70,000 Orders for Electric F100 in first week.

[goingbush]

Interesting, I thought Yank truck buyers were more into rolling coal.


Australia electrified ute future (https://www.whichcar.com.au/features/australia-electrified-ute-future?fbclid=IwAR2zla3nSQacMETkBDHoP_seXkYOzMCTLK EriyUC68yrK1XpJ7Y6EX9F5cY)

[John_D4]

There’s definitely a market for EV here in Australia. We’re contemplating an EV to replace the Mazda 2 when it’s time to replace it.

[goingbush]

Especially good in Lockdown with a 5km radius . Range Anxiety a non issue.

Since my EV Landy conversion 4 years ago I can't remember the last time we put petrol in my wifes car, its a 2015 model and only done 10,000km , but need it for longer trips if we ever need to run to Melb or Sydney ( unlikely) It just sits in the garage, on the other hand done 18,000km in the Landy now as a daily driver / local runabout.

[Arapiles]

As they say, electric utes like that have a significant packaging advantage over ICE vehicles because IC engines are so large.

As an example, the Rivian SUV is about the size of my D4 (and from the rear quarter view has an uncanny similarity) but, unlike the D4, when all 7 seats are in use there's still the frunk that can take luggage.

[JDNSW]

Interesting, I thought Yank truck buyers were more into rolling coal.


Australia electrified ute future (https://www.whichcar.com.au/features/australia-electrified-ute-future?fbclid=IwAR2zla3nSQacMETkBDHoP_seXkYOzMCTLK EriyUC68yrK1XpJ7Y6EX9F5cY)

I think the point is there are a lot of Yank truck buyers. The F100 has for years been the best selling 'car' there.

[PhilipA]

A lot of government F series also and President Biden has instructed all federal agencies to buy EVs.

Maybe they need some to replace those left somewhere recently.

Regards PhilipA

[DiscoMick]

Mazda seems to have skipped hybrids and to be starting to release EVs. If we were up for a new car I'd happily buy an EV Mazda 2.
There’s definitely a market for EV here in Australia. We’re contemplating an EV to replace the Mazda 2 when it’s time to replace it.

[scarry]

Mazda seems to have skipped hybrids and to be starting to release EVs. If we were up for a new car I'd happily buy an EV Mazda 2.

We are the same,just need to retire completely and get rid of the van.

Then an EV would suit us for sure.
And also keep the ICE Wagon for the away trips,touring,etc.

[John_D4]

Mazda seems to have skipped hybrids and to be starting to release EVs. If we were up for a new car I'd happily buy an EV Mazda 2.

Great car, reliable, never breaks down, 200000km on it. Just getting too small

[DiscoMick]

We are keeping the Defender forever for towing the van, so the Mazda 2 is perfect for tootling about.
With 6.8kW of solar on the roof, charging an EV 2 would not be a problem.
Their MX-30 EV looks good, but it's larger and more expensive than we need.

Mazda MX-30 Electric | Mazda Australia (https://www.mazda.com.au/cars/mx-30-electric?gclid=Cj0KCQjwkIGKBhCxARIsAINMioKYCeTfr5-bNAsm_rIsvC_6zB0aILt4AF_HZI02Zp5vkQ4jfyUAHPoaAl23E ALw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds)

[Homestar]

There’s definitely a market for EV here in Australia. We’re contemplating an EV to replace the Mazda 2 when it’s time to replace it.

As a second car/run around/daily commuter they are ideal - particularly if you have rooftop solar and batteries already so charging is cheap (I won't say free because the solar and batteries are bloody expensive). This is where the marketing should be targeted to help overcome things like range anxiety and towing capacities, etc. Start out advertising what they can do, not what they *may* be able to do in a few years/decades time.

[DiscoMick]

I see Ford has temporarily closed orders for the F-150 Lightening because, despite boosting production 4 times, it is unable to keep up with the demand.

[Tombie]

We are keeping the Defender forever for towing the van, so the Mazda 2 is perfect for tootling about.
With 6.8kW of solar on the roof, charging an EV 2 would not be a problem.
Their MX-30 EV looks good, but it's larger and more expensive than we need.

