E10

[Rob3]

G'day.
I read on the news yesterday that unleaded petrol will be taken of the market and replaced by E10 as of next month.
Old vehicles including my 1991 3.5 Disco ( Me Daily ) and yours will not be compatible with E10.
Oldies will use E5 but it wont be available at all garages.
Seems like a good way to get us oldies off the road.
What can we do to our old thingies to make them compatible to E10 ?
Cheers.

[Tombie]

Run higher spec fuel.
IIRC it’s only 91Ron that’s being changed

[Homestar]

Got a link to the article by any chance? I think NSW already use E10 for all ULP sold there - (it's what I've heard and happy to stand corrected). From what I understand, it's older rubber fuel lines, etc that suffer from E10, but not 100% sure.

[incisor]

Got a link to the article by any chance? I think NSW already use E10 for all ULP sold there - (it's what I've heard and happy to stand corrected). From what I understand, it's older rubber fuel lines, etc that suffer from E10, but not 100% sure.

anything other than std 91ron is full of crap additives

try running it in a dual fuel stove and you'll soon see what i mean

it gums them up rather quickly

[Rob3]

I am looking for the thread that I read yesterday.
It did say that with a 60 litre tank it would cost $7 more to fill up with E5.
There were go to's to check what cars will be compatible with E10
but both of mine are old so I did not check it out.
91 Disco 3.5, 2000 Falcon AU11 six cyl.

[V8Ian]

When the mandatory change was made to low sulpher diesel, the fuel companies paid for any issues caused.
The various seals were the major issues, but anything to do with lift and/or injector pumps is expensive.
I was very fortunate that the only problem I had was a single washer on a fitting, coming from one of the tanks.

[PhilipA]

I read an article yesterday and it was about the UK.

Could you please reference the article which refers to Australia.
Regards PhilipA
I just Googled it and there are no recent posts by NSW gov or news media .

[Rob3]

There is quite a bit on Google NSW and Qld about which cars will be compatible etc.
I cant find any more about a cutoff date tho.
We will just have to wait and see.
Old diesel prices will skyrocket.
I wish I could trade in and afford one.
Any one friendly with garage owners who might have info ?

[gusthedog]

Its terrible for motorcycles. Have a look at any American site. We will need to invest in seafoam and the like to keep the fuel from breaking down and destroying the plastic components in the fuel system.

[Tote]

I've been running my XT ute on E10 for about 15 years, the only issues I had were the seals on the fuel gauge senders failing, quickly and easily fixed, and that was nearly 20 years ago when ethanol fuel was really crap. Aside from that everything else that uses standard fuel also uses it, Ive had a few Briggs and Stratton fuel pipes need replacement but once done they don't fail again.

Regards,
Tote

[101RRS]

I think the OP is getting mixed up with the introduction of 10% ethanol across all petrol fuels in the UK.

Nothing here indicated here as yet about specifically introducing it here across all fuels noting that ethanol can be in our fuels up to a certain level already in addition to E10 (U91+10%ethanol) but has to be annotated as such.

[101RRS]

There is quite a bit on Google NSW and Qld about which cars will be compatible etc.
I cant find any more about a cutoff date tho.
We will just have to wait and see.
Old diesel prices will skyrocket.
I wish I could trade in and afford one.
Any one friendly with garage owners who might have info ?

I think you are looking at the information that related to the introduction of the E10 grade of fuel 10 years or so ago.

[Vern]

Got a link to the article by any chance? I think NSW already use E10 for all ULP sold there - (it's what I've heard and happy to stand corrected). From what I understand, it's older rubber fuel lines, etc that suffer from E10, but not 100% sure.Nope, can still get e10, 91, 95, and 98. We use all of the above in our patrol.

