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prelude
26th August 2021, 06:27 PM
I guess most of us have been confronted with it lately; unavailable spare parts, and I am not talking about the chinese flu having any part in that. What follows is a bit of a rant from my pov :)

30 odd years ago I started my adventures in motoring and as many people do I bought my first "banger" for the low price of 1k, this is before the euro. Not being native to .au it was not a holden but a honda. A prelude to be exact. the 1.8 ex was at the time of my purchase around 13 years old and ran just fine! In those days (80's vehicle) japanese cars, especially sports cars were way ahead of the curve. It cemented my love for the brand and japanese car brands in general. Funny story, when it came to buy my fist 4bee I bought a landrover [bigrolf]

Of course, rust was always a thing so I learned how to fix metal work over time. I am still not great at it but I can fix pretty much anything on petrol powered cars these days. Diesel and diesel pumps are a whole different story... Anyway, at 13 years old it needed some parts over time and whenever it did I could find brand new parts at my local Honda dealership and half a dozen imitation parts for my car. After prelude that followed more cars of course and spare parts were never really a problem, at least, obtaining them.

My last (before the rangie) big experiment was a honda legend from 1998 that I bought in 2012. Spare parts were again not a problem and it drove like nothing else. Fast forward a few years and the cheap banger legend I bought as an experiment was on it's way out and I bought myself a P38 from 1998. With a new high paying income and after a crappy divorce I was happy to spend 20K on the old girl fixing her up and improving everything I could find. Parts were not a real problem and the pricing was reasonable. Also, the rover V8 being so much loved and used had every possible option of rebuild and tuning available. Of course, having modified the P38 to be a tourer and off roader I decided to buy myself a new Legend as a faily driver, the facelift from 1999 this time and I was happy that I could go for years in those cars from that point on. I even converted my new girlfriend to the idea and she to drives a Legend as well as a mate of mine.

Then the "fun" started. The cars by now were 20 years old and even though 10's of thousands of those vehicles still drive around in the US as the acura RL (so there is a market for parts I should think) the parts supply started drying up, fast. My previous experience of parts being available quickly turned into frustration. The first things to go were the bumpers and panels, followed by trim and finally thing like the brakes, (not the pads) CV joints, aircon parts, bearings, you name it, all disappeared from the catalogues like snow before a hot burning sun.

With my recent land rover experience I was a bit surprised that those parts dried up so quickly but of course, lo and behold, the P38 parts bin is rapidly draining as well. It started with the VCU that is simply no longer being produced. There is a way to refurbish them which is a blessing since that is not a part someone could machine easily. Next up were the wheel bearings. From land rover you need to buy a whole hub and those have pretty much disappeared over here, not sure if that is rona related but there it is. There is still some britpart stuff around but no more originals. The separate bearings were offered from several brands, including the original from timken. That too has stopped. SKF still have them in their portfolio as a complete set (including new C clip and bolts) but when my latest wheel bearing gave way I looked into buying 4 decent brand bearings to do all 4 corners (since I used birtpart stuff before) but they would cost met 900 euro's (that's $1500 au?) and they are not even in stock but need to be ordered. This usually means that shortly from now they will be removed from the catalogue.

So I am left to wonder. As a car enthusiast and PETROL head, having lost my love for diesel a long time ago (you can't get anywhere anymore with a diesel in europe) and not being on board with duracell gokarts... What is a man to do?

I know fossil fuel is pretty much end of life but I guess with some effort it can last me at least till my retirement. I am not against electric motors but not powered by batteries. Also I do not like most of the modern gadgets in vehicles, not because I am a grumpy old git but I feel like losing control to driving and owning a vehicle and pretty soon privacy is going to be a concern with all those 5g connected playstations on wheels.

Having said that, an older vehicle is and remains to be my choice. I do not mind grabbing the spanners every now and then and to be fair, it adds to my enjoyment even. But, no spare parts means no working vehicle.

