrogen-powered-garbage-truck-launches-in-illawarra/)
The diesel garbage truck here is rather LOUD. Luckily I am up at the time it comes past :)

[John_D4]

Wow, that makes our sound like the perfect vehicle.

[NavyDiver]

Wow, that makes our sound like the perfect vehicle.

Sound? I was hoping for quiet[thumbsupbig] Just kidding John[thumbsupbig]

[John_D4]

Sorry didn’t see that typo before pressing send. Meant to say that it sounds like the perfect vehicle for that job

[VladTepes]

All I know is:
Atomic number 1
Light
Sub-par for airships :)

[NavyDiver]

All I know is:
Atomic number 1
Light
Sub-par for airships :)
Try this one "At last count, WA imports about 7.8 billion litres of diesel per year, equivalent to 2 billion kilograms of hydrogen"

That is a interesting number I thought Link to inprincipled idea maybe perhaps (https://www.msn.com/en-au/money/markets/frontier-energy-partners-with-city-of-perth-for-wa-s-first-green-hydrogen-refuelling-station/ar-AA1jr2Gc?ocid=msedgntp&cvid=ad06d46b17fa4ea7a0c23d0d1a0c4bb0&ei=12).[biggrin]

As was a poo plant I have been watching for years [biggrin]

NOT INVESTNENT ADVICE!!!
Not Maybe and Not perhaps at Woodmans Point! Link (http://CDP Drives Towards Start-Up As Reactor Fabrication Completed)
Less than 50KM from 18-20 Ledgar Rd, Balcatta to Woodmans Point and my thoughts only!!!!

I have a bit of interest in SMR- Small Modular Reactors in the Nuclear Power area. Looking at the reactor for the CDP makes it clear that scaling the reactors up and replication of it would be very similar for Mass-production.
for Hazer Projects already and the ones we do not yet see [bigrolf][bigrolf][bigrolf]


Suncor and FortisBC Energy to develop a 2500 tonne per annum hydrogen project
Hazer and ENGIE Project Development Plan (“PDP”) at Montoir-de-Bretagne in France he planned production facility is targeting an initial production capacity of at least 2,500 tonne per annum (tpa) of hydrogen
Nagoya-based Chubu Electric Power Company Inc. and Chiyoda Corporation to work together on a Project Development Plan (PDP) up to 100,000 tpa


The scale up via adding extra reactor Modules and in increasing the reactor size is both achievable.

[NavyDiver]

"The EU has budgeted €45 billion (https://hydrogeneurope.eu/toyota-h2-factory-scaling-up-its-european-activities/) for building a network of hydrogen fueling stations throughout the continent by 2030. By official mandate, every arterial road must have hydrogen pumps no farther than 200km apart (about 125 miles). This will eliminate hydrogen's biggest hurdle: the simple question of "But where to I refill it?""

this is fromProof That Toyota Is Betting Big On Hydrogen Despite The Development Of Its 745-mile Solid-state Battery (https://www.topspeed.com/toyota-betting-big-on-hydrogen-despite-745-mile-solid-state-battery/)Bets are not my thing. I am possibly the world's worst gambler despite taking several thousand from Hobart Casino once. Not giving it back https://hotcopper.com.au/styles/default/xenforo/clear.png

"Toyota intends to sell at least 100,000 hydrogen cars per year by 2030 (https://www.greencarreports.com/news/1141566_toyota-more-hydrogen-than-solid-state-evs-by-2030)."

At a quick estimate of units I thought of "average distance traveled in cars per year EU" Link (https://ec.europa.eu/eurostat/statistics-explained/index.php?oldid=541810#Distance_covered) is not new. About 15 per day or *365 5000km ish per year. I put 3000km on my new MG4 in the last 3 weeks https://hotcopper.com.au/styles/default/xenforo/clear.png

MG has "What is the equivalent fuel consumption of an electric car?01-07-2022
We are all used to the fact that the fuel consumption of a petrol or diesel car is expressed in litres per hundred kilometres (l/100 km). Many motorists can immediately estimate whether that’s on the high or low side in relation to the car. But what about an electric car? And how do I know whether an electric car is efficient or not? Find out everything you need to know. (https://news.mgmotor.eu/what-is-the-equivalent-fuel-consumption-of-an-electric-car/)
"
It claims " a litre of petrol contains about 8.9 kWh of energy. If we convert this and compare it with the energy consumption of the MG5 Electric Long Range (15.3 kWh/100 km divided by 8.9 kWh/litre), you have an equivalent fuel consumption of just 1.7 l/100 km."

