Who else is going over to the dark side?

[Deefa]

G'day all,
After owning my much loved defender for 15 years (2002 td5 110) i am considering moving it on and replacing it with.... ? . I must not be the only one.
Our Defender s are now all getting on in age and getting less reliable. The amount of time I spend on the old girl is just getting silly. I will clarify that I always do my own maintenance from head replacement to rebuild the gearbox as well as all the other smaller service items. I am probably too fussy to own a defender as I like everything right.
Unfortunately landrover do not make anything new that would do what I want of it ,and they are justy to expensive. Don't get me wrong the new defender is a great car but not in the way that the old defender was. I just can't see what is the difference between a defender or a discovery anymore?

So what vehicle to buy new or near new that can do what the old defender was good at?

In my opinion the old defender was good at the following:

:Unpretentious ultalatarion looks that are timeless. Most people would not know the difference between a county built in 1984 and a 2016 model.

:Fantastic off road ability that was easily increased many times by modifications. And this was done mechanically not with tech.
My defender has lockers and long shocks for flex as well as lower low range gearing and I use it in the bush a lot.

:The ability to make stuff and bolt it to it easily. You could make anything you like from campers to military conversions of all kinds. I can't see a new defender being cut up and fitting a machine gun in the roof!

:Most things being able to be repaired with fencing wire and a bit of ingenuity, at least in theory.

:Room in the back for a few bails of hay or some bags of cement and your crowbar without worry about damaging the trim.

Yes we all know their shortcomings which are many. The biggest has always been they were underpowered, every model had small engines overstressed apart from the 3.9 Isuzu or the V8 which is still underpowered.

Anyway over to you guys what is the next best affordable replacement vehicle that does some of the above?

[Gav 110]

G'day all,
After owning my much loved defender for 15 years (2002 td5 110) i am considering moving it on and replacing it with.... ? . I must not be the only one.
Our Defender s are now all getting on in age and getting less reliable. The amount of time I spend on the old girl is just getting silly. I will clarify that I always do my own maintenance from head replacement to rebuild the gearbox as well as all the other smaller service items. I am probably too fussy to own a defender as I like everything right.
Unfortunately landrover do not make anything new that would do what I want of it ,and they are justy to expensive. Don't get me wrong the new defender is a great car but not in the way that the old defender was. I just can't see what is the difference between a defender or a discovery anymore?

So what vehicle to buy new or near new that can do what the old defender was good at?

In my opinion the old defender was good at the following:

:Unpretentious ultalatarion looks that are timeless. Most people would not know the difference between a county built in 1984 and a 2016 model.

:Fantastic off road ability that was easily increased many times by modifications. And this was done mechanically not with tech.
My defender has lockers and long shocks for flex as well as lower low range gearing and I use it in the bush a lot.

:The ability to make stuff and bolt it to it easily. You could make anything you like from campers to military conversions of all kinds. I can't see a new defender being cut up and fitting a machine gun in the roof!

:Most things being able to be repaired with fencing wire and a bit of ingenuity, at least in theory.

:Room in the back for a few bails of hay or some bags of cement and your crowbar without worry about damaging the trim.

Yes we all know their shortcomings which are many. The biggest has always been they were underpowered, every model had small engines overstressed apart from the 3.9 Isuzu or the V8 which is still underpowered.

Anyway over to you guys what is the next best affordable replacement vehicle that does some of the above?

What about spending some dollars on the old defender
I’m sure the fifty plus grand you intend to spend on another make of inappropriate vehicle could turn the td5 Defender into a pumping 3.9 turbo lifted locked (and whatever else you can imagine) DEFENDER

And I believe you would enjoy it more over the next 15 years!!!

[emoji481][emoji481][emoji481]
Gav

[Tote]

What about spending some dollars on the old defender
I’m sure the fifty plus grand you intend to spend on another make of inappropriate vehicle could turn the td5 Defender into a pumping 3.9 turbo lifted locked (and whatever else you can imagine) DEFENDER

And I believe you would enjoy it more over the next 15 years!!!

[emoji481][emoji481][emoji481]
Gav

Ineos grenadier or a 79 series cruiser, got a spare 100 K plus? that would make a Defender very reliable but best be quick if you want the Tojo with a v8....

Regards,
Tote

[Baytown]

If I were in the market for a Defender (ish) vehicle, I’d be looking into the Grenadier without failure. They really impress me.

That being said, I’m also warming big time to the new Defender (wish it had a different name) 110. Comfort, capability and modern everything. Just ditch the fake internal bolts/rivets or what ever they are suppose to be!

Silly pretentiousness.

[Deefa]

On a trip at the moment in western Queensland. Lucky we are out of lockdown. She has blown a head gasket so im not happy with her at the moment. I put a new AMC head on it two years ago so why that has happened I'm not sure. Hopefully I haven't ruined the new head.

Just sick of doing the same job over and over. Like freeking oil leaks , it never ends.

[scarry]

We looked for well over 12 months before replacing the D4 with a LC200,luckily we got in before the prices went stupid.
LR had nothing that suited us,the new Defender was close,but the rear load area was way to small,and i never buy the first of any model run.No proper Bull bars or cargo barriers was also an issue.
The 200 has been great no issues so far at all.

The son replaced his Puma with a LC76,its done around 60000km,and no issues,he loves it.
Huge step up from the Deefer in many ways,but the ride isnt as good,as noted by others.

Same as the 200,it doesnt have the ride or handling of the D4,not much beats EAS and IS on all corners.
But in many other areas its as good as,if not better,and suits our needs.

[JoshV12345]

I love my defender - it’s interesting. Like all the best cars made they are not the most reliable but they are awesome to drive and look at. Alternatives just seem boring in comparison.

After driving land cruisers, patrols, hilux, defenders just have that ‘thing’ that makes you feel something.

However, it does have that worry - will it break down this trip. Always in the back of your mind. Will that rover diff be up to it this time? Will my fuel pump die? Will my head gasket blow? You don’t ask these questions in many other cars. That will be the reason I will sell. While any car can have failures, it is definitely less likely in a Toyota. I know people say it’s all down to maintenance, but I think it speaks for itself, go outback and most of the cars are Toyota’s. Land Rover really missed an opportunity to make the new defender a more reliable old defender similar to a 70 series but more interesting.

[dromader driver]

Looking to replace the tray back certainly is a thought provoking discussion. With the opportunity to test most of the offerings the only thing close was the Merc. at the time it was $105000 with an aluminium tray. Ouch.

The local parkies have both cruisers and mercs with strong views on either end of the spectrum. The local RFS have a station wagon ( 79?? ) but that is less than impressive on bumpy or windy roads.

Maybe a tray back amarok if they make one.

[trout1105]

I went over to the dark side about 6 years ago when I bought my D2a[bigwhistle][biggrin]

[grey_ghost]

Migandra? Grenadier?

[cjc_td5]

Off the shelf, a 70 series cruiser is the only thing close to your defender in terms of bushability...

Why not repower your defender? 3.0l 4JH1/4JJ1 Isuzu or similar would be my choice.

[karlz]

Off the shelf, a 70 series cruiser is the only thing close to your defender in terms of bushability...

Why not repower your defender? 3.0l 4JH1/4JJ1 Isuzu or similar would be my choice.

Why repower? Not needed, my Puma with the BAS kit is awesome. I dont want or need any more power, I have 2 motorbikes if I need a speed thrill.

My puma has done 80k, no major issues so far.
Reliability is my major concern, Id rather spend more money on maintenance than repowering. Also, upping the hp will more than likely require more maintenance.

[cjc_td5]

Why repower? Not needed, my Puma with the BAS kit is awesome. I dont want or need any more power, I have 2 motorbikes if I need a speed thrill.

My puma has done 80k, no major issues so far.
Reliability is my major concern, Id rather spend more money on maintenance than repowering. Also, upping the hp will more than likely require more maintenance.???
My comment regarding repower was not for extra "go", but for reliability. The OP has a TD5, a great motor, but getting on in years now. There are repower options out there that would provide cheap reliable power with excellent parts knowhow & parts supply.

[DiscoMick]

Why not buy one of the last of the Puma Defenders? Something only about 6 years old with relatively low kilometres, the 2.2 or 2.4 engine and six-speeds and air-con that actually works? What's not to like? Very happy with mine.

[noddy]

Re-power it to address the reliability issues.

Isuzu 4BD1T.
MB OM606
Chev LS
Cummins

Spend some coin making the Defender more reliable and giving it a mid-life refurb. Works out cheaper than a new vehicle and you get something that you want, as opposed to what is available on the market (which I agree, there is not much tempting me, except the Grenadier, but that will be close to $100k).

[100inch]

Re-power it to address the reliability issues.

Isuzu 4BD1T.
MB OM606
Chev LS
Cummins

Spend some coin making the Defender more reliable and giving it a mid-life refurb. Works out cheaper than a new vehicle and you get something that you want, as opposed to what is available on the market (which I agree, there is not much tempting me, except the Grenadier, but that will be close to $100k).

Most the time, it is the owners 'enhancements' and 'technical expertise' making the car unreliable.
None of those engines is an upgrade as such, due to their age. And yes I did my LS (actually L98) swap in in 2008 and to this day prefer a properly build Rover v8 over an LS. Maybe ask yourself why so many people who swap engines never have it dyno tested to get a print how much power they are actually getting......m

[Homestar]

Maybe ask yourself why so many people who swap engines never have it dyno tested to get a print how much power they are actually getting......m

Maybe because it’s not a number they need to know - if someone does a conversion and it feels great with more power and they’re happy, why put it on a dyno?

[100inch]

Maybe because it’s not a number they need to know - if someone does a conversion and it feels great with more power and they’re happy, why put it on a dyno?
Because after all the money you spend, another 1k doesn't really matter plus you fine tuning your engine setup, lambda etc.

[trout1105]

Most the time, it is the owners 'enhancements' and 'technical expertise' making the car unreliable.
None of those engines is an upgrade as such, due to their age. And yes I did my LS (actually L98) swap in in 2008 and to this day prefer a properly build Rover v8 over an LS. Maybe ask yourself why so many people who swap engines never have it dyno tested to get a print how much power they are actually getting......m

Most people that do an engine swap already know exactly what that new engine will produce in power and torque from the spec sheet on that engine so there is No need to spend the extra grand to confirm these stats.

Maybe after "Chipping" an engine a run on a dyno could be helpfull to provent boosting the output too far and degrading the lifespan of an engine But for a simple engine swap it isn't realy needed.

[100inch]

Most people that do an engine swap already know exactly what that new engine will produce in power and torque from the spec sheet on that engine so there is No need to spend the extra grand to confirm these stats.

Maybe after "Chipping" an engine a run on a dyno could be helpfull to provent boosting the output too far and degrading the lifespan of an engine But for a simple engine swap it isn't realy needed.
Well, I belong to the people who does a job properly (dying breed, I know). But feel free to share your engine swap experiences. m

[scarry]

So what vehicle to buy new or near new that can do what the old defender was good at?

Above is what the OP asked….[wink11]

[rar110]

Off the shelf, a 70 series cruiser is the only thing close to your defender in terms of bushability...

Why not repower your defender? 3.0l 4JH1/4JJ1 Isuzu or similar would be my choice.

Maybe that’s what I should do with my project 110 with a blown 200tdi. It would need to be quieter than my 4BD1T with 1/2 tonne noise matting.