[Vern]

anything other than std 91ron is full of crap additives

try running it in a dual fuel stove and you'll soon see what i mean

it gums them up rather quicklyWhat do you mean inc.? We use mainly 98 in our patrol as it runs ever so slightly better than 91, not much noticeable difference between e10, 95 and 98 though

[gromit]

anything other than std 91ron is full of crap additives

try running it in a dual fuel stove and you'll soon see what i mean

it gums them up rather quickly

As all pump petrol has some additives ideally you need Shellite for a dual fuel stove, Bunnings stock it.

I had a Coleman twin burner clog up very quickly on unleaded many years back. Replaced the burner tube and switched to Shellite and no problems since.

As far as I can tell, Shellite is pure petrol with no additives and is a trademark of Shell Australia.

Colin

[incisor]

Been running 91ron in mine for years without issue

The original paperwork specified 91ron if you use petroleum and I stuck with it

Used 95ron in it once as thats all I could get and it lasted an hour and clogged

Cleaned it and ran shellite through it for a while and went back to 91ron as I nearly always had it on board anyway

[350RRC]

What do you mean inc.? We use mainly 98 in our patrol as it runs ever so slightly better than 91, not much noticeable difference between e10, 95 and 98 though

I've had the same half tank of 91 in my pos for 3 years.

Switched it over from gas the other day and it ran fine, plenty of poke.

Only did it to make sure the fuel pump and its circuit was still working.

DL

[1950landy]

I am looking for the thread that I read yesterday.
It did say that with a 60 litre tank it would cost $7 more to fill up with E5.
There were go to's to check what cars will be compatible with E10
but both of mine are old so I did not check it out.
91 Disco 3.5, 2000 Falcon AU11 six cyl.

Any vehicle with an aluminium cylinder head should be able to run on E10 without any valve seat problems. As already said any rubber & soldered joints in fuel system will give problems . My BF Falcon ute runs better on E10 than unleaded & I have not noticed any difference in fuel usage.

[incisor]

What do you mean inc.? We use mainly 98 in our patrol as it runs ever so slightly better than 91, not much noticeable difference between e10, 95 and 98 though

Was talking about a dual fuel stove [emoji16]

[RANDLOVER]

E10 is also hygroscopic, i.e. attracts moisture, so probably not good to use it in any equipment that stands around a lot of time unused.

[Tote]

Was talking about a dual fuel stove [emoji16]

I use Coleman fuel, available from tentworld, but only in store, mostly because it comes in a steel can with a coleman designed pourer funnel. Although I note it isn't on their website anymore.[bigsad]

Regards,
Tote

[incisor]

I use Coleman fuel, available from tentworld, but only in store, mostly because it comes in a steel can with a coleman designed pourer funnel. Although I note it isn't on their website anymore.[bigsad]

Regards,
Tote

yeah,

tried it once, have the can to prove it and it did burn just a gnats cock hotter than 91ron

but i nearly always have 91ron with me so i just use that save carrying more flammable stuff

[d@rk51d3]

I think the OP is getting mixed up with the introduction of 10% ethanol across all petrol fuels in the UK.



Same.
Article took me by surprise whe I read it a couple of days ago, until I realised it was a UK story.

[Dorian]

So for a bit of background the term 'petrol' is a bit like 'chocolate cake'. It covers a whole heap of stuff.

The base of petrol is naphtha or heavy naphtha which again covers a whole heap of chemical compounds but mainly straight hydrocarbons, with an average of 8-9 carbon atoms in each molecule and a RON of around 60, from memory most petrol is 80% plus naphtha. They then blend in other hydrocarbons and some herbs and spices, to get it up to a RON of 91.

Shellite, Fuellite in NZ (and probably Coleman fuel), is straight naphtha. I've been banned from using petrol when cooking, it's the herbs and spices apparently that are the problem. I've suggested that we probably breathe in a heap from all of the traffic passing by, but that fell on deaf ears.

Ethanol has a RON of around 120 and is an approved additive to increase the RON in higher performance fuels, so legally, fuel companies can use Ethanol to produce 95 and 98 without telling you about it. I doubt that they do but it's an option for them.