Recently a mate of mine bought a Jeep wrangler TJ. A fun little rig that he will use as a daily driver and tag along with us on some touring. Of course he bought the cheapest one he could afford and, well, it's not a lemon but it does require a lot of work. We started a body of chassis resto and started hacking away at it. Even in my small european country most parts are available and when you open up ebay or amazon I can find literally -every- single frigging part I need. Each section of the chassis is available as a rust repair piece etc etc. And the prices are ridiculously low, compared to honda pricing and even land rover. It made this grumpy old buggers cold heart warm up :)

With that experience under my belt I started thinking about my own vehicle future whilst sipping a nice scotch by a campfire on a warm evening. What could I possibly buy that would suit me and be repairable "indefinitely". After much thought I could come up with only a handful of options:



land rover
range rover
jeep
mercedes
small enthousiast cars


Any thing I have forgotten?

In case of land rover: either a series or a defender would probably have parts made for it until the cows come home. Mind you, ford has a very bad track record in terms of spares for engines (that's why my mate bought a jeep, he owned a 1998 jaguar XJ with the ford V8 which has NO spares) so the puma is out. I am not sure about the TD5 but certainly the 300tdi is such a loved vehicle that it will always have a supply of parts? I think the rover V8 will also have a support for a very long time to come. The body and chassis are a no brainer since they have been used for eternity so that would certainly always be available?

Range rover, I guess the classics are such collectors items it seems that spares supplies would be ok there too. The P38 might become a new classic but I doubt that it would help. Just too many parts like the VCU that are not easy to produce that would fall off at some point in time

Jeep, as mentioned above, a lot of enthusiasts for those rigs, certainly in the US so there us plenty to be gotten and will be for the foreseeable future me thinks.

Mercedes have a special branch for classics. You can get -anything- there but you need a pretty thick wallet.

Small cars like the 2cv, beetle, mini... There probably always be some niche market like that but it's not what I would want to drive.

Finally, there are a few japanese cars that have had spares available for quite some time but only the landcruiser is the one that comes to mind. the 80 series is pretty old by now but still quite well supported after market it seems due to the huge loyal following. I wonder though that once the cars dry up terrain tamer and the likes will still stock parts for them.

Anyway, a bit of a ramble from my side of the pond. What do you guys think?

Cheers!

-P

AK83
26th August 2021, 08:18 PM
I think that every vehicle made so far, and still yet to be made will eventually see the same situation where the supply of parts will steadily dry up.

The most extreme example of what this means is for example the T model Ford. How many millions made, and parts would be available for sure, but not so readily.
So as a model ages, it's only reasonable that parts get harder to find.

I think even the Jap 80's and GQ's and whatnot will eventually all dry up too, if you think landrovers rust, get a cruiser and whatch it rot away in real time!(like my dads 60 did). Once the rot sets in, best(ie. cheapest) option is to send it to the scrap metal heap.

While Jap off roaders are popular to a high degree, they seem to be more of a 'consumable' than an enthusiast's choice.
As a consumable, when it becomes 'unviable' or when that consumer lusts after more creature comforts or modernity, the 'consumable' get trashed(eventually).

Defender/D1/RRC .. share so much parts it's reasonable to assume that parts availability into the future will last longer than most other vehicle models will. I'm referring to say ~20-30 years into the future.
As RRC values increase, and Defender prices similarly heading into outer space too, people will acquire them for the 'enthusiast' value .. ie. not to use it as a regular consumer will.
They will still require parts .. and those that are common to each should remain relatively easy to get.

TD5, I'd say that parts will become more scarce in the long term. As more folks mistreat them, and they end up as recycled metal, then parts demand will decline, so manufacturing them is not sustainable.

Any part that was common to more than one specific model, or had a very long production run should safely remain in good supply for many years to come.

IIRC manufacturers are compelled to maintain spare parts supply for 10 years after a model has been discontinued(at least here is Aus).

I seriously think that the day will come when some totally elite hacker type will learn to hack into these fully connected Tesla type vehicle, and steals them all 'en masse' all whilst safely tucked away in the basement and remotely drives them all to their destination of choice. The future of car theft won't require anyone to be anywhere near the scene of the crime.

