Covid Mk ll

[V8Ian]

The existing Covid thread has reached over 13000 posts. Previously, large threads such as the jokes and funny pictures, crashed when they got to a similar size. The Mods are pre-empting this issue by locking the existing thread and opening Covid Mk ll.
While we are at it.....
The existing Covid thread has caused much angst and work for the Mods and Admins. The Mods and Admins are determined that the new version will be more harmonious and less time consuming. To this end, the rules of access will be strictly enforced. Personal attacks, aggressive and parochial posts in particular will be deleted and infractions issued. Links with little or no discussion and plagiarism will also be removed, with infractions delivered.
As this is basically a technical thread, off topic and banter will no longer be acceptable.
The stricter stance has been bought about by the new Google Adsence rules, about to be enforced upon this site by Google and the the inordinate amount of time the moderation team has had to devote to the old thread.

[Arapiles]

The existing Covid thread has reached over 13000 posts. Previously, large threads such as the jokes and funny pictures, crashed when they got to a similar size. The Mods are pre-empting this issue by locking the existing thread and opening Covid Mk ll.
The existing Covid thread has caused much angst and work for the Mods and Admins. The Mods and Admins are determined that the new version will be more harmonious and less time consuming. To this end, the rules of access will be strictly enforced. Personal attacks, aggressive and parochial posts in particular will be deleted and infractions issued. Links with little or no discussion and plagiarism will also be removed, with infractions delivered.
As this is basically a technical thread, off topic and banter will no longer be acceptable.
The change in stance has been bought about by the new Google Adsence rules and the the inordinate amount of time the moderation team has had to devote to the old thread.

Covid Mk 11 - so this is the Delta thread?

[Arapiles]

There's been a heap of news articles recently about how the rest of the world is opening up, back to normal etc and the articles usually interview Aussie expats who are making snarky comments about us being locked down and borders closed.

For a bit of balance (and following on from 350RRC's now locked post):

USA

"Back to normal" article:

Life for Australians in Seattle, America's most vaccinated city, is getting back to normal (https://www.traveller.com.au/life-for-australians-in-seattle-americas-most-vaccinated-city-is-getting-back-to-normal-h1x6sw)

But deaths in Washington State are still averaging 10 a day, so it's a fairly deadly "normal".

https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/health/coronavirus-daily-news-updates-august-18-what-to-know-today-about-covid-19-in-the-seattle-area-washington-state-and-the-world-2/

ICUs in Alaska and Washington under stress:

https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/northwest/covid-19-cases-stress-anchorage-intensive-care-units/

The US generally is still getting 700 deaths a day - which is +95% in the last month - for a total of 624,365 deaths:



Hospitalizations nationwide now exceed every previous peak except last winter’s. More than 700 deaths are being reported each day, on average, a figure that has more than doubled since the start of August. Deaths have so far remained far below past records, but can lag case data by weeks.

Covid in the U.S.: Latest Map and Case Count - The New York Times (https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/us/covid-cases.html)

Italy

This article provoked a fair bit of anger:

COVID-19 and international borders: I returned from Australia to Rome, where locals can't believe our restrictions (https://www.traveller.com.au/covid19-and-international-borders-i-returned-from-australia-to-rome-where-locals-cant-believe-our-restrictions-h1xm1y)

Actual situation in Italy?

69 deaths yesterday, 54 the day before for a total of 128,579 deaths:

ROME: Italy reported 69 coronavirus-related deaths on Wednesday (Aug 18) against 54 the day before, the health ministry said, while the daily tally of new infections increased to 7,162 from 5,273.
Italy has registered 128,579 deaths linked to COVID-19 since its outbreak emerged in February last year, the second-highest toll in Europe after Britain and the eighth-highest in the world. The country has reported 4.46 million cases to date.

https://www.channelnewsasia.com/world/italy-reports-69-covid-19-deaths-wednesday-7162-new-cases-212143

I could go on, but won't. Israel will be a separate post.

[BradC]

The Mods are pre-empting this issue by locking the existing thread and opening Covid Mk ll.

And yet since it was "locked" there have been 2 additional posts. How does that work?

Good move anyway.

To keep on topic I don't have COVID and my second Pfizer jab is scheduled for Monday week. Bring on the double jab!

[Homestar]

And yet since it was "locked" there have been 2 additional posts. How does that work?

Good move anyway.

To keep on topic I don't have COVID and my second Pfizer jab is scheduled for Monday week. Bring on the double jab!

My bad - I didn’t notice the new thread and as a Mod I can hit the reply button on a closed thread - which I didn’t know until now - you learn something everyday huh? [emoji4]

I’ll delete them shortly as there was no intent to bypass this. The thread was closed before it crashed.

[NavyDiver]

Whew - kids from 12-15 news in Cons time frame and everyone 16- 40 from 30 August. My phones went nuts as soon as Chn 9 news broke to some then insane when ABC and others topped it off with the very welcome news. My assumptions are that you all get chemists for moderna, Vaccine hubs for Pfizer and AZ with GPs also adding to the Pfizer and AZ. I have over 1000 to jab in the next few weeks already if as my Doctors point out I am not bankrupt before then [biggrin]

P.I.P. ( Practice Incentive Payment) is a carrot and hook line to tow the government line. As I have asked for a deferral of Accreditation that slush fund will go [biggrin]

[vnx205]

thats because a covid lockdown doesnt work. on forums or real life [bigwhistle]

I look forward to reading your evidence that lockdowns don't work.

Increases in numbers of cases when significant numbers of people are flouting the rules don't constitute evidence that there is a problem with lockdowns. It is merely evidence of a lack of compliance.

Do you have evidence of situations where there was a high level of compliance, but no benefit?

[SBD4]

Reposting from closed thread:


those rapid tests are not approved for use in australia. dont ask me why.
TGA has approved RAT:
COVID-19 test kits included in the ARTG for legal supply in Australia | Therapeutic Goods Administration (TGA) (https://www.tga.gov.au/covid-19-test-kits-included-artg-legal-supply-australia)

NSW is already using them:
Rapid antigen testing | NSW Government (https://www.nsw.gov.au/covid-19/health-and-wellbeing/rapid-antigen-testing)

Federal Gov is trialling them in aged care homes:
Sydney providers can apply to join rapid antigen testing pilot - Australian Ageing Agenda (https://www.australianageingagenda.com.au/covid-19/sydney-providers-can-apply-to-join-rapid-antigen-testing-pilot/)

[Eevo]

Reposting from closed thread:


TGA has approved RAT:
COVID-19 test kits included in the ARTG for legal supply in Australia | Therapeutic Goods Administration (TGA) (https://www.tga.gov.au/covid-19-test-kits-included-artg-legal-supply-australia)

NSW is already using them:
Rapid antigen testing | NSW Government (https://www.nsw.gov.au/covid-19/health-and-wellbeing/rapid-antigen-testing)

Federal Gov is trialling them in aged care homes:
Sydney providers can apply to join rapid antigen testing pilot - Australian Ageing Agenda (https://www.australianageingagenda.com.au/covid-19/sydney-providers-can-apply-to-join-rapid-antigen-testing-pilot/)

yes, i made a mistake, its the home tests that are not approved.

[Eevo]

I look forward to reading your evidence that lockdowns don't work.

Increases in numbers of cases when significant numbers of people are flouting the rules don't constitute evidence that there is a problem with lockdowns. It is merely evidence of a lack of compliance.

Do you have evidence of situations where there was a high level of compliance, but no benefit?

simple. every country that was tried lockdown, still has covid in it.
people not following rules is realistic. im sorry that there are no idealistic countries.

[vnx205]

simple. every country that was tried lockdown, still has covid in it.
........

That is not evidence that they don't work.
The issue is not whether those countries still have covid, but rather how much covid they have.
If they have less covid, there has been a benefit.
Why do you assume that unless something is 100% effective that it doesn't work?
If it has reduced cases or slowed the increase, it has worked.
It doesn't have to make things perfect. It just has to make things better or stop things getting worse.

[Eevo]

That is not evidence that they don't work.
The issue is not whether those countries still have covid, but rather how much covid they have.
If they have less covid, there has been a benefit.
Why do you assume that unless something is 100% effective that it doesn't work?
If it has reduced cases or slowed the increase, it has worked.
It doesn't have to make things perfect. It just has to make things better or stop things getting worse.

is your goal elimination or reduction?


imho reduction isnt a worthwhile goal for the cost.

[Eevo]

It is merely evidence of a lack of compliance.
just to jump back to this, every country has non compliance with its law to some degree. with lockdowns i dont know if australian compliance is higher or lower than other countries. i dont think its relevant as there.

also, non compliance is not a major factor according to the deputy medical chief:


today the deputy chief health officer for NSW revealed that rule-breakers are only to blame for a tiny proportion of cases.


Dr Marianne Gale said the “vast majority” of the new cases being found in the state are not people doing the wrong thing at all.


She said the rising cases are merely a reflection of the fact that the virus is mostly spreading among young people and essential service workers — particularly in the hotspot suburbs of Sydney.

[windsock]

It could be the beginnings of a high school based outbreak (https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/300387036/covid19-students-at-two-separate-schools-in-auckand-have-tested-positive-for-virus) in Auckland similar to that which happened in Qld. Two high school kids, each from a different school, test positive.

An interesting article in The Conversation (https://theconversation.com/school-students-at-the-heart-of-a-covid-outbreak-change-the-story-of-how-it-spreads-165601) maps out how each age group have different behavior patterns and therefore different modes of spreading the virus between them.

[windsock]

I look forward to reading your evidence that lockdowns don't work.

Increases in numbers of cases when significant numbers of people are flouting the rules don't constitute evidence that there is a problem with lockdowns. It is merely evidence of a lack of compliance.

Do you have evidence of situations where there was a high level of compliance, but no benefit?

Or it could also be a certain softness to the rules. If many places that could be argued as non-essential are left to trade, there are more opportunities for spread while punters are undertaking 'legitimate' trading or business activity.

A comparison between NZ/Auckland, Melbourne, Sydney/NSW high level restrictions is quite interesting. NSW has by far the higher number of business types still allowed to trade. This means a higher number of people about than otherwise would be with a more limiting lockdown.

Melbourne and Auckland will be interesting to watch over the next week or two to see if the stricter lock downs have a quick or more perceptible downturn in numbers. At the moment, the Sydney numbers are escalating and if compliance to the rules are not the issue, could it be the rules themselves.

[350RRC]

There's been a heap of news articles recently about how the rest of the world is opening up, back to normal etc and the articles usually interview Aussie expats who are making snarky comments about us being locked down and borders closed.

For a bit of balance (and following on from 350RRC's now locked post):

USA

"Back to normal" article:

Life for Australians in Seattle, America's most vaccinated city, is getting back to normal (https://www.traveller.com.au/life-for-australians-in-seattle-americas-most-vaccinated-city-is-getting-back-to-normal-h1x6sw)

But deaths in Washington State are still averaging 10 a day, so it's a fairly deadly "normal".

https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/health/coronavirus-daily-news-updates-august-18-what-to-know-today-about-covid-19-in-the-seattle-area-washington-state-and-the-world-2/

ICUs in Alaska and Washington under stress:

https://www.seattletimes.com/seattle-news/northwest/covid-19-cases-stress-anchorage-intensive-care-units/

The US generally is still getting 700 deaths a day - which is +95% in the last month - for a total of 624,365 deaths:



Hospitalizations nationwide now exceed every previous peak except last winter’s. More than 700 deaths are being reported each day, on average, a figure that has more than doubled since the start of August. Deaths have so far remained far below past records, but can lag case data by weeks.

Covid in the U.S.: Latest Map and Case Count - The New York Times (https://www.nytimes.com/interactive/2021/us/covid-cases.html)

Italy

This article provoked a fair bit of anger:

COVID-19 and international borders: I returned from Australia to Rome, where locals can't believe our restrictions (https://www.traveller.com.au/covid19-and-international-borders-i-returned-from-australia-to-rome-where-locals-cant-believe-our-restrictions-h1xm1y)

Actual situation in Italy?

69 deaths yesterday, 54 the day before for a total of 128,579 deaths:

ROME: Italy reported 69 coronavirus-related deaths on Wednesday (Aug 18) against 54 the day before, the health ministry said, while the daily tally of new infections increased to 7,162 from 5,273.
Italy has registered 128,579 deaths linked to COVID-19 since its outbreak emerged in February last year, the second-highest toll in Europe after Britain and the eighth-highest in the world. The country has reported 4.46 million cases to date.

https://www.channelnewsasia.com/world/italy-reports-69-covid-19-deaths-wednesday-7162-new-cases-212143

I could go on, but won't. Israel will be a separate post.

The post Arapiles is mentioning is simple data that says a lot about the future for 'covid normal', the politicisation of vaccination and the far lower death rate per infection after a fair swag of the sensible ones have done it:

'158,000 new cases and 1,055 dead in the US yesterday, just for info.'

DL

[NavyDiver]

its odd people still do not understand

"The COVID-19 situation is changing rapidly. Since this disease is caused by a new virus, the vast majority of people do not yet have immunity to it. [B]Doctors and scientists are working to estimate the mortality rate of COVID-19, but at present, it is thought to be substantially higher (possibly 10 times or more) than that of most strains of the flu"


Hopkins data which is very balanced I think (https://www.hopkinsmedicine.org/health/conditions-and-diseases/coronavirus/coronavirus-disease-2019-vs-the-flu)

[ChookD2]

Most would translate that as "Trolling"

How is stimulating discussion trolling?? There were a number of replies to my posts that were thoughtful and structured, not just a simple "if their not vaccinated send 'em offshore in leaky boat" type of answer.

I don't think discussing where society is heading with this pandemic is trolling. But... each to their own.

[bob10]

From The Conversation, a well thought out opinion piece, which makes a lot of sense. From one well qualified to write it. What we need now is a balanced discussion, more than ever.


https://cdn.theconversation.com/avatars/202904/width170/image-20151104-25350-2eqrvu.jpgHassan Vally (https://theconversation.com/profiles/hassan-vally-202904)Associate Professor, La Trobe University


Disclosure statementHassan Vally does not work for, consult, own shares in or receive funding from any company or organisation that would benefit from this article, and has disclosed no relevant affiliations beyond their academic appointment.




Once 70-80% of us are fully vaccinated, the end will be in sight.





https://cdn.theconversation.com/avatars/1032493/thumb54/image-20200507-49546-1q64mfy.jpg
Liam Petterson
Deputy Editor, Health + Medicine






"The latest mantra is that we have to learn to live with the virus. Perhaps eventually that will be true. But ATM we have a very infectious virus circulating in a mostly non-immune population. Metaphorically, we are in a tinder dry bush on a hot summers day where one spark can lead to a raging bushfire. While this unstable dynamic exists, living with the virus isn't an option. The only option is to respond aggressively and eliminate the virus in order to enjoy some freedoms while we wait for the effect of vaccines to kick in. We keep seeing the benefits of going early & hard, and with the emergence of the delta variant , this seems to be more true than ever."


Should we give up on COVID-zero? Until most of us are vaccinated, we can't live with the virus (theconversation.com) (https://theconversation.com/should-we-give-up-on-covid-zero-until-most-of-us-are-vaccinated-we-cant-live-with-the-virus-166269?utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Latest%20from%20The%20Conversation%20 for%20August%2020%202021%20-%202036820034&utm_content=Latest%20from%20The%20Conversation%20f or%20August%2020%202021%20-%202036820034+CID_98bf029ed3e486adaad2a4e276a88747&utm_source=campaign_monitor&utm_term=Should%20we%20give%20up%20on%20COVID-zero%20Until%20most%20of%20us%20are%20vaccinated%2 0we%20cant%20live%20with%20the%20virus)

[Tote]

The article assumes that “Responding aggressively and eliminating the virus” is an option.
Perhaps it is in those states that are lucky enough through population density, demographics, lifestyle or whatever other factors are at play that has repeatedly allowed them to recover from outbreaks.
It certainly isn’t an option in Sydney where vaccination is the only viable solution, Melbourne is rapidly heading the same way with a three day lockdown extended to three weeks so far
Over 10,000 people are in isolation in the ACT and I’m dubious of their chances of doing much better, although they might just pull it off.
The best aggressive response is to get enough people vaccinated and finally it is starting to happen.

Regards
Tote

[Eevo]

another factor with lockdown, is what's considered essential. if half the population is still going to work because they are essential, it's not much of a lockdown.

a proper lockdown is marital law style. supermarkets and pharmacies open, nothing else.
none of this football, tv, takeaway, construction, retail. none of those are essential. if you can work from home great.


curfew from 7 til 7.
thats an aggressive response.

[trout1105]

The article assumes that “Responding aggressively and eliminating the virus” is an option.
Perhaps it is in those states that are lucky enough through population density, demographics, lifestyle or whatever other factors are at play that has repeatedly allowed them to recover from outbreaks.
It certainly isn’t an option in Sydney where vaccination is the only viable solution, Melbourne is rapidly heading the same way with a three day lockdown extended to three weeks so far
Over 10,000 people are in isolation in the ACT and I’m dubious of their chances of doing much better, although they might just pull it off.
The best aggressive response is to get enough people vaccinated and finally it is starting to happen.

Regards
Tote

"Luck" has SFA to do with the fact that the other States have had better results from their lockdowns, These results have been achieved through Better management than NSW's efforts of the various outbreaks.
I refer you to post #15 by Windsock and the fact that there is a very high Non compliance rate in NSW to lockdown rules, Population desity, demogaphics and lifestyle cannot be used as a "Scapegoat" for the NSW governments poor/slow respose to this latest lockdown and the continuing Non compliance by so many of its citizens.

[bob10]

The article assumes that “Responding aggressively and eliminating the virus” is an option.
Perhaps it is in those states that are lucky enough through population density, demographics, lifestyle or whatever other factors are at play that has repeatedly allowed them to recover from outbreaks.
It certainly isn’t an option in Sydney where vaccination is the only viable solution, Melbourne is rapidly heading the same way with a three day lockdown extended to three weeks so far
Over 10,000 people are in isolation in the ACT and I’m dubious of their chances of doing much better, although they might just pull it off.
The best aggressive response is to get enough people vaccinated and finally it is starting to happen.

Regards
Tote

I put it to you that where aggressive response has been initiated, with a clear and concise plan, with restrictions explained clearly to the whole population, this gives the best hope for reducing the virus to a level where it may be possible to live with it. The whole population has to buy into the plan, and it seems that this factor may be the reason some areas do better than others . I also believe population density is a large factor in controlling the virus, especially if you have to start with the handicap of waiting too long. As for people in isolation, it wasn't that long ago that we up here had over 12,000 in home quarantine. We now have less than 1,000 , I believe. Not one broke quarantine, and those with a member of the family testing positive, they started the 14 days isolation over again , and again, until no infections were recorded. So I have confidence the ACT will do the same. It can be done, and I believe it will be done.