Mazda MX-30 Electric | Mazda Australia (https://www.mazda.com.au/cars/mx-30-electric?gclid=Cj0KCQjwkIGKBhCxARIsAINMioKYCeTfr5-bNAsm_rIsvC_6zB0aILt4AF_HZI02Zp5vkQ4jfyUAHPoaAl23E ALw_wcB&gclsrc=aw.ds)

Nice looking vehicle.

Biggest hurdle - spending that much “to save money” isn’t viable. And the emissions from buying another vehicle well exceed what you’ll generate on the current one.

People tend to change for changes sake and I fully get that.
Heck did it for decades, new car every 12 months and then every 3 years, now can’t be bothered more fun things to spend money on.

Current EVs are great for - people who don’t have a decent vehicle atm. Want a vehicle that never intends to tow or leave the principal area of its residence or take journeys beyond its range in a timely manner.

Just getting one to be green / cheap is neither.

[scarry]

Tesla outsells the Toyota LandCruiser, Corolla and popular utes | Daily Mail Online (https://www.dailymail.co.uk/news/article-11179785/Tesla-outsells-Toyota-LandCruiser-Corolla-popular-utes.html)

Ev's are fine for those that they suit,but they shouldnt be forced on those that they dont suit for whatever reason.

[scarry]

A bit off topic,but seems the timeline for E buses has grown.No surprise there,its going to happen for Ev's in many places as well.

NSW government delays delivering electric bus fleet by at least five years - ABC News (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-09-06/nsw-government-green-bus-plan-delayed-by-five-years/101410796?utm_medium=social&utm_content=sf260117099&utm_campaign=fb_abc_news&utm_source=m.facebook.com&sf260117099=1&fbclid=IwAR0n6dI05cv7A81JVwNqt4jO0QtPX-5FbSzdPM_XxFeHjLkeRvSQ_QqCAK0)

No doubt 5yrs will become 10,and on it goes,that is if it ever happens.

[NavyDiver]

A bit off topic,but seems the timeline for E buses has grown.No surprise there,its going to happen for Ev's in many places as well.

NSW government delays delivering electric bus fleet by at least five years - ABC News (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2022-09-06/nsw-government-green-bus-plan-delayed-by-five-years/101410796?utm_medium=social&utm_content=sf260117099&utm_campaign=fb_abc_news&utm_source=m.facebook.com&sf260117099=1&fbclid=IwAR0n6dI05cv7A81JVwNqt4jO0QtPX-5FbSzdPM_XxFeHjLkeRvSQ_QqCAK0)

No doubt 5yrs will become 10,and on it goes,that is if it ever happens.

OZ is slow which is to be expected. The 12 Alstom Coradia LINT trains in Germany are a starting point. My sad sack view is HZR in Perth and Spare Nuclear or wind or solar via hydrogen electrolysis to save excess power at time which is currently wasted will make Full Cell tech like those trains cheap to run. More than happy to bet I will have a Hydrogen fuel cell in use at work and hopefully in my boat in the next few years. Money meets mouth I hope :)

A company in Canada is supplying the fuel cells in some other hydrogen (https://www.ballard.com/markets/rail) trains

The F150 is not on my shopping list unless I can put a nice fuel Cell generator in the back when I want to go a Long way.[bigwhistle]

[John_D4]

OZ is slow which is to be expected. The 12 Alstom Coradia LINT trains in Germany are a starting point. My sad sack view is HZR in Perth and Spare Nuclear or wind or solar via hydrogen electrolysis to save excess power at time which is currently wasted will make Full Cell tech like those trains cheap to run. More than happy to bet I will have a Hydrogen fuel cell in use at work and hopefully in my boat in the next few years. Money meets mouth I hope :)

A company in Canada is supplying the fuel cells in some other hydrogen (https://www.ballard.com/markets/rail) trains

The F150 is not on my shopping list unless I can put a nice fuel Cell generator in the back when I want to go a Long way.[bigwhistle]

Maybe you could put a 10kva diesel generator in the back to power the batteries?

[BradC]

My sad sack view is HZR in Perth and Spare Nuclear or wind or solar via hydrogen electrolysis to save excess power at time which is currently wasted will make Full Cell tech like those trains cheap to run.

The problem is the current round-trip efficiency. This quotes ~35% : https://www.hydrogen.energy.gov/pdfs/review19/sa173_penev_2019_p.pdf
That's a bit pessimistic, as I've seen it quoted as high as 38%. Even one un-referenced report indicated almost as high as 40%! Pumped Hydro defecates on it from a great height as far as round trip efficiency.

