New Defender envy?

[barney]

I live on the Northern Beaches of Sydney and work on the Lower North Shore, so I see plenty of new Defenders driving around.

I got to drive one about 8 months ago and was very impressed.
I got an initiated wave from a guy in a black one the other day.
I saw one with a dead headlight the other day.
I've been overtaken by many of them.

They are a very cool vehicle and if I had any chance of making enough money to not only buy one, but maintain it as well, I would probably do it. But I can barely maintain the two I have.
But given the limited space in the back of the 110 and my intimate knowledge of the shortcomings of a vehicle so dependant on computers for everything, my 1984 110 V8 and my 2003 TD5 90 would be staying if I ever planned to do any extended trips into the unknown.

The original Defender was classless. It was the favourite car of farmers, company directors, tradesmen and royalty. Now, with the new one, as they are so much more expensive than the previous models were, it is creating a class-divide.

Gone is rugged "go anywhere, I don't care if my feet get wet, drive in the rain with the window down because I have to put my elbow out" that some will be glad to see the tail end of, but if they didn't like it, they could always buy a disco. The comradeship between Defender owners is fading as there are now 2 groups, or is it 2 classes? Your traditional Defender owner could be anyone - you just never knew by their vehicle. The New Defender owner is earning a fair bit of money (or has no mortgage or kids) will probably drive around in the bush with the windows up and climate control on in dead silence "enjoying" the great outdoors.
I have always argued that you are not really experiencing 4wding in the Australian bush unless you are getting smashed in the face by wayward branches every now and then or trying to shoo a wasp/bee/spider/bull ant out of your cabin while trying not to run into a tree.

A lot of people will disagree with me and say I'm just jealous. I'm not, I'm just a bit disappointed.

I still think it's a great vehicle, but my budget will never stretch that far and I'm ok with that.

[one_iota]

Lots of food for thought there Barney....as a current "classic" Defender owner and new "Defender" aspirant I'll have to compose my thoughts and reply when those thoughts have been gathered.

[chuck]

Must admit that sums me up to - disappointed.

I priced up a what i thought was a nice Defender and it came to $136,000.

I even left off a few big ticket items.

Significantly more expensive than my D5.

[grey_ghost]

There is so much that could be said on this - essentially it all has been already.

But - the old Defender is dead. It wasn’t profitable, it didn’t meet strict regulations in the USA/EU, and at the end of the day - people simply weren’t buying it enough.

If the old Defender was so great - how come nobody bought it?

Yes the new Defender isn’t the same as the old one, but it was never going to be.

It’s like someone saying “I love my old B&W television. It had valves, rarely broke down, and was easy to tune.”

Yeah - I get that, but the government moved away from Analogue, forcing manufacturers to go Digital, with remote controls, streaming, apps, many more channels, lighter units, bigger units (can you imagine an 80” CRT screen?!)

Was land rover going to build a new Defender without the same (or more) tech than it’s rivals? Well clearly the answer is no.

Let’s all be honest with ourselves - we all like to think that we are outback adventures (me included), but how much time do we really spend driving a vehicle in the “hard” or “extreme” conditions versus on the bitumen getting there! (Hell it is bitumen all the way to Marree now!)

Not as much as we would all like.

So Land Rover built a vehicle that is great on road, and great off road.. And they can’t make enough of them.

LR were never going to build a new Defender that was the same as the old one, which wasn’t selling….

Look at the Grenadier - it was going to be everything that the new Defender wasn’t… It isn’t built in the UK (the economics didn’t add up), it has a BMW engine, it’s automatic, and it has plenty of electronics in it (touch screen anyone?). I am not saying that it’s not a great vehicle - what I am saying is that when they designed it, they realised that due to regulations/economics - they couldn’t build an old Defender and make money.

Live and let live I rekon!

Remembering - I drive an FFR, 101, Series 2, Disco 1, 4DR RRC, Freelander 1 and am restoring a 2DR RRC and Series 1.. So I love my old Landy’s.

But I think that the new Defender (although expensive) is what it should be…

Just my opinion though.

Cheers,
GG

[I Love My Landy!]

Very well written Barney! I could sympathise with many of your thoughts.

I was hoping that the new Defender was going to be affordable and so much better than the old Defender that people would move on from the old ones and prices for them would drop so I could finally afford to upgrade from my 600,000 km old 110, but alas, everything has done the opposite!

I won't be buying a new one. They don't appeal to me. Being worth about $120,000 more than what I can afford doesn't help either... I do hope that the owners of the new ones love them though!

Edward :)

[I Love My Landy!]

(Hell it is bitumen all the way to Marree now!)