[bob10]

Vaccine hesitancy in QLD is the second highest in Australia after South Australia, and the vaccination rate is the second lowest after Western Australia. The State Gov. has been criticised in recent months for mixed messages about the AZ vaccine , and for a lack of urgency in the early months of the roll out. The Premier Anna says one of the biggest lags is being lost in translation in multicultural communities, which has been an issue in Sydney and Melbourne.


To that end, QLD is beginning a multilingual ad blitz on social media, television , and radio, to help boost vaccine uptake among people who speak English as a second language. From inqld.com.au;


Lost in translation: Multicultural communities to be focus of vaccine campaign (inqld.com.au) (https://inqld.com.au/news/2021/08/19/lost-in-translation-multicultural-communities-to-be-focus-of-vaccine-campaign/)

[Tombie]

<snip>

a proper lockdown is marital law style.

<snip<

thats an aggressive response.

Nailed it [emoji41]

[Tote]

It’s very easy to sit in WA and Qld where the population has a different set of experiences, contributing to a bias of "we've beaten it, why can't the other states" to be critical of government responses. I agree with Eevo that a martial law shutdown would fix it but in NSW we have already had people dying of Covid at home because they were reluctant to seek medical help.
If we pursue that line all the country would stop functioning in 2 weeks. No fuel, no food, and a population in chaos
As for not locking down hard enough Victoria is the king of steel rings and they are clearly struggling with Delta.
Regards
Tote

[windsock]

Am getting ready for the long haul out of this over here in NZ.

Some early reports of positive tests in Wellington; though unconfirmed, would not be unexpected. Auckland is a hub-city where business travel, holidays, transit through to other centres has been allowed without restriction. Any hopes that this might be contained in Auckland must have been slim at best. No news yet of any cases in Coromandel.

Kind of figured on a lock down at some stage. Two weeks ago, I ordered a few spare parts for the old 110 and it looks likely I will now have time on my hands to drop the LT77 and LT230 gearboxes and replace those leaky seals, replace the clutch plate and redo all my suspension bushes...

Silver linings... [thumbsupbig]

[V8Ian]

Luck has a lot to do with it. During our recent lockdown I was legitimately out and about in Brisbane and Ipswich. Despite much publicity claiming that motorists would be stopped and have their legitimacy to be away from home scrutinised, I saw no vehicles intercepted. I noticed significant numbers of people incorrectly, or simply not wearing masks. Social distancing was largely ignored. One doctor's surgery I visited, didn't even have check in facilitation.
Last year I spent time in WA, travelling between Leeman, Perth and Bunbury, very few locals were observing the rules while interstate truck drivers had a high compliance rate.
The luck is whether the noncompliant sector is carrying the virus or not.

[windsock]

It’s very easy to sit in WA and Qld and pontificate on how those stares have been successful. I agree with Eevo that a martial law shutdown would fix it but in NSW we have already had people dying of Covid at home because they were reluctant to seek medical help.
If we persue that line all the country would stop functioning in 2 weeks. No fuel, no food, and a population in chaos
As for not locking down hard enough Victoria is the king of steel rings and they are clearly struggling with Delta.
Regards
Tote

The key term here is essential business vs non-essential business.

[bob10]

It’s very easy to sit in WA and Qld and pontificate on how those stares have been successful. I agree with Eevo that a martial law shutdown would fix it but in NSW we have already had people dying of Covid at home because they were reluctant to seek medical help.
If we persue that line all the country would stop functioning in 2 weeks. No fuel, no food, and a population in chaos
As for not locking down hard enough Victoria is the king of steel rings and they are clearly struggling with Delta.
Regards
Tote

Tote, can't we have a conversation without you getting personal.? Pontificate,? please. I know you mob are doing it tough down there, but have you thought that perhaps if you were to approach this with an open mind, we could have a much better discussion. Disagree by all means, but don't do it in such a way as to elicit an aggressive response . Let's try to have an adult conversation, I'm willing to try.

[Eevo]

Nailed it [emoji41]

damm autocorrect :soapbox:

Martial law

[DiscoMick]

It's certainly difficult, but it is possible.

In Victoria, a significant number of the daily figures is people being tested while in isolation, but they may have been positive before they were isolated, so they show as only having been in isolation for part of their infectious period.
In NSW, they waited a week before responding, so 1 case at Bondi spread across the city.
In other states, fast lockdowns have worked. Victoria suppressed Delta once, but then it spread from Sydney and started again.
SEQ is a big urban area, similar to Sydney or Melbourne, but a lockdown has beaten Delta. WA, SA, the NT and Tas have all shown zero Covid is possible.
The main danger now is stopping the NSW outbreak from seeding into other states and NZ. Qld says you can't enter Qld unless you've had at least one jab. Vax certificates from Medicare are accepted on phones.

On requiring vaccination certificates, I see the Big Red Bash and Mundi Mundi Bash will now require proof of full vaccination for anyone to step onto the site.
The organisers say this is to protect patrons at the festival and also to protect the residents of towns the patrons visit on their way to and from the festival.
I assume someone will try to do a Clive Palmer and challenge the 'no vax, no jive' rule, but the courts are likely to throw out the challenge on the basis event operators have a duty of care under workplace health and safety laws to protect the people on their properties.

Big Red Bash, Mundi Mundi Bash to require COVID-19 vaccination for 2022 events
Big Red Bash, Mundi Mundi Bash to require COVID-19 vaccination for 2022 events - ABC News (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-08-20/no-jab-no-jive-big-bash-outback-music-festivals-covid-vaccine/100389114)

[bob10]

Luck has a lot to do with it. During our recent lockdown I was legitimately out and about in Brisbane and Ipswich. Despite much publicity claiming that motorists would be stopped and have their legitimacy to be away from home scrutinised, I saw no vehicles intercepted. I noticed significant numbers of people incorrectly, or simply not wearing masks. Social distancing was largely ignored. One doctor's surgery I visited, didn't even have check in facilitation.
Last year I spent time in WA, travelling between Leeman, Perth and Bunbury, very few locals were observing the rules while interstate truck drivers had a high compliance rate.
The luck is whether the noncompliant sector is carrying the virus or not.

You've posted this before Ian. And my response is I have not noticed anything similar around our way. However thinking that our population would be complete angels is naive, I know. But the truth is the majority are compliant, and the police were scrutinising , just not where you were. The fact we had over 15,000 in home quarantine in the last outbreak with not one reported transgression shows a compliance to restrictions which is remarkable, really. Luck? probably. But some good management as well.

[Eevo]

some good news from the UK



A staggering 94.2% of adults in England have antibodies for covid-19, according to a new report from the UK’s Office of National Statistics. Roughly 80.7% of England’s population has been fully vaccinated, suggesting the rest of the 94.2% acquired antibodies through natural infection with the coronavirus.

[Saitch]

some good news from the UK



A staggering 94.2% of adults in England have antibodies for covid-19, according to a new report from the UK’s Office of National Statistics. Roughly 80.7% of England’s population has been fully vaccinated, suggesting the rest of the 94.2% acquired antibodies through natural infection with the coronavirus.

I like good news.

[Eevo]

I like good news.
now the bad news. aust wont be able to achieve that.

[Eevo]

Luck has a lot to do with it.
i agree. compare the recent SA lockdown with the current Vic lockdown.
both delta, both started with similar case load, both have similar rules. Vic might even have stricter rules.
Vic has a greater population density, which might be the key factor.

SA was done in a week. Vic now in week 3 and no improvement.

[Tote]

Tote, can't we have a conversation without you getting personal.? Pontificate,? please. I know you mob are doing it tough down there, but have you thought that perhaps if you were to approach this with an open mind, we could have a much better discussion. Disagree by all means, but don't do it in such a way as to elicit an aggressive response . Let's try to have an adult conversation, I'm willing to try.

Fixed, in the interests of a better discussion.

Regards,
Tote

[Arapiles]

some good news from the UK



A staggering 94.2% of adults in England have antibodies for covid-19, according to a new report from the UK’s Office of National Statistics. Roughly 80.7% of England’s population has been fully vaccinated, suggesting the rest of the 94.2% acquired antibodies through natural infection with the coronavirus.


And the bad news is that the UK's deaths from Covid were 113 yesterday.

[bob10]

From The New York Times Coronavirus update.;


In the US ,vaccines have been holding their ground when it comes to hospitalisations & deaths, but Federal officials worry that protection could wane, especially among high risk groups. The CDC released three studies on Wednesday that showed waning protection against infection, the decline could be the result of decreased vaccine potency, a drop in precautions like wearing masks, the rise of the highly contagious delta variant, or all three.

Together the new studies indicate that mRNA vaccines have an effectiveness of roughly 55% against infections, 80% against symptomatic infections , and 90% or higher against hospitalisations, noted Ellie Murray, an epidemiologist at Boston University. The Biden administration has said it wants vaccinated people to get booster shots, starting on Sep. 20. contingent on authorisation from the CDC

People who have had a full course of the Pfizer-BioNTech and Moderna vaccines will be eligible 8 months after their second dose. It is not yet known whether Johnson & Johnson vaccine recipients will require a booster, more testing is required.

[Tote]

Some interesting stats regarding population density. The whole thesis is available at https://apo.org.au/sites/default/files/resource-files/2015-12/apo-nid63334.pdf.
172987

There was an article the other day where 70% of spread in Sydney is within family groups, its easy to blame that on people visiting against regulations but I can't imagine how a family of 5 living in a 3 bedroom unit could possibly not get Delta if one family member was a nurse, a bus driver or any other essential worker and brought it home.
NSW COVID: 70 per cent of Sydney cases from household transmissions (https://www.smh.com.au/politics/nsw/household-transmissions-account-for-70-per-cent-of-sydney-s-covid-cases-20210817-p58ji7.html)

The media focusses on the breaches and I'm sure there is some level of non compliance but I fear that the transmission in densly populated areas is probably no more controllable than is currently being achieved.

Regards,
Tote

[Eevo]

And the bad news is that the UK's deaths from Covid were 113 yesterday.
drop in the ocean.

something that's not been discussed much is how the covid recession is worse than the global financial crisis.

[windsock]

drop in the ocean.

something that's not been discussed much is how the covid recession is worse than the global financial crisis.

What covid recession? NZ economy is booming, and the Reserve bank delayed raising the OCR yesterday due to the latest outbreak. Building boom happening. Situations vacant ads at high levels. NZ unemployment at the lowest level in many years, at 4%. Admittedly, it is at the end of a quantitative easing program but it is the economy. The hang-over is going to be a lu-lu though.

[V8Ian]

Tote, can't we have a conversation without you getting personal.? Pontificate,? please. I know you mob are doing it tough down there, but have you thought that perhaps if you were to approach this with an open mind, we could have a much better discussion. Disagree by all means, but don't do it in such a way as to elicit an aggressive response . Let's try to have an adult conversation, I'm willing to try.
I think your reading too much into Tote's post, Bob. I didn't think it pompous, or parochial.

[V8Ian]

You've posted this before Ian. And my response is I have not noticed anything similar around our way. However thinking that our population would be complete angels is naive, I know. But the truth is the majority are compliant, and the police were scrutinising , just not where you were. The fact we had over 15,000 in home quarantine in the last outbreak with not one reported transgression shows a compliance to restrictions which is remarkable, really. Luck? probably. But some good management as well.
Geography and demographics probably come into play, Bob. Your area has a more mature and sensibly compliant population whereas out here there are more young, aggressive, 'don't tell me what to do' types; simply look at the driving styles.
The lack of infringements issued merely indicates the sketchy and sparse policing. How many vehicles do you see with illegally fitted and converted lights, compared to prosecution for such?

[BradC]

drop in the ocean.

Unless one of them, is your mother or daughter.

Easy to say “oh well, people are going to die so just let it loose”. Your kid is immunocompromised and can’t be vaccinated? “Sorry mate, you have to die. It’s nothing personal though, but the economy is more important”.

[Eevo]

Unless one of them, is your mother or daughter.

Easy to say “oh well, people are going to die so just let it loose”. Your kid is immunocompromised and can’t be vaccinated? “Sorry mate, you have to die. It’s nothing personal though, but the economy is more important”.

iedit:
vic has 55 new cases today
i dont let it personal. bad for decision making.

[windsock]

There are 11 new community cases of COVID-19 in NZ today.


Of these new cases, eight are in Auckland and three are in Wellington.

The three in Wellington had been to an Auckland location of interest recently.

A press conference is scheduled for 3pm NZST where news of lock down extension will be given. Extension is now certain really with the outbreak now gone beyond Auckland. It may be that the govt does a regional lock down surrounding Wellington and lets the rest of us go down a level, but I think that as they say lessons have been learned from NSW they will likely extend the nation-wide Level 4 for a period into next week.

Looks like I have quality land rover maintenance time ahead... [thumbsupbig]

[windsock]

The NZ Ministry of Health news release.

11 additional community cases; 2 new cases in managed isolation facilities | Ministry of Health NZ (https://www.health.govt.nz/news-media/media-releases/11-additional-community-cases-2-new-cases-managed-isolation-facilities)

[bob10]

Geography and demographics probably come into play, Bob. Your area has a more mature and sensibly compliant population whereas out here there are more young, aggressive, 'don't tell me what to do' types; simply look at the driving styles.
The lack of infringements issued merely indicates the sketchy and sparse policing. How many vehicles do you see with illegally fitted and converted lights, compared to prosecution for such?

I agree. Here the population demographics come in waves, we get young families, the kids grow into teenagers, we have all the issues that go with that. They grow up, move out or marry, their kids become teenagers, etc etc . ATM most of the young ones here are young teens too young to drive. Our next wave of recalcitrant teens is coming I guess. That's life.

[bob10]

I think your reading too much into Tote's post, Bob. I didn't think it pompous, or parochial.

Perhaps I am, but I have a long history of TOTES posts, and I know he doesn't mind a little niggle , now & then. I suppose that's pot & kettle. But I will not let myself get a rap over the knuckles for responding to one of his niggles any more.[wink11]

[Tombie]

Unless one of them, is your mother or daughter.

Easy to say “oh well, people are going to die so just let it loose”. Your kid is immunocompromised and can’t be vaccinated? “Sorry mate, you have to die. It’s nothing personal though, but the economy is more important”.

Agree the personal factor will always influence in some manner.

Unfortunately without an economy though - vastly greater numbers will die. Just for different reasons, and reported differently.

A wayward example is transport.
We accept that people will die on our roads, we certainly don’t like it when it hits close to home.

[vnx205]

.... ......
If we pursue that line all the country would stop functioning in 2 weeks. No fuel, no food, no toilet paper and a population in chaos
... .......
Regards
Tote

How could you have forgotten the most important item on the supermarket shelves?

[DiscoMick]

The worrying figure I saw today was there are over 700 children with Covid in NSW.

Anyway, this is too depressing. We're going camping, cause we're in Qld, so we can.

[Eevo]

in the news

The effectiveness of the Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine against Covid-19 declines faster than that of the AstraZeneca jab, according to a new study published on Thursday.“Two doses of Pfizer-BioNTech have greater initial effectiveness against new COVID-19 infections, but this declines faster compared with two doses of Oxford-AstraZeneca,” researchers at Oxford University said.

The study, which has not been peer reviewed, is based on the results of a survey by Britain’s Office for National Statistics that carried out PCR tests from December last year to this month on randomly selected households.

[Homestar]

in the news

Not unexpected I wouldn’t have thought - they’ve been saying an annual booster may be required for some time. By the time we get everyone done, we can just start again!!! [emoji56][emoji16]

[bob10]

Not unexpected I wouldn’t have thought - they’ve been saying an annual booster may be required for some time. By the time we get everyone done, we can just start again!!! [emoji56][emoji16]

An annual COVID/ flu jab is on the drawing board. Moderna, I think is testing it.

[Tombie]

They better keep them seperate.

I will not take the flu jab. Has never had a good result for me each time I had it.

[bob10]

Some interesting stats regarding population density. The whole thesis is available at https://apo.org.au/sites/default/files/resource-files/2015-12/apo-nid63334.pdf.
172987

There was an article the other day where 70% of spread in Sydney is within family groups, its easy to blame that on people visiting against regulations but I can't imagine how a family of 5 living in a 3 bedroom unit could possibly not get Delta if one family member was a nurse, a bus driver or any other essential worker and brought it home.
NSW COVID: 70 per cent of Sydney cases from household transmissions (https://www.smh.com.au/politics/nsw/household-transmissions-account-for-70-per-cent-of-sydney-s-covid-cases-20210817-p58ji7.html)

The media focusses on the breaches and I'm sure there is some level of non compliance but I fear that the transmission in densly populated areas is probably no more controllable than is currently being achieved.

Regards,
Tote

Yes, look at India, England and parts of Europe. Population density definitely determines the outcome somewhat. That's why a sharp hard lock down can help. But not if the population has to keep moving in order to keep working.

[V8Ian]

If we pursue that line all the country would stop functioning in 2 weeks. No fuel, no food, and a population in chaos

Tote
It would have ground to a halt by the end of the first week. Three days is the generally accepted timeframe, within the transport industry.

[Saitch]

It would have ground to a halt by the end of the first week. Three days is the generally accepted timeframe, within the transport industry.

As long as the Coopers brewery can 'Export' to Queensland, I'm covered.:twobeers:

[DiscoMick]

Not unexpected I wouldn’t have thought - they’ve been saying an annual booster may be required for some time. By the time we get everyone done, we can just start again!!! [emoji56][emoji16]The USA is talking about a booster for those already vaxed. Didn't Morrison do a deal for a booster here early next year?

[Eevo]

They better keep them seperate.

I will not take the flu jab. Has never had a good result for me each time I had it.

i understand this. everytime i get the flu jab, 2 days off sick.
covid jab was the same.
i dont have time for that.

[V8Ian]

As long as the Coopers brewery can 'Export' to Queensland, I'm covered.:twobeers:
If transport stops, you won't even get XXXX....







.....is that Pedro imitating a spider on the wall?[wink11]

[Tombie]

If transport stops, you won't even get XXXX....







.....is that Pedro imitating a spider on the wall?[wink11]

That’s not a bad thing. That **** should be quarantined.