[rar110]

And yes I’m considering replacing the Isuzu 110 and L322 as both are ageing and no one will touch them (especially the L322) if I’m more than 200km west and something goes wrong. Especially the L322.

[karlz]

Above is what the OP asked….[wink11]
So, it seems that a lot of people reckon spend the money upgrading your existing beast rather than spend it on something else (except for a Grenadier or cough toyo).
When my time comes to replace my 2015 Defender, I guess everything will be electric. Which is probably a good thing.

Actually thinking about it, its not a bad idea.

An analogy... Fossil fuel is near end of life[tldr]

I recently bought a new property, 2/3 of an acre, 1500m of backyard grass and a 10 degree slope.
Options to cut the grass:-
1. New Petrol Ride on - technology near end of life
2. Used Petrol ride on - too many issues
3. Battery Ride on - very expensive
4. Power assisted push mower - already have a good honda mover, hard to justify
5. Use my manual push mower - too much hard work
6. Pay someone to mow it - probably the best option, but I chose:-
7. Battery Robot mower

[\tldr]

[scarry]

Which is probably a good thing.

Maybe not if they dont have the convenience, that your current Defender has.

[Deefa]

Thanks everyone. I'll have to get the spanners out and pull the head off again when I get back. But it's days are numbered now. Here in outback Queensland cruisers rule. Yesterday I got overtaken by a 70 series cruiser up a hill towing a 4 horse trailer at 110 K. Meanwhile I am stopping every 50 ks to top up the water from the blown head gasket. Yeah there's a point of difference with a defender.

Can't see electric vehicle s doing towing like that for a long time. Sure commuter cars in the city. Look at a map of this country. It's a long way to anywhere when you are outback.

Engine swaps are possible but I don't need another project. Whos realistically got the time. I certainly don't. And you still have a lot of the issues that are not addressed. Like no airbags in an accident. Or roll over protection. Having to shout at your passenger at anything over 70 klms per hour. Oil leaks. Dust sealing, Etc etc.

Grenadier looks great but I can't see them being so popular that there is going to be a good dealer support network in Australia. And at around $100 K Is that a wise investment?

Maybe I am being a bit pessimistic as it has let me down in the middle of my holiday. Cutting short now and heading for home.
There sure seems to be a lot of those long slow Hills that go for many klms here in the outback.

[County4.4]

Thanks everyone. I'll have to get the spanners out and pull the head off again when I get back. But it's days are numbered now. Here in outback Queensland cruisers rule. Yesterday I got overtaken by a 70 series cruiser up a hill towing a 4 horse trailer at 110 K. Meanwhile I am stopping every 50 ks to top up the water from the blown head gasket. Yeah there's a point of difference with a defender.

Can't see electric vehicle s doing towing like that for a long time. Sure commuter cars in the city. Look at a map of this country. It's a long way to anywhere when you are outback.

Engine swaps are possible but I don't need another project. Whos realistically got the time. I certainly don't. And you still have a lot of the issues that are not addressed. Like no airbags in an accident. Or roll over protection. Having to shout at your passenger at anything over 70 klms per hour. Oil leaks. Dust sealing, Etc etc.

Grenadier looks great but I can't see them being so popular that there is going to be a good dealer support network in Australia. And at around $100 K Is that a wise investment?

Maybe I am being a bit pessimistic as it has let me down in the middle of my holiday. Cutting short now and heading for home.
There sure seems to be a lot of those long slow Hills that go for many klms here in the outback.

Ok I'll out myself.
I've gone to the dark side - after driving only defenders for 25 years plus.
I bought a new 79 series ute this year for work(Builder.) Didn't even test drive one.
Figured it would be the closest i could get to my 2003 defender 130.
Main reason was for the $150K instant asset write off the govt were offering.
The 130 is a less bumpy ride than the 79 series but not quite as smooth, if that makes sense.
Power in 79 is great, fuel bill not so great.
I've lost a few friends.
On the plus side I've had a chance to fix up a few niggling issues on the 130 and clean her up.
Can't believe how well It drives for nearly 20 years old.
I really need to sell it so I can get a better boat but keep finding excuses and things to tinker with.....can't quite seem to let go
Every time when I'm in the 79 and I see a defender I forget I can't wave any more...

[I Love My Landy!]

Off the shelf, a 70 series cruiser is the only thing close to your defender in terms of bushability...

They are a very expensive vehicle though. How much more 'bushable' would a 76/79 series be than say a new Hilux? Are they much stronger? Are they more capable in tough terrain? (They don't seem to flex much better than a hilux despite the solid axles). Are they any less complex than a hilux? These are genuine questions as i've thought about what i'd do in the future if i ever had to upgrade from my old 110. On paper the hilux seems like a safer and better appointed vehicle that does most of the same things that a 70 series could do while being cheaper to purchase, cheaper to maintain and cheaper to run. Oh and it's got the same wheel track front and rear! (Well, close enough to the same anyway).

Edward :)

[trout1105]

They are a very expensive vehicle though. How much more 'bushable' would a 76/79 series be than say a new Hilux? Are they much stronger? Are they more capable in tough terrain? (They don't seem to flex much better than a hilux despite the solid axles). Are they any less complex than a hilux? These are genuine questions as i've thought about what i'd do in the future if i ever had to upgrade from my old 110. On paper the hilux seems like a safer and better appointed vehicle that does most of the same things that a 70 series could do while being cheaper to purchase, cheaper to maintain and cheaper to run. Oh and it's got the same wheel track front and rear! (Well, close enough to the same anyway).

Edward :)

I have owned several hilux utes and 2x Surfs and they are great little 4WD's But the empasis is on "Little" .
They won't tow anything like as much as a 79 series does and they can Never carry as much cargo as a 79 Series.
The 79 Series is a much more robust vehicle that the newer hilux's ( the older ones were virtually indistructable).
Both the Hilux and the series trucks are extreamly reliable But the 79's are as tough as nails.

If you are looking for more comfort in a ute get the Hilux If you want a 4WD ute that is gutsy and will carry more than a ton of gear anywhere get the 79.

[TerryO]

I have owned several hilux utes and 2x Surfs and they are great little 4WD's But the empasis is on "Little" .
They won't tow anything like as much as a 79 series does and they can Never carry as much cargo as a 79 Series.
The 79 Series is a much more robust vehicle that the newer hilux's ( the older ones were virtually indistructable).
Both the Hilux and the series trucks are extreamly reliable But the 79's are as tough as nails.

If you are looking for more comfort in a ute get the Hilux If you want a 4WD ute that is gutsy and will carry more than a ton of gear anywhere get the 79.

Actually a quick check of carrying capacities of both a new 79 series crew cab and a HiLux crew cab shows that they are very similar in load rating and exactly the same in towing and max ball load.

Yes the 79 series is a more basic and possibly stronger design to the HiLux, but just about zero creature comforts and ordinary ride aren’t everything. Plus another big difference is cost of purchase, you pay a lot more to get that poor ride and much higher fuel bill.

Not that I’m a fan of either to be frank, if I was going to buy a crew cab I’d more than likely get the VW Amarok

Interesting basic comparison chart between the two Toyota’s.

carsales.com.au (https://www.carsales.com.au/new-cars/comparisons/cab-chassis-toyota-landcruiser-gxl/vs/cab-chassis-toyota-hilux-sr5/#details)

Good luck to the OP on what ever he decides.

[scarry]

Not that I’m a fan of either to be frank, if I was going to buy a crew cab I’d more than likely get the VW Amarok

A good few mates had these,and they have moved them on pretty quickly.Same as their vans.
Used as a work vehicle,they dont take long to fall apart.One had his for 5 yrs,the only thing that wasnt repaired was the engine.
Door handles break,dash falls apart,drive train repairs,and on it goes.

They are also decades behind the others with safety gear.

For private use they may be fine,but used for work,loaded,all day,every day,from what i have seen,they dont cut it.

As i have said on here before,having run a fleet of commercial vehicles of different brands, for many years,there is only one brand that we have had that will continually do over 300 000Km,with out a single repair,and thats the one with the T on the front.
There is a reason they are a top seller,particularly in the LV commercial market.

[I Love My Landy!]

carsales.com.au (https://www.carsales.com.au/new-cars/comparisons/cab-chassis-toyota-landcruiser-gxl/vs/cab-chassis-toyota-hilux-sr5/#details)



Thanks for that link TerryO. Interesting to read the performance figure comparison. The hilux makes the same power and more torque than the big V8.173060

[TerryO]

A good few mates had these,and they have moved them on pretty quickly.Same as their vans.
Used as a work vehicle,they dont take long to fall apart.One had his for 5 yrs,the only thing that wasnt repaired was the engine.
Door handles break,dash falls apart,drive train repairs,and on it goes.

They are also decades behind the others with safety gear.

For private use they may be fine,but used for work,loaded,all day,every day,from what i have seen,they dont cut it.

As i have said on here before,having run a fleet of commercial vehicles of different brands, for many years,there is only one brand that we have had that will continually do over 300 000Km,with out a single repair,and thats the one with the T on the front.
There is a reason they are a top seller,particularly in the LV commercial market.

Thanks for destroying my interest in a Amorak. Ever wonder why and how the Japanese for so long have been making very reliable and well priced products, when the most of Asia is known for making not so reliable and poorly made gear?

Well we can all blame it on a gentlemen whose name was W. Edwards Demming. I remember reading about him forty odd years ago, interesting what he was able to achieve in Japan, he has been considered a hero by Japanese industry since soon after WW2.

In major part if it wasn’t for him you might be now telling me my choice was a good one and how VW is the best of a useless bunch. … [bigwhistle]

[scarry]

Thanks for destroying my interest in a Amorak. Ever wonder why and how the Japanese for so long have been making very reliable and well priced products, when the most of Asia is known for making not so reliable and poorly made gear?

Well we can all blame it on a gentlemen whose name was W. Edwards Demming. I remember reading about him forty odd years ago, interesting what he was able to achieve in Japan, he has been considered a hero by Japanese industry since soon after WW2.

In major part if it wasn’t for him you might be now telling me my choice was a good one and how VW is the best of a useless bunch. … [bigwhistle]

Sorry to wreck the party,it is only my experience,but i could be totally wrong[bighmmm][biggrin]

The Japs were the great copiers years ago just after the war,and their aim was to produce the most reliable vehicles,but be conservative at the same time.

They still do that today,put reliability and ease of maintenance,where possible, ahead of complicated technology.

The Koreans are actually now copying the Japs,have been for quite a few years,and are going ahead in leaps and bounds.

[Grumbles]

They still do that today,put reliability and ease of maintenance,where possible, ahead of complicated technology.

I've got a Pajero with 154,000 kms that would agree with you Scarry. Not one thing has needed repair.

[one_iota]

Sorry to wreck the party,it is only my experience,but i could be totally wrong[bighmmm][biggrin]

The Japs were the great copiers years ago just after the war,and their aim was to produce the most reliable vehicles,but be conservative at the same time.

They still do that today,put reliability and ease of maintenance,where possible, ahead of complicated technology.

The Koreans are actually now copying the Japs,have been for quite a few years,and are going ahead in leaps and bounds.

I'll add that with a story that was told to me when I worked for the construction company Thiess.