There are only a few hundred cars in Australia that need to run on 98, IMHO I think 98 is just a good marketing strategy for the big oil companies to rake in a lot of extra cash.

Cheers Glen

[BradC]

There are only a few hundred cars in Australia that need to run on 98, IMHO I think 98 is just a good marketing strategy for the big oil companies to rake in a lot of extra cash.

Anecdotally I find 98 seems to last longer before dropping gum/sludge so I tend to grab 98 for my plastic jerries. Admittedly this has been "tested" over 20 years or so and I'm positive the formulations of both 91 and 98 will have varied over that time, but I just find 98 seems to leave less grunge in the rarely used petrol powered equipment (garden, outboard, generator).

I'm probably wrong, but since I switched to 98 I haven't had to de-gum a carbie and with 91 that was a relatively regular occurrence.

In the car, there were a few years there where it was cheaper for me to put 98 in. The vehicle has a reasonable EFI with a good knock sensor and the mileage gain from 98 was enough to offset the additional cost. But that was back in the late 90's early 2000's when the cost differential wasn't as steep.

I've never seen E10 in WA, so it remains quite theoretical over here.

[Tombie]

Some testing by a few race teams here has shown better performance from 95 over 98.

That’s in classes where pump fuel rules.

Very few vehicles benefit from 98.

The Nitro bikes etc are another story all together [emoji41]

[DiscoMick]

Most of the E10 I see is rated 94 octane.

[Tombie]

Octane is detonation threshold though - not calorific value.

So less efficient in machines not mapped/built to utilise the compressive increases.

[prelude]

I'm interested to learn more about E10 in .au since I do plan (if that bloody chinese flue will ever pass) to come tour your magnificent country and I would like to avoid E10 in my P38 as much as possible.

To share my experiences, which are admittedly from europe but I guess bio-ethanol is the same all over?

We used to have 5% ethanol blended in with our petrol in the standard fuel which is 95 octane. They started doing that a while back and whilst it did not create a noticeable problem in most vehicles I own, my mates mechanically injected benz slowly started to grow unhappy. We only have one other type of fuel available down here a 98 octane premium fuel. After he switched, the problems went away in so far an old mechanically injected engine of that age can be.

Fast forward a few years and the standard 95 octane fuel was switched by law to 10% bio-ethanol. That is when I switched to 98 premium for all my cars, which are all pre-2000. I own several honda legends so I can compare them quite well and one of them was imported from germany where e10 has been a thing for quite a long time already. I recently had a fuel pump failure (or so I thought, turned out to be the fuel relay) so I went into the shed and started ripping an old legend apart to get the fuel pump out. This car has never even seen E5 so it has always run 95 octane standard fuel. The fuel tank and pump are galvanised on the inside with that gold colored stuff and were still bright and shiny. My (newer) german import which has run e10 for a considerable part of it's life had everything inside the fuel tank dulled due to corrosive elements such as water.

Ethanol is indeed hygroscopic and even small organisms can grow inside your fuel, bound to the water.

I have had 3 month old E10 in my generator and it would not start. It simply would'nt. So I emptied it out, threw some aspen fuel in there (probably the same as your shellite stuff) and started the generator up and let it run for a while. Once I was satisfied I threw the E10 back in there and the engine simply stalled. Visually there was no gumming or dirt in the fuel but the colour had gone from a light yellow to a brown yellow. If you throw this fuel on a pile of firewood and throw a match in there (from a safe distance!) it burns like nobody's business but is simply won't run in an engine anymore. I am not sure why this is but 3 month old 98 premium, which I also tested, did NOT have a similar problem.

So, whenever I use a small petrol engine (like my generator) and I know I will be using it for a while, I have no problem running it on regular fuel but I do let it run out or pour it out in the end. I then fill it up with a splash of aspen and run it until it has passed through everything in the system before I store it again. In my cars I only run premium non ethanol fuel. Yes, it is more expensive down here as well but it does not matter that much since it runs more economical. (bio)ethanol has a lower energy density so if you do the math, an engine running E10 uses 3% more fuel. Since premium fuels here are 6% more expensive on average that leaves me with 3% more cost. I'll take that and pass on the bio-ethanol crap, thank you.