[NavyDiver]

some good news from the UK



A staggering 94.2% of adults in England have antibodies for covid-19, according to a new report from the UK’s Office of National Statistics. Roughly 80.7% of England’s population has been fully vaccinated, suggesting the rest of the 94.2% acquired antibodies through natural infection with the coronavirus.
Yep My best mate (Navytype ) now doesn't call me and seem to be brain impaired according to his wife and kids. He as UK acquired antibodies as well as brain inflammation from it they think. Dont bother looking at that medical report as you might assume it is scare mongering [bigrolf]


156 vaccines done and dusted. 90 AZ and 66 fizers[thumbsupbig] Pharmacist suggest he will be modernering before September[thumbsupbig]

Told and sort of anti vaxxer wasting all our time she could leave and I would book her again in October- She stopped for the vaccine - the waiting room was fun with that one [biggrin][biggrin][biggrin][biggrin][biggrin]


Some very good friends and a lot more now a lot safer with 2nd jabs accepted the fizer risk of mild but not nice side effects ( about 53%)

48 dose would expire[wink11] Managed to pay overtime to staff to do a Saturday session tomorrow and in three week $$$$$ out and the 48 places in September I created are filling fast with brave and I think sensible 16-40 year olds.

6am start today and as we jabbed my usual Saturday staff today I am back at 6 am again for a Double effort of Vaccine and Doctor which is a usual quiet one Doctor Saturday on steroids plus. Happy we are only 99% willing victims for vaccines [biggrin] The anti whinging ****** can **** off. I have joyfully recorded hundreds of conspiracy bull dust to publish it all. It is almost all the same ****e again and again so alas it will not be a book or film [bigrolf]

[Tote]

Yep My best mate (Navytype ) now doesn't call me and seem to be brain impaired according to his wife and kids. He as UK acquired antibodies as well as brain inflammation from it they think. Dont bother looking at that medical report as you might assume it is scare mongering [bigrolf]


156 vaccines done and dusted. 90 AZ and 66 fizers[thumbsupbig] Pharmacist suggest he will be modernering before September[thumbsupbig]

Told and sort of anti vaxxer wasting all our time she could leave and I would book her again in October- She stopped for the vaccine - the waiting room was fun with that one [biggrin][biggrin][biggrin][biggrin][biggrin]


Some very good friends and a lot more now a lot safer with 2nd jabs accepted the fizer risk of mild but not nice side effects ( about 53%)

48 dose would expire[wink11] Managed to pay overtime to staff to do a Saturday session tomorrow and in three week $$$$$ out and the 48 places in September I created are filling fast with brave and I think sensible 16-40 year olds.

6am start today and as we jabbed my usual Saturday staff today I am back at 6 am again for a Double effort of Vaccine and Doctor which is a usual quiet one Doctor Saturday on steroids plus. Happy we are only 99% willing victims for vaccines [biggrin] The anti whinging ****** can **** off. I have joyfully recorded hundreds of conspiracy bull dust to publish it all. It is almost all the same ****e again and again so alas it will not be a book or film [bigrolf]

Keep up the good work, and so sorry to hear about your mate.
Stay safe,
Tote

[windsock]

So, 1000 people walk into a bar... the first person says, give me a lock down wallbanger son...

:whistling:

A bar worker for a catering firm that caters to conferences and gala nights worked while infectious at Spark Arena in Auckland last week.

Thursday 12 Aug: The first night he worked was a Mitre10 Awards night and around 1000 people from all parts of the country attended.

Friday 13 :glare: Aug: The second night he worked, it was a Bayleys Real Estate Conference and again 1000 people were estimated to be there. This time a majority are said to be Aucklanders but there were also a fair smattering from other parts of the country.

All of the above are considered close contacts of the bar worker and have been ordered to self isolate and get tested. There will be some interesting numbers from across the country if we have been unlucky. Given our lock down started 4 and 3 days after these events, it might have been a very timely lock down indeed and with any luck at all, those testing positive will have been self-isolating at home.

Last night the lock down for the rest of NZ (excluding Auckland and Coromandel) was extended till Wednesday next week, the same as the Auckland and Coromandel lock down. Pretty much inevitable that the lock down over all the country will certainly be extended and we are in for a few months of changes at one level or another.

[windsock]

A grocery chain over here is called New World owned by a group called Foodstuffs.

They have online shopping and I did this on Thursday, and I have now seen first hand, the New World Order... :Thump:

I placed my order no problems on Thursday. The soonest delivery time is next monday...

It allows you to edit or add items and I tried to do so just now. You know you are in the midst of a lock down when online grocery websites have a virtual queue. I cannot get on to add stuff...

[Tote]

Sydney has an idiot that tested positive and did a runner NSW COVID: Sydney man Anthony Karam tested positive, failed to isolate (https://www.smh.com.au/national/nsw/hunt-for-sydney-man-who-tested-positive-to-covid-19-failed-to-isolate-20210821-p58koj.html)

Canberra Had 10,000 in isolation last time I heard

Regards,
Tote

[sashadidi]

Reposting this piece again re aerosol particle transmisson as a guide on how it can spread Covid and other diseases around and how it might be revelant and helpful to the situation we find ourselves especially in our daily interactions......
and lots of other stuff how science made a mistake and is ever evolving




The 60-Year-Old Scientific Screwup That Helped Covid Kill | WIRED (https://www.wired.com/story/the-teeny-tiny-scientific-screwup-that-helped-covid-kill/)

[bemm52]

i understand this. everytime i get the flu jab, 2 days off sick.
covid jab was the same.
i dont have time for that.

My wife and I had similar experiences with our AZ shot. I questioned my brother-in-law who is in the medical game about this having some concern
His reply was don’t stress about it, if your body reacts to the vaccine it’s a sign that your immune system is up to scratch and doing what it has evolved too do

Cheers Paul

[DiscoMick]

Yep my doctor said the same. A mild reaction proves it's working.

I can't see how we can open up at 70-80% of eligible adults vaxed if children remain unprotected and there are hundreds of cases. There would be a pandemic of unaccinated children. What parent would risk that?

Vaccination rate of 70% won’t end lockdowns if Covid case numbers are too high, Doherty Institute expert says | Australia news | The Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2021/aug/21/vaccination-rate-of-70-wont-end-lockdowns-if-covid-case-numbers-are-too-high-doherty-institute-expert-says?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other)

[Arapiles]

The USA is talking about a booster for those already vaxed. Didn't Morrison do a deal for a booster here early next year?

Yes, he did - 85 million doses.

Australia secures additional Pfizer-BioNTech vaccine for 2022 and 2023 | Prime Minister of Australia (https://www.pm.gov.au/media/australia-secures-additional-pfizer-biontech-vaccine-2022-and-2023)


(Again, I note that they used the phrase "a .... shot in the arm" without any apparent irony .... )

[Arapiles]

Israel was one of the first countries to fully vaccinate its eligible citizens - it spent billions buying Pfizer - and then proceeded to re-open.

Having re-opened they're now having a surge in Delta, with 7,500 cases per day.

This excellent article explains why:

Highly Vaccinated Israel Is Seeing A Dramatic Surge In New Cases : Goats and Soda : NPR (https://www.npr.org/sections/goatsandsoda/2021/08/20/1029628471/highly-vaccinated-israel-is-seeing-a-dramatic-surge-in-new-covid-cases-heres-why?utm_campaign=storyshare&utm_source=twitter.com&utm_medium=social)

Note the 5th lesson:

"5. Vaccinations are key, but they are not enough.

Israel is trying to slow the wave without resorting to a new lockdown, which Prime Minister Naftali Bennett says would take an economic toll and "destroy the future of the country." The country is placing caps on gatherings, increasing hospital staff and pleading for unvaccinated people to get immunized."


Also, Israel has a much higher vaccination rate than Australia is aiming for and it still hasn't helped - because of people who were eligible to be vaccinated but chose not to be:

4. Israel's high vaccination rate isn't high enough.

The country jumped out ahead of all other countries on vaccines, and 78% of eligible Israelis over 12 years old are vaccinated.
But Israel has a young population, with many under the eligible age for vaccination, and about 1.1 million eligible Israelis, largely between the ages of 12 and 20, have declined to take even one dose of the vaccine.
That means only 58% of Israel's total citizenry is fully vaccinated. Experts say that's not nearly high enough.
"We have a very large fraction of our population who are paying the price for a small fraction of the population who did not go to get the vaccine," said Eran Segal (https://twitter.com/segal_eran) of the Weizmann Institute of Science, who advises the Israeli government on COVID-19.
Unvaccinated people helped fuel the rapid spread of the virus while the country remained open for business in recent months with few serious restrictions.
"That will lead to mass infection, which is exactly what we are seeing now," said Segal.

[cuppabillytea]

My test results came back: NEGATIVE, yesterday afternoon. Back to work Monday.[thumbsupbig][bigsad]

[bob10]

Yep my doctor said the same. A mild reaction proves it's working.

I can't see how we can open up at 70-80% of eligible adults vaxed if children remain unprotected and there are hundreds of cases. There would be a pandemic of unaccinated children. What parent would risk that?

Vaccination rate of 70% won’t end lockdowns if Covid case numbers are too high, Doherty Institute expert says | Australia news | The Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2021/aug/21/vaccination-rate-of-70-wont-end-lockdowns-if-covid-case-numbers-are-too-high-doherty-institute-expert-says?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other)
It would have to be 80% of the population , children included, don't forget, vaccinations may keep you out of hospital, but you can still get Covid, and long Covid.

[vnx205]

Yep my doctor said the same. A mild reaction proves it's working.
.... .....


I hope that doesn't mean that no reaction at all, not even a sore arm, isn't proof that the immune system isn't working.

[trout1105]

Second AZ jab today, No dramas[thumbsupbig]

[Roverlord off road spares]

I hope that doesn't mean that no reaction at all, not even a sore arm, isn't proof that the immune system isn't working.
Yep, had both AZs and no reaction, makes one wonder if we were given a placebo. lol

[V8Ian]

Well if you were, Mario, you wont catch hypochondria. [bigrolf]

[JDNSW]

Yep my doctor said the same. A mild reaction proves it's working.

I can't see how we can open up at 70-80% of eligible adults vaxed if children remain unprotected and there are hundreds of cases. There would be a pandemic of unaccinated children. What parent would risk that?

Vaccination rate of 70% won’t end lockdowns if Covid case numbers are too high, Doherty Institute expert says | Australia news | The Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/australia-news/2021/aug/21/vaccination-rate-of-70-wont-end-lockdowns-if-covid-case-numbers-are-too-high-doherty-institute-expert-says?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other)

Fairly simple calculations show that given the published data on the delta strain and the vaccine efficacy, to stop spread using only vaccination requires more than 80% vaccination of the whole population including kids.

If you have less than this, you need additional measures to reduce the overall effective infection rate. If you start with only a few cases, you can probably manage with just "test and trace", but if the number of cases is large, this is too slow and other methods must be used. Depending on how close you are to 80+%, this might be a few simple restrictions, perhaps requiring proof of vaccination for some situations, and continuing some infection control measures, but if the numbers overwhelm the "test and trace" capabilities, lockdowns remain the only way to allow them to catch up. And in all cases isolation as soon as diagnosed is an essential part of the mix (same as when I was growing up for a number of diseases.

[350RRC]

Fairly simple calculations show that given the published data on the delta strain and the vaccine efficacy, to stop spread using only vaccination requires more than 80% vaccination of the whole population including kids.

If you have less than this, you need additional measures to reduce the overall effective infection rate. If you start with only a few cases, you can probably manage with just "test and trace", but if the number of cases is large, this is too slow and other methods must be used. Depending on how close you are to 80+%, this might be a few simple restrictions, perhaps requiring proof of vaccination for some situations, and continuing some infection control measures, but if the numbers overwhelm the "test and trace" capabilities, lockdowns remain the only way to allow them to catch up. And in all cases isolation as soon as diagnosed is an essential part of the mix (same as when I was growing up for a number of diseases.

I mentioned the 80% concept awhile ago.

The 80% is blurred (eligible vs. total) by the pollies so it's great to see a few people have the real target in mind and are prepared to reinforce it, lest we end up thinking there's been a job well done that is only half baked.

DL

[Eevo]

I mentioned the 80% concept awhile ago.

The 80% is blurred (eligible vs. total) by the pollies so it's great to see a few people have the real target in mind and are prepared to reinforce it, lest we end up thinking there's been a job well done that is only half baked.

DL

yes and im disappointed the chief medical office has not called this out or corrected the premier.

80% of eligible is about 50% of total, which is insufficent.

[ozscott]

Just watched the so called anti lockdown protests on ABC in Melbourne. Disgusting.

[Grumbles]

Oz population is some 25 million. So talk of a target of 70% being vaccinated will leave 7 million plus unprotected and vulnerable to catching Covid. That is a sobering thought.

[bob10]

From the New York Times;



As incredible as it sounds, the US FDA has not yet given full approval for the COVID Pfizer vaccine. The FDA is pushing to give full approval Monday, there being still a substantial amount of paperwork , and negotiation with the company. The approval is expected to pave the way for a series of vaccination requirements by public and private organisations who were waiting final regulatory action before implementing mandates. Federal and State Health Officials are hoping that an approved vaccine will draw interest from some Americans who have been hesitant to take one that has only been authorised for emergency use.

Some Universities and Hospitals are expected to mandate inoculation once a vaccine has been approved. The Pentagon has said it will make vaccinations mandatory once approval has been given. Once it gains approval, Pfizer -BioNTech is planning to ask the FDA to approve a third shot as a booster shot. The Biden administration announced that fully vaccinated adults should prepare to get booster shots eight months after they get their second doses. Pfizer is expected to finish submitting data that it says a third dose is safe and effective, next week.

[superquag]

Just for a slight change...and some balance.

Back in 2017, we had a nasty 'Flu year, over 220,000 notified infections and 1,250 or so DEATHS. from FLU... Proved. No argument... And all ages, babies, kids, teens,.... Seniors. Previously healthy or not.

Anyone remember the sheer panic, lock-downs, (suicides & DV ) social distancing, interstate borders shut down and industries and jobs trashed ?

Neither do I.

Not also in 2019. when over 300,000 tested positive... and 800+ expired.

But 2020 was great for Flu, only 21,000 got sick, and less than....... 40 died.

This year, I think it's around 400 lab-tested Flu..... and no notified C of D. Yet.

3303.0 - Causes of Death, Australia, 2017 (https://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/Lookup/by%20Subject/3303.0~2017~Main%20Features~Deaths%20due%20to%20in fluenza~5)

[V8Ian]

You need to compare apples to apples SQ. Covid 19 is not just another flu.​

[SBD4]

Population Under 16yo represents approximately 20% of total.

80% vaccination of eligible population represents 64% of total population.

To reach 70% vaccination of overall population, 87.5% eligible population needs to be vaccinated.

It's not going to be easy.

If they can move forward with the approval for the use of COVID vaccines in children, we'll have a better chance meeting the numbers.

[JDNSW]

Just for a slight change...and some balance.

Back in 2017, we had a nasty 'Flu year, over 220,000 notified infections and 1,250 or so DEATHS. from FLU... Proved. No argument... And all ages, babies, kids, teens,.... Seniors. Previously healthy or not.

Anyone remember the sheer panic, lock-downs, (suicides & DV ) social distancing, interstate borders shut down and industries and jobs trashed ?

Neither do I.

Not also in 2019. when over 300,000 tested positive... and 800+ expired.

But 2020 was great for Flu, only 21,000 got sick, and less than....... 40 died.

This year, I think it's around 400 lab-tested Flu..... and no notified C of D. Yet.

3303.0 - Causes of Death, Australia, 2017 (https://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/Lookup/by%20Subject/3303.0~2017~Main%20Features~Deaths%20due%20to%20in fluenza~5)

And for a little more balance - the flu cases are way down because the action taken to try and contain covid are even more effective for flu!

Another point - Australia has managed to keep the number of cases of covid down to under 50,000 and deaths to under a thousand because lockdowns, border restriction etc were used. A comparison of where we could be without these restrictions, consider Texas, with about the same population as here. To date they have had nearly 3.5million cases, 55,000 deaths, and are currently running at around 22,000 new cases and 200 deaths per day, both numbers increasing. This gives a good picture of where we could be without lockdowns etc.

Covid-19 is far more infectious than is influenza, (around five times for delta) and has a case fatality rate about ten times higher.

[ozscott]

Just for a slight change...and some balance.

Back in 2017, we had a nasty 'Flu year, over 220,000 notified infections and 1,250 or so DEATHS. from FLU... Proved. No argument... And all ages, babies, kids, teens,.... Seniors. Previously healthy or not.

Anyone remember the sheer panic, lock-downs, (suicides & DV ) social distancing, interstate borders shut down and industries and jobs trashed ?

Neither do I.

Not also in 2019. when over 300,000 tested positive... and 800+ expired.

But 2020 was great for Flu, only 21,000 got sick, and less than....... 40 died.

This year, I think it's around 400 lab-tested Flu..... and no notified C of D. Yet.

3303.0 - Causes of Death, Australia, 2017 (https://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/Lookup/by%20Subject/3303.0~2017~Main%20Features~Deaths%20due%20to%20in fluenza~5)You are not actually bringing balance unfortunately. Cheers

[Arapiles]

Oz population is some 25 million. So talk of a target of 70% being vaccinated will leave 7 million plus unprotected and vulnerable to catching Covid. That is a sobering thought.


That's the issue in Israel - 80% of eligible population leaves several million who are ineligible (as under 12 years old) plus vaccine refusers means that they actually have only 58% of entire population vaccinated.

[Arapiles]

Just for a slight change...and some balance.

Back in 2017, we had a nasty 'Flu year, over 220,000 notified infections and 1,250 or so DEATHS. from FLU... Proved. No argument... And all ages, babies, kids, teens,.... Seniors. Previously healthy or not.

Anyone remember the sheer panic, lock-downs, (suicides & DV ) social distancing, interstate borders shut down and industries and jobs trashed ?

Neither do I.

Not also in 2019. when over 300,000 tested positive... and 800+ expired.

But 2020 was great for Flu, only 21,000 got sick, and less than....... 40 died.

This year, I think it's around 400 lab-tested Flu..... and no notified C of D. Yet.

3303.0 - Causes of Death, Australia, 2017 (https://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/Lookup/by%20Subject/3303.0~2017~Main%20Features~Deaths%20due%20to%20in fluenza~5)


The issue is that Covid is about 10 times more lethal than influenza - so at the same number of infections that wouldn't be 1,250 deaths, it'd be 12,500.

[Eevo]

That's the issue in Israel - 80% of eligible population leaves several million who are ineligible (as under 12 years old) plus vaccine refusers means that they actually have only 58% of entire population vaccinated.

i suspect, this is going to be the norm, and if boosters are required, the percentage is going to be less.

[JDNSW]

You may be right, but I am at a complete loss to know why it is that in a country that routinely manages to achieve about 95% vaccination rates for a number of other diseases, we want to be satisfied with around 60% for a disease that is at least as dangerous and probably more so?

[vnx205]

Just for a slight change...and some balance.