At the time of the Snowy Mountains Scheme construction, Leslie Thiess who was doing some of the civil work was looking for a rugged vehicle that could move around from site to site. He was having problems with the Land Rovers that were breaking and there was very little support available for servicing and repairs. He was approached by Toyota who offered to not only supply him with its vehicles but also Toyota engineers to support those in the field. Of course, the spin-off for Toyota was an on-the-ground experience to feedback into its design and manufacturing. So was born the first Toyota dealership: Thiess Toyota. It became the working vehicle of choice because the dealership and its service were spread throughout the country.

So where was Land Rover?....crickets I hear.

[Vern]

A good few mates had these,and they have moved them on pretty quickly.Same as their vans.
Used as a work vehicle,they dont take long to fall apart.One had his for 5 yrs,the only thing that wasnt repaired was the engine.
Door handles break,dash falls apart,drive train repairs,and on it goes.

They are also decades behind the others with safety gear.

For private use they may be fine,but used for work,loaded,all day,every day,from what i have seen,they dont cut it.

As i have said on here before,having run a fleet of commercial vehicles of different brands, for many years,there is only one brand that we have had that will continually do over 300 000Km,with out a single repair,and thats the one with the T on the front.
There is a reason they are a top seller,particularly in the LV commercial market.My experience as an actual amarok owner of around 6 years, is i never had to lay a spanner on it, only thing that ever let it down, was the traxide sc80 which tim replaced. Same goes for our Passat, and my T5 transporter. Actually thats a lie, the transporter once had a weeping shock, replace no questions asked by vw.

[Vern]

Anyway, back to the topic on hand, yes, i went to the darkside, and purchased a new y62 in 2018, now done just shy of 100kkm, and not one issue at all. Reason for going to nissan over rover, was all the issues i read on here. Autos, cranks, turbos, electronics etc....my anxiety levels would be through the roof in anticipation of if/when something will break.

[cripesamighty]

Was talking to a friend the other day who has an auto Amarok with that low first gear, but no 4WD, which is OK as he uses it for mostly light duties. Apparently it has been brilliant for him, apart for the one time he got it really stuck and needed the extra torque of a low range box so had to get snatched out.

As an aside, I saved this from a magazine a couple of years ago.

173075

[Arapiles]

Thanks for destroying my interest in a Amorak. Ever wonder why and how the Japanese for so long have been making very reliable and well priced products, when the most of Asia is known for making not so reliable and poorly made gear? Well we can all blame it on a gentlemen whose name was W. Edwards Demming. I remember reading about him forty odd years ago, interesting what he was able to achieve in Japan, he has been considered a hero by Japanese industry since soon after WW2. [bigwhistle]



That's not exactly correct .... the Japanese wanted to improve their quality and asked Deming for assistance - he didn't force them on the country unilaterally.

"While in Japan, his expertise in quality-control techniques, combined with his involvement in Japanese society, brought him an invitation from the Union of Japanese Scientists and Engineers (JUSE).
JUSE members had studied Shewhart's techniques, and as part of Japan's reconstruction efforts, they sought an expert to teach statistical control."

W. Edwards Deming - Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W._Edwards_Deming)

[chuck]

Have placed an order on a Silver 79 series dual cab.

10 months away so should get new 22 MY

Upgraded a few things to make it more civilised.

I think that is some of the appeal - customisation.

Can put on bull bars, lifts etc.

Hilux does have more power but to me less potential, plus completely different seating position.

[Deefa]

I'll add that with a story that was told to me when I worked for the construction company Thiess.

At the time of the Snowy Mountains Scheme construction, Leslie Thiess who was doing some of the civil work was looking for a rugged vehicle that could move around from site to site. He was having problems with the Land Rovers that were breaking and there was very little support available for servicing and repairs. He was approached by Toyota who offered to not only supply him with its vehicles but also Toyota engineers to support those in the field. Of course, the spin-off for Toyota was an on-the-ground experience to feedback into its design and manufacturing. So was born the first Toyota dealership: Thiess Toyota. It became the working vehicle of choice because the dealership and its service were spread throughout the country.

So where was Land Rover?....crickets I hear.

Indeed , Land rover has in many ways led the way, look at the first Range Rover, first coil sprung, permanent 4wd, 4 wheel disc brake , centre diff, and that was 1969. The problem has always been they just never refined the original designs. Problems they were well aware of they did nothing to rectify. The same thing is still present. Most will know of the issues with the 3.0 litre motors that self destruct. Land Rover are very reluctant to help owners at all once this happens out of warranty. Another example is the oil leaking main harness on the Td5 engine. 6 years of production and no change of design of a very common problem that had to be known within 6 months or so of build. They better be careful as the new cars are all capable only by the tech and the oppositions vehicles are simply a software upgrade away from being as good.

Sorry guys i am just a bit jaded at the moment with the brand. I think they have just drifted so far from the original concept of the Land Rover which drew us to it at the beginning. Simple, purposeful, utilitarian, sort of a Swiss army knife of vehicle. Nothing they make could be further from that now. ... In my opinion, for what that's worth.

[Deefa]

Have placed an order on a Silver 79 series dual cab.

10 months away so should get new 22 MY

Upgraded a few things to make it more civilised.

I think that is some of the appeal - customisation.

Can put on bull bars, lifts etc.

Hilux does have more power but to me less potential, plus completely different seating position.

Yes I have been looking as well. What was the lead time quoted to you? I have heard up to 12 months. What did you upgrade and cost if you don't
mind me asking?

[Grumbles]

....... the oppositions vehicles are simply a software upgrade away from being as good.

.........I think they have just drifted so far from the original concept of the Land Rover which drew us to it at the beginning. Simple, purposeful, .

I think you are on track with your perspective Deefa.

Their cars now have very little to distinguish them from its competitors. People who buy expensive cars generally like to be noticed and stand out from the crowd. LR cars no longer do this. They blend in quite well.

Ford made the same mistake with its Fairlane. Up to the NL the Fairlanes looks were nothing like its litle brother the Falcon. When they brought out the AU Falcon the "AU" Fairlane could barely be differentiated from its lesser brother. Consequently Fairlane sales plummeted and soon after was discontinued.

[Homestar]

Have placed an order on a Silver 79 series dual cab.

10 months away so should get new 22 MY

Upgraded a few things to make it more civilised.

I think that is some of the appeal - customisation.

Can put on bull bars, lifts etc.

Hilux does have more power but to me less potential, plus completely different seating position.

Much better option than a Hilux IMO. [thumbsupbig]

Not that I hate Hiluxs - They've been my company car and daily driver for 6 years, but if I was buying one myself I'd go something else.

[I Love My Landy!]

Have placed an order on a Silver 79 series dual cab.

Hilux does have more power but to me less potential, plus completely different seating position.

You make a great point Chuck. I reckon I would buy a 4wd on seating position alone. I love the seating position of my 110 - nice and high (I have even raised the seat a little bit to make it even better). The 79's seating position feels similar to the 110. Pretty much every other Japanese 4wd or ute has the wrong seating position for me - way too low. The Prado's that I drive for work always give me a sore back and neck on a long drive.

Edward :)

[incisor]

You make a great point Chuck. I reckon I would buy a 4wd on seating position alone. I love the seating position of my 110 - nice and high (I have even raised the seat a little bit to make it even better). The 79's seating position feels similar to the 110. Pretty much every other Japanese 4wd or ute has the wrong seating position for me - way too low.
Edward :)

same for me...

[TerryO]

That's not exactly correct .... the Japanese wanted to improve their quality and asked Deming for assistance - he didn't force them on the country unilaterally.

"While in Japan, his expertise in quality-control techniques, combined with his involvement in Japanese society, brought him an invitation from the Union of Japanese Scientists and Engineers (JUSE).
JUSE members had studied Shewhart's techniques, and as part of Japan's reconstruction efforts, they sought an expert to teach statistical control."

W. Edwards Deming - Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/W._Edwards_Deming)

Sorry but I would invite you to reread my comment as it would appear you have totally misconstrued what I said, at no stage did I say Deming or anyone else forced the Japanese to do anything and yes I am aware that he was invited to assist and guide Japanese industry post WW2, as I said, I read about it at length over forty years ago, which is decades before Wikipedia was created as a source.

I was merely pointing out, in what was meant to be a humorous manner, how and why the Japanese ended up being considered as the country that produced the highest quality products, after it was pointed out by Paul (Scarry) that my choice of a German vehicle was not such a good choice as they are not as reliable or well built as Toyota's.

[scarry]

Indeed , Land rover has in many ways led the way, look at the first Range Rover, first coil sprung, permanent 4wd, 4 wheel disc brake , centre diff, and that was 1969. The problem has always been they just never refined the original designs. Problems they were well aware of they did nothing to rectify. The same thing is still present. Most will know of the issues with the 3.0 litre motors that self destruct. Land Rover are very reluctant to help owners at all once this happens out of warranty. Another example is the oil leaking main harness on the Td5 engine. 6 years of production and no change of design of a very common problem that had to be known within 6 months or so of build. They better be careful as the new cars are all capable only by the tech and the oppositions vehicles are simply a software upgrade away from being as good..

Only in 4x4’s,most of the LR ‘innovations’ have or had been used in other vehicles for years,even decades before LR used them.

I think their biggest issue is reliability,and this blame has to go to the people that run the company,or have run it over the years.

Surely anyone that ran a company that was continually at the bottom of all the reliability surveys,and has a general reputation for unreliability,would do something about it.

Seems not much has been done at all,in fact one large UK survey mob actually noted that the Puma Defender was the most unreliable vehicle they had ever surveyed.

Looking closer at those surveys,it’s the Japanese manufacturers that are generally at or close to the top.

[TerryO]

You make a great point Chuck. I reckon I would buy a 4wd on seating position alone. I love the seating position of my 110 - nice and high (I have even raised the seat a little bit to make it even better). The 79's seating position feels similar to the 110. Pretty much every other Japanese 4wd or ute has the wrong seating position for me - way too low. The Prado's that I drive for work always give me a sore back and neck on a long drive.

Edward :)

Agreed the driving position and actual seats are very important, the most comfortable seating position and seats of any vehicle I have driven is easily the D2a we owned for several years, especially with the Captains chairs. You could drive for hours on end and get out feeling like it had been a drive around the block. The D3 was next for comfort then the D4, D3 had better seats and ride than the D4 and both were HSE spec.

In theory the D1 should be up there with the D2a, but without Captains chairs and it having so many off road mods it was tiring to drive distances.

As for driving Defenders, I have tried but I don't fit that well in one unfortunately.

[chuck]

Deefa

Alpine 9" head unit upgrade with both premium sat nav & Hema
Focal speakers, amp & sub woofer
Alpine reverse camera
Rear parking sensors
ARB Bullbar & side rails
Terrain Tamer Parabolic suspension with remote res shocks
Stedi lights
UHF radio
Cruiser consoles centre console
Safari Armax snorkel, ecu, exhaust & clutch

Cost - too much but Novating thru work and because its commercial no LCT.

Will do wheels & tyres myself

Delivery could blow out past ten months as Toyota has just stopped production of all landcruisers for 5 - 6 weeks due to chip shortages

Delay suits me.

Will come out of lease right on retirement.

[scarry]

Terrain Tamer Parabolic suspension with remote res shocks

I know a guy who has that set up and loves it.