At the moment, the Defender has to be the best candidate as the most future proof vehicle in terms of supply of most parts(including trims and stuff). It seems like there is either a remanufactured part made or an alternative part made for just about ever nook and cranny in the Defer.

But, with the popularisation of the 3D printer, and with the tech only going to get better as time flys past us .. could make the need to buy parts redundant in many ways.

350RRC
26th August 2021, 08:35 PM
...................The P38 might become a new classic but I doubt that it would help. ....................

Anyway, a bit of a ramble from my side of the pond. What do you guys think?

Cheers!

-P

Sounds like something outa 'Hope Dies Last' by Studs Terkel.

Nothing classic about them whatsoever, apart from 'owner loyalty', which seems to have waned in Oz.

DL

Tote
27th August 2021, 08:45 AM
Most American marques seem to have very good support as you have mentioned with just about anything available for Mustangs, Jeeps, and Chev products. The widespread availability of CAD services means that parts which were once rare are now available. Also 3D printing will assist in this realm. I'm not terribly concerned, there have always been unobtanium parts until sufficient demand exists to reproduce them. My BIL sold a second hand heater control panel for an XY that he had left over for $250.00 the other day. Similarly there is much better availability of Land Rover Series one parts now than there was in the 1970s.

Regards,
Tote

Tote
27th August 2021, 08:49 AM
Sounds like something outa 'Hope Dies Last' by Studs Terkel.

Nothing classic about them whatsoever, apart from 'owner loyalty', which seems to have waned in Oz.

DL

Off Topic, youngest daughter wants a Range Rover as her 1st car. The rise in popularity of Classics means they are too expensive and the L320s and L322s are still a bit beyond her price range. P38's fall in the sweet spot but lack desirability ( and economy, and reliability......)

Regards,
Tote

prelude
27th August 2021, 05:39 PM
Having owned several japanese cars over the years and owning one now that has developed "the blister" around the rear wheel arch, (t)rust me [thumbsupbig] I know what they are like. Rust in the brochure is it?

I get the consumer part you are referring to and I guess I want something out of the ordinary, "consume" my vehicle ie daily driving it and such whilst it is heading in the realm of a collectors item.

American brands do seem to have a lot of spares but even there the signs of cheap chinesium are on the wall. Even reputable brands that made replacement parts are now run by the bean counters and the quality is dropping. What is left seems to be quite expensive. Still, I'll take expensive over not available...

3D printing is fine and dandy but I do not see a VCU being printed in, like, forever? That is quite the complex unit to build. The parts -maybe- but metal 3d printers, with a choice of metal type and hardness are some time off I think.

Regarding tesla and the likes being driven away from your front door (silently 'cause electric) I can't say much because NDA but I used to work for BMW and know a bit about their autonomous driving and car "it". All I can say is: this should be fun to watch from a "dumb" vehicle :)

Finally I do agree that the P38's popularity is waning. When I started there still was some activity around the vehicle but these days there is not much. Still, a decent one (like in the state I bought mine back then) will cost up to 4x as much these days! And that with parts availability drying up... ouch.

In any case, with modern cars stuck solidly in the "never to be repaired" category due to all the proprietary electronics the maintainability issue is only bound to get worse. At least them new mongrols are good for the environment, right? [bighmmm]

-P

V8Ian
27th August 2021, 06:02 PM
Honda is one of the worst offenders for poor part supplies and built-in obsolescence, particularly the motorcycle division.

AK83
27th August 2021, 06:26 PM
...

Finally I do agree that the P38's popularity is waning. ....


This is good to know!
I'm going to look into buying up as many as I can afford then.

It's the least popular vehicles that appreciate more so than the popular ones.

Grumbles
27th August 2021, 07:12 PM
Off Topic, ....youngest daughter wants a Range Rover as her 1st car.........
Regards,
Tote

What a well educated, switched on daughter you have raised. Good on you both.[thumbsupbig]

Eevo
27th August 2021, 07:36 PM
Honda is one of the worst offenders for poor part supplies and built-in obsolescence, particularly the motorcycle division.
bmw and ducati come to mind.