Back in 2017, we had a nasty 'Flu year, over 220,000 notified infections and 1,250 or so DEATHS. from FLU... Proved. No argument... And all ages, babies, kids, teens,.... Seniors. Previously healthy or not.

Anyone remember the sheer panic, lock-downs, (suicides & DV ) social distancing, interstate borders shut down and industries and jobs trashed ?

Neither do I.

Not also in 2019. when over 300,000 tested positive... and 800+ expired.

But 2020 was great for Flu, only 21,000 got sick, and less than....... 40 died.

This year, I think it's around 400 lab-tested Flu..... and no notified C of D. Yet.

3303.0 - Causes of Death, Australia, 2017 (https://www.abs.gov.au/ausstats/abs@.nsf/Lookup/by%20Subject/3303.0~2017~Main%20Features~Deaths%20due%20to%20in fluenza~5)


Of all your attempts to downplay the seriousness of COVID-19, this one is the clearest demonstration that either, you simply don't understand the situation and will post anything that you think supports your beliefs or that you are deliberately spreading misinformation.

It is ludicrous to think that it is valid to compare the number of deaths from the flu in 2017 with the number of deaths from COVID-19. In 2017 there were no lockdowns, no contact tracing, no masks, no social distancing, no border closures, and no public health messages about limiting the spread of the virus.

Why is it so hard for some people to understand that the reason our deaths from COVID are relatively low is because we implemented prevention measures? If you want a more valid comparison then compare the 2017 flu deaths with places that imposed restrictions closer to what was in place in 2017.

One example would be Florida; similar population to Australia and almost 42,000 deaths.

Another would be South Dakota; 2,325 deaths per million compared with 38 per million in Australia.

If we were handling COVID the same way we handled the flu in 2017, there are good reasons to think that Australia could have had somewhere between 42,000 and 58,000 deaths.

Don't you think it is time you stopped spreading misinformation? It is clear you either don't understand or that you are deliberately spreading lies.

[Tote]

You may be right, but I am at a complete loss to know why it is that in a country that routinely manages to achieve about 95% vaccination rates for a number of other diseases, we want to be satisfied with around 60% for a disease that is at least as dangerous and probably more so?

Probably because of the cautious and risk averse nature of the medical industry and that the consistent line that prior to Delta children weren’t impacted by Covid.
Common vaccines that are administered to children target childhood diseases, hopefully the necessary research and approvals will start to be done soon

Regards
Tote

[350RRC]

Probably because of the cautious and risk averse nature of the medical industry and that the consistent line that prior to Delta children weren’t impacted by Covid.
Common vaccines that are administered to children target childhood diseases, hopefully the necessary research and approvals will start to be done soon

Regards
Tote

I think vaccine hesitancy is more an artefact of social media.

Anyone discussion about adverse effects will link to others of a similar ilk. There is no balanced discussion once someone embarks on a path.

DL

[DiscoMick]

Flu vaccination rates also should be considered. We generally aim for at least 80% flu vaxing of the total population, including children, who get the flu vax at school. Most serious flu cases then happen among those not flu vaxed.
We are nowhere near that level with the Covid vax. Even 80% of those eligible for Covid vax would only be about 65% of total population.
Covid is far more infectious and deadly than the flu, so even if we get to 80% total population vaxed, Covid will spread among the other 20%.
State borders will have to stay up for a long time, maybe well into next year.
Also, Covid will still be spreading outside Australia, so the threat will remain. This is sadly far from over.

[JDNSW]

Probably because of the cautious and risk averse nature of the medical industry and that the consistent line that prior to Delta children weren’t impacted by Covid.
Common vaccines that are administered to children target childhood diseases, hopefully the necessary research and approvals will start to be done soon

Regards
Tote

I can't agree. I do not think the medical industry is responsible, I think it is basically the fault of the poor state of science education in this country over many years, and the scientific illiteracy of the vast majority of both state and federal politicians, backed by the "short termism" of their financial advisers, staffed by MBAs, together with the lack of leadership shown by politicians of all ilks who are not prepared, even in a crisis, to put their sworn duty ahead of their perceived re-election prospects.

It isn't about children, - even if you exclude them is there any reason why we should not aim for a vaccination rate that is comparable to what we have achieved for childhood illnesses? And since we have effectively made these mandatory for children and also made various vaccinations mandatory for some circumstances, including for entry into Australia from some locations (and have done so for over a hundred years), why on earth is it not extended to the current crisis?

[ozscott]

Of all your attempts to downplay the seriousness of COVID-19, this one is the clearest demonstration that either, you simply don't understand the situation and will post anything that you think supports your beliefs or that you are deliberately spreading misinformation.

It is ludicrous to think that it is valid to compare the number of deaths from the flu in 2017 with the number of deaths from COVID-19. In 2017 there were no lockdowns, no contact tracing, no masks, no social distancing, no border closures, and no public health messages about limiting the spread of the virus.

Why is it so hard for some people to understand that the reason our deaths from COVID are relatively low is because we implemented prevention measures? If you want a more valid comparison then compare the 2017 flu deaths with places that imposed restrictions closer to what was in place in 2017.

One example would be Florida; similar population to Australia and almost 42,000 deaths.

Another would be South Dakota; 2,325 deaths per million compared with 38 per million in Australia.

If we were handling COVID the same way we handled the flu in 2017, there are good reasons to think that Australia could have had somewhere between 42,000 and 58,000 deaths.

Don't you think it is time you stopped spreading misinformation? It is clear you either don't understand or that you are deliberately spreading lies.The only people who are of the opinion (because that is all it is) that Covid 19 is about as serious as the Flu are people who refuse to accept the fact (because that is what it is) that Covid is far worse. What troubles me deeply is the small but (thanks to social media) growing number of people who believe our top medicos, scientists etc have all got it wrong. Words fail me. For that to occur it means such people are being hoodwinked...by what a whole world order run but pizza ordering US Democrats and vax makers? Come on let's get real people. Cheers

[windsock]

Anti-intellectualism is not the domain of the US anymore...


There is a cult of ignorance in the United States, and there has always been. The strain of anti-intellectualism has been a constant thread winding its way through our political and cultural life, nurtured by the false notion that democracy means that 'my ignorance is just as good as your knowledge.'

[bob10]

I can't agree. I do not think the medical industry is responsible, I think it is basically the fault of the poor state of science education in this country over many years, and the scientific illiteracy of the vast majority of both state and federal politicians, backed by the "short termism" of their financial advisers, staffed by MBAs, together with the lack of leadership shown by politicians of all ilks who are not prepared, even in a crisis, to put their sworn duty ahead of their perceived re-election prospects.

It isn't about children, - even if you exclude them is there any reason why we should not aim for a vaccination rate that is comparable to what we have achieved for childhood illnesses? And since we have effectively made these mandatory for children and also made various vaccinations mandatory for some circumstances, including for entry into Australia from some locations (and have done so for over a hundred years), why on earth is it not extended to the current crisis?

Well said. Suddenly the narrative has shifted from get the numbers down, then manage the virus with vaccinations and safe practice, to open up at all costs, no matter what the hospitalisations or deaths. And gambling with children's lives ? Unthinkable.

[windsock]

Well said. Suddenly the narrative has shifted from get the numbers down, then manage the virus with vaccinations and safe practice, to open up at all costs, no matter what the hospitalisations or deaths. And gambling with children's lives ? Unthinkable.

I don't think it has been sudden. I have noticed it in the Aust media for a few weeks now, subtly inserting itself into the dialog. It is even starting to appear from our leaders over here.

[bob10]

I don't think it has been sudden. I have noticed it in the Aust media for a few weeks now, subtly inserting itself into the dialog. It is even starting to appear from our leaders over here.

Upon reflection you are right. Could it be that Boris has set the agenda?

[DiscoMick]

Has anyone read an explanation anywhere of why the NSW Govt has again refused to consider the Qld proposal to move the border checkpoint to the Tweed bridge, so Tweed residents would be inside the checkpoint and not have to go through it every day?
It seems logical to me, and it would certainly make life easier for Tweed residents north of the river who work in Qld.
I haven't read any statement of why it hasn't been accepted by NSW. Just curious.

[austastar]

Hi,
Another example of arbitary lines on a map losing relevance with time.
Cheers

[Tote]

Has anyone read an explanation anywhere of why the NSW Govt has again refused to consider the Qld proposal to move the border checkpoint to the Tweed bridge, so Tweed residents would be inside the checkpoint and not have to go through it every day?
It seems logical to me, and it would certainly make life easier for Tweed residents north of the river who work in Qld.
I haven't read any statement of why it hasn't been accepted by NSW. Just curious.

Because it would benefit Qld and disadvantage NSW I would imagine, All of the services in Tweed Heads would be unavailable to the NSW residents in the area at the whim of the Qld Government. The same approach could be asked of Qld why they do not allow a "border bubble" as the ACT and Victoria have done. Again, a lack of control from Qld on who enters their state being the answer there (not that I'm saying that is necessarily bad).
As an example of the potential complications moving the border south would put Tweed heads hospital in a zone that Qld would demand be isolated in the event of an outbreak. A NSW resident in Kingscliff needs to access the facilities and would not be able to under the current Qld restrictions. Not to mention the legality of Qld attempting to enforce a closed border on NSW soil. Another example using the Hospital would be that NSW funds the staff at the hospital and those staff would be being paid for by a state that cannot access the services they provide. A very big can of worms.
Barilaro did dismiss the idea as being too legally complex to implement.

Regards,
Tote

[Tote]

I can't agree. I do not think the medical industry is responsible, I think it is basically the fault of the poor state of science education in this country over many years, and the scientific illiteracy of the vast majority of both state and federal politicians, backed by the "short termism" of their financial advisers, staffed by MBAs, together with the lack of leadership shown by politicians of all ilks who are not prepared, even in a crisis, to put their sworn duty ahead of their perceived re-election prospects.

It isn't about children, - even if you exclude them is there any reason why we should not aim for a vaccination rate that is comparable to what we have achieved for childhood illnesses? And since we have effectively made these mandatory for children and also made various vaccinations mandatory for some circumstances, including for entry into Australia from some locations (and have done so for over a hundred years), why on earth is it not extended to the current crisis?

I thought we were aiming for a vaccine rate that is as close to 100% as possible, the NSW premier has certainly stated that on a number of occasions. The 70% and 80% numbers are simply the targets that the government has set to allow restrictions to lift. There is no approved vaccine available for children under 12 and the FDA has only approved 12-15 year olds for the Pfizer vaccine as an emergency measure. This is a very different situation to the childhood vaccines such as Rubella, Diphtheria etc that are given to kids under 4.
Australia is not beholden to the FDA and there is nothing to stop us from vaccinating younger people with Pfizer but it's pretty unlikely.
I think we will find that Covid vaccination will become "effectively mandatory" for everyone over the age of 15 within the next 12 months or so but vaccine supply is still an issue that is being battled and I suggest that there is a balancing act going on between vaccine supply, vaccination logistics and getting people through the door. Registration for vaccination for 16 - 40 year olds on the 30th of August.

Regards,
Tote

[Eevo]

one issue i foresee being a problem, and im going to end up explaining this badly. for shots with a high vaccination rates, eg, measles, only 1 or 2 shots are required for life.

what vaccinations are required yearly? influenza. lets look at influenza vaccinations rates around the world. it's low. i dont have specific figures, its just low. about 75% in australia, one of the best in the world.

year in and year out, can do expect covid vaccinations rates to be any better?

[Tote]

Tetanus is every 5 - 10 years, hepatitis A and B is 6 years, some of the other shots I have to travel overseas are recurring but without looking up my yellow book I can't tell you what they are...

Regards,
Tote

[Eevo]

Tetanus is every 5 - 10 years, hepatitis A and B is 6 years, some of the other shots I have to travel overseas are recurring but without looking up my yellow book I can't tell you what they are...

Regards,
Tote
yes but i think your missing my badly explained point.
the influenza shot is the closest things we have in terms of a regular and ongoing shot. maybe lets using the past as an experience of how the future with a similar situation is going to turn out.

[Arapiles]

Hi,
Another example of arbitary lines on a map losing relevance with time.
Cheers


My new Federal structure would resolve these issues.

[Arapiles]

Well said. Suddenly the narrative has shifted from get the numbers down, then manage the virus with vaccinations and safe practice, to open up at all costs, no matter what the hospitalisations or deaths. And gambling with children's lives ? Unthinkable.


Morrison basically said that today - it sounds awfully like because they've lost control in Sydney they're just going to let it rip.

Which undermines everything we've been doing for the last 18 months.

[Arapiles]

I think we will find that Covid vaccination will become "effectively mandatory" for everyone over the age of 15 within the next 12 months or so but vaccine supply is still an issue that is being battled and I suggest that there is a balancing act going on between vaccine supply, vaccination logistics and getting people through the door. Registration for vaccination for 16 - 40 year olds on the 30th of August.

Regards,
Tote


We've discussed this with my 16 year old and she's happy to be Pfizered, so we'll register her to be done as soon as possible.

That would leave just one member of our family - the youngest - unvaccinated.

[V8Ian]

yes but i think your missing my badly explained point.
the influenza shot is the closest things we have in terms of a regular and ongoing shot. maybe lets using the past as an experience of how the future with a similar situation is going to turn out.
You don't understand the 'flu vaccine. It is not a booster, it is a different vaccine each year, targeting the most commonly anticipated strains.

[Tote]

We've discussed this with my 16 year old and she's happy to be Pfizered, so we'll register her to be done as soon as possible.

That would leave just one member of our family - the youngest - unvaccinated.

Our daughters, 16 and 18 are also keen to be vaccinated ASAP (with Pfizer, not much interest in AZ)

Regards,
Tote

[Eevo]

You don't understand the 'flu vaccine. It is not a booster, it is a different vaccine each year, targeting the most commonly anticipated strains.

are you expecting the covid booster to be based upon the same original strain?
i was hoping it gets updated for delta and other strains.

[Arapiles]

year in and year out, can do expect covid vaccinations rates to be any better?


When the unvaccinated start dying like flies - and it's only the unvaccinated who are dying overseas - then I'd guess that you'll see very high vaccination rates.

[Eevo]

When the unvaccinated start dying like flies - and it's only the unvaccinated who are dying overseas - then I'd guess that you'll see very high vaccination rates.

thats a fair point.

[NavyDiver]

yes but i think your missing my badly explained point.
the influenza shot is the closest things we have in terms of a regular and ongoing shot. maybe lets using the past as an experience of how the future with a similar situation is going to turn out.

Interesting studies on Covid. Assuming it is the same as flu might be a Q itself.

It isn't so assumptions are just that. Similar in some but different in several major ways CDC version (https://www.cdc.gov/flu/symptoms/flu-vs-covid19.htm).

HALO is a guide perhaps (https://www.betterhealth.vic.gov.au/health/healthyliving/vaccines)
It suggests
Which vaccines do we need?Vaccines not only protect us, but vulnerable people in our community (such as the young, the elderly, or those with weakened immunity).
The vaccines we may need are determined by our health, age, lifestyle and occupation. Together, these factors are known as HALO.

HALO is defined as:


Health – some people may benefit from additional or more frequent immunisations due to health factors. For example, pregnant women (https://www.betterhealth.vic.gov.au/health/healthyliving/immunisation-and-pregnancy), premature babies (https://www.betterhealth.vic.gov.au/health/healthyliving/premature-babies), or those with conditions (such as asthma (https://www.betterhealth.vic.gov.au/health/conditionsandtreatments/asthma), diabetes (https://www.betterhealth.vic.gov.au/health/conditionsandtreatments/diabetes), HIV (https://www.betterhealth.vic.gov.au/health/conditionsandtreatments/hiv-and-aids) and disorders of the heart (https://www.betterhealth.vic.gov.au/health/conditionsandtreatments/heart), lungs (https://www.betterhealth.vic.gov.au/conditionsandtreatments/lungs), spleen (https://www.betterhealth.vic.gov.au/health/conditionsandtreatments/spleen) or kidneys (https://www.betterhealth.vic.gov.au/health/conditionsandtreatments/kidneys)).
Age – at certain ages, we are more vulnerable to some illnesses. Such as in: childhood (https://www.betterhealth.vic.gov.au/health/healthyliving/immunisation-childhood), in secondary school (https://www.betterhealth.vic.gov.au/health/healthyliving/immunisation-in-secondary-schools) and when we are older (https://www.betterhealth.vic.gov.au/health/healthyliving/immunisations-for-older-people).
Lifestyle – some lifestyle choices can put us or the community at risk, such as overseas travel (https://www.betterhealth.vic.gov.au/health/healthyliving/travel-immunisation), moving to Australia, becoming a new parent (https://www.betterhealth.vic.gov.au/health/healthyliving/immunisation-and-pregnancy), sexual activity (https://www.betterhealth.vic.gov.au/health/healthyliving/safe-sex), smoking (https://www.betterhealth.vic.gov.au/healthyliving/smoking-and-tobacco), or playing contact sport (https://www.betterhealth.vic.gov.au/healthyliving/keeping-active).
Occupation – some jobs have a higher risk of exposure to infections (https://www.betterhealth.vic.gov.au/health/healthyliving/immunisations-at-work). Such as those who work in hospitals, childcare and emergency services.


Check your immunisation HALO using the Immunisation for Life Infographic (pdf)
(https://www.betterhealth.vic.gov.au/sites/default/files/2021-03/halo---june-2020.pdf) downloadable poster.


Most of the childhood vaccines are done and dusted for me[biggrin]

[Tote]

Morrison basically said that today - it sounds awfully like because they've lost control in Sydney they're just going to let it rip.

Which undermines everything we've been doing for the last 18 months.

It doesn't really undermine it but if the states that currently are covid free remain that way they will have a very difficult set of decisions to make in order to reenter the world. They could remain isolated until they have a higher vaccination percentage but at some point they will need to either remain isolated forever or accept that covid free is not sustainable. NSW does not have such a choice and will head down the path of living with covid as the US and UK have done.

There will also need to be some substantial political manoeuvring from the leaders of the covid free states in order to get public acceptance of living with covid, a task made easier in NSW where there is no viable alternative.

Regards,
Tote

[vnx205]

Something that has puzzled me is the conflicting data about suicides.

I have repeatedly seen claims (often by people trying to downplay the seriousness of COVID-19) that the lockdowns have sent suicide numbers through the roof. Sometimes numbers are quoted that appear to support the claim.

I would have assumed that suicide numbers would be up given the problems caused by the pandemic.

However official figures don't appear to support the claims.

Last year in August, the Victorian Coroner's report revealed that there had been 466 suicides in Victoria that year. The previous year, before COVID and before the lockdowns, there were 468 suicides in Victoria.