Another mate has BP51's on his,and it rides so well,its rediculous,although his is pretty heavy as it has every accessory ever made hanging off it....[biggrin][bighmmm]

[Deefa]

Thanks for that chuck. Sounds like it will be an awesome truck. ( Can't believe I am typing this in a landrover Forum!) just looking at the accessories ,and it's amazing how much money you can spend. You can even get coil spring conversions. But costs a bomb. The 70 series must be coming to an end in the next few years. Haven't Toyota committed to all electric vehicle s by a certain year?

Might go the way of the last defender and you will be sitting on a Gold mine. Like the defender, when they announced the end demand shot up.

[rar110]

I know a guy who has that set up and loves it.

Another mate has BP51's on his,and it rides so well,its rediculous,although his is pretty heavy as it has every accessory ever made hanging off it....[biggrin][bighmmm]

I like the idea of 76/79 with parabolics and BP51s, rather than extra exp of rear coil conversion. It’s hard to find unbiased info to help.

[rar110]

Thanks for that chuck. Sounds like it will be an awesome truck. ( Can't believe I am typing this in a landrover Forum!) just looking at the accessories ,and it's amazing how much money you can spend. You can even get coil spring conversions. But costs a bomb. The 70 series must be coming to an end in the next few years. Haven't Toyota committed to all electric vehicle s by a certain year?

Might go the way of the last defender and you will be sitting on a Gold mine. Like the defender, when they announced the end demand shot up.

A coil conversion is less expensive if you consider it includes a rear track correction (new rear axle housing/shafts) and GVM upgrade to account for weight of tray & normal loads of fuel, food, water, gear and oh yeah 4 people.

Also FYI the standard 79 wheel base is slightly shorter than a 130. So quite similar.

[scarry]

I like the idea of 76/79 with parabolics and BP51s, rather than extra exp of rear coil conversion. It’s hard to find unbiased info to help.

BP51 are an ARB product,dont know if they do parabolics as well.

My sons 76 is at Down South Motorsport,ATM,they are just a small place,Paul the owner does a lot of work himself,always got Tojo's in.Seems pretty good,but small shop,very busy so long wait time.Might not do parabolics,but knows his stuff,been doing it many years.
Brisbane north.

Hopefully the 76 will ride better when its finished,just a suspension upgrade and 2" lift.

[rar110]

BP51 are an ARB product,dont know if they do parabolics as well.

My sons 76 is at Down South Motorsport,ATM,they are just a small place,Paul the owner does a lot of work himself,always got Tojo's in.Seems pretty good,but small shop,very busy so long wait time.Might not do parabolics,but knows his stuff,been doing it many years.
Brisbane north.

Hopefully the 76 will ride better when its finished,just a suspension upgrade and 2" lift.

Thanks Scarry. There’s not much independent information about parabolic springs. it would be very interesting to hear unbiased reports about how BP51 shocks work with parabolic springs.

Coils will always have the advantage of no under axle drag and probably better ride over corrugations/uneven surfaces. Many also argue coils do better at load carrying.

It’s a shame and weird that Toyota didn’t do a early 90s prado style rear coil suspension set up for the VDJ76 series. I would seriously consider an imported 3.0 td4 kzj78 aka 76 with rear coils but they are now 25 years old and about $45k landed

Something like this
TOYOTA LAND CRUISER PRADO SX WIDE | 1996 |
TWO TONE | 165000 km | details.- Japanese used cars.Goo-net Exchange (https://www.goo-net-exchange.com/usedcars/TOYOTA/LAND_CRUISER_PRADO/700080374330210318001/index.html) .

[chuck]

Terrain Tamer Parabolics get very good reviews except if you are heavy all the time.

However they have just released a 4 spring version for this purpose.

They have also just released their Remote Res Shockers - they almost apologised for the price of them when i priced them up.

Terrain Tamer lift is less than half Old Man Emu with BP 51's yet still gets very good reviews with comfort and rear flex featuring heavily in comment

Unsprung weight reduction is also significant.

[mark2]

A coil conversion is less expensive if you consider it includes a rear track correction (new rear axle housing/shafts) and GVM upgrade to account for weight of tray & normal loads of fuel, food, water, gear and oh yeah 4 people.

Also FYI the standard 79 wheel base is slightly shorter than a 130. So quite similar.

Yes, the rear track correction is a factor worth considering, also ability to use proper air bags. In the scheme of things, the rear coil conversion is not a lot compared with the price of the vehicle and addresses the main shortcomings.

[I Love My Landy!]

Yes, the rear track correction is a factor worth considering, also ability to use proper air bags. In the scheme of things, the rear coil conversion is not a lot compared with the price of the vehicle and addresses the main shortcomings.

But should a $75,000 ute require such a modification straight from the factory???

(Is the difference in track width really that much of an issue anyway? It can't be that bad considering Toyota hasn't done anything about it in so many years of production of the V8 70 series, surely?).

Edward :)

[1103.9TDI]

I bought myself an early, low mileage, BMW X5 E53 diesel for $5k. Leather, lovely straight six turbo, non airbag suspension, smooth auto and similar fuel economy to my LR. The family love it and it’s great for weekend drives or just running down to the shops. Best of all, I can keep the County with reduced frequency of maintenance on both. Best of both worlds I reckon.

[scarry]

(Is the difference in track width really that much of an issue anyway? It can't be that bad considering Toyota hasn't done anything about it in so many years of production of the V8 70 series, surely?).

Edward :)

Its a bit like Holden or Ford?

Some dont mod them,and have had them for years with no issues at all.
Others have done the mod,after having them for a few years and recon it makes a huge difference.

[trout1105]

But should a $75,000 ute require such a modification straight from the factory???

(Is the difference in track width really that much of an issue anyway? It can't be that bad considering Toyota hasn't done anything about it in so many years of production of the V8 70 series, surely?).

Edward :)

My 79 hasn't had the track correction mod and I haven't had any dramas in sand/mud because of it.
Anyway this quirky track width variation is a small price to pay for the amazing reliabillity and off road capabillity this vehicle provides.

[zapata1]

What about spending some dollars on the old defender
I’m sure the fifty plus grand you intend to spend on another make of inappropriate vehicle could turn the td5 Defender into a pumping 3.9 turbo lifted locked (and whatever else you can imagine) DEFENDER

And I believe you would enjoy it more over the next 15 years!!!

[emoji481][emoji481][emoji481]
Gav
all interesting commentary and having being a long time Range Rover classic owner having owned 6 of various models together with 2 early 2a LR one with 253 v8 a rr with p76 and then a number of standard configurations I have locked into a 94 LSE classic which I got as a rolling chassis but which is engineered for a 3.9 Isuzu.
Having managed pre Covid Oct 19 at the national perentie day in thurgoona to purchase a new crate 3.9 turbo version destined for a 6x6. yes a miracle I know…..
I have had built what I consider is my ultimate vehicle which is within my budget.
The cost when you consider what specialised companies like LRA in Melbourne build them for its horses for courses.
It’s not my main vehicle and intend to spend time using it in the VHC.
Cost? the same as I would pay for a cheaper new Ute having it done professionally is always the ouch factor and conversions rebuilds call them what you will are never painless as I have discovered but as I have often been told it’s the journey as much as the final outcome.
My main vehicle is a current model y62 and I never use that in the bush and that by far is a better value for dollar
Vehicle in that category than it’s competitors. Nissan suddenly realised when I bought mine in 2018 they were too cheap

[Vern]

all interesting commentary and having being a long time Range Rover classic owner having owned 6 of various models together with 2 early 2a LR one with 253 v8 a rr with p76 and then a number of standard configurations I have locked into a 94 LSE classic which I got as a rolling chassis but which is engineered for a 3.9 Isuzu.
Having managed pre Covid Oct 19 at the national perentie day in thurgoona to purchase a new crate 3.9 turbo version destined for a 6x6. yes a miracle I know…..
I have had built what I consider is my ultimate vehicle which is within my budget.
The cost when you consider what specialised companies like LRA in Melbourne build them for its horses for courses.
It’s not my main vehicle and intend to spend time using it in the VHC.
Cost? the same as I would pay for a cheaper new Ute having it done professionally is always the ouch factor and conversions rebuilds call them what you will are never painless as I have discovered but as I have often been told it’s the journey as much as the final outcome.
My main vehicle is a current model y62 and I never use that in the bush and that by far is a better value for dollar
Vehicle in that category than it’s competitors. Nissan suddenly realised when I bought mine in 2018 they were too cheapThat LSE sounds like a great vehicle, i think i know the previous owner[emoji1787][emoji1787][emoji1787][emoji1787][emoji1787].
Good to see you on here Les[emoji6]



(I still regret parting it out, oh well[emoji25][emoji25])

[Vern]

Anyway this quirky track width variation is a small price to pay for the amazing reliabillity and off road capabillity this vehicle provides.

Thats a big statement[emoji1]

[trout1105]

Thats a big statement[emoji1]

It's a big 4WD [biggrin]

[discorevy]

Maybe the mods can create a sub forum here for the Tojo fan club ( would that be AUTO ? )

I've been actual bashing ( as opposed to tongue bashing ) my heavily laden D2a about the Pilbara and Kimberly towing a tinny for the last couple of weeks on a 2 month 9000k adventure .
Incredibly it hasn't broken down , leaked oil or rattled itself to death on the corrugations so far.

But then it's only got 416000k on the clock

I'm not expecting an issue , nor have any anxiety around failures .

Comfy ,air con , cruise control , modern power levels with VGT and mapping. These are the only desirable luxuries I require, but I'm easily pleased

Thought someone should put a good word in for the last of the Landies

[zapata1]

That LSE sounds like a great vehicle, i think i know the previous owner[emoji1787][emoji1787][emoji1787][emoji1787][emoji1787].
Good to see you on here Les[emoji6]



(I still regret parting it out, oh well[emoji25][emoji25])

Thanks Vern and yes Damian it’s going to be well looked after.

[Deefa]

Update. Well we did make it home alright. Ordered all the bits from Turner's engineering in the UK. A Elring brand gasket so we will see how that goes. Last gasket was a no name one so perhaps that was the issue. I'm going to give it one more try and see how it goes. It's just that the Landy has let us down a few times that we have been on holidays for the last few years. You tend to expect it after a while.

[DazzaTD5]

To me the only vehicle that is in the same or similar no frills standard/class of a Defender (classic?) is a 76 series cruiser wagon. Complete with its wind up windows, manual gearbox and steel wheels.

There is nothing left on the market.

[scarry]

I hear the Paj is now discontinued,so that leaves another hole in the market,and not much competition for the Playdo...

[Vern]

Just curious if anyone has done a comparison between the 79 dual cab and 130 dual cab for cabin space?? I tried (not very hard) to find some specs on this.

[cripesamighty]

The Mahindra Pikup seems rather no-frills with an upright driving position.

[ozscott]

I went to the dark side 45,000klm ago and got into a MR Triton with Super Select 2 with all the fruit. I have given it a very mild lift and EFS suspension, rock sliders and Nitto Ridge Grapplers. It is a great drive. Electric drivers seat goes high enough for a good view out the front when offroad. The handling, braking etc is excellent (the GLSP Triton has larger brakes than base models). The rear leafs are well sorted and unlike Toyota are mounted above the axle. Clearance- real world - is excellent. Great reliable motor with 6 speed Aisin box that is very intuitive. 10 inch rear diff. Very good running gear.

My D2 i have had for 20 years. Great kit and good fun with a lot of mods and a LOT of adventures and memories but these days my preference is to take the Triton pretty much anywhere I go.