We currently don't have enough space for the cells and wind turbines required to replace our existing fossil fuel power sources, let alone the 2.5x that would be required if we had to rely on Hydrogen for storage. "Cheap to run" becomes relative.

Now, if we were talking loads of power from small packages, say Nuclear, then it becomes slightly more feasible. But these twonks suggesting "green and renewable" sources are going to save the planet based on electrolysis and fuel cells are not looking at the whole picture. They're only "green and renewable" if you ignore the fact they have a limited life, can't be recycled and in the case of wind still won't produce in the lifetime of a turbine the energy required to make, install and maintain the thing. Solar eventually crossed that bridge, but it also doesn't require yearly oil changes (and the oil isn't either "green", nor "renewable") and routine maintenance, let alone the earth works required to install it, and then replace it when its design life has expired.

Heck, if it wasn't for the fact nobody has figured out how to recycle them yet, even lithium batteries are more than twice as efficient as Hydrogen currently. The big limitation is there is an inherent physical limitation that says the Hydrogen round trip efficiency (electrolysis -> fuel cell) will never approach a battery in that oxygen doesn't make electricity, so over a third (and closer to a half) of the power used to split water goes "out the pipe" so to speak.

Batteries are a short term solution to a long term problem. Wind isn't the answer until we learn to harness it in a manner that makes more power than it consumes. Solar certainly has potential, but we need storage that is efficient. Right now, pumped hydro is where it's at. Hydrogen *might* be useful on it's own, but the probability is it'll be more useful making synthetic liquid hydrocarbon, but only if we can accept it'll never actually be "efficient".

We still use Gas to prop up the "renewables", because they are inherently unreliable. Hydrogen isn't the answer to that, unless you want to overprovision the "renewables" to the point of lunacy. We need something better. I don't have the answer, but if Greta can address the UN with nothing other than teenage angst and rage whilst providing zero constructive input, then I can state the problems without providing any solutions either.

[Homestar]

Maybe you could put a 10kva diesel generator in the back to power the batteries?

I know that's tongue in cheek but running that flat out would take 10 hours to charge it - so it can drive another hour and half down the road. [biggrin]

[John_D4]

I know that's tongue in cheek but running that flat out would take 10 hours to charge it - so it can drive another hour and half down the road. [biggrin]

That’s an easy fix…you just need a mine sized generator and you’ll need to run it full time while tire driving. Problem solved!

I should apply for a job with the EPA!

[Tombie]

That’s an easy fix…you just need a mine sized generator and you’ll need to run it full time while tire driving. Problem solved!

I should apply for a job with the EPA!

When would you like it delivered? [emoji56]

[BradC]

When would you like it delivered? [emoji56]

Question is, can you supply ~100KVA on a suitably braked trailer with a wet GTM of under 3.2kkg including 12 hours of fuel?

Ok, you’re probably right, 80KVA would do. Does that leave room for a camper?

Who am I kidding, I need solar panels and a wind turbine. Is “green” after all.

[Homestar]

Question is, can you supply ~100KVA on a suitably braked trailer with a wet GTM of under 3.2kkg including 12 hours of fuel?

Ok, you’re probably right, 80KVA would do. Does that leave room for a camper?

Who am I kidding, I need solar panels and a wind turbine. Is “green” after all.

Yep, we have them. 100KVA prime rated with 300 litres of diesel (around 17 hours @ 100% load) - 2,350kg for a standard silenced unit and 2,950kg for a super silent unit. Both legal and tow well. [emoji16][emoji106]

Super silent unit shown below on the back on my Hilux. You need a quote? [emoji38]

180770

[BradC]

Yep, we have them. 100KVA prime rated with 300 litres of diesel (around 17 hours @ 100% load) - 2,350kg for a standard silenced unit and 2,950kg for a super silent unit. Both legal and tow well. [emoji16][emoji106]

Super silent unit shown below on the back on my Hilux. You need a quote? [emoji38]

Maybe. I'm starting to think there is money to be made as an EV rescue vehicle.

[PhilipA]

Have a look at Hoovies latest vlog and you will see the complexity of the Lightning as he pulls some of the covers off with the Car Wizard.
2 cooling systems etc.
I don't believe that Ford can successfully make something so complex reliable judging by their recent engineering efforts.