350RRC
27th August 2021, 10:08 PM
Off Topic, youngest daughter wants a Range Rover as her 1st car. The rise in popularity of Classics means they are too expensive and the L320s and L322s are still a bit beyond her price range. P38's fall in the sweet spot but lack desirability ( and economy, and reliability......)

Regards,
Tote

D1's are the pick...............RRC chassis and running gear, different body and diesel engine option. Cheeeeeap.

Even available as a 2 door, the future classic. [biggrin][thumbsupbig]

cheers, DL

JDNSW
28th August 2021, 07:05 AM
I have no direct experience, but I was under the impression that most parts for the Ford T were still available? But bear in mind that this would not include most body parts, as except for pressed steel parts like running boards, mudguards etc, the bodies were usually repaired from raw materials rather than 'parts'. But parts are no longer cheap.

RANDLOVER
30th August 2021, 07:36 PM
.................................................
Finally I do agree that the P38's popularity is waning. When I started there still was some activity around the vehicle but these days there is not much. Still, a decent one (like in the state I bought mine back then) will cost up to 4x as much these days! And that with parts availability drying up... ouch.......................... [bighmmm]

-P

Looks like you should've bought two P38's, one for spares.[bigwhistle]

JDNSW
31st August 2021, 06:28 AM
Met my next door neighbour yesterday (on the boundary). He has bought a 'new' tractor, only 18 years old. He told me he wanted to buy an older one that was simpler and easier to work on "but they're all worn out and cost too much".

Tote
31st August 2021, 08:05 AM
Support for tractor parts of all ages is pretty good, we have a 100HP Fiat of early 1980s vintage and I don't thing there is anything I haven't been able to get that I've needed for it. Even the parts support from New Holland (who bought out FiatAgri) is pretty good for the specialist bits, although I believe that some parts like the rear axle were still in production until pretty recently.

Regards,
Tote

JDNSW
31st August 2021, 12:08 PM
Yes, so far I have had no issues getting parts for my 1969 Chamberlain. But his point was not lack of parts, but their condition and price made newer ones more attractive.

Tote
31st August 2021, 01:13 PM
At the risk of sounding like a Defender driver [bigsmile1] there is a real conundrum there. Using our tractor as an example which has around 6000 hours on it later models can be had with more features but the disbenefits of software controlled operation, less tolerance to poor fuel and condensation, more complexity and difficulty to repair start creeping in, particularly when ours might be lucky to do 100 hours a year.

Regards,
Tote

RANDLOVER
31st August 2021, 03:52 PM
If you want to see the old gear can do, see the true story of Alvin Straight Alvin Straight - Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Alvin_Straight) which inspired a movie "The Straight Story" who rode a 1966 John Deere (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Deere) riding mower 240 miles to visit his ailing brother.

prelude
31st August 2021, 04:55 PM
Looks like you should've bought two P38's, one for spares.[bigwhistle]

Oh I have a spare P38 lying around :) However, I already used most of it. My wheel bearings have been replaced several times over (I think water ingress is what is killing them) The prop shafts have been nicked, both rear lights one front, front wing, bumper... the list goes on and on.

In any case. We will see what the future brings. I think I'll stock up on my tools (like a lathe) so that I can fabricate my own stuff when needed.

-P

DiscoMick
1st September 2021, 10:15 AM
EVs should have fewer moving parts to fail, with less servicing required.

JDNSW
1st September 2021, 12:22 PM
less servicing perhaps, but most of the failures I hear of from my family, and for that matter in my own vehicles, are electrical, trim, bodywork, suspension etc, all of which are shared with EVs.

prelude
1st September 2021, 06:47 PM
I can see the charm of having a 4wd with an electric motor on every corner that can be exactly programmed to make x revolutions per minute depending on steering wheel angle. ie, the absolute perfect traction control / locker :)

Other than that I have no (zero) interest in (in particular battery powered) electric vehicles. Although I believe them to possibly be almost maintenance free for the first 5-10 years of their life, beyond that they become a throw away consumer item so I think it is both a blessing and a curse...