The LR has more character (although the Triton has its own) but there are other vehicles to own apart from Land Rover.

Cheers

[Gav 110]

I have had the 110 off the road for a few weeks waiting for parts and only being able to work on it on the weekends
Driving the vw transporter for work, occasionally driving the missus’ adventra and taking the hilux to and from the farm

Finally got the old girl on the road today, comfort is an understatement, it’s the only car I can sit in for more than 1 1/2 hours without getting a sore back or butt

Definitely won’t be going to the dark side[emoji1531][emoji1531]

[rar110]

I went to the dark side 45,000klm ago and got into a MR Triton with Super Select 2 with all the fruit. I have given it a very mild lift and EFS suspension, rock sliders and Nitto Ridge Grapplers. It is a great drive. Electric drivers seat goes high enough for a good view out the front when offroad. The handling, braking etc is excellent (the GLSP Triton has larger brakes than base models). The rear leafs are well sorted and unlike Toyota are mounted above the axle. Clearance- real world - is excellent. Great reliable motor with 6 speed Aisin box that is very intuitive. 10 inch rear diff. Very good running gear.

My D2 i have had for 20 years. Great kit and good fun with a lot of mods and a LOT of adventures and memories but these days my preference is to take the Triton pretty much anywhere I go.

The LR has more character (although the Triton has its own) but there are other vehicles to own apart from Land Rover.

Cheers

A mate picked up a Triton with all the fruit incl leather seats in early 2019 I think, for $45k drive away. Apart from the plastics being a bit on the cheap side, he loves it with option of permanent 4WD. It was certainly amazing bang for buck. He hasn’t touched the suspension so I suspect he could improve he ride.

[ozscott]

A mate picked up a Triton with all the fruit incl leather seats in early 2019 I think, for $45k drive away. Apart from the plastics being a bit on the cheap side, he loves it with option of permanent 4WD. It was certainly amazing bang for buck. He hasn’t touched the suspension so I suspect he could improve he ride.For sure. Mate I got mine the same - new in late 19 top spec all the fruit for $44 drive away with 2 years free servicing and that long Mitsu warranty. Plastics are holding up well but they are never going to be as hard wearing as a Land Rover. But it is a very nice interior and very comfortable on long trips.Having a tray (and now enclosed tray) is magic for camping and acres of space. The 118 inch wheel base works nicely offroad and in car parks [emoji1787]Cheers https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211031/eb46a62a96d58f2591d05bc89c17486e.jpg

[Deefa]

Well I just thought I would give an update since I am the OP. I looked at Landcruisers, and although they do tick a lot of boxes, to set the cruiser up for a tourer would cost near 40 k on top of the base price. Thats a decent suspension and a tray as well as an tray back for gear. (looked at a duel cab) I just cant justify that sort of coin.

My 110 is now sitting in the shed unused waiting to decide how to go about fixing it.

On a brighter note I have put down some cash for a build offer when they start making them, on a new Grenadier. After watching a lot of you tube videos its growing on me. IF they get it right it would be a lot of the compromises of the Old Defender fixed without ditching the whole concept like the new Defender. Price might be the issue though!

BTW I don't have any problem with the new Defender, its just personally I don't like it. But others do and i respect that. ( learning now from another post that when you say you don't like it many people go to great lengths to convince you that you should like it)

[Tombie]

Well I just thought I would give an update since I am the OP. I looked at Landcruisers, and although they do tick a lot of boxes, to set the cruiser up for a tourer would cost near 40 k on top of the base price. Thats a decent suspension and a tray as well as an tray back for gear. (looked at a duel cab) I just cant justify that sort of coin.

My 110 is now sitting in the shed unused waiting to decide how to go about fixing it.

On a brighter note I have put down some cash for a build offer when they start making them, on a new Grenadier. After watching a lot of you tube videos its growing on me. IF they get it right it would be a lot of the compromises of the Old Defender fixed without ditching the whole concept like the new Defender. Price might be the issue though!

BTW I don't have any problem with the new Defender, its just personally I don't like it. But others do and i respect that. ( learning now from another post that when you say you don't like it many people go to great lengths to convince you that you should like it)

Sinking $40k into the Defender would make it a weapon!

[scarry]

Grenadia,with a few mods,probably wont be far off the price of a 79 plus mods.

And the Grenadia is not tried and tested,but is a completely different vehicle to a 79.

Then throw Tombies thought into the equation....

Anyway,whichever way you go,i hope it all works out.
Good luck with the decision making[biggrin]

[Gav 110]

Sinking $40k into the Defender would make it a weapon!

Sinking 40g into any car would make it a weapon [emoji1531][emoji1531]
But sinking 40g into defender would make into a “better” weapon [emoji16][emoji16][emoji16]

[Robmacca]

For those looking to jump to the Dark Side... A golden opportunity has presented itself to invest in the perfect Tourer forsale on Gumtree....


The Ultimate Dream Tourer to a little $9000 (https://www.gumtree.com.au/s-ad/slacks-creek/cars-vans-utes/-toyota-landcruiser-make-an-offer-/1284101462?ea=19332076)




Once in a life time opportunity… never to be offered or seen again… VERY unique vehicle… one of a kind must have 😉
Comes with it’s own BBQ where u can take your fresh animal catch from the cage on the roof straight on to the BBQ for a fresh meal… Great Wine selection from the front Air Cooled Wine Chiller with the added benefit of also having a spare engine block should the unthinkable happen …


Get in quick before the rush

[rar110]

There is no perfect replacement for a 110. Like you say you have to sink serious money into a VDJ79 or 76 to make it what you want.

The Grenadier and LC300 are both promising but will have to wait and see.

Ive sold the Perentie wagon, and will sell the L322, and the search is on for something in between. That is reliable, comfortable, capable, safe, fit for purpose, affordable and is able to be readily repaired if something does go wrong a long way from the east coast (the objective).

An option still rolling around in my head is to use my teenage son’s D1 (ours really) with a soon to be installed rebuilt motor. And to convert 1992 110 I have in reasonable nic but with blown 200tdi into a 4B Isuzu with MSA box. But neither option fully meets the objective above.

[ozscott]

You can still go on safari using dark side vehicles...https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20211106/bb6b13fe61b26217854c391db64420ec.jpg

[350RRC]

Never knew you could join floor joists together mid span with gang nails, must be a QLD thing.

DL

[ozscott]

Yep thick top and bottom nail plates - nailed on all faces. Was done 25 years ago. Seem to work well. Cheers

[Vern]

There is no perfect replacement for a 110. Like you say you have to sink serious money into a VDJ79 or 76 to make it what you want.

The Grenadier and LC300 are both promising but will have to wait and see.

Ive sold the Perentie wagon, and will sell the L322, and the search is on for something in between. That is reliable, comfortable, capable, safe, fit for purpose, affordable and is able to be readily repaired if something does go wrong a long way from the east coast (the objective).

An option still rolling around in my head is to use my teenage son’s D1 (ours really) with a soon to be installed rebuilt motor. And to convert 1992 110 I have in reasonable nic but with blown 200tdi into a 4B Isuzu with MSA box. But neither option fully meets the objective above.I myself am almost at the conclusion that my 4bd1t county project isn't going to suit my needs, and will require lots of mods to get there, and the fact that we don't need 3 cars. I'm at the point of it could be time to part ways with all my landy stuff, and my iload van, and possibly jump into a late model GU chopped into a dual cab (i really desire a dual cab) as my daily and bush basher/ camping rig.
Unfortunately wifey won't let me chop up the y62[emoji1]

[Deefa]

Last Sunday I had a close look at the prototype Grenadier at the scenic Rim 4x4 park near Beaudesert. Sat in the passenger side for an off road drive. This thing is a bloody impressive bit of kit. Obviously its a prototype, but the thought they have put into this is impressive. Finally a manufacturer that listens to its customer base that does not want a poser 4x4 but one actually is practicable and used offroad. They basically said that they have taken the spirit of the Defender and fixed all the known issues in a completely new build. The BMW 3 litre twin turbo diesel is incredibly quite and powerful. My idea of a better new defender was always .

1 Powerful, The old Defender was never fitted with a decent power to weight ratio engine that could tow with ease. You know those long hills in inland Australia that you drop to 4th and then 3rd with a line of traffic forming behind you.
2 timeless shape, not out of date as soon as the next model comes out just after you have purchased your new car.
3 Beam axles with coils all round. With manually operated Diff locks F and R . The newer Landrover products have an idea that the driver is useless and the car has to drive out of problems not the driver. This is a direct result of people buying poser 4x4s who have know idea of how to operate them.
4 Not leaking water and dust in like the old Defender.
5 Easily adding extra kit as everything is boxy.
6 upgraded safety , like airbags. They have been around for 25 years but the old Defender never had them.
7 Wider body.
8 Sound deadening. Ive put 250 thousand KLMS on my Defender and i am sure that's why my hearing is getting bad.
9 Electronics to a minimum. You cant build a car these days without computers but keep it simple like no electric handbrake, A lever to engage Low and High range not solenoids etc.
10 Ability to fix at least basic things yourself.
11 Affordable.

The new Grenadier is not going to tick all these boxes (especially the last one) but I think its close.

Im saving up!

[simonmelb]

The D2 met quite a few of these requirements which is why I’m keeping mine for a bit longer. The Grenadier I agree looks to have done so many things right. I had been seriously looking at a 2014/15 Prado but it would be a backward step from the D2 in too many areas, so you never know about a Grenadier……

[sid]

Interesting I've just seen this thread. Listed my TD5 130 for sale last night. Been putting it off for a week, but put an order in on a new 76 landcruiser 9 months ago and need to move it on. The Defender is a brilliant car and I love it to bits, but unfortunately it's just doing what 23 year old cars do, which is need lots of maintenance. Did lots of remote touring in it, but for that job reliability is key and it was beginning to fail in that regard.

If the Grenadier was ready to order a year ago, I'd have seriously looked at it. The 76 was the only other alternative that fits my wants/needs. Seems like that's not an uncommon thought process based on the comments here!

I'll continue to get my fix with a S2 that I'll restore, but it won't be my daily driver so doesn't have the same requirements.

[scarry]

I myself am almost at the conclusion that my 4bd1t county project isn't going to suit my needs, and will require lots of mods to get there, and the fact that we don't need 3 cars. I'm at the point of it could be time to part ways with all my landy stuff, and my iload van, and possibly jump into a late model GU chopped into a dual cab (i really desire a dual cab) as my daily and bush basher/ camping rig.
Unfortunately wifey won't let me chop up the y62[emoji1]

Chop the Y62,and get her a new one.
Then you will both be sorted[bighmmm][biggrin]

[Deefa]

The D2 met quite a few of these requirements which is why I’m keeping mine for a bit longer. The Grenadier I agree looks to have done so many things right. I had been seriously looking at a 2014/15 Prado but it would be a backward step from the D2 in too many areas, so you never know about a Grenadier……

I think they are going to be a hit. Look at those Suzuki Jimnys, an old boxy shape with still a lot of old style 4x4 features like beam axles. They are a pretty capable little thing and look cool. They can't keep up with the demand for them. I think once the Grenadier is released and a few go on the road it will have a similar reaction. At the open day I spoke to quite a few people who had landrovers currently.