GG

Wow! :o

[chuck]

Not disappointed with the car - disappointed with the price.

Originally during development it was marketed as being more affordable than it ended up.

I guess that was the disappointment waiting for the release for so long & then finding out the price.

[TB]

Barney, those are insightful thoughts well expressed. Nice one.

Just want to reassure you though that when I'm in low range among the trees in my new 110, the aircon is switched off, the windows are down and the sunroof is at least cracked if not fully open. How can you enjoy the bush if you can't hear it or smell it?

Come to think of it, I'm yet to hand wash this thing (it's had the cheapest brushless car wash treatment a fair few times) and I smile to myself at seeing the dirt on the rubber floor in the drivers footwell. No fully-capable modern 4WD is cheap, but even so I don't think the Defender spirit is actually departed yet.

[jon3950]

I think one only needs to compare it to the 300 Series. Starts to look like good value. At least its a modern design.

[one_iota]

Lots of food for thought there Barney....as a current "classic" Defender owner and new "Defender" aspirant I'll have to compose my thoughts and reply when those thoughts have been gathered.

GreyGhost covered a lot of ground with that reply.

So some thoughts to share:

As I am looking 10 years ahead my beloved Defender will be quite old like me so replacement now is warranted. If I was to let my head rule my heart the obvious replacement is a Toyota 70 series but as a LR tragic that would be unthinkable. Of course, I could keep my old Defender and have a new "Defender". That would deprive someone else of the experience and take up room in the shed.

The second thought gets a bit esoteric. There is a book called "Status Anxiety" written by Alain de Botton. In this book he touches a lot of nerves...so many I couldn't finish it. My anxiety is that being an owner of a new Defender will demote me from my current status of owning a cool and characterful vehicle to being a ****** with way too much money looked down upon by owners of said "Classic" Defenders. Of course, the only way to deal with this is to wave.

Defender is only a name. Land Rover is the brand.

[Wojer]

I live on the Northern Beaches of Sydney and work on the Lower North Shore, so I see plenty of new Defenders driving around.

I got to drive one about 8 months ago and was very impressed.
I got an initiated wave from a guy in a black one the other day.
I saw one with a dead headlight the other day.
I've been overtaken by many of them.

They are a very cool vehicle and if I had any chance of making enough money to not only buy one, but maintain it as well, I would probably do it. But I can barely maintain the two I have.
But given the limited space in the back of the 110 and my intimate knowledge of the shortcomings of a vehicle so dependant on computers for everything, my 1984 110 V8 and my 2003 TD5 90 would be staying if I ever planned to do any extended trips into the unknown.

The original Defender was classless. It was the favourite car of farmers, company directors, tradesmen and royalty. Now, with the new one, as they are so much more expensive than the previous models were, it is creating a class-divide.

Gone is rugged "go anywhere, I don't care if my feet get wet, drive in the rain with the window down because I have to put my elbow out" that some will be glad to see the tail end of, but if they didn't like it, they could always buy a disco. The comradeship between Defender owners is fading as there are now 2 groups, or is it 2 classes? Your traditional Defender owner could be anyone - you just never knew by their vehicle. The New Defender owner is earning a fair bit of money (or has no mortgage or kids) will probably drive around in the bush with the windows up and climate control on in dead silence "enjoying" the great outdoors.
I have always argued that you are not really experiencing 4wding in the Australian bush unless you are getting smashed in the face by wayward branches every now and then or trying to shoo a wasp/bee/spider/bull ant out of your cabin while trying not to run into a tree.

A lot of people will disagree with me and say I'm just jealous. I'm not, I'm just a bit disappointed.

I still think it's a great vehicle, but my budget will never stretch that far and I'm ok with that.

So true Barney.
The many Defender owners I know within the 4WDing community have a commitment to the original Defender concept. Do we need all the latest computer gizmos I ask? No we survive in the bush without them, even though I am now a proud Discovery owner.

I equate it to the rebirth of the Mini, long lost many years ago. The original concept was simple, easy to maintain etc, affordable for the young generation and we loved them. What do we have now, yes a rebirth in which you could fit the elephants in![biggrin]

[DeeJay]

There is so much that could be said on this - essentially it all has been already.

But - the old Defender is dead. It wasn’t profitable, it didn’t meet strict regulations in the USA/EU, and at the end of the day - people simply weren’t buying it enough.

If the old Defender was so great - how come nobody bought it?

Yes the new Defender isn’t the same as the old one, but it was never going to be.

It’s like someone saying “I love my old B&W television. It had valves, rarely broke down, and was easy to tune.”