Extra information on this site doesn't seem to show a dramatic increase in suicides in the last couple of years.

Data from suicide registers - Australian Institute of Health and Welfare (https://www.aihw.gov.au/suicide-self-harm-monitoring/data/suspected-deaths-by-suicide/data-from-suicide-registers)

Victoria has endured the greatest number of days in lockdown, yet these are the figures for that state.

173034

I am aware of the fact that suicide is a serious problem and has been for some time, but if the current claims are not accurate, that doesn't help the problem being taken seriously.

As I said, i would have expected increased numbers of suicides and struggle to understand why official figures don't support that.

BTW If your response is simply going to be that the authorities are lying to us, don't bother. I am looking for sensible explanations.

[Tote]

Bunnings: Panic buyers head to stores ahead of partial closure (https://www.news.com.au/finance/business/retail/panic-buying-hits-bunnings-ahead-of-partial-closure/news-story/3cfd19e0e8b9c1ec26219f5bea8dd834)

This got me thinking - what poses the greatest risk of transmission, leaving Bunnings open or everyone in Sydney queueing up because all Bunnings shops are closing tomorrow (except for tradies and click and collect)
Shades of poo ticket panic.

Regards,
Tote

[trout1105]

It doesn't really undermine it but if the states that currently are covid free remain that way they will have a very difficult set of decisions to make in order to reenter the world. They could remain isolated until they have a higher vaccination percentage but at some point they will need to either remain isolated forever or accept that covid free is not sustainable. NSW does not have such a choice and will head down the path of living with covid as the US and UK have done.

There will also need to be some substantial political manoeuvring from the leaders of the covid free states in order to get public acceptance of living with covid, a task made easier in NSW where there is no viable alternative.

Regards,
Tote

There isn't much of an alternative in NSW because of the shoddy management of this latest oubreak by the NSW government, Maybe this has been politically engeneered to suit the Governments agenda[bigwhistle]

most of the covid free states are doing just fine with No lockdowns and buisness pretty much as usual mainly because of the way these states have managed their various outbreaks.

IF NSW decides to "Let it Rip" then I think that you will find that NSW will be the one "Isolated" Not the rest of Australia, Be very careful of what you wish for old mate.

[4bee]

Actually Covid Mk 1 was started in "General Chat", that is hardly a "Technical Thread", Ian.

Just sayin'. [bigsmile1]

[Tote]

There isn't much of an alternative in NSW because of the shoddy management of this latest oubreak by the NSW government, Maybe this has been politically engeneered to suit the Governments agenda[bigwhistle]

most of the covid free states are doing just fine with No lockdowns and buisness pretty much as usual mainly because of the way these states have managed their various outbreaks.

IF NSW decides to "Let it Rip" then I think that you will find that NSW will be the one "Isolated" Not the rest of Australia, Be very careful of what you wish for old mate.

Overseas destinations look pretty good as an alternative to isolated Australian states [bigwhistle]

Regards,
Tote

[DiscoMick]

Qld's border controls exempt ambulances, rescue helicopters and people with medical appointments, so I don't buy that argument. Anyway, the regional base hospital is at Lismore, not the Tweed, so people south of the Tweed River could still go to the Lismore Base Hospital for specialist care.

Because it would benefit Qld and disadvantage NSW I would imagine, All of the services in Tweed Heads would be unavailable to the NSW residents in the area at the whim of the Qld Government. The same approach could be asked of Qld why they do not allow a "border bubble" as the ACT and Victoria have done. Again, a lack of control from Qld on who enters their state being the answer there (not that I'm saying that is necessarily bad).
As an example of the potential complications moving the border south would put Tweed heads hospital in a zone that Qld would demand be isolated in the event of an outbreak. A NSW resident in Kingscliff needs to access the facilities and would not be able to under the current Qld restrictions. Not to mention the legality of Qld attempting to enforce a closed border on NSW soil. Another example using the Hospital would be that NSW funds the staff at the hospital and those staff would be being paid for by a state that cannot access the services they provide. A very big can of worms.
Barilaro did dismiss the idea as being too legally complex to implement.

Regards,
Tote

[Tote]

Qld's border controls exempt ambulances, rescue helicopters and people with medical appointments, so I don't buy that argument. Anyway, the regional base hospital is at Lismore, not the Tweed, so people south of the Tweed River could still go to the Lismore Base Hospital for specialist care.

Qld has form on denying people access to their medical facilities Queensland border restrictions prevent NSW baby accessing crucial brain scan - ABC News (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-08-20/tough-qld-border-restrictions-nsw-baby-refused-vital-brain-scan/100393322) , why would NSW willingly submit to that treatment to satisfy Qld residents?

Tweed hospital is a regional referral Level 5 base hospital and besides, using my example the Kingscliff patient has an hour ride to Lismore rather than a local trip to Tweed. Overwhelmingly there is little reason for NSW to agree to such an arrangement.

Regards,
Tote

[V8Ian]

Actually Covid Mk 1 was started in "General Chat", that is hardly a "Technical Thread", Ian.

Just sayin'. [bigsmile1]
Des, the vast majority of contributors want an adult, serious discussion of the subject. The mod team have fielded numerous complaints of off topic posts, with quite a few expressing similar views in the threads.
There are plenty of other threads that are more suitable for off topic and humorous posts. This is a serious, non Land Rover subject.

[350RRC]

thats a fair point.

Already happening.

[350RRC]

Morrison basically said that today - it sounds awfully like because they've lost control in Sydney they're just going to let it rip.

Which undermines everything we've been doing for the last 18 months.

Vic was putting bricks in a wall when it counted and is still trying to do the same.

Nothing has been a waste of time mate. There would have been 10k plus dead in Vic alone otherwise, plus the long term side effects.

DL

[Arapiles]

Vic was putting bricks in a wall when it counted and is still trying to do the same.

Nothing has been a waste of time mate. There would have been 10k plus dead in Vic alone otherwise, plus the long term side effects.

DL

What I mean is that to date we have avoided having tens of thousands dead, but if they let it run now that is what we'll get because there's so few people vaccinated.

[Tote]

What I mean is that to date we have avoided having tens of thousands dead, but if they let it run now that is what we'll get because there's so few people vaccinated.

No one is proposing to "let it run". NSW restrictions will remain in place until such time as it is decided that it is safe to gradually lift restrictions. I'm sure the other states will do their best to maintain their covid free status where possible. At some point as has been said in the press the method of judging the impact of covid will need to switch from new cases to hospitalisations as that will be a real measure of the harm done.

Unfortunately this will mean that there will be an ongoing toll that will be higher than desirable but I can't see Any alternative if Australia is to rejoin the world. The US is a bad place to look at as an example though due to their locally patchy vaccination status.

Canada has a 7 day average death rate of 4 with 72.99% of the population over 12 fully vaccinated and and 62% of the total population vaccinated. As best as I can find aside from travel restrictions in some areas there are very few restrictions on normal life.

Regards,
Tote

[Eevo]

Canada has a 7 day average death rate of 4 with 72.99% of the population over 12 fully vaccinated and and 62% of the total population vaccinated.

Regards,
Tote
those numbers sound pretty good.

[Tote]

I was doing some research last night on Canada and while there are state based restrictions they appear to be mostly travel related. One piece that I found stated that only infected people had to wear masks whilst they were going about their business. The Canadians that I talk to at work only started returning to work earlier this year after a long lockdown period.
The Canadian death rate is quite different from the US and UK in that there has basically been no Delta peak, although they did it tough earlier this year.
canada covid deaths - Google Search (https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&q=canada+covid+deaths)

Regards,
Tote

[4bee]

Des, the vast majority of contributors want an adult, serious discussion of the subject. The mod team have fielded numerous complaints of off topic posts, with quite a few expressing similar views in the threads.
There are plenty of other threads that are more suitable for off topic and humorous posts. This is a serious, non Land Rover subject.



That is fine, but someone had to raise that point as I feel sure it may have crossed other minds. [thumbsupbig]

[Grumbles]

Mental heath is a common catch cry when talking about lock downs. But what about the 7 million or so who for what ever reason will not be vaccinated when the arbitrary figure of 70% or 80% of the population are vaccinated and the lock downs/restrictions are withdrawn.

Does anyone really care about the mental anguish that the unvaccinated group is now subjected to?

I can't imagine the pressue they are under. They know that their future is at best bleak. That they won't be allowed to travel, go to work, enter recreational premises, shop in supermarkets, hardware retailers etc. The list is endless. On top of this they also know that their health and even their lives will be jeopardised. c

[Homestar]

Mental heath is a common catch cry when talking about lock downs. But what about the 7 million or so who for what ever reason will not be vaccinated when the arbitrary figure of 70% or 80% of the population are vaccinated and the lock downs/restrictions are withdrawn.

Does anyone really care about the mental anguish that the unvaccinated group is now subjected to?

I can't imagine the pressue they are under. They know that their future is at best bleak. That they won't be allowed to travel, go to work, enter recreational premises, shop in supermarkets, hardware retailers etc. The list is endless. On top of this they also know that their health and even their lives will be jeopardised. c

Or they could just get vaccinated as they become eligible.

Covid isn’t the only vax that stops you from doing things. Plenty of places you can’t go without proof of vaccination.

Some will have to wait a bit longer than required but anyone that wants and can get one should be able to get one within the next few months.

As for those that don’t want to for whatever reason - We all live with the consequences of our actions for every decision we make.

[bob10]

The PM was on the ABC radio not long ago, promoting the new road map out of Covid. He kept saying " the best medical advice ", the same mantra that the NSW Premier was saying, but nothing to back that up. Looking at NSW ATM, I think most people want to know what that medical advice is, and who gave it. Anything less, it is just marketing talk, with no substance. The fact that no one will take ownership of that advice, makes our PM sound like a spruiker at a sideshow.

[TonyC]

Or they could just get vaccinated…

Covid isn’t the only vax that stops you from doing things. Plenty of places you can’t go without proof of vaccination.Except for those that can't! Like my 17 year old. But next week [emoji3]
As for the 20 year old, his all growed up and moved out of home, all I can do is keep up the encouragement, and keep listening to the "Yes Dad I will, I just haven't got round to it"
Tony

[bob10]

Except for those that can't! Like my 17 year old. But next week [emoji3]
As for the 20 year old, his all growed up and moved out of home, all I can do is keep up the encouragement, and keep listening to the "Yes Dad I will, I just haven't got round to it"
Tony

I've got one of those too. Convincing him Covid should be higher on his list of priorities is hard work. [bigsad]

[Grumbles]

Or they could just get vaccinated as they become eligible.



It is exactly that attitude that is the problem. A flippant dismissal of their plight helps no-one. The 30% unvaccinated group can be physically represented as being the total population of Victoria and South Australia. The point is that government policy/practice is , one way or another, going to hurt a substantial number of Aussies yet no-one is talking about it.

[TonyC]

It is exactly that attitude that is the problem. A flippant dismissal of their plight helps no-one. The 30% unvaccinated group can be physically represented as being the total population of Victoria and South Australia. The point is that government policy/practice is , one way or another, going to hurt a substantial number of Aussies yet no-one is talking about it.Of that 30%
What percentage are ineligible, and what percentage chose, for whatever reason, not partake?
Given the number of kids contracting Delta, it might become a pandemic of the school yard [emoji20]

Tony

[4bee]

It is exactly that attitude that is the problem. A flippant dismissal of their plight helps no-one. The 30% unvaccinated group can be physically represented as being the total population of Victoria and South Australia. The point is that government policy/practice is , one way or another, going to hurt a substantial number of Aussies yet no-one is talking about it.



Fer cryin' out loud G, there has been enough education, publicity & untruths out there, but they obviously take no notice & you can't forcibly give it to them.


Talking doesn't either it seems, so what more can a Parent do? Smack their arse & send them to stand in the corner on a Bread & Water diet for a week?


I still believe that all the hoo haa that has taken place is still confusing a lot of people but let us hope that they will see the error of their ways before it is too late.

[Homestar]

It is exactly that attitude that is the problem. A flippant dismissal of their plight helps no-one. The 30% unvaccinated group can be physically represented as being the total population of Victoria and South Australia. The point is that government policy/practice is , one way or another, going to hurt a substantial number of Aussies yet no-one is talking about it.

Explain that please? Anyone that wants one will be able to get one. What else needs saying?

Sorry but I have ZERO sympathy or time for anyone not wanting to get one just 'Because'. It's people like that being selfish that will prolong this whole drawn out affair.

Maybe I've missed your point, so you might have to explain a bit more?

[NavyDiver]

we had 240 or 40 fizzer bottles. We used 60 friday then 42 saturday but had a few left so we had. 108 or 18 vials in the fridge.

Delivery date? when Oddly I had 1/8 on my mind so dopey me added 31 days to make our fridge stored expiry date.

Just about to kick my poor sods to use another 48 this Saturday or this Thursday to finish off the ones left after this Fridays session! Happily I checked. Defrost date 8- August. Delivery Date was 10 August. I ordered 1 August [bigrolf]

Not one drop left over again[thumbsupbig] 200 inbound AZ and 240 fizer to keep my skates on.

Its a flip flop daily with adding and subtracting bookings for 1st and 2nd dose. Checking records, checking AIR records. If I don't run this week I may be in trouble and now we have a 1 hour exercise limit I am back to short distance Boo Hoo

The path nurse told me her family Doc isn't doing Covid as its "is just too hard" The woose - Learn to Count I say waving my hands in the air insanely laughing - Just kidding.

PS Sneaking another anti vaxxers kid in this week. We did the rest of the family on Saturday apparent they told the ONE it was for a wart Liquid Nitrogen Burn. [biggrin]


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZIniljT5lJI

[Homestar]

Except for those that can't! Like my 17 year old. But next week [emoji3]
As for the 20 year old, his all growed up and moved out of home, all I can do is keep up the encouragement, and keep listening to the "Yes Dad I will, I just haven't got round to it"
Tony

I did mention those that are eligible - everyone will be at some point.

[trout1105]

Mental heath is a common catch cry when talking about lock downs. But what about the 7 million or so who for what ever reason will not be vaccinated when the arbitrary figure of 70% or 80% of the population are vaccinated and the lock downs/restrictions are withdrawn.

Does anyone really care about the mental anguish that the unvaccinated group is now subjected to?

I can't imagine the pressue they are under. They know that their future is at best bleak. That they won't be allowed to travel, go to work, enter recreational premises, shop in supermarkets, hardware retailers etc. The list is endless. On top of this they also know that their health and even their lives will be jeopardised. c

In the not so distant future EVERYONE will have access to a vaccination and there is absolutely No way that 30% 20% or even 10% of the population will be unnable to get a vaccination due to medical reasons more like a small fraction of 1% will have a valid reason not to get vaccinated .
Everyone else that CHOOSES Not to get the jabs will simply have to live with the risks and inconvenience of their own personal choices.

Do I care about those that Choose not to get vaccinated and put themselves at risk ( and others in the community) ?
Yes I do because their selfishness puts others at risk.
Do I care that those that Choose Not to get vaccinated are inconvenienced in order the make the rest of the community safe?
Not one iota, They make their bed so they can lay in it.

[ChookD2]

The PM was on the ABC radio not long ago, promoting the new road map out of Covid. He kept saying " the best medical advice ", the same mantra that the NSW Premier was saying, but nothing to back that up. Looking at NSW ATM, I think most people want to know what that medical advice is, and who gave it. Anything less, it is just marketing talk, with no substance. The fact that no one will take ownership of that advice, makes our PM sound like a spruiker at a sideshow.

Each state premier and the Prime Monkey are all working on the "best medical advice". But they all seem to be getting different advice. [bigwhistle]

No wonder J. Citizen is so confused. :wallbash:

[DiscoDB]

Each state premier and the Prime Monkey are all working on the "best medical advice". But they all seem to be getting different advice. [bigwhistle]

No wonder J. Citizen is so confused. :wallbash:

Perhaps it’s the best medical advice to keep their re-election hopes alive. [emoji848]

[NavyDiver]

Perhaps it’s the best medical advice to keep their re-election hopes alive. [emoji848]

Or come up with a plan B???
Richard Nelson, a software engineer in Sydney, has found an "obvious" security flaw in the Express Plus Medicare app allowing him to make vaccine certificates with any name and date of birth and featuring the background animations meant to prevent forgery.


https://live-production.wcms.abc-cdn.net.au/dbd82af6b86da3a3478100e1e7e71d22?impolicy=wcms_cro p_resize&cropH=354&cropW=630&xPos=0&yPos=32&width=862&height=485

The Prime Minister has previously said the certificates are a "credible and effective" way for states to administer exemptions from aspects of lockdowns.


I like block chain myself for a Vax ID I mean. Not cypto just Block Chain.

Nurse asked to add 4- Need 6 so added 2. Then subtracted 1 so added mum of one the extras. The Count goes on.


Noting like the Vax card I didn't know about until I see its a FAIL before I knew about it. If I stuff up the COUNT a few people are going to be grumpy with me[bigrolf] 1 2 60 .................................................. ..........................

.

[trout1105]

Each state premier and the Prime Monkey are all working on the "best medical advice". But they all seem to be getting different advice. [bigwhistle]

No wonder J. Citizen is so confused. :wallbash:

I imagine that they are getting top notch medical advice, However that advice has to be altered to suit the political agenda/ambition of the various State premiers and the PM himself and this is why each State is following its own path out of this pandemic.

You only have to look at which States are doing a better job of controlling the COV19 outbreaks to see which premiers are following the medical advisors and not the political advisors[thumbsupbig]

[Tombie]

I imagine that they are getting top notch medical advice, However that advice has to be altered to suit the political agenda/ambition of the various State premiers and the PM himself and this is why each State is following its own path out of this pandemic.

You only have to look at which States are doing a better job of controlling the COV19 outbreaks to see which premiers are following the medical advisors and not the political advisors[thumbsupbig]

Or is that a happy coincidence [emoji41]

[DiscoMick]

I'll just repeat that Qld exempts ambulances and medical appointments from border controls so the child needing the brain scan and the Kingscliff patient could cross the border. Those are the rules.
You can read it for yourself in Part 3 of this link:

Border Restrictions Direction (No. 37) | Queensland Health (https://www.health.qld.gov.au/system-governance/legislation/cho-public-health-directions-under-expanded-public-health-act-powers/border-restrictions)

Qld has form on denying people access to their medical facilities Queensland border restrictions prevent NSW baby accessing crucial brain scan - ABC News (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-08-20/tough-qld-border-restrictions-nsw-baby-refused-vital-brain-scan/100393322) , why would NSW willingly submit to that treatment to satisfy Qld residents?

Tweed hospital is a regional referral Level 5 base hospital and besides, using my example the Kingscliff patient has an hour ride to Lismore rather than a local trip to Tweed. Overwhelmingly there is little reason for NSW to agree to such an arrangement.