As for the LandCruiser I have a lot of respect for them. I used to work on them sometime ago. Very logically built with a view for ease of maintenance even after the warranty has run out. Consistent genuine parts quality. Unfortunately newer landrover products are anything but easy to work on with no thought of later maintenance. Indeed It seems the engineers went out of their way to make it as hard as possible to access anything. And as for genuine landrover parts they will paste a genuine parts sticker on any cheap crap part they find. ....my experience anyway.

[Tombie]

Land Bruisers stopped being easy to work on once the Blue Flame engines were removed!

The V8 is a pita just like all the new models of all makes.

Complexity comes from emissions and packaging - nobody wants a huge bonnet at expense of interior space, and they don’t want a stupidly long vehicle overall either.

The little Jimny is a cracker, plenty of modified ones around here.

[trout1105]

The D2 met quite a few of these requirements which is why I’m keeping mine for a bit longer. The Grenadier I agree looks to have done so many things right. I had been seriously looking at a 2014/15 Prado but it would be a backward step from the D2 in too many areas, so you never know about a Grenadier……

The D2 and the D1's were light years ahead of the competition when they were first released and are still in front of many of the new 4WD's on the market as far as comfort and refinement goes BUT they are now getting pretty long in the tooth and reliabillity is now a pretty big issue with them.

IF it was possible to buy a brand spanking new D2a at the moment I wouldn't hesitate to put my hand up for one.

Having said all that I will be parting with my D2a because We are getting rid of the van and we no longer need both 4WD's and we certainly dont need 2x $900 per year rego's So I will be keeping the 79 Series as my main battle tank for my fishing expeditions.

My reasoning for this is;

1. The 79 has far more "Grunt" than the D2a which is handy when towing a boat off/on road.
2. the 79 with the canopy and the roofrack can carry Much more gear and supplies than the D2a (Even with all the rear seating removed)
3. The 79 uses a lot less fuel than the 4l V8 in the D2a.
4, The 79 has prooven itself over the years to be light years ahead reliabillity wise over the D2a and as all of my trips will now be "Solo" reliabillity is Very important as before we always took 2x 4WD's on a trip.

It will be sad to see the D2a go but even after throwing over 20k at it with repairs and replacing failed components it is only a matter of when not if it will let me down again.
I will also miss the comfort and quiet of the D2a, What I wont miss is waiting on the side of the road for a flat top.

[Vern]

Chop the Y62,and get her a new one.
Then you will both be sorted[bighmmm][biggrin]Well she has informed me she just wants a run around and i can have the y62, so give it a couple of years, and i may just do that[emoji1]

[scarry]

Land Bruisers stopped being easy to work on once the Blue Flame engines were removed!

The V8 is a pita just like all the new models of all

All modern engines are a complicated PITA,particularly diesels,unfortunately.At least that V8 doesn’t have timing belts.But it has other nuisances[bighmmm][biggrin]

But on a slightly different topic,if you want to run cables through the body,fit mods,etc,etc,the Tojo is so much easier to work on than any lateish model LR,even D3/4.Internal trims,dash parts,etc,come out and clip back in so easily,there is also heaps of room behind the trims.Large unused grommets in both sides of the firewall,and other places in the rear are also well placed to be used for cables,etc.Large second battery will fit easily under bonnet in the LC variants.
The rear load area trims have that much room behind them in the 200 many fit an ARB air compresser behind them,or a 200A slimline lithium.

Talk to any shop that has had a new Defender in for mods,an absolute nightmare and very time consuming.

[ramblingboy42]

it isn't really the dark side is it....maybe more light and commonsense prevailing there.

I haven't looked back since , not one warranty claim, not one service issue , not one , not even simplest reliability issue . I broke a passenger grab handle swinging into/out of the car and the spare wheel winch faded so far.

If you owned any 2012 Land Rover product , what problems have you incurred in the ten years?

Sleep easy on the dark side.

[Tombie]

it isn't really the dark side is it....maybe more light and commonsense prevailing there.

I haven't looked back since , not one warranty claim, not one service issue , not one , not even simplest reliability issue . I broke a passenger grab handle swinging into/out of the car and the spare wheel winch faded so far.

If you owned any 2012 Land Rover product , what problems have you incurred in the ten years?

Sleep easy on the dark side.

I can answer that on a 2011 LR product.
I’ve replaced an Alternator [emoji41]

On my last work vehicle - well the list is about 8 pages of service repair reports.

On the new one (18k old Ranger) it’s had 3 warranty issues, still cannot get the reversing camera to function properly, it’s noisy, uncomfortable and drives like the QE2 in a large swell.

It also has all the tech of a Casio watch and yet plays up quite often requiring restarts to clear.

To date, and still valid, on every 4wd trip with the local club - the LR has been the one of two brands to not require work to continue or recovery.
The other - a Hyundai Terracan that’s been across Oz countless times.

[Tombie]

Point being “grass is always greener”

How many times do we see people moving on vehicles that need say $10k of work done after 10-15 years of heavy use. Only to go into hock for 90-130k for a “reliable” vehicle.

I’ve just midlifed my D4. Only components remaining are the strut assemblies (coming) and it will drive just like it did in 2011. I’ve checked my wiring loom, I’ve serviced it regularly. I do not use cheap parts or components.

I’ll replace the A pillar plastics soon for shiny new ones for aesthetics… and I’ll keep the new car repayments in the travel/target sports fund!

[bln]

I went to the Dark Side once for two years. I became a TOYBoy and purchased a new PRADO. During this time I would look longingly at Land-Rovers. I felt soulless, regretful, unfullfilled and filled with remorse for going to the Dark Side. My 4WDing lacked excitement and became ho-hum. The PRADO didn't provide me with the same enjoyment that I got from driving my previous Disco II. It turned out to be less reliable as well with a terrible motor that "pinged" when cold, oil leaked, handbrake mechanism falling to bits on the Oodnadatta track and the inner body skin cracked on the Mitchells Falls track. The car rattled like a bucket of bolts and needed a lift kit to have an acceptable ground clearance for the Simpson. Then the shocker bushes continually chewed out (3 sets).
I don't know much about the land-cruisers (never driven one) but I think that they look ugly. I like the look of all Land Rovers. I don't know much about the 70 series other than you have to spend a fortune on them to get them to be OK. Its the only 4WD that I know of that has a different wheel base between the front and back axles other than a gogglemobil.

I do know that I would miss not having a Land Rover - the heart and soul of 4WDing.

[Deefa]

I went to the Dark Side once for two years. I became a TOYBoy and purchased a new PRADO. During this time I would look longingly at Land-Rovers. I felt soulless, regretful, unfullfilled and filled with remorse for going to the Dark Side. My 4WDing lacked excitement and became ho-hum. The PRADO didn't provide me with the same enjoyment that I got from driving my previous Disco II. It turned out to be less reliable as well with a terrible motor that "pinged" when cold, oil leaked, handbrake mechanism falling to bits on the Oodnadatta track and the inner body skin cracked on the Mitchells Falls track. The car rattled like a bucket of bolts and needed a lift kit to have an acceptable ground clearance for the Simpson. Then the shocker bushes continually chewed out (3 sets).
I don't know much about the land-cruisers (never driven one) but I think that they look ugly. I like the look of all Land Rovers. I don't know much about the 70 series other than you have to spend a fortune on them to get them to be OK. Its the only 4WD that I know of that has a different wheel base between the front and back axles other than a gogglemobil.

I do know that I would miss not having a Land Rover - the heart and soul of 4WDing.

Ha ha, Gogglemobil , I'm old enough to remember that ad! Not the dart!

[Jim Nicholson]

I love my defender - it’s interesting. Like all the best cars made they are not the most reliable but they are awesome to drive and look at. Alternatives just seem boring in comparison.

After driving land cruisers, patrols, hilux, defenders just have that ‘thing’ that makes you feel something.

However, it does have that worry - will it break down this trip. Always in the back of your mind. Will that rover diff be up to it this time? Will my fuel pump die? Will my head gasket blow? You don’t ask these questions in many other cars. That will be the reason I will sell. While any car can have failures, it is definitely less likely in a Toyota. I know people say it’s all down to maintenance, but I think it speaks for itself, go outback and most of the cars are Toyota’s. Land Rover really missed an opportunity to make the new defender a more reliable old defender similar to a 70 series but more interesting.

Owned my TD5 1999 Defender since new and only suffered one breakdown due to a dealership mechanic putting a map pocket tech screw into the pos.battery lead. Cannot blame the brand for that break down in the middle of the Vic desert. Done all my own servicing since and she is still going strong. Unfortunately my 2008 work car ( Diesel Toyota Prado ) has become too uneconomical to repair with a failed Auto box and collapsed front suspension wishbones.

[Tombie]

I love my defender - it’s interesting. Like all the best cars made they are not the most reliable but they are awesome to drive and look at. Alternatives just seem boring in comparison.

After driving land cruisers, patrols, hilux, defenders just have that ‘thing’ that makes you feel something.

However, it does have that worry - will it break down this trip. Always in the back of your mind. Will that rover diff be up to it this time? Will my fuel pump die? Will my head gasket blow? You don’t ask these questions in many other cars. That will be the reason I will sell. While any car can have failures, it is definitely less likely in a Toyota. I know people say it’s all down to maintenance, but I think it speaks for itself, go outback and most of the cars are Toyota’s. Land Rover really missed an opportunity to make the new defender a more reliable old defender similar to a 70 series but more interesting.

What’s this worry you speak of?

I’ve ran 35s on Rover diffs for 18 years without a problem and it was only brought to an end by a heavy handed Son driving poorly.

Will the fuel pump fail? Well on my Falcon it did, on my GT it did, on my work Hilux it did.

On several vehicles the oil pump failed, I’ve had oil senders blow out losing oil, electrical gremlins in a Toyota that took 2 years to diagnose and sort.

3 steering racks, 2 radiators, an Intercooler, welded up chassis more times than I have fingers, replaced an ecu, 2 transfer cases, multiple transmission repairs, 6 ABS/TC failures, dashes that leak dust and rattle the plastic apart. I don’t thrash my work vehicles.

A colleague has replaced 2 diffs, 3 CV joints, a door!, seat belts, indicators that just fall out and at 18 months it needed a new windscreen - only to find beneath the trim was full of rust….

Reasons Land Rovers have issues:
- **** mechanics
- cheap pattern parts
- cheap owners [emoji4]
- lack of mechanical sympathy
- used for purpose; subjected to more stress
- influenced by history (people still talk of Lucas when a D4 needs a light bulb)

What is true? Even those polls don’t cut it - the items that make up the issues include things like light bulbs and a person with a $130k+ RRS etc will certainly complain.

[Deefa]

Hi Tombie, Certainly agree with you that there is a lot of cheap parts out there. Lots are fine, but some are absolute crap. Unfortunately Land rover put out to tender for "Genuine" parts and end up putting stickers of genuine on crap parts. So you end up paying 3 or 4 times more for the same stuff you can buy on ebay . They just don't give a damn , especially for the older vehicles. Worst is they consider anything old being over 5 years old.

Ive had my Defender off the road now for 5 months and I am keen on pulling it down and fixing her again soon. Like you I do all my own maintenance. But time poor at the moment.

BTW i am probably in your category of cheap owners!

[Deefa]

Tombie, you speak of GT ? What GT is this....

[JoshV12345]

What’s this worry you speak of?

I’ve ran 35s on Rover diffs for 18 years without a problem and it was only brought to an end by a heavy handed Son driving poorly.