Looking forward to any information regarding fuels and ethanol contents in .au!

Cheers,
-P

[V8Ian]

In remote areas petrol can be hard to source, particularly high octane petrols. In aboriginal communities and remote towns, that have issues with petrol sniffing, OPAL fuel is often the only petrol available. OPAL is an expensive, poor quality petrol with the aromatics removed.

[RANDLOVER]

Octane is detonation threshold though - not calorific value.

So less efficient in machines not mapped/built to utilise the compressive increases.

Hence the need for knock sensors but it is pretty easy and cheap to do at the factory, these are known as Flex-Fuel models in Brazil where E10 is the minimum blend going all the way to 100% ethanal derived from sugar cane.
Ethanol fuel in Brazil - Wikipedia (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Ethanol_fuel_in_Brazil)

[Tombie]

Yes aware of that. It causes them a lot of problems too!

It’s a **** fuel for a daily driver.

[jonesfam]

In remote areas petrol can be hard to source, particularly high octane petrols. In aboriginal communities and remote towns, that have issues with petrol sniffing, OPAL fuel is often the only petrol available. OPAL is an expensive, poor quality petrol with the aromatics removed.

Correct on all counts but,
It does stop the idiot kids killing themselves!
BTW 98 RO fuel is also un-sniffable as it makes the person get violent vomits before any aromatics have an effect, unfortunately the powers that be don't subsidies 98, they do OPAL.

Jonesfam
As a matter of interest, after 15 years of selling OPAL Doomadgee went back to selling regular ULP, within a month we had problems returning, been back on OPAL for awhile now.

[V8Ian]

Paul, I went into Aurukun and sucked all of their ULP out of the ground, then replaced it with OPAL (picked up from Birkenhead, Adelaide). I was as popular as a pork chop in a mosque.

I also heard of a young fellow in Alice! who suffocated himself, trying to get high on OPAL. [bigsad]

[Tombie]

In Coober Pedy they walk around with Opal in a Coke can.
Then heat the bottom with a lighter to release the aromatics [emoji47]
Watched I many a time.

[V8Ian]

In Coober Pedy they walk around with Opal in a Coke can.
Then heat the bottom with a lighter to release the aromatics [emoji47]
Watched I many a time.
With a lit durry hanging from the corner of their gob?

[austastar]

Hi,
Even in Hobart.
Had to photograph the burn areas on two young teens after the petrol they were sniffing under a house ignited from a candle.
Only time I witnessed it in 40 odd years.
Cheers

[ChookD2]

This on the Gov.uk website

GOV.UK E10 Enquiry (https://check-vehicle-compatibility-e10-petrol.service.gov.uk/manufacturer/Land%20Rover)

Edit: Also found this on the FCAI website, scroll down to Land Rover says same thing. All post 1996 good for E5 and E10. What is E5?

Can my vehicle operate on Ethanol blend petrol? | Federal Chamber of Automotive Industries (https://www.fcai.com.au/environment/can-my-vehicle-operate-on-ethanol-blend-petrol)

[V8Ian]

This on the Gov.uk website

GOV.UK E10 Enquiry (https://check-vehicle-compatibility-e10-petrol.service.gov.uk/manufacturer/Land%20Rover)

Edit: Also found this on the FCAI website, scroll down to Land Rover says same thing. All post 1996 good for E5 and E10. What is E5?

Can my vehicle operate on Ethanol blend petrol? | Federal Chamber of Automotive Industries (https://www.fcai.com.au/environment/can-my-vehicle-operate-on-ethanol-blend-petrol)
5% ethanol, AFAIK not available in Australia. V8 Supercars use E85, 85% ethanol.

[ChookD2]

5% ethanol, AFAIK not available in Australia. V8 Supercars use E85, 85% ethanol.