Regards,
Tote

[Eevo]

Or is that a happy coincidence [emoji41]

I'll go with happy coincidence. i feel like Vic is following the "best health advice" and they're losing the current battle.

[Eevo]

given that the vax does not prevent transmission and it does not confer immunity, doesn't that make a vax passport largely irrelevant as there is no point distinguishing between vaxed/non-vaxed.

[Tote]

Or come up with a plan B???
Richard Nelson, a software engineer in Sydney, has found an "obvious" security flaw in the Express Plus Medicare app allowing him to make vaccine certificates with any name and date of birth and featuring the background animations meant to prevent forgery.


https://live-production.wcms.abc-cdn.net.au/dbd82af6b86da3a3478100e1e7e71d22?impolicy=wcms_cro p_resize&cropH=354&cropW=630&xPos=0&yPos=32&width=862&height=485

The Prime Minister has previously said the certificates are a "credible and effective" way for states to administer exemptions from aspects of lockdowns.


I like block chain myself for a Vax ID I mean. Not cypto just Block Chain.

Nurse asked to add 4- Need 6 so added 2. Then subtracted 1 so added mum of one the extras. The Count goes on.


Noting like the Vax card I didn't know about until I see its a FAIL before I knew about it. If I stuff up the COUNT a few people are going to be grumpy with me[bigrolf] 1 2 60 .................................................. ..........................

.

I wonder if they used the same developers as the federal covid app ?

Regards,
Tote

[4bee]

we had 240 or 40 fizzer bottles. We used 60 friday then 42 saturday but had a few left so we had. 108 or 18 vials in the fridge.

Delivery date? when Oddly I had 1/8 on my mind so dopey me added 31 days to make our fridge stored expiry date.

Just about to kick my poor sods to use another 48 this Saturday or this Thursday to finish off the ones left after this Fridays session! Happily I checked. Defrost date 8- August. Delivery Date was 10 August. I ordered 1 August [bigrolf]

Not one drop left over again[thumbsupbig] 200 inbound AZ and 240 fizer to keep my skates on.

Its a flip flop daily with adding and subtracting bookings for 1st and 2nd dose. Checking records, checking AIR records. If I don't run this week I may be in trouble and now we have a 1 hour exercise limit I am back to short distance Boo Hoo

The path nurse told me her family Doc isn't doing Covid as its "is just too hard" The woose - Learn to Count I say waving my hands in the air insanely laughing - Just kidding.

PS Sneaking another anti vaxxers kid in this week. We did the rest of the family on Saturday apparent they told the ONE it was for a wart Liquid Nitrogen Burn. [biggrin]


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=ZIniljT5lJI


I had a Nitro Burn a few months ago for something on my nut. I think he overdid it a tad as the effect was similar to the "strange" headache you get as if I'd eaten 10 Ice Creams/Blocks, very fast.


It worked but I'm not sure if it was the do-dad,:dbcry::BigCry::Rolling: or my head that went.

[101RRS]

I'll just repeat that Qld exempts ambulances and medical appointments from border controls so the child needing the brain scan and the Kingscliff patient could cross the border. Those are the rules.
You can read it for yourself in Part 3 of this link:

Border Restrictions Direction (No. 37) | Queensland Health (https://www.health.qld.gov.au/system-governance/legislation/cho-public-health-directions-under-expanded-public-health-act-powers/border-restrictions)

I have no idea whether they are the rules or not, but news reports last week had Qld police turning back NSW residents who had specialist appointments in SE Qld and were told to make specialist appointments in their own State - as well as NSW resident school teachers who work in SE Qld schools.

May have been over zealous enforcement but did happen.

[4bee]

Or come up with a plan B???
Richard Nelson, a software engineer in Sydney, has found an "obvious" security flaw in the Express Plus Medicare app allowing him to make vaccine certificates with any name and date of birth and featuring the background animations meant to prevent forgery.


https://live-production.wcms.abc-cdn.net.au/dbd82af6b86da3a3478100e1e7e71d22?impolicy=wcms_cro p_resize&cropH=354&cropW=630&xPos=0&yPos=32&width=862&height=485

The Prime Minister has previously said the certificates are a "credible and effective" way for states to administer exemptions from aspects of lockdowns.


I like block chain myself for a Vax ID I mean. Not cypto just Block Chain.

Nurse asked to add 4- Need 6 so added 2. Then subtracted 1 so added mum of one the extras. The Count goes on.


Noting like the Vax card I didn't know about until I see its a FAIL before I knew about it. If I stuff up the COUNT a few people are going to be grumpy with me[bigrolf] 1 2 60 .................................................. ..........................

.


They are paying some IT Guru some thousands of $ so that cannot happen & yet it still does. What's the worst that can happen

[Homestar]

Perhaps it’s the best medical advice to keep their re-election hopes alive. [emoji848]

They might need one of these I think...

173055

[NavyDiver]

They might need one of these I think...

173055

I fear we all might. The 450 staff,doctors and nurse missing from RHM is bad. They can and will make do. Little places do not have the numbers flexibility. News like "Goulburn Valley Health (GV Health) has furloughed more than 150 staff" scare the pants off me.

An ambulance crew were picking up a heart attack just out side work before. A lot of chatter were was best to try and take the emergency case. They had a few options which do not take a 100km drive like may happen if impacts on our very important hospital staff get kicked like just happened in Shepparton. Wanted to run a 1/2 marathon in Shep in a few days[bawl][bawl][bawl] Small issue of course.

[JDNSW]

I have no idea whether they are the rules or not, but news reports last week had Qld police turning back NSW residents who had specialist appointments in SE Qld and were told to make specialist appointments in their own State - as well as NSW resident school teachers who work in SE Qld schools.

May have been over zealous enforcement but did happen.

Also reports today of Goulburn residents going to Canberra for their second vaccination being turned back at the ACT border.

[TonyC]

I did mention those that are eligible - everyone will be at some point.Yes, I noticed that you had edited it after I replied.
But it doesn't change the fact that under 18s, generally, aren't eligible.
That will, change at the end of the month to under 16s, and at some stage down to 12.
At this stage none of the vaccines are approved for under 12s.
That leaves a big gap.
But I agree those who choose to not get vaccinated get to live with that choice, and those few who can't, need ALL of the rest of us vaxed.

Tony

[Tote]

Also reports today of Goulburn residents going to Canberra for their second vaccination being turned back at the ACT border.

Goulburn isn't part of the border area that is allowed into the ACT as part of the border arrangements so I would assume that is correct unless they have applied for an exemption.

"We recognise that there are many individuals from regional NSW affected by the COVID affected area requirements who need to travel to the ACT on a daily or very regular basis and do not live in one of the postcode areas listed in the standing exemption. These individuals should seek an exemption from ACT Health using the online form and outline the reasons for their travel (eg essential work). Individuals will only need to apply for an exemption once rather than on each entry." from here Standing Exemptions (including transiting) - COVID-19 (https://www.covid19.act.gov.au/travel/entering-the-act/travel-directions-in-the-act/standing-exemptions-including-transiting)

Border residents are covered under a standing exemption
NSW/ACT border residents - COVID-19 (https://www.covid19.act.gov.au/travel/nswact-border-residents)

Regards,
Tote

[DiscoMick]

From what I can figure, the key question from the Doherty Report is, will we accept 'living with the virus' if that means about 30 cases spreading into 35,000 - 55,000 in 6 months?
For comparison, NSW currently has about 10,000 cases.
Can't speak for other states, but in Qld life is already currently relatively normal with minimal restrictions after repeated lockdowns and tough border restrictions. I doubt if people here would be happy with that many cases, particularly if a large number of them were unvaccinated children. I wouldn't.

Why is Australia at odds over the Doherty report and what does it say about opening up the country? | Coronavirus | The Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/aug/23/why-is-australia-at-odds-over-the-doherty-report-and-what-does-it-say-about-opening-up-the-country?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other)

[JDNSW]

Goulburn isn't part of the border area that is allowed into the ACT as part of the border arrangements so I would assume that is correct unless they have applied for an exemption.

"We recognise that there are many individuals from regional NSW affected by the COVID affected area requirements who need to travel to the ACT on a daily or very regular basis and do not live in one of the postcode areas listed in the standing exemption. These individuals should seek an exemption from ACT Health using the online form and outline the reasons for their travel (eg essential work). Individuals will only need to apply for an exemption once rather than on each entry." from here Standing Exemptions (including transiting) - COVID-19 (https://www.covid19.act.gov.au/travel/entering-the-act/travel-directions-in-the-act/standing-exemptions-including-transiting)

Border residents are covered under a standing exemption
NSW/ACT border residents - COVID-19 (https://www.covid19.act.gov.au/travel/nswact-border-residents)

Regards,
Tote

According to the news I have seen, the ACT has said they will not give exemptions for vaccination, but will supply NSW Health with the vaccines for those who have already got their first shot.

[trout1105]

Until we have EVERYONE vaccinated that possibly can be it will be sheer lunacy to simply let this virus run its course.
IF NSW wants to go down this very dangerous path then there is SFA I can do about it except hope and prey that the WA government keeps this virus locked out of the State until we have Everyone vaccinated and not just 70-80% (Not including kids) like NSW ( and the PM) is espousing.

[Arapiles]

But what about the 7 million or so who for what ever reason will not be vaccinated when the arbitrary figure of 70% or 80% of the population are vaccinated and the lock downs/restrictions are withdrawn.
c


Why would that 7 million be unvaccinated?

A large percentage of any such number would be kids under 16 years of age, who are unlikely to be affected by any vaccine passport restrictions.

[Tombie]

Until we have EVERYONE vaccinated that possibly can be it will be sheer lunacy to simply let this virus run its course.
IF NSW wants to go down this very dangerous path then there is SFA I can do about it except hope and prey that the WA government keeps this virus locked out of the State until we have Everyone vaccinated and not just 70-80% (Not including kids) like NSW ( and the PM) is espousing.

Isn’t WA currently the worst state for take up of anti-virus [emoji56]

This variant is coming like a freight train. It’s not if, it’s when.

[101RRS]

Also reports today of Goulburn residents going to Canberra for their second vaccination being turned back at the ACT border.

Yes the border is closed to non permit holders who live outside the border bubble and vaccinations are available in NSW. I am sure that no one will be stopped for specialist medical appointments in Canberra.

[101RRS]

Until we have EVERYONE vaccinated that possibly can be it will be sheer lunacy to simply let this virus run its course.
IF NSW wants to go down this very dangerous path then there is SFA I can do about it except hope and prey that the WA government keeps this virus locked out of the State until we have Everyone vaccinated and not just 70-80% (Not including kids) like NSW ( and the PM) is espousing.

No one is saying just let the virus run its course.

In the National Cabinet Premiers and Chief Ministers signed up to the 70-80% vaccination target for lockdowns to become the exception rather than the rule - other actions are still available. Some leaders have since taken a different stand. The Treasurer has indicated that States who do not abide by the agreements made in National Cabinet (noting that these may also change over time) after the 70-80% vaccinated target has been reached may have levels of funding removed from that State or Territory until they comply.

[trout1105]

Isn’t WA currently the worst state for take up of anti-virus [emoji56]

This variant is coming like a freight train. It’s not if, it’s when.

WA has already had Delta cases But unlike some other States the lockdowns actually worked[biggrin][thumbsupbig]
We also have the Nullabor and the Great sandy desert beween us and the (apparantly) unstoppable outbreaks in the East[thumbsupbig][bigrolf]

[trout1105]

The Treasurer has indicated that States who do not abide by the agreements made in National Cabinet (noting that these may also change over time) after the 70-80% vaccinated target has been reached may have levels of funding removed from that State or Territory until they comply.

What is to stop the States/Territories from witholding the mineral royalties that the Federal government is so reliant on to make up the shortfall in funding.
Bullying the various States/Territories by the Fedral Government with a finacial bullwhip could prove to be a finacial disaster Federally.

[bob10]

I imagine that they are getting top notch medical advice, However that advice has to be altered to suit the political agenda/ambition of the various State premiers and the PM himself and this is why each State is following its own path out of this pandemic.

You only have to look at which States are doing a better job of controlling the COV19 outbreaks to see which premiers are following the medical advisors and not the political advisors[thumbsupbig]

Just saw a headline " Gladys says Zero covid is impossible."
Qld had a delta outbreak, up to 15,000 people in home quarantine, we now have zero covid , has been for a few days now. Not sure how many are in home quarantine now, but last looked, it was just over 1,000.Covid zero is possible, but probably impossible to stay like that, with delta. It doesn't help when just over the border they have completely lost control , and think that should be the new norm. I have been wondering , do the people advocating opening up under these circumstances have children under 16? I wonder.

[DiscoDB]

I fear Victoria won’t be able to beat this third wave either. Too many people now ignoring the rules and too many cases in the community whilst infected.

If daily cases pass 100 we will be locked down for the rest of 2021 or until the level of vaccinations bring this back under control.

[trout1105]

Here ya go. I have no words.

Zero COVID 'just not possible', NSW Premier Gladys Berejiklian says (msn.com) (https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/sydney/zero-covid-just-not-possible-nsw-premier-gladys-berejiklian-says/ar-AANCU5Y?ocid=winp1taskbar)

This is what happens when you have a lunatic running the asylum[bigwhistle]

Why is it that just because the NSW government can't/won't get this outbreak under control and yet other States/Territories can and do get the infections under control Aunty Glad is convinced that ALL of Australia Must get infected because she just wants to give up because she is finding it too hard???

[BradC]

WA has already had Delta cases But unlike some other States the lockdowns actually worked[biggrin][thumbsupbig]

Look, I'm as WA as the rest of us, but we've had a false-positive, a lucky catch and SFA else. The fact we've got away as well as we have is down to 3 things :
- Luck;
- Population density;
- Distance;
- an over zealous Premier who over-counts cases; and
- Luck.

The reason we lock down as much as we do is because if we didn't our already overwhelmed health system would buckle with more than 5 cases.

I'm hoping to hell those East of the rabbit proof fence get it together and under control before it breaks loose here and hits my 7 year old, because he'll be last to get the *****.

Easy to sit here and throw spears, like the Premier does, but when we lock down here we see the same kind of Lunacy I saw in Vic last year and my relies are seeing in NSW now. We've just been "fortunate" thus far.

[DiscoMick]

Are we prepared to accept 25,000 deaths as the price of reopening at 80% of adults vaccinated? I don't think so.

Ending lockdowns with 80% vaccinated could cause 25,000 Australian deaths, new modelling suggests | Coronavirus | The Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/aug/24/ending-lockdowns-with-80-vaccinated-could-cause-25000-australian-deaths-new-modelling-suggests?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other)

[bob10]

This is what happens when you have a lunatic running the asylum[bigwhistle]

Why is it that just because the NSW government can't/won't get this outbreak under control and yet other States/Territories can and do get the infections under control Aunty Glad is convinced that ALL of Australia Must get infected because she just wants to give up because she is finding it too hard???

That may be a little harsh. Delta got out of control in NSW, but it wasn't a deliberate act by the NSW government trying to prove their philosophy worked the best. It did work, with Alpha. Delta is a different beast. But because delta is a different beast, the Doherty report mandating 70% of adults vaccinated as the start point for opening up is proving to be a flawed concept. Overseas , Israel and now the UK have found it just doesn't work that way. Now the " best health advice " overseas is saying 90 % of the Population vaccinated [ children included] is the magic number. Does any one really know? The whole World seems to be playing catch up with delta.

I just would like to have a word about the border problems with Qld and the Tweed. I think the problem is in the nomenclature. Saying they want to shift the border south is of course going to cause consternation in NSW, with the inference being NSW can't control their border. No government can tolerate that. What they really mean is the check points must be moved south, in order to allow the Tweed residents direct access to their jobs in Qld. Give the NSW Police direct control over those checkpoints, with assistance from the Qld Police if requested , or better still use those ADF members swanning around Western Sydney, under NSW Police supervision, and employ them doing an actual worthwhile job.

The Qld government, with NSW's permission could set up mobile testing in strategic spots in the Tweed, and next to them mobile vaccination points. Then mandate every worker crossing into Qld must have at least the first jab, and must have a negative test result. Qld Police would still have the responsibility of deciding who crosses into Qld, the people from the Tweed get to go to work, and NSW still has sovereignty over their border. In other words , putting it crudely, no one has a bigger dick than any one else and peoples sensitivities that make them readily offended and shocked can be met. Why is it so hard? Why are governments still playing politics with this pandemic in Australia?

[SpudHeadTed]

So much for no politics in this thread! …very difficult given the pandemic is so politicised!

The reality is that the Corona Virus is not the slightest bit interested in politics and those playing politics with this pandemic will lose.

In Israel it’s blindingly obvious that 78% of eligible population vaccinated (60% of whole population), which is comparative to the current Australian target, is not enough for herd immunity.

We have a very long and potentially disastrous road ahead under current policy settings.

COVID cases are rising in highly vaccinated Israel. But it doesn't mean Australia should give up and 'live with' the virus (https://theconversation.com/covid-cases-are-rising-in-highly-vaccinated-israel-but-it-doesnt-mean-australia-should-give-up-and-live-with-the-virus-166404?utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Latest%20from%20The%20Conversation%20 for%20August%2024%202021%20-%202039820069&utm_content=Latest%20from%20The%20Conversation%20f or%20August%2024%202021%20-%202039820069+CID_3f9eebf0e23f1cd68de2bd2995c880ac&utm_source=campaign_monitor&utm_term=COVID%20cases%20are%20rising%20in%20highl y%20vaccinated%20Israel%20But%20it%20doesnt%20mean %20Australia%20should%20give%20up%20and%20live%20w ith%20the%20virus)

[Saitch]

Why is it so hard? Why are governments still playing politics with this pandemic in Australia?

Bob, go back circa 1901!

[bob10]

Bob, go back circa 1901!

Can I just go back to the 70's? And know what I know now? [bigsmile1]

[bob10]

Are we prepared to accept 25,000 deaths as the price of reopening at 80% of adults vaccinated? I don't think so.

Ending lockdowns with 80% vaccinated could cause 25,000 Australian deaths, new modelling suggests | Coronavirus | The Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/aug/24/ending-lockdowns-with-80-vaccinated-could-cause-25000-australian-deaths-new-modelling-suggests?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other)

Even the Doherty plan says there would be restrictions with high case numbers. It seems the narrative is being taken out of the hands of Health experts, and hijacked by politicians.

[DiscoDB]

Are we prepared to accept 25,000 deaths as the price of reopening at 80% of adults vaccinated? I don't think so.