Cheers,
-P

3toes
13th September 2021, 06:38 AM
The EU is working on a soon to be introduced law that for safety reasons will only allow original manufacturers parts to be used. That will no doubt have the ‘unintended’ result of forcing a lot of vehicles off the road saving on your maintenance costs

RANDLOVER
13th September 2021, 08:45 AM
I can see the charm of having a 4wd with an electric motor on every corner that can be exactly programmed to make x revolutions per minute depending on steering wheel angle. ie, the absolute perfect traction control / locker :)

Other than that I have no (zero) interest in (in particular battery powered) electric vehicles. Although I believe them to possibly be almost maintenance free for the first 5-10 years of their life, beyond that they become a throw away consumer item so I think it is both a blessing and a curse...

Cheers,
-P

Which will also make it able to do a "tank turn". Tank Turn | Electric Adventure Vehicles | Rivian - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=yzwM8KE2L3I)

Homestar
13th September 2021, 10:08 AM
The EU is working on a soon to be introduced law that for safety reasons will only allow original manufacturers parts to be used. That will no doubt have the ‘unintended’ result of forcing a lot of vehicles off the road saving on your maintenance costs

That will tick off the right to repair crowd something chronic. How would it be enforced? Order parts from OS, fit them and keep driving.

3toes
14th September 2021, 12:50 AM
Manufacturers are very concerned about your safety which is being compromised by non genuine parts. You can repair just have to use OEM parts.

Under existing rules in theory manufacturers to store parts for the first 7 years of a cars life. After that you are on your own. At the moment slack is picked up by non OEM parts. You can guess where this will go

A garage franchised or independent will legally have to fit OEM parts. If they do not and is found or the car is in an accident then liability will fall on garage or person who fitted the part

Homestar
14th September 2021, 06:33 AM
Manufacturers are very concerned about your safety which is being compromised by non genuine parts. You can repair just have to use OEM parts.

Under existing rules in theory manufacturers to store parts for the first 7 years of a cars life. After that you are on your own. At the moment slack is picked up by non OEM parts. You can guess where this will go

A garage franchised or independent will legally have to fit OEM parts. If they do not and is found or the car is in an accident then liability will fall on garage or person who fitted the part

But the accident would have to be caused the part fitted for it to come back on them - and almost no accidents are caused by component failure. I’d do it without issue. It’s a scare campaign funded by the car industry. I bet the repair industry will be fighting this and it isn’t hard to prove non standard parts aren’t unsafe just by looking at the data.

RANDLOVER
14th September 2021, 08:05 AM
Manufacturers are very concerned about your safety which is being compromised by non genuine parts. You can repair just have to use OEM parts.

Under existing rules in theory manufacturers to store parts for the first 7 years of a cars life. After that you are on your own. At the moment slack is picked up by non OEM parts. You can guess where this will go

A garage franchised or independent will legally have to fit OEM parts. If they do not and is found or the car is in an accident then liability will fall on garage or person who fitted the part

I call bulldust on manufacturer's care, if they were really worried they'd be liable for any damage/deaths caused by their vehicles especially self driving ones.

JDNSW
14th September 2021, 09:26 AM
As noted above, very few accidents are contributed to by vehicle defects, and of these, the number that would be because of faulty non-original parts would be vanishingly small, although I have no doubt it would be possible to dredge up a few if you tried hard enough.

scarry
14th September 2021, 11:56 AM
As noted above, very few accidents are contributed to by vehicle defects, and of these, the number that would be because of faulty non-original parts would be vanishingly small, although I have no doubt it would be possible to dredge up a few if you tried hard enough.

Blackhawk(after market) upper control arms,or more precisely,the ball joints that were fitted to them, have failed recently and caused quite a few accidents and near misses.
There is now a recall out for the units with certain serial numbers.

But yes,not many vehicle components fail causing accidents,except probably tyres.

That is if tyres can be called vehicle components.

Homestar
14th September 2021, 12:10 PM
If the driver can be called a component then component failure is the cause in 100% of accidents.. [emoji56][emoji38]

JDNSW
14th September 2021, 02:06 PM
Blackhawk(after market) upper control arms,or more precisely,the ball joints that were fitted to them, have failed recently and caused quite a few accidents and near misses.
There is now a recall out for the units with certain serial numbers.