Yeah, figured it was 5% just never heard of it. E85 is available at some servos. Just had another check for mine and I believe I can use E10 provided it has an octane rating of 95 but most of the E10 I have seen is only 94.

[Hoges]

So for a bit of background the term 'petrol' is a bit like 'chocolate cake'. It covers a whole heap of stuff.

The base of petrol is naphtha or heavy naphtha which again covers a whole heap of chemical compounds but mainly straight hydrocarbons, with an average of 8-9 carbon atoms in each molecule and a RON of around 60, from memory most petrol is 80% plus naphtha. They then blend in other hydrocarbons and some herbs and spices, to get it up to a RON of 91.

Shellite, Fuellite in NZ (and probably Coleman fuel), is straight naphtha. I've been banned from using petrol when cooking, it's the herbs and spices apparently that are the problem. I've suggested that we probably breathe in a heap from all of the traffic passing by, but that fell on deaf ears.

Ethanol has a RON of around 120 and is an approved additive to increase the RON in higher performance fuels, so legally, fuel companies can use Ethanol to produce 95 and 98 without telling you about it. I doubt that they do but it's an option for them.

There are only a few hundred cars in Australia that need to run on 98, IMHO I think 98 is just a good marketing strategy for the big oil companies to rake in a lot of extra cash.

Cheers Glen

I think you may find that 98 Octane is taken from a narrower "band" in the refinery distillation process and is therefore a more consistent 'mix' .
Ethanol may have a higher RON but the calorific value of ethanol is way below the olefines which constitute the majority of the so-called 'petrol' mix. So a 10% ethanol mix does not have as much energy as an equivalent volume of say, 95 Octane or even 91 Octane.

My nephew has a 1929 Chev...he tells me that he (and other club members) run their Chevs on Shell 98 octane... no additives. The valve seats have not needed attention...

[V8Ian]

I think you may find that 98 Octane is taken from a narrower "band" in the refinery distillation process and is therefore a more consistent 'mix' .
Ethanol may have a higher RON but the calorific value of ethanol is way below the olefines which constitute the majority of the so-called 'petrol' mix. So a 10% ethanol mix does not have as much energy as an equivalent volume of say, 95 Octane or even 91 Octane.

My nephew has a 1929 Chev...he tells me that he (and other club members) run the Chev on Shell 98 octane... no additives. The valve seats have not needed attention...
Bang for buck, or cost per calorie, E10 offers less value than 91. E10 needs to be 6cpl cheaper than 91 to offer equivalent calories per dollar.

[Dorian]

I think you may find that 98 Octane is taken from a narrower "band" in the refinery distillation process and is therefore a more consistent 'mix' .
Ethanol may have a higher RON but the calorific value of ethanol is way below the olefines which constitute the majority of the so-called 'petrol' mix. So a 10% ethanol mix does not have as much energy as an equivalent volume of say, 95 Octane or even 91 Octane.

My nephew has a 1929 Chev...he tells me that he (and other club members) run their Chevs on Shell 98 octane... no additives. The valve seats have not needed attention...

Hi Hoges,
No argument that Ethanol has a 3% lower calorific value than that of Naphtha ( which would have some component of olefin), that's why it's cheaper. Calorific value and Ron values are completely different. If you add enough ethanol (Ron of 120) to 91 you will be able to get 95 ( I think it's E20ish). In a few outlets in NSW, United sells E85 (RON of 105) so the tappet heads can rechip (factory option) their BMW's and Mercedes to tear up the pavement.

BTW I am pretty sure that 91, 95 and 98 have the same calorific value (or within cooee of each other), but try to find actual published values that Australian fuel companies are selling their fuel at, they make vague "feel good" statements but no numbers. Here is the fuel standard - Fuel Quality Standards (Petrol) Determination 2019 (https://www.legislation.gov.au/Details/F2019L00455), it actually does not talk about calorific value.