Ending lockdowns with 80% vaccinated could cause 25,000 Australian deaths, new modelling suggests | Coronavirus | The Guardian (https://www.theguardian.com/world/2021/aug/24/ending-lockdowns-with-80-vaccinated-could-cause-25000-australian-deaths-new-modelling-suggests?CMP=Share_AndroidApp_Other)

I think once vaccines have been given to every one who wants one, then yes society will accept a higher death rate if it is seen as impacting primarily on those who choose not to get vaccinated.

Very much like we accept high death rates from smoking (and many other preventable causes) as we rationalise this as being about personal choice.

At some point the public will decide (not the politicians) and the increasing levels of protesting and defiance is a sign that this is already starting.

[bob10]

News from Qld. The Government is preparing for the worst, with moves to secure food supplies and vaccinate workers. Workers at food distribution plants and meatworks are being targeted for vaccinations. When major super market chains were unable to promptly deliver groceries to thousands of people in home quarantine , the State Government had to utilise the " Care Army ". The Government has already prioritised food distribution workers for vaccines, but the take up has been low. With additional Pfizer vaccines now coming into QLD, they will take the jabs to 28 food distribution centres and meat processing plants, rather than wait for workers to make an appointment themselves.

Qld Health has already moved to address weaknesses in vaccination coverage by moving more jabs to border towns, establishing new hubs in Logan and Caboolture, targeting first nations people in urban areas, in addition to mobile units in Cape York. Qld Health has been able to halve the vaccination waiting list, but more residents must register for vaccination, now they have more Pfizer.

Qld prepares for the worst, moves to secure food supplies, vaccinate workers (inqld.com.au) (https://inqld.com.au/news/2021/08/23/qld-prepares-for-the-worst-moves-to-secure-food-supplies-vaccinate-workers/)

[Grumbles]

Of that 30%
What percentage are ineligible, and what percentage chose, for whatever reason, not partake?

That is a very good question. I am not aware of any research in this area.

Explain that please? Anyone that wants one will be able to get one. What else needs saying?


Will they? Will their personal perceptions of the vaccination prevent them from being vaccinated. Again there is no research into why people are declining the vaccination. Fear of the unknown is a real and debilitating emotion. At this stage of the pandemic getting vaccinated is a 'here and now' health risk. Fear of catching Covid is a distant concept so a blind eye is turned to it. Why? From day one there have been multiple changes to vaccination practice. The constantly changing rhetoric on TV and the multiple calls to get vaccinated can and does cause fear, confusion and distrust. Politicians are generally not trusted when it comes to individual personal health matters.


In the not so distant future EVERYONE will have access to a vaccination and there is absolutely No way that 30% 20% or even 10% of the population will be unnable to get a vaccination due to medical reasons more like a small fraction of 1% will have a valid reason not to get vaccinated .
Everyone else that CHOOSES Not to get the jabs will simply have to live with the risks and inconvenience of their own personal choices.


Medical reasons for not getting vaccinated are not confined solely to physical conditions. Mental/psychological conditions are a real and debilitating illness. They can and do prevent sufferers from participating in many aspects of life. Fear is a huge emotion so being injected with a new drug that is known to kill will be too much for many.

How this may be overcome is a challenge media personalities is not the answer.but haranguing by politicians, Epidemiologists.

Some politicians, academics and the PM are promoting 70% or 80% vaccination rate as being the objective for the end of restrictions etc. That 20% of us will be unvaccinated and liable to get Covid doesn't seem too bad at first glance.

But......has anyone really thought this through?

Australia has a population of 25 million. The unvaccinated number of people given 80% vaccinations is 20% which in reality is 5 million unvaccinated people. For comparison Victoria has a total population of just on 7 million. million.

If these 5 million people suffer a Covid death rate of only 5% then this 20% means that 250,000 people will die.

If only 2% die then it means that 100,000 people will die.
I am amazed and horrified that this attrition rate seems acceptable to those leading the country at all levels.

I have not projected numbers for hospitalisations and Intensive care/ventilator use but as you can see from the above examples the numbers will be mindbogglingly overwhelming.

[bob10]

I think once vaccines have been given to every one who wants one, then yes society will accept a higher death rate if it is seen as impacting primarily on those who choose not to get vaccinated.

Very much like we accept high death rates from smoking (and many other preventable causes) as we rationalise this as being about personal choice.

At some point the public will decide (not the politicians) and the increasing levels of protesting and defiance is a sign that this is already starting.

That point is moot. Their is no personal choice in not having access to a vaccine. Society will not accept the death of children unnecessarily. I know the point of view of some one who has suffered through lockdown and restrictions time after time could be clouded by the experience, and the frustrations felt would run deep. But opening up too early under a flawed plan would be a huge mistake.

[bob10]

OK, who knows about vaccinations using VLP's. [ virus like particles] The University of the Sunshine Coast is looking for volunteers for a world first clinical trial of a potential vaccine produced by the American company Icosavax. Licenced VLP vaccines are well known to induce a robust and durable immune response, thay can also be directed against new COVID strains as they emerge. The Human Papillomavirus , developed by Australian Professor Ian Fraser, is a commonly used VLP-based vaccine. The study will be conducted from sites at Sippy Downs and Morayfield. More details about the trial will be provided during Tuesday.

Qlders to road test new type of COVID jab (msn.com) (https://www.msn.com/en-au/health/medical/qlders-to-road-test-new-type-of-covid-jab/ar-AANCEEz?ocid=msedgntp)

[Tote]

That may be a little harsh. Delta got out of control in NSW, but it wasn't a deliberate act by the NSW government trying to prove their philosophy worked the best. It did work, with Alpha. Delta is a different beast. But because delta is a different beast, the Doherty report mandating 70% of adults vaccinated as the start point for opening up is proving to be a flawed concept. Overseas , Israel and now the UK have found it just doesn't work that way. Now the " best health advice " overseas is saying 90 % of the Population vaccinated [ children included] is the magic number. Does any one really know? The whole World seems to be playing catch up with delta.

I just would like to have a word about the border problems with Qld and the Tweed. I think the problem is in the nomenclature. Saying they want to shift the border south is of course going to cause consternation in NSW, with the inference being NSW can't control their border. No government can tolerate that. What they really mean is the check points must be moved south, in order to allow the Tweed residents direct access to their jobs in Qld. Give the NSW Police direct control over those checkpoints, with assistance from the Qld Police if requested , or better still use those ADF members swanning around Western Sydney, under NSW Police supervision, and employ them doing an actual worthwhile job.

The Qld government, with NSW's permission could set up mobile testing in strategic spots in the Tweed, and next to them mobile vaccination points. Then mandate every worker crossing into Qld must have at least the first jab, and must have a negative test result. Qld Police would still have the responsibility of deciding who crosses into Qld, the people from the Tweed get to go to work, and NSW still has sovereignty over their border. In other words , putting it crudely, no one has a bigger dick than any one else and peoples sensitivities that make them readily offended and shocked can be met. Why is it so hard? Why are governments still playing politics with this pandemic in Australia?

I agree, particularly with the rephrasing of border movement to checkpoint movement, thats what they did in Albury during the last outbreak and it worked well, but I'm afraid its unlikely to happen this time :-(

Regards,
Tote

[DiscoDB]

That point is moot. Their is no personal choice in not having access to a vaccine. Society will not accept the death of children unnecessarily. I know the point of view of some one who has suffered through lockdown and restrictions time after time could be clouded by the experience, and the frustrations felt would run deep. But opening up too early under a flawed plan would be a huge mistake.

…hence why I said once vaccines have been given to every one who wants one.

Hopefully this is at least 90% of those eligible - but to expect fully vaccinated people to accept ongoing lockdowns is not going to happen.

A tipping point in the debate is coming, and politicians are already reading the polling data.

[NavyDiver]

…hence why I said once vaccines have been given to every one who wants one.

Hopefully this is at least 90% of those eligible - but to expect fully vaccinated people to accept ongoing lockdowns is not going to happen.

A tipping point in the debate is coming, and politicians are already reading the polling data.

I agree we have to evolve. The Pandemic is now Endemic and we move with it of course.

The 1000 + dead in the US yesterday shows how not to do it. Vaccine should be first I think. Watching Canada with 26768+ over all dead and their " national 7-day average of 2,216 new cases reported daily (Aug 13-19) ..an increase of 38%" shows a rather nasty bit as " 83% of people aged 12 years or older have received at least one dose of COVID-19 vaccine and 74% are now fully vaccinated"
Canada is in some ways very similar to us- Except that glazier feed freezing cold water which froze me once[biggrin]

We will reopen. It will see carnage for a time. A lot less than if we opened before we get over 80%.

[vnx205]

I understand why it suits politicians to misrepresent the views of their opposition, but it would be disappointing if that practice spread to our forum.

People who advocate lockdowns are generally not arguing we should employ them "forever" (as a certain politician has said). Most of them mean we use them just as much as is necessary to get things under control.

Conversely those who oppose them generally don't mean we "let it rip" with no restrictions whatsoever. Most of them mean that we should only employ the minimum number of restrictions needed to stop things getting out of hand.

The claim that the other side is advocating either all or nothing is a lazy, dishonest argument.

Some politicians and some of the general public seem unaware that there are such things as moderation, subtlety, nuance, and compromise.

[bob10]

I agree, particularly with the rephrasing of border movement to checkpoint movement, thats what they did in Albury during the last outbreak and it worked well, but I'm afraid its unlikely to happen this time :-(

Regards,
Tote

Yes it seemed so obvious. It's the people of the Tweed who suffer over this intransigence.

[bob10]

I agree we have to evolve. The Pandemic is now Endemic and we move with it of course.

The 1000 + dead in the US yesterday shows how not to do it. Vaccine should be first I think. Watching Canada with 26768+ over all dead and their " national 7-day average of 2,216 new cases reported daily (Aug 13-19) ..an increase of 38%" shows a rather nasty bit as " 83% of people aged 12 years or older have received at least one dose of COVID-19 vaccine and 74% are now fully vaccinated"
Canada is in some ways very similar to us- Except that glazier feed freezing cold water which froze me once[biggrin]

We will reopen. It will see carnage for a time. A lot less than if we opened before we get over 80%.

Still that mythical creature of 80%. Do you mean 80% of all our population, children included or just 8o% of eligible adults?

[Homestar]

Still that mythical creature of 80%. Do you mean 80% of all our population, children included or just 8o% of eligible adults?

The number being quoted by most pollies is 80% of eligible population.

I think once that number is hit non compliance will be pretty much impossible to quell as most people are getting quite edgy about the lockdowns. They’ll make the call based on where their popularity is when that number gets close. If it starts dropping quickly, they’ll open up to save their own necks.

[bob10]

The number being quoted by most pollies is 80% of eligible population.

I think once that number is hit non compliance will be pretty much impossible to quell as most people are getting quite edgy about the lockdowns. They’ll make the call based on where their popularity is when that number gets close. If it starts dropping quickly, they’ll open up to save their own necks.

All indications are Qld will resist opening up too early, without proper restrictions in place, will still rely on targeted lockdowns, and closure of the border, under the advice of the CHO, as per the Constitution. Our CHO has said she thinks 90% is the target we should be aiming for, if so, a long way to go yet here, not quite 50 % ATM I believe.

[windsock]

173061

A map of the locations of all known close contacts who are supposed to be self-isolating. From Covid-19: Heat map shows spread of close contacts isolating across New Zealand | Stuff.co.nz (https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/300389854/covid19-heat-map-shows-spread-of-close-contacts-isolating-across-new-zealand)

I don't think Level 4 lock down is going to be ending early for many of us any time soon. Auckland's lock down was extended to 31 Aug yesterday and the rest of us are under level 4 until at least this Friday when reviews of the numbers of cases will dictate any change in lock down levels. The reason it is this Friday is that it would be effective in showing up actual cases developed pre-lock down and therefore give a picture of the extent of the problem. Numbers are expected to rise until then. So far 99 are in Auckland and eight in Wellington with no other known cases anywhere else and no waste water testing positive any where else either. There were 21 on Sunday and 35 yesterday.

[bob10]

I understand why it suits politicians to misrepresent the views of their opposition, but it would be disappointing if that practice spread to our forum.

People who advocate lockdowns are generally not arguing we should employ them "forever" (as a certain politician has said). Most of them mean we use them just as much as is necessary to get things under control.

Conversely those who oppose them generally don't mean we "let it rip" with no restrictions whatsoever. Most of them mean that we should only employ the minimum number of restrictions needed to stop things getting out of hand.

The claim that the other side is advocating either all or nothing is a lazy, dishonest argument.

Some politicians and some of the general public seem unaware that there are such things as moderation, subtlety, nuance, and compromise.

Here is the Doherty report to Government. I find this interesting;

When defining overall target coverage thresholds for the eligible population, it is vital to consider the distribution of doses received across all age categories, which will impact on population level outcomes of the program in different ways:• Older individuals are more likely to experience severe disease outcomes, making them an early priority group for vaccine protection in Australia’s COVID-19 vaccine rollout;• Young and working age adults are peak transmitters of COVID-19. Increasing the proportional coverage in these groups will have a greater impact to reduce transmission.

DohertyModelling_NationalPlan_and_Addendum_2021081 0.pdf (https://www.doherty.edu.au/uploads/content_doc/DohertyModelling_NationalPlan_and_Addendum_2021081 0.pdf)

[bob10]

Proof the National surveillance program ie the testing of truck drivers every 7 days is working. Two truck drivers in Qld tested positive, but because of the National program, they are not considered a risk to Qld.

Queensland records six new cases of COVID-19, two truck drivers under investigation (msn.com) (https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/brisbane/queensland-records-six-new-cases-of-covid-19-two-truck-drivers-under-investigation/ar-AANEt43?ocid=msedgntp)

[101RRS]

Yes it seemed so obvious. It's the people of the Tweed who suffer over this intransigence.

Just move the border north to above the Gold Coast and make everything south part of NSW - all solved [thumbsupbig].

[Homestar]

Just move the border north to above the Gold Coast and make everything south part of NSW - all solved [thumbsupbig].

Or move the border South of Byron Bay and make everything North part of Qld. [biggrin]

[ramblingboy42]

Just move the border north to above the Gold Coast and make everything south part of NSW - all solved [thumbsupbig].

nooooo......then they'll want to bring in daylight saving.

[101RRS]

All indications are Qld will resist opening up too early, without proper restrictions in place, will still rely on targeted lockdowns, and closure of the border, under the advice of the CHO, as per the Constitution. Our CHO has said she thinks 90% is the target we should be aiming for, if so, a long way to go yet here, not quite 50 % ATM I believe.

Well why did your Premier agree in National Cabinet?

[101RRS]

Or move the border South of Byron Bay and make everything North part of Qld. [biggrin]

Nah not a good idea - my idea is better [thumbsupbig]

[bob10]

Just move the border north to above the Gold Coast and make everything south part of NSW - all solved [thumbsupbig].

There goes the thread, thought this was supposed to be a serious discussion. Where are you 4BEE?

[bob10]

Well why did your Premier agree in National Cabinet?

The National Cabinet agreement was predicated on 30 cases. You haven't been paying attention.

[Eevo]

…hence why I said once vaccines have been given to every one who wants one.

Hopefully this is at least 90% of those eligible - but to expect fully vaccinated people to accept ongoing lockdowns is not going to happen.

A tipping point in the debate is coming, and politicians are already reading the polling data.

nail on the head mate.
and if people want to keep themselves isolated and locked down, there is nothing stopping them. if people want to continue wearing a mask, people can do that too.
manage your own risk.

[Tombie]

The National Cabinet agreement was predicated on 30 cases. You haven't been paying attention.

The last sentence is completely unnecessary.
Stop the veiled jabs…

[NavyDiver]

Still that mythical creature of 80%. Do you mean 80% of all our population, children included or just 8o% of eligible adults?

I hope 100% of everyone myself Bob. We cannot do Kids until at least Feb 2022. The Political types are making that choice an decisions widely known now. I agree that is frightening at several levels for under 15 today and probably only under 12 shortly!

The vaccine skeptics and antis will like in the US now be confronted by their own ill informed decision. A minutes silence then Darwin Award nomination I feel [bigwhistle]

I do not want to see people dying to prove their point!

Almost needed a change of pants at the Border moves ideas Gents. Ripsnorter [thumbsupbig]

[101RRS]

The National Cabinet agreement was predicated on 30 cases. You haven't been paying attention.

Yes paying attention. Doherty have said "Reopening the country despite high numbers of new infections will be safe when Australia reaches its vaccine target of 70 to 80 per cent, the head of the Doherty Institute says."

Doherty Institute director says reopening the country is safe once 70-80 per cent COVID vaccination rate achieved - ABC News (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-08-24/head-of-doherty-institute-covid19-nsw-vaccine-vic-scott-morrison/100401082)

[101RRS]

There goes the thread, thought this was supposed to be a serious discussion. Where are you 4BEE?

It is a serious discussion albeit with a humorous twist as couple of people have picked up on and seem to enjoy.

Why is it still serious - well Qld suggested moving the border south - fair enough but the same result would be achieved if the border was moved north - result is people in the real border area, on both sides, can still go about their business.

[V8Ian]

Regardless of where or if the border were moved, people are going to be inconvenienced. The Gold Coast to Brisbane is a busy commuter corridor for workers. The logistical and legal ramifications of moving the border south are not insignificant.
I believe the requests and denials are political posturing to garner brownie points. I doubt there was any serious contemplation of such a move.

[SBD4]

The National Cabinet agreement was predicated on 30 cases. You haven't been paying attention.

The head of the Doherty Institute clarified that point saying that the number is irrelevant:

Australia COVID: Doherty Institute’s Sharon Lewin says reopening still safe with hundreds of daily cases (https://www.smh.com.au/politics/federal/doherty-institute-boss-says-reopening-still-safe-with-hundreds-of-daily-covid-cases-20210823-p58lah.html)


“The really big important issue about moving from phase A to phase B is that we’re moving out of an environment of zero-COVID,” she told the ABC’s The Drum program on Monday evening. “Zero-COVID is no longer the goal once you have 70 to 80 per cent of people vaccinated. Whether you start at 30 cases or 800 cases you can still open up safely.”

The article also explains the change in strategy for health interventions, testing and tracing. It allows a rebalancing of resources.

People seem to think that there is going to be a free for all. That's not the case and no one has said anything of the sort. There will continue to be restrictions but hopefully without the number and severity of lock downs we've experienced so far.

It's apparent that some think that our governments can continue support the country through the current arrangements forever without any repercussions. The capacity of our governments to support our communities and our businesses to sustain themselves under these circumstances is finite. If we don't move ahead in some way, we risk sending our nation backwards at a great rate of knots.