My MG4 seems to be a bit better per 100km traveled yet it will not do "of "Range of up to 435km‡". The "‡" means come in spinner. so caution is required of course. Canadian numbers agree (https://natural-resources.canada.ca/energy-efficiency/transportation-alternative-fuels/personal-vehicles/choosing-right-vehicle/buying-electric-vehicle/understanding-the-tables/21383)with 1 litre of petrol being 8.9kWh of energy.

A Kilogram of Hydrogen is "A kilogramme of hydrogen - the unit most often used – has an energy value of about 33.3 kWh.[1] So a tonne of hydrogen delivers about 33 MWh and a million tonnes about 33 terawatt hours (https://www.carboncommentary.com/blog/2021/6/11/some-rules-of-thumb-of-the-hydrogen-economy)"


Back to EU Toyota with 100,000 cars (or others ) each traveling 5000km or so per year. how much hydrogen does Toyota mirai use per 100km showed 0.55 kg/100km.

My very rough number for hydrogen consumption is therefore 275kg of hydrogen per car or 27,500,000 kilos for 100,000 hydrogen cars!
The Hazer CDP is Approximately 100 tonnes per annum capacity.

"Chubu Electric would use the hydrogen from the potential Japanese plant as a fuel for power generation and other hard-to-abate industries, including transport, in the Nagoya area.“We believe the Hazer technology offers an attractive solution to locally produce low carbon hydrogen, using our existing supply chains and infrastructure,” Kouji Sada, Chubu’s general manager of electric power research, said.The plant would produce between 50,000 and 100,000 tonnes of hydrogen a year after beginning at 2500 and 10,000 tonnes in the late 2020s. The companies aim to finalise a binding deal by mid-2024.Japan is one of the strongest advocates of hydrogen, becoming the first country in the world to draw up a national plan for its use in 2017."

Canada "Hazer-BC Project, based in Vancouver, British Columbia, is a joint venture to develop a commercial Hazer
plant designed to produce up to 2,500 tonnes per annum (tpa) of hydrogen, a scale-up of 25 times on the
Commercial Demonstration Plant (“CDP”)."



Pure fun in my numbers. Excuse me if any errors. NOT INVESTMENT ADVICE

[spudfan]

Did not bother with the test as my knowledge of hydrogen is a bit on the light side....

[Tombie]

My knowledge of Hydrogen processing is increasing.
Tied in with the Point Lowly project now…..

[AK83]

.....


Back to EU Toyota with 100,000 cars (or others ) each traveling 5000km or so per year. how much hydrogen does Toyota mirai use per 100km showed 0.55 kg/100km.

My very rough number for hydrogen consumption is therefore 275kg of hydrogen per car or 27,500,000 kilos for 100,000 hydrogen cars!
.....

Who's numbers are these?

Quite the basic math error induced in this section.

0.55kg/100km at 5000km per year equates to 275kg of H2 per year?

Do you think it should have been 27.5kg per year ... therefore 2,750,000 kg of H2 per year for 100,000 cars. 2750 tons per year.

I had a bit of a peek around and found that the 0.55kg/100 figure was done in France by a team of drivers in 'eco mode' trying to achieve a world record having driven 1003klm on a tank in the Mirai.
So real world values would be greater than 0.055kg/100 anyhow ... but the math did my head in and I had to respond.