I know that 98 will burn better than 91 but that is as much of motor issue as a fuel issue, in my opinion, Car manufactures are specifying 95 for their engines so they can meet emission standards (required in international markets) without having to do as much work.

95, 98 are made from 91 with blended/added components (mostly aromatics) , and they will use octane boosters to get the rest of the way up to the octane number they need. In Australia they can use (without needing to tell you about it) a range of "herbs and spices", which I believe include, Ethanol, butanol, NMA and a couple of others that I can't recall.

Lead was used as an octane booster because it was cheap, so leaded fuel had a higher octane number, not surprised that the older cars run on 98 without problems, I wonder though if they do enough miles though to find out if the valve seats hold out. If I recall correctly lead also reduced the temperature of the flame front in the cylinders (well I think that's what Ed said anyway).

Oddly enough the USA has gone on past the E10 thing, as 90% of their petrol sold is E10 where as it's only around 20 - 25% in Australia.

Cheers Glen

[101RRS]

Hi Hoges,
BTW I am pretty sure that 91, 95 and 98 have the same calorific value (or within cooee of each other),



It is all the same basic petrol and as you have said has the same calorific value so in an engine with a fixed state of tune all will provide the same power. However higher octane rating allows higher states of tune to be dialled in so more power releasing the fuels full potential.

If you have an engine tuned to run on 91RON, putting in 95 or 98 makes absolutely no difference except draining the wallet a bit quicker. But increase the advance, increase compression, etc etc then higher octane fuel comes into its own.

[DiscoMick]

Yes, we run our Mazda 2 happily on E10 94. I did try 98 in it once, but couldn't see any difference to performance or fuel economy, so the extra cost seemed worthless.

I have read that many European cars have to be detuned for Australia, but I believe that is because our fuel is dirty and does not meet the cleanest fuel standards they are tuned to run on, causing dirty filters and DPFs.

[Tombie]

Yes, we run our Mazda 2 happily on E10 94. I did try 98 in it once, but couldn't see any difference to performance or fuel economy, so the extra cost seemed worthless.

I have read that many European cars have to be detuned for Australia, but I believe that is because our fuel is dirty and does not meet the cleanest fuel standards they are tuned to run on, causing dirty filters and DPFs.

Matches their thinking…

Your vehicle is tuned for 91 and the E10 will have similar power.

Mazda states nothing above E10 on Euro fuel
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210909/821aa18da016da378e68b9e1a2f03cd0.jpg


Note that in some countries E20 is offered - however warranty is significantly shorter in those regions.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20210909/dd30c624b066eba6776d93b2941957cb.jpg

[RANDLOVER]

Bang for buck, or cost per calorie, E10 offers less value than 91. E10 needs to be 6cpl cheaper than 91 to offer equivalent calories per dollar.

They should mention that on the fuel price watch type websites.

[Vern]

Bang for buck, or cost per calorie, E10 offers less value than 91. E10 needs to be 6cpl cheaper than 91 to offer equivalent calories per dollar.That's odd, we get better performance and kilometres with e10 than 91 in our y62. We get very similar outcomes with e10, 95 and 98, but can definitely see the difference when using 91.

[V8Ian]

That's odd, we get better performance and kilometres with e10 than 91 in our y62. We get very similar outcomes with e10, 95 and 98, but can definitely see the difference when using 91.
That could be down to ignition timing or compression. The higher the RON, the slower and longer the burn.

[RANDLOVER]

In this month's LRM (Land Rover Monthly) the "Vocal Yokel" column mentions a Rangies paint bubbling after E10 was spilt on it!

[DiscoMick]

E10 is 94 octane around here, so higher than 91.
That's odd, we get better performance and kilometres with e10 than 91 in our y62. We get very similar outcomes with e10, 95 and 98, but can definitely see the difference when using 91.

[Vern]

E10 is 94 octane around here, so higher than 91.Huh? I know, perhaps read Ians comment that i replied to.