Yeah - I get that, but the government moved away from Analogue, forcing manufacturers to go Digital, with remote controls, streaming, apps, many more channels, lighter units, bigger units (can you imagine an 80” CRT screen?!)

Was land rover going to build a new Defender without the same (or more) tech than it’s rivals? Well clearly the answer is no.

Let’s all be honest with ourselves - we all like to think that we are outback adventures (me included), but how much time do we really spend driving a vehicle in the “hard” or “extreme” conditions versus on the bitumen getting there! (Hell it is bitumen all the way to Marree now!)

Not as much as we would all like.

So Land Rover built a vehicle that is great on road, and great off road.. And they can’t make enough of them.

LR were never going to build a new Defender that was the same as the old one, which wasn’t selling….

Look at the Grenadier - it was going to be everything that the new Defender wasn’t… It isn’t built in the UK (the economics didn’t add up), it has a BMW engine, it’s automatic, and it has plenty of electronics in it (touch screen anyone?). I am not saying that it’s not a great vehicle - what I am saying is that when they designed it, they realised that due to regulations/economics - they couldn’t build an old Defender and make money.

Live and let live I rekon!

Remembering - I drive an FFR, 101, Series 2, Disco 1, 4DR RRC, Freelander 1 and am restoring a 2DR RRC and Series 1.. So I love my old Landy’s.

But I think that the new Defender (although expensive) is what it should be…

Just my opinion though.

Cheers,
GG

I can easily explain this- price- without delving through my archives & old magazines, Series, Counties & Defenders were - & are still ( I think) more expensive than Toyotas & Nissans. Even Stage 1's were 11k when a Toyota was about 8.5k.
A mate of mine ended up running a fleet of Hire Toyotas in the early/mid 70's and being a L/R enthusiast went to JRA for an initial supply of 40 plus. Toyota & especially Nissan offered big $$ discounts and what did they offer off Land Rovers- Nothing- nilch, nada... so you have to wonder if that mentality carried through to the end of the Defender ( as we know it).
David

[one_iota]

I can easily explain this- price- without delving through my archives & old magazines, Series, Counties & Defenders were - & are still ( I think) more expensive than Toyotas & Nissans. Even Stage 1's were 11k when a Toyota was about 8.5k.
A mate of mine ended up running a fleet of Hire Toyotas in the early/mid 70's and being a L/R enthusiast went to JRA for an initial supply of 40 plus. Toyota & especially Nissan offered big $$ discounts and what did they offer off Land Rovers- Nothing- nilch, nada... so you have to wonder if that mentality carried through to the end of the Defender ( as we know it).
David

...and if I calculate what my 2008 Defender would cost in today's dollars according to the RBA calculator it would cost $65,000...not cheap.

[gusthedog]

It's not just defenders that cost a bomb. I wonder how people can afford new at all.

Supposedly I'm on an ok wage but also have 3 kids. I have just bought a D1 again which topped out my budget. All up I will be in for $10-$11k on it when set up the way I want..

I will take it anywhere once done. It is comfortable enough, and the aircon works. Why spend so much $ on a car that basically does the same thing?

I also think the environmental friendliness of new cars is offset by the mining and resource extraction used to create them. Isn't it better to keep older vehicles going compared to buying new? Until we can fully recycle old for new, that's my plan.

Anyway, it's an interesting conundrum. No one waves at us disco owners either [emoji1787]

[one_iota]

It's not just defenders that cost a bomb. I wonder how people can afford new at all.

Supposedly I'm on an ok wage but also have 3 kids. I have just bought a D1 again which topped out my budget. All up I will be in for $10-$11k on it when set up the way I want..

I will take it anywhere once done. It is comfortable enough, and the aircon works. Why spend so much $ on a car that basically does the same thing?

I also think the environmental friendliness of new cars is offset by the mining and resource extraction used to create them. Isn't it better to keep older vehicles going compared to buying new? Until we can fully recycle old for new, that's my plan.

Anyway, it's an interesting conundrum. No one waves at us disco owners either [emoji1787]

I agree with the conundrum. For someone to be able to buy a second-hand vehicle someone needed to have bought that vehicle new. So if you buy a new one keep it for as long as possible. Novated leases tend to influence the turnover....not my problem.

As a former D1 owner I wave! [biggrin]

[scarry]

...and if I calculate what my 2008 Defender would cost in today's dollars according to the RBA calculator it would cost $65,000...not cheap.

If it is a 110,and in excellent condition,it will sell for close to that second hand today,no worries at all.

The one in my sig was sold recently so i have an idea of the market,its rediculous.

[100inch]

It's not just defenders that cost a bomb. I wonder how people can afford new at all.