Personally I see this as an opportunity to find a pathway to doing this well. Opening up in such a way that makes sure people don't get left behind, allowing our communities to get back to work and looking out for each other. Rightly or wrongly I prefer to be optimistic about this.

[BradC]

if people want to continue wearing a mask, people can do that too.
manage your own risk.

This is the problem though, wearing a mask isn't managing your own risk, it's managing the risk you pose to others. Those rabidly against mask wearing also seem to exhibit the sort of behaviour that makes them a risk to others and pay little attention to the welfare of others, so that's a no-win really.

[Eevo]

This is the problem though, wearing a mask isn't managing your own risk, it's managing the risk you pose to others. Those rabidly against mask wearing also seem to exhibit the sort of behaviour that makes them a risk to others and pay little attention to the welfare of others, so that's a no-win really.

its both as far as im aware. its protecting you and me.

Do Face Masks Actually Protect Me, Or Just Those Around Me? – Cleveland Clinic (https://health.clevelandclinic.org/do-face-masks-actually-protect-me-or-just-those-around-me/)
Will a face mask protect me from COVID-19? | Queensland Health (https://www.health.qld.gov.au/news-events/news/will-a-face-mask-protect-me-from-covid-19)

[BradC]

its both as far as im aware. its protecting you and me.

Unless it's a properly fitted N95 it's doing sfa for you.

[DiscoMick]

There are about 6 million children under 12, I read. They would be most of the 20% not included in the 80%. Anti-vaxer adults would only be a small number.
Unprotected children would be most of the fatalities if we opened up prematurely. So adults who were mostly vaccinated would be deciding to open up despite the risk of thousands of unprotected children, including their own, becoming sick and dying.
Doesn't sound like a good situation to me.

[101RRS]

Unless it's a properly fitted N95 it's doing sfa for you.

I would agree there - I have been using the cheap disposable masks with the stiffen top to fit snug around the nose and cheeks - work reasonably well with little of my breath escaping around the sides and my glasses do not fog up so a good sign the mask is actually sealing.

Wanted a washable cloth type and found one that had replaceable filters - hmm these must be good so I buy one and three filters - utter crap - unlike the cheap disposable ones there is nothing to seal around the nose and the filters are too dense to allow air to pass through - the result is that when you breathe out the air just goes up and out the top not through the filter - glasses are completely fogged up.

N95 masks are the way to go but at about $5 for a single use mask the cost is a bit much - so I will stay with the blue single use masks at about 50c-80c each. Clearly not as good as N95, but much better than cloth masks.

Oh and have you noticed how the grubs are now just throwing used masks on the ground instead of the bin or somewhere else safe and sound.

[DiscoMick]

Yes, I picked up a couple while mowing which had just been thrown on the roadside outside our place. Grubs!

[W&KO]

Proof the National surveillance program ie the testing of truck drivers every 7 days is working. Two truck drivers in Qld tested positive, but because of the National program, they are not considered a risk to Qld.

Queensland records six new cases of COVID-19, two truck drivers under investigation (msn.com) (https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/brisbane/queensland-records-six-new-cases-of-covid-19-two-truck-drivers-under-investigation/ar-AANEt43?ocid=msedgntp)

Not considered a risk…..yet

Not many realise that drivers and essential workers crossing the border are having two COVID tests per week to ensure they always comply.

Something our employees are dreading once our approval to cross the border daily is approved.

[SBD4]

There are about 6 million children under 12, I read. They would be most of the 20% not included in the 80%. Anti-vaxer adults would only be a small number.
Unprotected children would be most of the fatalities if we opened up prematurely. So adults who were mostly vaccinated would be deciding to open up despite the risk of thousands of unprotected children, including their own, becoming sick and dying.
Doesn't sound like a good situation to me.

In 2019 ABS has the population of children(0-14yo) at 18.7% of total population. Using our current population of about 26M, this would put the number of children at 4.862M. Extrapolating that to get the number of children 0-12yo would put the number roughly at 4.16M.

I don't think it is as cut and dry as you are making out.

The deaths that are occurring now are not in the younger age groups.

Hopefully the parents and relatives of said children are of the responsible kind and are themselves vaccinated which would afford the children some level of protection. Also, keep in mind the example of the party in Sydney where all the unvaccinated people caught the virus but the vaccinated did not. If the children are largely surrounded by vaccinated people then they would be afforded some level of protection.

I think the bigger concern for children is how the disease will affect them in the long term.

[Eevo]

COVID-19 deaths by age group and sex | Australian Government Department of Health (https://www.health.gov.au/resources/covid-19-deaths-by-age-group-and-sex)

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[Grumbles]

deaths by age group and sex (https://www.health.gov.au/resources/covid-19-deaths-by-age-group-and-sex)

Hmmm.....death by sex.......Got any pics? [wink11][bigsmile1]

[4bee]

Hmmm.....death by sex.......Got any pics? [wink11][bigsmile1]



Pictures be damned. I'll wait for the Video, Ta very.:Rolling:.

[Tote]

I would agree there - I have been using the cheap disposable masks with the stiffen top to fit snug around the nose and cheeks - work reasonably well with little of my breath escaping around the sides and my glasses do not fog up so a good sign the mask is actually sealing.

Wanted a washable cloth type and found one that had replaceable filters - hmm these must be good so I buy one and three filters - utter crap - unlike the cheap disposable ones there is nothing to seal around the nose and the filters are too dense to allow air to pass through - the result is that when you breathe out the air just goes up and out the top not through the filter - glasses are completely fogged up.

N95 masks are the way to go but at about $5 for a single use mask the cost is a bit much - so I will stay with the blue single use masks at about 50c-80c each. Clearly not as good as N95, but much better than cloth masks.

Oh and have you noticed how the grubs are now just throwing used masks on the ground instead of the bin or somewhere else safe and sound.

If I get to return to the office in the next few weeks its likely that I'll be wearing a mask all day, a bit of googling resulted in a box of these suckers on their way Aussie Pharma Direct - Australian made products (https://www.aussiepharmadirect.com.au/) I doubt I could put up with either the cheapies or the cloth ones for much more than an hour at a stretch. I'll let you know how they go.

Regards,
Tote

[Tote]

Hmmm.....death by sex.......Got any pics? [wink11][bigsmile1]

Episode 3, series one of Futurama has all the information you need - Death by snu-snu

Regards,
Tote

[Arapiles]

173061

A map of the locations of all known close contacts who are supposed to be self-isolating. From Covid-19: Heat map shows spread of close contacts isolating across New Zealand | Stuff.co.nz (https://www.stuff.co.nz/national/health/coronavirus/300389854/covid19-heat-map-shows-spread-of-close-contacts-isolating-across-new-zealand)

I don't think Level 4 lock down is going to be ending early for many of us any time soon. Auckland's lock down was extended to 31 Aug yesterday and the rest of us are under level 4 until at least this Friday when reviews of the numbers of cases will dictate any change in lock down levels. The reason it is this Friday is that it would be effective in showing up actual cases developed pre-lock down and therefore give a picture of the extent of the problem. Numbers are expected to rise until then. So far 99 are in Auckland and eight in Wellington with no other known cases anywhere else and no waste water testing positive any where else either. There were 21 on Sunday and 35 yesterday.


One of the ironies of controlling Covid is that by being able to live a pretty normal life, when it does get in it spreads widely and quickly.

I was in Sydney a couple of months ago and I and a colleague from Melbourne recoiled from getting into a packed lift with some clients and colleagues, but my Sydney colleagues piled in and started chiacking us for not getting in with them. The thing is that in Melbourne our office lifts are still max three people and that was left in place as a precaution even when we were out of lockdown.

[windsock]

One of the ironies of controlling Covid is that by being able to live a pretty normal life, when it does get in it spreads widely and quickly.

I was in Sydney a couple of months ago and I and a colleague from Melbourne recoiled from getting into a packed lift with some clients and colleagues, but my Sydney colleagues piled in and started chiacking us for not getting in with them. The thing is that in Melbourne our office lifts are still max three people and that was left in place as a precaution even when we were out of lockdown.

Yes, I agree. The irony is strong... I could see complacency out there at many levels. I still scanned in everywhere I went but as I was each time, always there were others walking right past without doing so... Large gathering happening as if nothing was happening out in the world.

Did you see my post back a few pages about the two conferences... Covid Mk ll (https://www.aulro.com/afvb/general-chat/287479-covid-mk-ll-post3104405.html#post3104405) It may explain quite a few of the dots outside of Auckland.

[DiscoMick]

It could be worse. The DIL has to wear full PPE with mask all day. Gets quite uncomfortable.

[Tombie]

It could be worse. The DIL has to wear full PPE with mask all day. Gets quite uncomfortable.

Agree 100%

If a bit of PPE is uncomfortable, stop and look at what others deal with and consider yourself lucky.

[Grumbles]

Episode 3, series one of Futurama has all the information you need - Death by snu-snu

Regards,
Tote

I must lead a sheltered life because I had no idea what you were talking about and had to google Futurama and snu-snu.

[bob10]

Feeling a little more confident in the Doherty plan, when it was explained this morning by the head of the Doherty Institute. It was never meant that restrictions would be fully eased, with large numbers of cases. the optimal number is when the R number is kept below 1. Tracing, testing , isolation and quarantine will still be carried out, with lock downs an option if the R number goes above 1. However, it can still be implemented with large numbers of cases, if you are willing to have large numbers in hospital [ and the report is Sydney hospitals are ramping up with covid cases right now. ] and large numbers of deaths.

The feeling is the numbers in NSW are peaking, and we may see a drop in cases over the next week. If NSW can get cases down , and that R number is close to 1, this nightmare may be turning around. There still needs to be serious debate over the 70-80 % number, children should be included, IMO, and there are still serious questions about the modelling for the Doherty Plan from some leading epidemiologists which need to be addressed. However, if the government provides clear and concise explanations about where we are heading, which has been lacking, and if all the political games are stopped, we should make some positive progress . Some information here;

Doherty Institute modelling and what NSW's outbreak means for Australia (thenewdaily.com.au) (https://thenewdaily.com.au/news/politics/australian-politics/2021/08/25/doherty-institute-modelling-nsw/?utm_source=Adestra&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Morning%20News%20-%2020210825)

[Tombie]

There were a couple of USA based articles on the hesitancy to go to giving under 12s the jab without further research.

I’ve lost the links when my phone updated so will try to locate them again.

From memory it was around understanding what impacts mRNA changes may have on younger humans, and to ensure it doesn’t have any unwanted repercussions.

I’m thinking this is a good thing for the moment.

[bob10]

Looks like a false dawn , over 900 cases in NSW , one death. Bit early, the numbers at the end of the month will tell.

[Arapiles]

. And a sign of things to come, if we don't get it right. The Philippines largest public hospital has been so overwhelmed by a continuous stream of COVID patients that it temporarily stopped accepting patients at its Emergency Room. The hospitals decision came a day after the Health Dept. reported 18,332 new cases on monday.



Tokyo hospitals aren't accepting Covid patients unless seriously ill, so it's likely that people are dying at home - one of the surprising things that's come out of this pandemic is the realisation that Tokyo simply doesn't have enough hospital beds for 34 million people. Unlike here they also don't have a network of GPs who deal with most non-serious issues - in Tokyo, any time that you have any medical issue, no matter how trivial, you typically go to the nearest hospital and queue for a couple of hours to see someone. As a result the big teaching hospitals are incredibly busy on any normal day, so they'd be quickly overwhelmed during a pandemic.

The last time I was in Tokyo I had to take an ambulance ride (at 5.00am Christmas Day ... ) but whilst the ambulance guys were great it took them about 20 minutes to find a hospital in that zone that would admit me - whilst that was largely because I was a foreigner and the hospitals were worried about me skipping off without paying, I did notice that there weren't that many options given the population size. The place I ended up was crap and didn't have the required specialists available in any case. I asked to be transferred to a nearby hospital that I'd been going to for the last 30 year but the ambos couldn't do it because it was in a different zone - so I walked out and took a taxi to that hospital, where I did get good care.

[NavyDiver]

Tokyo hospitals aren't accepting Covid patients unless seriously ill, so it's likely that people are dying at home - one of the surprising things that's come out of this pandemic is the realisation that Tokyo simply doesn't have enough hospital beds for 34 million people. Unlike here they also don't have a network of GPs who deal with most non-serious issues - in Tokyo, any time that you have any medical issue, no matter how trivial, you typically go to the nearest hospital and queue for a couple of hours to see someone. As a result the big teaching hospitals are incredibly busy on any normal day, so they'd be quickly overwhelmed during a pandemic.

The last time I was in Tokyo I had to take an ambulance ride (at 5.00am Christmas Day ... ) but whilst the ambulance guys were great it took them about 20 minutes to find a hospital in that zone that would admit me - whilst that was largely because I was a foreigner and the hospitals were worried about me skipping off without paying, I did notice that there weren't that many options given the population size. The place I ended up was crap and didn't have the required specialists available in any case. I asked to be transferred to a nearby hospital that I'd been going to for the last 30 year but the ambos couldn't do it because it was in a different zone - so I walked out and took a taxi to that hospital, where I did get good care.

Our hospital beds are limited, our hospital staff are limited and rather exhausted. Vic is trying to bring in 300 ish from Overseas. Not sure where from?

On the bright side soon I may not have to pay for your band aids and some other Doctors might be lending a hand thankfully as I know a lot who are not. News today
"Vaccine Merchandise
Vaccine providers will soon receive a package of COVID-19 vaccine merchandise. This will include
posters, band-aids and stickers in ‘Arm Yourself’ branding." [biggrin][biggrin][biggrin][biggrin]

PS in that email it did include sort of official notification of the 16-39 year olds at last

[bob10]

Tokyo hospitals aren't accepting Covid patients unless seriously ill, so it's likely that people are dying at home - one of the surprising things that's come out of this pandemic is the realisation that Tokyo simply doesn't have enough hospital beds for 34 million people. Unlike here they also don't have a network of GPs who deal with most non-serious issues - in Tokyo, any time that you have any medical issue, no matter how trivial, you typically go to the nearest hospital and queue for a couple of hours to see someone. As a result the big teaching hospitals are incredibly busy on any normal day, so they'd be quickly overwhelmed during a pandemic.

The last time I was in Tokyo I had to take an ambulance ride (at 5.00am Christmas Day ... ) but whilst the ambulance guys were great it took them about 20 minutes to find a hospital in that zone that would admit me - whilst that was largely because I was a foreigner and the hospitals were worried about me skipping off without paying, I did notice that there weren't that many options given the population size. The place I ended up was crap and didn't have the required specialists available in any case. I asked to be transferred to a nearby hospital that I'd been going to for the last 30 year but the ambos couldn't do it because it was in a different zone - so I walked out and took a taxi to that hospital, where I did get good care.

A disturbing plea from Sydney Ambo's highlights just what you say. Anyone experiencing breathlessness , chest pain or dizziness must call an ambulance, after a young mother with COVID-19 died at home on Monday. Sydney lung specialist Dr Lucy Morgan said " If you have COVID, and you feel breathless, have trouble breathing , and are feeling dizzy, you need to call an ambulance." " Don't ring up and make a GP appointment, call an ambulance because these kinds of symptoms & signs tell me that the COVID-19 illness is progressing, and progressing quickly."

Emergency ambulance callouts usually cost $ 400 without insurance in NSW, but health authorities have confirmed covid patients are not being charged.

Dr Morgan outlined the next steps as patients deteriorate. Patients get increasingly restless, and need further medical intervention as their oxygen levels drop, and if necessary, a ventilator will do the breathing for them. That is the point at which some one in hospital having care for covid-19 may require intensive care therapy, a machine to do the reading for you, a machine to possibly support the blood, and to do the work of organs in your body.[ Any one who says covid is just like the flu is crazy]

The full story here;

'Do not delay': Disturbing warning for NSW virus cases | The New Daily (https://thenewdaily.com.au/news/2021/08/25/nsw-ambulance-covid/?utm_source=Adestra&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=PM%20Extra%20-%2020210825)

[Eevo]

Dr Morgan outlined the next steps as patients deteriorate. Patients get increasingly restless, and need further medical intervention as their oxygen levels drop, and if necessary, a ventilator will do the breathing for them. That is the point at which some one in hospital having care for covid-19 may require intensive care therapy, a machine to do the reading for you, a machine to possibly support the blood, and to do the work of organs in your body.[ Any one who says covid is just like the flu is crazy]

The full story here;

'Do not delay': Disturbing warning for NSW virus cases | The New Daily (https://thenewdaily.com.au/news/2021/08/25/nsw-ambulance-covid/?utm_source=Adestra&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=PM%20Extra%20-%2020210825)

actually, Acute respiratory distress is common to both covid and the flu. so people who say covid is just like the flu would be correct in this instance.

[350RRC]

actually, Acute respiratory distress is common to both covid and the flu. so people who say covid is just like the flu would be correct in this instance.

5 times more contagious and 10 times more lethal when infected in the delta era..............

A pathetic comparison using one symptomatic response.

Acute respiratory distress is common to asthmatics........... is that like covid?

DL

[Eevo]

5 times more contagious and 10 times more lethal when infected in the delta era..............

A pathetic comparison using one symptomatic response.

Acute respiratory distress is common to asthmatics........... is that like covid?

DL
what do you think "in this instance" means?

[350RRC]

what do you think "in this instance" means?

A distraction from the matter at hand?

[4bee]

Agree 100%

If a bit of PPE is uncomfortable, stop and look at what others deal with and consider yourself lucky.


Hard Hat, Hi Vis & heavy boots should be a doddle for you Mike. Yes yes, I have peeked through your Site Office Window.[bighmmm]:Rolling:

[Eevo]

A distraction from the matter at hand?
i feel like im being trolled.

[350RRC]

i feel like im being trolled.

I'm too lazy to engage in recreational fishing.

My 14 yo dog is dying tonight...... some have met him, not in the mood for crap.

DL

[Eevo]

I'm too lazy to engage in recreational fishing.

My 14 yo dog is dying tonight...... some have met him, not in the mood for crap.

DL
go be with ur dog.

[350RRC]

go be with ur dog.

I am, all I got.

[Arapiles]

A disturbing plea from Sydney Ambo's highlights just what you say. Anyone experiencing breathlessness , chest pain or dizziness must call an ambulance, after a young mother with COVID-19 died at home on Monday. Sydney lung specialist Dr Lucy Morgan said " If you have COVID, and you feel breathless, have trouble breathing , and are feeling dizzy, you need to call an ambulance." " Don't ring up and make a GP appointment, call an ambulance because these kinds of symptoms & signs tell me that the COVID-19 illness is progressing, and progressing quickly."


Apparently with younger people, for some reason it's mild and stable and then deteriorates very, very quickly - this is why in China there were people dying in their homes and on the streets.