Reasons Land Rovers have issues:
- **** mechanics
- cheap pattern parts
- cheap owners [emoji4]
- lack of mechanical sympathy
- used for purpose; subjected to more stress
- influenced by history (people still talk of Lucas when a D4 needs a light bulb)

What is true? Even those polls don’t cut it - the items that make up the issues include things like light bulbs and a person with a $130k+ RRS etc will certainly complain.

I worry about rover diffs because they're not fit for purpose - it was something designed for a lighter vehicle with less power and they never updated it for the newer cars. I know other cars have their faults/failures but you don't really hear about patrols/cruisers etc blowing a front diff unless they're abused. Which leads into lack of mechanical sympathy - if they just designed the diff to be the correct strength for the application, it wouldn't be an issue.

Spare parts seem hit and miss to get good ones, even if marked as 'genuine'. I don't know about other people on here but I actually don't mind working on my car and doing jobs myself but it would be nice if you did something, it works then it actually lasted (after you've paid through the nose for 'genuine' parts). I think I've forgotten what it's like to own a 'normal' car that just requires a service once or twice a year and that's that - it's become the new normal to always have a job coming up on it.

All that being said, I'm not complaining otherwise I'd just sell it, and I love it too much to sell.

[Arch]

What’s this worry you speak of?


Reasons Land Rovers have issues:
- **** mechanics
- cheap pattern parts
- cheap owners [emoji4]
- lack of mechanical sympathy
- used for purpose; subjected to more stress
- influenced by history (people still talk of Lucas when a D4 needs a light bulb)



I would suggest these are the reasons and brand has issues, particularly the lack of mechanical sympathy.

A fair bit of drinking the Land Rover kool-aid on this thread. Nearly as much as over on LCOOL [tonguewink]

I've been able to drive a couple of the Chinese brands for work, they are surprisingly good for the money. If I were to do say the Canning again, I take one of those over a new Defender. Both have about the same chance of doing the distance and both would cost the same to recover on the back of a truck if something went wrong. The china ute though is a 1/3rd the cost to purchase and I wouldn't care so much about the scratches.

[shack]

I worry about rover diffs because they're not fit for purpose - it was something designed for a lighter vehicle with less power and they never updated it for the newer cars. I know other cars have their faults/failures but you don't really hear about patrols/cruisers etc blowing a front diff unless they're abused. Which leads into lack of mechanical sympathy - if they just designed the diff to be the correct strength for the application, it wouldn't be an issue.

Spare parts seem hit and miss to get good ones, even if marked as 'genuine'. I don't know about other people on here but I actually don't mind working on my car and doing jobs myself but it would be nice if you did something, it works then it actually lasted (after you've paid through the nose for 'genuine' parts). I think I've forgotten what it's like to own a 'normal' car that just requires a service once or twice a year and that's that - it's become the new normal to always have a job coming up on it.

All that being said, I'm not complaining otherwise I'd just sell it, and I love it too much to sell.We have numerous land Rovers, only one has had any diff work-and that was a half shaft, most of them are between 3 and 500 thousand km.

As far as mountain climbing, creek crossing, and cross axle stuff goes, they are indeed fit for purpose (diffs).

The problem now is most owners have tried to turn them into comp cars, and use them as such, Nissan diffs are indeed stronger, the chassis obviously not! -GU.

They overheat on demand, and are agricultural at best.

Toyota's are great, around here they like bums, everyone has one.

Like most Japanese stuff the build quality is excellent, but they still break.

Cracked chassis, cracked diff housings, injectors obviously.

Part of the problem as Tombie said, is that a lot of LR owners are "cheap" , at least compared to some other brands.

Neighbour just spent $8k on one, didn't even blink, because it's bulletproof and nothing ever breaks.....??

That was mainly drive-line stuff.

If the motor let go, he'd just replace it.

Another neighbour, 100 series 4.2, best 4wd ever built, "never had an issue" he said.

Saw it in town blowing black smoke everywhere, caught up with them to mention, thanked me... Both went our separate ways.

Next time I saw him asked about it, it was the injector pump, his mate standing next to him went off, he didn't know they had replaced it.... Again, 2 injector pumps, a set of injectors, issues with the steering which cost thousands, but it's bulletproof??

Then they bought a 200 series.

If I had a bulletproof vest that let say 40% of the bullet's through, I'd be cheesed off.

But then...I own a land Rover.

[Tombie]

I like LR cool-aid

Having said that I spend a lot of time in other “reliable” brands and none has lived up to it.

I do smile every time I get back in the Landy

[Arch]

I like LR cool-aid

Having said that I spend a lot of time in other “reliable” brands and none has lived up to it.

I do smile every time I get back in the Landy

It has its own special flavour.

The kool-aid syndrome is something to be mindful of though, you dont want to sound like a landcruiser driver.

I love my RRS but its not the first car I'd jump into for an outback trek. I have all the admiration for those who do though.

[Tombie]

It has its own special flavour.

The kool-aid syndrome is something to be mindful of though, you dont want to sound like a landcruiser driver.

I love my RRS but its not the first car I'd jump into for an outback trek. I have all the admiration for those who do though.

For an outback trek - not a trip - I’d build a “for purpose” Light Truck [emoji41]

For a zip up a track or across a broad part of Australia knowing it would only be a few weeks - I’d happily take any vehicle I knew the servicing and history of.

[loanrangie]

For an outback trek - not a trip - I’d build a “for purpose” Light Truck [emoji41]

For a zip up a track or across a broad part of Australia knowing it would only be a few weeks - I’d happily take any vehicle I knew the servicing and history of.A canter 4x4 or other similar light truck is really starting to appeal to me the more I see them.

[DiscoMick]

Our 2009 Defender has had the clutch replaced because the springs started rattling, but it still worked.
Other than that it's just been servicing and maintenance.
I could write a VERY long post about the history of problems with the BIL's 80 series Landcruiser.

it isn't really the dark side is it....maybe more light and commonsense prevailing there.

I haven't looked back since , not one warranty claim, not one service issue , not one , not even simplest reliability issue . I broke a passenger grab handle swinging into/out of the car and the spare wheel winch faded so far.

If you owned any 2012 Land Rover product , what problems have you incurred in the ten years?

Sleep easy on the dark side.

[scarry]

Our 2009 Defender has had the clutch replaced because the springs started rattling, but it still worked.
Other than that it's just been servicing and maintenance.
I could write a VERY long post about the history of problems with the BIL's 80 series Landcruiser.

Wait and see how the Puma is going once its the same sort of age and K's the 80 is now,the 80 probably getting on for 27yrs old plus.
I bet it has had many owners with unknown history as well.

Talking about 80's,have a look at what they are worth,then compare that to a D1 of the same age,condition,and K's[bighmmm]

[shack]

Wait and see how the Puma is going once its the same sort of age and K's the 80 is now,the 80 probably getting on for 27yrs old plus.
I bet it has had many owners with unknown history as well.

Talking about 80's,have a look at what they are worth,then compare that to a D1 of the same age,condition,and K's[bighmmm]Yep, and I'd still rather have a D1.....

It doesn't make sense I know!

[one_iota]

Wait and see how the Puma is going once its the same sort of age and K's the 80 is now,the 80 probably getting on for 27yrs old plus.
I bet it has had many owners with unknown history as well.

Talking about 80's,have a look at what they are worth,then compare that to a D1 of the same age,condition,and K's[bighmmm]


Let's add some flesh to the bones and some humor whilst remaining on the topic (for the moment):


Toyota LandCruiser 80 Series common problems and solutions - Unsealed 4X4 - Issue 066 (https://magazine.unsealed4x4.com.au/unsealed-4x4-issue-066/toyota_landcruiser_80_series_common_problems_and_s olutions)

[one_iota]

I like LR cool-aid

Having said that I spend a lot of time in other “reliable” brands and none has lived up to it.

I do smile every time I get back in the Landy


Not many vehicles have the cachet that the classic Defender does. I saw an immaculate Toyota FJ40 parked at Woolworths in Lithgow...I got it as much as I get my Land Rover.

[scarry]

Yep, and I'd still rather have a D1.....

It doesn't make sense I know!

D1 is still a lot of car for the money,as is the D2.

[Deefa]

New 300 series Landcrusier anyone? The advertising jingle is so bloody annoying I wouldn't buy one even if I had money to burn.

[scarry]

Let's add some flesh to the bones and some humor whilst remaining on the topic (for the moment):


Toyota LandCruiser 80 Series common problems and solutions - Unsealed 4X4 - Issue 066 (https://magazine.unsealed4x4.com.au/unsealed-4x4-issue-066/toyota_landcruiser_80_series_common_problems_and_s olutions)

Something not quite right there.

Only 5 issues,one caused by aftermarket wheels?

[JoshV12345]

Let's add some flesh to the bones and some humor whilst remaining on the topic (for the moment):


Toyota LandCruiser 80 Series common problems and solutions - Unsealed 4X4 - Issue 066 (https://magazine.unsealed4x4.com.au/unsealed-4x4-issue-066/toyota_landcruiser_80_series_common_problems_and_s olutions)

Considering how old 80’s are now, that’s not too bad. Compare that to newer defenders - td5 and puma. You have:
- injector harness issues
- oil cooler failures
- head gasket/head failures
- fuel pump failures
- harmonic balancer failures
- oil pump bolt issues
- clutch issues
- output shaft wear issues
- drive flange spline wear/fretting
- centre diff shim destruction
- rover diff destruction
- probably other stuff I’ve forgotten

Not even getting into the extra electrics of a disco - EAS, ABS, ACE three amigos etc

That being said, with the initial price difference between a land cruiser and a Land Rover (well maybe not these days) you could fix all those issues and have something just as reliable…possibly.

[Tombie]

They forgot:

Valve adjustments - constant battle
CV failures
Swivels
Electrical - especially electric centre diff
Rattles - OMG they’re bad
Gearbox 5th (jumping out all the time)
Leaks - worse than a D1 (almost)
Clutch shudder
Headlights - candles are brighter
Alternator bearings
Water pumps - they love them
Fuel pumps
Brake shudder and uneven wear

[Tombie]

Considering how old 80’s are now, that’s not too bad. Compare that to newer defenders - td5 and puma. You have:
- injector harness issues
- oil cooler failures
- head gasket/head failures
- fuel pump failures
- harmonic balancer failures
- oil pump bolt issues
- clutch issues
- output shaft wear issues
- drive flange spline wear/fretting
- centre diff shim destruction
- rover diff destruction
- probably other stuff I’ve forgotten

Not even getting into the extra electrics of a disco - EAS, ABS, ACE three amigos etc

That being said, with the initial price difference between a land cruiser and a Land Rover (well maybe not these days) you could fix all those issues and have something just as reliable…possibly.

Remember the 80 ceased production as the D2 became the new model in the UK (a year before Oz got it)…

The only model Disco you can compare it to is the D1 year for year.

[trout1105]

The only model Disco you can compare it to is the D1 year for year.

Then look at todays resale values of the D1 and the 80 Series[bigwhistle]

[scarry]

They forgot:

Valve adjustments - constant battle
CV failures
Swivels
Electrical - especially electric centre diff
Rattles - OMG they’re bad
Gearbox 5th (jumping out all the time)
Leaks - worse than a D1 (almost)
Clutch shudder
Headlights - candles are brighter
Alternator bearings
Water pumps - they love them
Fuel pumps
Brake shudder and uneven wear

Our D4 would have had a list longer than that in 10 yrs,my sons Puma would have had a list twice as long while under warranty and the issues continued well after the warranty period.