[V8Ian]

That's odd, we get better performance and kilometres with e10 than 91 in our y62. We get very similar outcomes with e10, 95 and 98, but can definitely see the difference when using 91.
That would be down to timing and/or compression ratio. Remember, RON is not indicative of calorific value, it is a measurement of speed/length of burn. Any vehicle, tuned or designed to use a particular RON value fuel will ping and be unable to extract efficiently, the calories of a lower RON fuel.

[Vern]

That would be down to timing and/or compression ratio. Remember, RON is not indicative of calorific value, it is a measurement of speed/length of burn. Any vehicle, tuned or designed to use a particular RON value fuel will ping and be unable to extract efficiently, the calories of a lower RON fuel.So how is e10 less value than 91 then?
No pinging on any of tthe fuels used either.

[incisor]

So how is e10 less value than 91 then?

calories / $

i would imagine

[V8Ian]

Bang for buck, or cost per calorie, E10 offers less value than 91. E10 needs to be 6cpl cheaper than 91 to offer equivalent calories per dollar.


That could be down to ignition timing or compression. The higher the RON, the slower and longer the burn.


So how is e10 less value than 91 then?
No pinging on any of tthe fuels used either.
As Incisor said, based on calories per dollar. The correct RON for the engine tune/design is the most efficient way to extract the available energy. The wrong RON, plus or minus will waste energy.

[Vern]

As Incisor said, based on calories per dollar. The correct RON for the engine tune/design is the most efficient way to extract the available energy. The wrong RON, plus or minus will waste energy.I get that, but for me, the e10 is better bang for my buck than 91. Car runs better, has more power (it feels) gets better k's.

[Vern]

calories / $

i would imagineHmmm, so better k's per tank and power means its worse?

[V8Ian]

I get that, but for me, the e10 is better bang for my buck than 91. Car runs better, has more power (it feels) gets better k's.
Yes, because the engine is setup to make best use of 94+ RON.

[Vern]

Therefore making it better bang for your buck???

[101RRS]

So how is e10 less value than 91 then?
No pinging on any of tthe fuels used either.

The same as lpg has a Ron of something like 100 but calorific burn value is less than 91 Ron - tuning to maximise the benefits of a higher Ron will reduce the losses but is still not enough to make up the lost zoom zoom.

All testing of 91Ron against E10 (94 Ron) in the same car has always shown less mpg (less zoom zoom) and the difference in price is not enough to overcome the reduced cost per mile. Maybe if they retuned the car to run on 94 octane E10 some of the losses might be ragained but not enough.

Modern cars with computer controlled variable efi and ignition timing will automatically tune the car to suit the fuel so driving will not make a noticeable difference, but if timing is not changed then it will be noticeable particularly if it is a 98 Ron car on 91.

[101RRS]

I get that, but for me, the e10 is better bang for my buck than 91. Car runs better, has more power (it feels) gets better k's.

Well you are the exception to all the official testing - placebo effect? [bighmmm]

[Vern]

Well you are the exception to all the official testing - placebo effect? [bighmmm]No, calculation from litres used per tank. And i'm not the only one who has measured it in their y62.

[RANDLOVER]

So how is e10 less value than 91 then?
No pinging on any of tthe fuels used either.

Any small loss of value is more than made up for by the warm fuzzy glow you get from saving the planet and people's health, which is the point of E10, not an economy measure.

[ramblingboy42]

wouldn't it be really nice if the fuel manufacturers were honest?

what is in their mixes?

what changes in my distllate, ie diesel?

same bowser most of the time , usually do about 6-800km before filling up , so for me that could easily be 6-8 weeks or more

the reason I ask is with each tank the exhaust smell varies , sometimes it has a coffee smell, sometimes the sweet smell you get from a diesel running , every 2nd or 3rd fill the coffee smell comes back.

why do the nissans seem to chuff out soot? mine doesn't although egr is modified.

I think these fuels are changing all the time.