But yes,not many vehicle components fail causing accidents,except probably tyres.

That is if tyres can be called vehicle components.

Yes, I was nearly going to say "except tyres". But while tyres are undoubtedly a significant factor in many accidents, in nearly all these cases, the issue is the condition of the tyre (i.e. wear, damage or pressure) rather than a manufacturing shortcoming, although a few would result from installing grossly unsuitable or unmatched tyres. But even in these cases actual accidents are rare, as tyre problems are usually obvious to the driver, and many adjust their driving to suit!

scarry
14th September 2021, 02:24 PM
If you take a look at the front tyres of cars when next walking through a shopping center,it’s amazing there are not more tyre related accidents.
It’s not uncommon to see them with steel hanging out.

The tyres on our vehicles,including the ones owned by the company are always replaced well before they reach the minimum tread depth markers.

JDNSW
14th September 2021, 07:51 PM
If you take a look at the front tyres of cars when next walking through a shopping center,it’s amazing there are not more tyre related accidents.
It’s not uncommon to see them with steel hanging out.

The tyres on our vehicles,including the ones owned by the company are always replaced well before they reach the minimum tread depth markers.

A few years back, I pointed out to the constable sitting behind the wheel of a police car, nose in angle parked in the main street of Dubbo, that the LH front tyre, clearly visible to any pedestrian on the footpath, was clearly unroadworthy, with the wear strips very much in evidence - in fact the tread was almost invisible in places. The response? "the pool looks after the cars, that is up to them".

V8Ian
14th September 2021, 08:41 PM
I knew a mechanic in the police garage, who said some general duties, mobile patrol sedans could go through a set of brake pads and tyres, in an eight hour shift.

3toes
15th September 2021, 12:28 AM
Manufacturers are one ahead of you want to nominate the tyres you can fit by brand

3toes
15th September 2021, 12:30 AM
What manufacturers careing about you means is I think open to interpretation which may differ between those speaking and those hearing

spudfan
15th September 2021, 04:12 AM
Over here tyres are stamped with the year and the week in that year of manufacture i.e. 1516. This indicates the tyre was manufactured in week 15 of 2016. When your tyre reaches six years of age you will get a notification to this effect on your annual vehicle inspection sheet. It is not a fail just a notification that you should change them. If you have a vehicle that is not the main car and does not cover a lot of miles annually tyres will last more than six years. If the tyre has sidewall cracks that is a fail which is fair enough.
So if your second vehicle, like my series 111, only does limited annual milage tyres will last a longer time. I often wondered if you were involved in an accident and your tyres were over six years old, and not cracked or cut, how would the insurance company view it?
It will probably go the same way with insurance companies and repairs.

stevo3400
15th September 2021, 08:31 PM
who said some general duties, mobile patrol sedans could go through a set of brake pads and tyres, in an eight hour shift.
Can I ask on what vehicles this was? What decade of last century was it? Or does the story get better everytime its told?

V8Ian
15th September 2021, 10:41 PM
The manufacturers want the monopoly on repairs. Then they can charge whatever they want.
https://youtu.be/vZLKo8bL5DE

V8Ian
15th September 2021, 10:48 PM
who said some general duties, mobile patrol sedans could go through a set of brake pads and tyres, in an eight hour shift.
Can I ask on what vehicles this was? What decade of last century was it? Or does the story get better everytime its told?
'Twas late 80s~early 90s, they would have been police special, Falcons. It wasn't every car, just a handful of drivers. It ties in with stories told to me, by an ex-policeman I worked with, one being how they would race each other, with lights and sirens on, the loser buying the coffee.

3toes
16th September 2021, 02:54 AM
Some times police cars are used in ways we would not. Used to work with an ex Glasgow policeman who had a trophy for the longest distance in a shift

Now you might think this was miles traveled in a shift which it is but …. Seems each week one team would be tasked with seeing how far from Glasgow they could travel in the police car. Seems reaching France from Glasgow in a shift is a winner

This was done while on duty and 30 odd years ago before tracking of cars and people