[scarry]

Then look at todays resale values of the D1 and the 80 Series[bigwhistle]

That’s because the Jap/Thi vehicles have so many problems,no one wants them.[tonguewink]

[JoshV12345]

Remember the 80 ceased production as the D2 became the new model in the UK (a year before Oz got it)…

The only model Disco you can compare it to is the D1 year for year.

That’s kind of what I’m getting at, if you compare a Land Rover - maybe I should pick the defender as there’s less electronics and it’s more basic, similar to an 80 series - that is 10-20 years NEWER than an 80 series, they have a list just as long if not longer of issues (some quite bad and expensive to fix).

There has to be a reason you see more Toyotas touring/over landing/mining/4wd rentals/any place that requires a robust 4wd than anything else these days, it’s because they can be driven on bad roads, by bad drivers and still last a long time. I know my Land Rover could do the same trip but it would require more maintenance and a lot more mechanical sympathy.

We did cape York last year and the only car we saw broken down was a land cruiser with a broken rear axle. Some would say ‘see they’re not that reliable, you didn’t see a Land Rover broken down’ but in reality there’s just countless land cruisers, there’s bound to be 1 with issues. I could count the number of land rovers I saw on 1 hand.

[shack]

That’s kind of what I’m getting at, if you compare a Land Rover - maybe I should pick the defender as there’s less electronics and it’s more basic, similar to an 80 series - that is 10-20 years NEWER than an 80 series, they have a list just as long if not longer of issues (some quite bad and expensive to fix).

There has to be a reason you see more Toyotas touring/over landing/mining/4wd rentals/any place that requires a robust 4wd than anything else these days, it’s because they can be driven on bad roads, by bad drivers and still last a long time. I know my Land Rover could do the same trip but it would require more maintenance and a lot more mechanical sympathy.

We did cape York last year and the only car we saw broken down was a land cruiser with a broken rear axle. Some would say ‘see they’re not that reliable, you didn’t see a Land Rover broken down’ but in reality there’s just countless land cruisers, there’s bound to be 1 with issues. I could count the number of land rovers I saw on 1 hand.You are right, we should all sell our land Rovers and close the forum.

Cheers
James

[Tombie]

Then look at todays resale values of the D1 and the 80 Series[bigwhistle]

D1 was $40k
80 was double that.

Worst thing is LR owners being tight arses won’t fix things properly [emoji3] and just devalue their own brand!

[Tombie]

That’s kind of what I’m getting at, if you compare a Land Rover - maybe I should pick the defender as there’s less electronics and it’s more basic, similar to an 80 series - that is 10-20 years NEWER than an 80 series, they have a list just as long if not longer of issues (some quite bad and expensive to fix).

There has to be a reason you see more Toyotas touring/over landing/mining/4wd rentals/any place that requires a robust 4wd than anything else these days, it’s because they can be driven on bad roads, by bad drivers and still last a long time. I know my Land Rover could do the same trip but it would require more maintenance and a lot more mechanical sympathy.

We did cape York last year and the only car we saw broken down was a land cruiser with a broken rear axle. Some would say ‘see they’re not that reliable, you didn’t see a Land Rover broken down’ but in reality there’s just countless land cruisers, there’s bound to be 1 with issues. I could count the number of land rovers I saw on 1 hand.

There’s 2 reasons.

Marketing & Perception
Really good fleet deals

Our mining fleet doesn’t have Toyotas anymore!

[Tombie]

Our D4 would have had a list longer than that in 10 yrs,my sons Puma would have had a list twice as long while under warranty and the issues continued well after the warranty period.

And knowing N=2 in my case

Neither of ours has a list. Not even a sticky note!

[scarry]

D1 was $40k
80 was double that.

Worst thing is LR owners being tight arses won’t fix things properly [emoji3] and just devalue their own brand!

Mid spec 80 in 1995 was around $45K to $60K

What was a D1 mid spec in those days?$40K ?

Its the dealers that dont do LR any favours,unfortunately.I think the tight arse comment is 100% correct,but not only for LR's.

One of my brothers has had a '93 D1 since '94,has now almost reached 400 000Km.Petrol.

So virtually a one owner,and only had one person ever do any repairs and servicing,as he does it all himself.

It has certainly had its fair share of issues,last being another alternator,the 3rd since he has had it and all sorts of electrical grmlins,which ended being the wiring harness around the coil falling apart
Probably weeping heads and replacement cams was the biggest issue,apart from oil leaks from almost every part that had oil in it.

But we have to remember these vehicles,whatever the brand, are around 30 yrs old,many have huge mileage,and have probably had numerous owners,so the servicing,and maintenance history on most of them is unknown,or fabricated.

[JoshV12345]

D1 was $40k
80 was double that.

Worst thing is LR owners being tight arses wonÂ’t fix things properly [emoji3] and just devalue their own brand!

In my case IÂ’m not trying to devalue my Land Rover, I know I prefer to drive a Land Rover over any other 4wd which is why IÂ’ve got one, but that doesnÂ’t mean that reliability is its strong point. I definitely spend the big money on mine, not sure about other people.

[ozscott]

In my case IÂ’m not trying to devalue my Land Rover, I know I prefer to drive a Land Rover over any other 4wd which is why IÂ’ve got one, but that doesnÂ’t mean that reliability is its strong point. I definitely spend the big money on mine, not sure about other people.Man there's some real truth in that. We use 'preventative maintenance' ([emoji1787][emoji106]) because we love them. They have ability, character, charm often lacking to the same extent elsewhere. And preventative maintenance certainly helps keep them in cooeee of the reliability of typically abused and annatended to Toyota, Nissan, Mitsubishi etc. Cheers

[Deefa]

Getting a little off track with the thread. The question is what do you do as our vehicles get older and are therefore less reliable? It is not a debate as to what 30 year old car is more reliable than another 30 year old car. Do you keep spending money and time or update to something else? Unfortunately in my opinion landrover are now a luxury car brand with no vehicle utilitrian or affordable in their line up. The new defender is great and capable, but certainly not simple or able to be repaired by the owner. Utilitarian it is not. They don't even make a ute now. Period. I love my defender and am willing to overlook it's shortcomings because it's such a timeless and different car. But there is a limit, as owning an older one you tend to spend weekend s working on it. Fine if you are retired I guess, but difficult if you are running a business for example. As an example my friend bought a tritton duel cab new and sold his D 2 . Yawn, another duel cab amongst thousands. Misses the disco but doesn't miss the maintenance.

[one_iota]

Man there's some real truth in that. We use 'preventative maintenance' ([emoji1787][emoji106]) because we love them. They have ability, character, charm often lacking to the same extent elsewhere. And preventative maintenance certainly helps keep them in cooeee of the reliability of typically abused and annatended to Toyota, Nissan, Mitsubishi etc. Cheers

Without wishing to be existential (yes really) the question is not who but why?

Why did we buy a Land Rover in the first place? Many here have had many (masochism?) and yet come here to complain about them.

I think that answers some questions but everyone's answer will be different.

Don't try to get out of it! Because we are all suckers.

[Vern]

Getting a little off track with the thread. The question is what do you do as our vehicles get older and are therefore less reliable? It is not a debate as to what 30 year old car is more reliable than another 30 year old car. Do you keep spending money and time or update to something else? Unfortunately in my opinion landrover are now a luxury car brand with no vehicle utilitrian or affordable in their line up. The new defender is great and capable, but certainly not simple or able to be repaired by the owner. Utilitarian it is not. They don't even make a ute now. Period. I love my defender and am willing to overlook it's shortcomings because it's such a timeless and different car. But there is a limit, as owning an older one you tend to spend weekend s working on it. Fine if you are retired I guess, but difficult if you are running a business for example. As an example my friend bought a tritton duel cab new and sold his D 2 . Yawn, another duel cab amongst thousands. Misses the disco but doesn't miss the maintenance.You got it in the last line.

So i have a 3 year old jap 4wd, a 9 year old korean van, a 37 year old landrover. Now the landrover looks cool, but sooooo much work needs doing that the 3 year old jap 4wd has become soo much more appealing. Now the korean van, it just keeps on trucking with very little maintenance at all.
I'm losing heart with the green oval

[ozscott]

You got it in the last line.

So i have a 3 year old jap 4wd, a 9 year old korean van, a 37 year old landrover. Now the landrover looks cool, but sooooo much work needs doing that the 3 year old jap 4wd has become soo much more appealing. Now the korean van, it just keeps on trucking with very little maintenance at all.
I'm losing heart with the green ovalSpot on mate. It is interesting. When I had more time to do my own maintenance I enjoyed it. Could also convince myself that there wasn't much to do. Madw sure it was done very well and when I didn't have the ability I paid dearly to get specialist LR guys to do it. These days I don't have the time with work and what time I do have I prefer not to be troubleshooting a vehicle...adding fun stuff to a vehicle is a different thing however. But overall if you end up having less time for preventative maintenance and troubleshooting or prefer other things then out of warranty older Land Rovers do lose a bit of their appeal. If you have the time and desire or are happy to pay someone to do it for you then great, reap the benefits. For me my D2 is still with me for the fun of the odd run and to have a spare vehicle that the family can use and, let's face it, it is worth more as a good spare than to sell. And I do get attached to cars and the adventures in them [emoji1787]. Cheers

[scarry]

You got it in the last line.

So i have a 3 year old jap 4wd, a 9 year old korean van, a 37 year old landrover. Now the landrover looks cool, but sooooo much work needs doing that the 3 year old jap 4wd has become soo much more appealing. Now the korean van, it just keeps on trucking with very little maintenance at all.
I'm losing heart with the green oval

If you dont want it,just drop it off up the road and i will take care of it[wink11]

[Tombie]

I’m treating my vehicle like the heavy assets at work.

Service correctly, then mid-life.

Just trickling along doing bits and pieces as they let go is an exercise in frustration and feels like a never ending cycle.

Whereas planning a large refit whilst a bit more expensive at the time is far more effective.

One example: Cooling systems in my vehicles get a complete overhaul/replacement in one go. Prevents chasing the next problem.

Another is my suspension, every bush, bolt, arm, strut assembly is coming out for replacement.
Will be good to go again after a days work.

[Deefa]

Looks like you have the right idea Tombie. Just wish I had the time to do this sort of thing.

Im using the Defender for business and cant justify running a 20 year old Defender that's needing that sort of maintenance. My accountant has pointed out that spending many dollars on a 20 year old car is false economy with the depreciation and tax write that a new car can offer. Gets embarrassing when I go to a clients property and she leaves a little calling card of oil on their new driveway!

But also the Defender is my play car as well for holidays and off road trips. Thinking now is to hold on to her while I can afford the rego as a second car.

[TimNZ]

I looked around a fair bit for something to replace my 2015 110, but just couldn't find anything that was going to work for me (first world problems I know). I've decided to stick with the Defender, well, sort of, I've been driving a Series 3 Stage One for the last 18 months while the Defender is on the healing bench getting a couple of small upgrades. (fixing the squeaky clutch and leaking radiator etc). The Series 3's been great, as a daily driver it's not terrible. (Has a bigger drinking problem than I do though).

As for the Toyotas... don't know. Here's a pic of my 110 next to the unbreakable Toyota, (currently broken):


https://i.imgur.com/OObVi29.jpg

Cheers,