[RANDLOVER]

wouldn't it be really nice if the fuel manufacturers were honest?

what is in their mixes?

what changes in my distllate, ie diesel?

same bowser most of the time , usually do about 6-800km before filling up , so for me that could easily be 6-8 weeks or more

the reason I ask is with each tank the exhaust smell varies , sometimes it has a coffee smell, sometimes the sweet smell you get from a diesel running , every 2nd or 3rd fill the coffee smell comes back.

why do the nissans seem to chuff out soot? mine doesn't although egr is modified.

I think these fuels are changing all the time.

The exhaust smoke is caused by over fuelling, which is a cheap trick to extract the max performance out of a diesel engine, as it will try to burn whatever fuel it is given to the point of meltdown really.

[Tote]

wouldn't it be really nice if the fuel manufacturers were honest?

what is in their mixes?

what changes in my distllate, ie diesel?

same bowser most of the time , usually do about 6-800km before filling up , so for me that could easily be 6-8 weeks or more

the reason I ask is with each tank the exhaust smell varies , sometimes it has a coffee smell, sometimes the sweet smell you get from a diesel running , every 2nd or 3rd fill the coffee smell comes back.

why do the nissans seem to chuff out soot? mine doesn't although egr is modified.

I think these fuels are changing all the time.


A story, admittedly from a long time ago, I had a Maverick as a work vehicle with the 4.2 N/A diesel. At the time I was travelling to Sydney fairly often and there is a long steady climb out of Bathurst to Glanmire. I had Caltex and BP fuel cards at the time; if I filled upon with Caltex I could look in the rear vision mirror and very clearly see where I had been by the black smoke. If I filled up with BP there was virtually none. Vehicle was completely stock, the only difference was the fuel and it was repeatable at will. This was pre refineries closing down and low sulpha fuel in about 1992.

Regards,
Tote

[101RRS]

No, calculation from litres used per tank. And i'm not the only one who has measured it in their y62.

Being a modern engine the tune will automatically change to suit the fuel. If you believe E10 is best for your vehicle then use it.

[vnx205]

A few years ago I was persuaded by friends to try some premium fuel in my SV21 Camry. They claimed they went much further on a tank (maybe they just let the tank get a bit lower before they filled up).

I had always used E10 and calculations based on each refill always gave me something very close to 8.25 l/100km. I tried three consecutive tank fulls of premium and each time I refilled, my calculations showed that I had used 8.25 l/100km. I just accepted that a 1998 engine wasn't designed to get any benefit from the more expensive fuel.

My AVV50R Camry says inside the filler flap that it can use E10, so that is what I use. I tried a couple of tank fulls of 95 to see if the 10% higher price gave me a 10% improvement in fuel consumption.

However, even though the trips I did were similar 300-400km highway drives, I found that variations such as the number of roadworks, whether I had the kayak or canoe on the roof bars, the prevailing winds and the traffic density had a greater effect than the potential difference between the fuels.

The best guess I could make was that there might have been a 5% improvement, so not worth the 10% higher price.

I think my real conclusion was that in the real world, it just isn't worth obsessing about the potential differences.

[Vern]

Being a modern engine the tune will automatically change to suit the fuel. If you believe E10 is best for your vehicle then use it.No i don't think it is best, but what i was saying, is i get better bang for my buck with e10 than 91, both cost about the same, car goes better and gets better k's with e10, thats all i have been saying all along. We predominantly use 98.

[Dorian]

I have read that many European cars have to be detuned for Australia, but I believe that is because our fuel is dirty and does not meet the cleanest fuel standards they are tuned to run on, causing dirty filters and DPFs.

European engine manufacturers would like us to use MTBE and ETBE in our fuel as it's a great octane enhancer, it adds oxygen into the fuel, increases the flame front temp and is generally good for the engine performance and exhaust emissions. It's banned in Qld and WA because it can cause (and in Europe has caused) some serious ground water contamination, so because our fuel is shipped nationally it's effectively banned nationwide. Our fuels are clean, they just don't have some of the herbs and spices allowed elsewhere, and that's probably a good thing.

Cheer Glen.