Supposedly I'm on an ok wage but also have 3 kids. I have just bought a D1 again which topped out my budget. All up I will be in for $10-$11k on it when set up the way I want..

I will take it anywhere once done. It is comfortable enough, and the aircon works. Why spend so much $ on a car that basically does the same thing?

I also think the environmental friendliness of new cars is offset by the mining and resource extraction used to create them. Isn't it better to keep older vehicles going compared to buying new? Until we can fully recycle old for new, that's my plan.

Anyway, it's an interesting conundrum. No one waves at us disco owners either [emoji1787]

I agree on the comment of price changes across pretty much everything.
But the spending vs doing the same thing is far for from the reality.
There is a reason people buying RR's (and whatever else) the last 50 plus years. Once you live with such a car in everyday life, you quickly realise the differences it actually makes. People comparing the new Defender to anything 10-20years older or lets say Japanese, missing the point by miles. Same goes for flying economy vs business. Yes, both going A to B but I know which one I prefer.
Do I enjoy driving classic Defenders? Of course, but for most everyday life chores I still grab the RRS keys cause it is much more practical and a fun drive too.
But as the topics says, there is envy. Will people who buying new cars care? I wouldn't. m

[DiscoJeffster]

I can get a new Kia Carnival 2021 8 seater. The new model is light years ahead and $56k. Ok, it’s no LR, but 8 seater competition

It’ll take me nearly 3 times that to get into the Defer. Again cross purposes I know, but is it 3 times the worth?

I love my D4 to bits, and with the new price of the Defer, that will be my love for a long time yet. I cannot comprehend those prices, especially for v1 of the product.

[100inch]

I can get a new Kia Carnival 2021 8 seater. The new model is light years ahead and $56k. Ok, it’s no LR, but 8 seater competition

It’ll take me nearly 3 times that to get into the Defer. Again cross purposes I know, but is it 3 times the worth?

I love my D4 to bits, and with the new price of the Defer, that will be my love for a long time yet. I cannot comprehend those prices, especially for v1 of the product.

172814
Yes I saw you driving.....honestly. Comparing Kia's?

[Xtreme]

When my (late) father bought a new 109 Series 3 Hardtop in the mid 70's it was half the price of a Range Rover (approx. $3500 compared to $7000). Not the same ratio these days!

[100inch]

When my (late) father bought a new 109 Series 3 Hardtop in the mid 70's it was half the price of a Range Rover (approx. $3500 compared to $7000). Not the same ratio these days!
Half decent spec full size RR gets quickly over 300k.....even higher spec Sport goes towards 200k and that's for diesels. m

[Xtreme]

Fair enough but I was thinking of base models. Additions blow prices out of all proportion.

[rar110]

Barney,
I get everything your saying.

In my opinion new Defender is priced about 10k more than it should be to compete effectively. However, the number out there driving around suggests plenty of people have a different opinion.

I’m a similar demographic to you I think (and some others in this thread), and am seriously looking for probably a new car (used are priced more than new in some sectors) that will do what I want for the next 10 or 15 years.

I’m open to anything really, but would prefer a land rover. The new vehicle needs to tick the essentials - safe, comfortable, capable off road, capable of towing, carry a reasonable amount of gear (and tow), able to be applied to rural work (carry gear and not be worried about interior, and reliable (especially if a long way from home) over that period of ownership (10-15 years). Permanent 4WD, rear disc brakes, and coils or EAS are highly desirable features.

I currently have a 2008 L322 tdv8, a perentie wagon and a D1 300tdi (currently getting rebuilt). Of the cars I own (after the engine rebuild) the D1 is probably the best scoring against all the criteria. But the D1 is now 23 years old.

If I want new the outlay starts at about $60k for a base Paj Sport with upgraded suspension, about $75k for a Prado (permanent 4WD) again with upgraded suspension, then Ute options for about the same price, then up to the 76/79 series which starts at about $80k again with upgraded suspension and a few comforts, add another $15k for rear coils. When I say upgraded suspension I mean something that provides at least 1 tonne payload, engineer approved pre-registration.

Compare that against a base petrol Defender at $90k with EAS, tow pack, tinting, and rear diff lock, which scores pretty well. Again IMHO about $10k too much. Also, unfortunately its carrying capacity is limited to 785kg.

A 2005 td5 defender (not a fan of the Puma) would also score highly. A low km, looked after example is now quite a few $ for a 16 year old vehicle.

So the choice is not easy.

[rar110]

With the new Defender, there’s also the uncertainty about part time/permanent 4WD as discussed in one_iota’s thread.