[NavyDiver]

Hydrogen-powered trucks in China to cost less than their diesel peers by 2027: Refire Group


China’s hydrogen economy is currently moving from a policy-driven one to a market-driven one, providing a huge boost to the industry: Refire CEO
The country has reduced the manufacturing cost of hydrogen fuel cell systems from over 30,000 yuan per kilowatt in 2015 to below 4,000 yuan now, says CEO Robin Lin



--Hydrogen-powered trucks are expected to reach life-cycle cost parity with their fossil-fuel-burning peers in China by 2027 even without the aid of subsidies, a milestone which the world’s biggest producer and consumer of the zero-emission energy source, seeks to achieve eight years ahead of Europe."

Noting China has done it in EV, Battery and Solar panels this claim seems possible
I do chuckle at times at the like of BMW/MERC grumpy about China exporting EVs [biggrin][biggrin][biggrin] and USA protectionism in a not so free trade country[bigwhistle][bigwhistle][bigwhistle]

"According to Lin, China has seen significant reduction in the manufacturing cost of hydrogen fuel cell systems, which account for roughly half the cost of a hydrogen vehicle. The cost has dived from over 30,000 yuan per kilowatt in 2015 to less than 4,000 yuan per kilowatt now."

Edit- Link to SCMP Hydrogen-powered trucks in China to cost less than their diesel peers by 2027: Refire Group | South China Morning Post (scmp.com)

and REFIRE REFIRE | A new generation of Hydrogen-Electric Energy & Power (https://en.refire.com/)

[Homestar]

I was speaking to some research Engineers last week who are working on alternate fuel sources to petrol and diesel and they aren’t convinced Hydrogen will or can be rolled out in mass due to the issues in transporting it and the pressures it needs to be under.

Ammonia is a fuel that is far easier to move and is mainly hydrogen anyway with massive infrastructure already in place due to its use in agriculture. It’s also renewable (longer term as you need a good whack of electricity to make it) but it’s only nitrogen and hydrogen.

It’s not as easy to get an engine running on it but it is possible. I’m interested as to where this will go (if anywhere) but interesting none the less.

[Colmoore]

Apparently there’s an aviation firm test running 2 helicopters that run on hydrogen and electricity out at Bankstown at the moment.
The machines are currently hovering tethered to put some hours on under load

[John_D4]

Reminds me of the Hindenburg

[NavyDiver]

Reminds me of the Hindenburg

Great movie. "the reigning hypothesis now is a combination of static electricity built up as the airship flew, and an unusual type of “dope” used to cover the canvas of the hydrogen-storage areas: paint that rendered the canvas gas impervious but also appears to have been highly flammable. The “incendiary paint” was a mix of iron oxide and aluminum-impregnated cellulose, which are reactive together even after drying.
“My friend, Addison Bain (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Addison_Bain), has a theory that the canvas skin was doped,” Crouch says, “and it was flammable…. He wrote a book about it. And as a former rocket scientist at NASA, he’s familiar with how propellants work.” Basically, Bain’s theory is that the Hindenburg was painted with rocket fuel. "
What Really Felled the Hindenburg? | Smithsonian (smithsonianmag.com) (https://www.smithsonianmag.com/smithsonian-institution/80th-anniversary-hindenburg-disaster-mysteries-remain-180963107/)

Noticed Canada. Korea, Japan and France getting very interested in Hydrogen Pyrolysis from our Australian University and now Australian Company[thumbsupbig] NOT INVESTMENT ADVICE!!!!!!!!!

"Hazer signs MoU with POSCO"

"POSCO, based in Pohang South Korea, is one of the world’s largest steel makers and has announced its plan to achieve carbon neutrality by 2050. With POSCO Holdings in the lead, POSCO Group is seeking balanced growth across seven core businesses: steel, rechargeable battery materials, lithium/nickel, hydrogen, energy, construction/infrastructure and agri-bio."

The Canadian might be next after Perth's Commercial demonstration plant which is now in operation- **** story really[bigrolf][bigrolf][bigrolf][bigrolf] It is at Woodmans Point Waste water treatment plant honestly treating in IT without treading in IT[bigwhistle]