BTW the headline about 70000 orders is not impressive. That equates to say 7000 orders for a new model in Australia. In the halcyon days of Ford Australia we used to exceed that number easily for a new falcon model.

[JDNSW]

I don't think the number is particularly impressive, what is impressive is doing it in one day. What is less impressive is that their lack of manufacturing capacity for it made them shut the order book after one day.

[Homestar]

Maybe. I'm starting to think there is money to be made as an EV rescue vehicle.

I've been telling the boss we should sticker one up with some green leaf branding and stick a 100KW fast charger on the drawbar and hire it as a mobile charging station for events, etc... [biggrin][bigwhistle]

[John_D4]

Just saw this

EVERYTHING CARAVAN & CAMPING (https://www.facebook.com/groups/everythingcaravanandcamping/permalink/2198964916978224/)

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220914/37cc31af778b30c3b454dca41ffa1274.png

[Homestar]

Why would they think it would be any different to that outcome when pulling a 2.7 tonne trailer? The math isn't difficult if you have an understanding of EV's - there's plenty of info out there on this.

If you know 3 of the following you can work the forth out
D - Distance (x100)
B - Usable battery size in KWH
W - Total Weight in tonnes
P - KWH per tonne per 100KM - This is close to 10 for larger vehicles - there's info on line about this - it's fairly constant between 2 and 8 tonnes so I'll use 10 for this equation.

The vehicle is 2,950Kg on its own so lets say 5,800Kg with trailer and driver. With a 98KWH battery pack (that's the usable capacity for this car) I would have worked out its range to be 168KM so 104 Miles minus inefficiencies (ie driver behavior, terrain, etc) - around 10% so 94 miles calculated - not far off what they got.

B=PxWxD so D=B/(PxW) so D=98/(10x5.8) = 1.68x100 = 168KM

Ford claim 230 miles for this vehicle so lets work that out based on the above

D=98/(10x2.95) = 332KM or 206 miles - considering OEM's always claim more than can be obtained in reality, the calculation works.

I get where he's coming from - that's not going to cut it for much, but if you are aware of what you have and can work a calculator, he could have been surprises and ****ed off before the trip, not looking around frantically for a charging station.

If more people understood what they were buying and some of the smoke and mirrors were removed, the whole industry would be a lot better off.

[NavyDiver]

Why would they think it would be any different to that outcome when pulling a 2.7 tonne trailer? The math isn't difficult if you have an understanding of EV's - there's plenty of info out there on this.

If you know 3 of the following you can work the forth out
D - Distance (x100)
B - Usable battery size in KWH
W - Total Weight in tonnes
P - KWH per tonne per 100KM - This is close to 10 for larger vehicles - there's info on line about this - it's fairly constant between 2 and 8 tonnes so I'll use 10 for this equation.

The vehicle is 2,950Kg on its own so lets say 5,800Kg with trailer and driver. With a 98KWH battery pack (that's the usable capacity for this car) I would have worked out its range to be 168KM so 104 Miles minus inefficiencies (ie driver behavior, terrain, etc) - around 10% so 94 miles calculated - not far off what they got.

B=PxWxD so D=B/(PxW) so D=98/(10x5.8) = 1.68x100 = 168KM

Ford claim 230 miles for this vehicle so lets work that out based on the above

D=98/(10x2.95) = 332KM or 206 miles - considering OEM's always claim more than can be obtained in reality, the calculation works.

I get where he's coming from - that's not going to cut it for much, but if you are aware of what you have and can work a calculator, he could have been surprises and ****ed off before the trip, not looking around frantically for a charging station.

If more people understood what they were buying and some of the smoke and mirrors were removed, the whole industry would be a lot better off.

I was doing that for a post in EV General chat (https://www.aulro.com/afvb/alternate-energies/271840-ev-general-discussion-post3163157.html#post3163157)

Its interesting as Large EV Mining trucks at "246.56t " must use a LOT of battery to get out of a deep mining pit. BHP/CAT doing it is going to be amazing to watch. The details I can find are a bit thin which is frustrating. I have asked the nice BHP shareholder contact for a few details on the battery size/ recharging and load size reduction due to the battery weight.

Back on topic the 86 miles on the F150ev with the van. It is a good starting point- Not nearly enough of course. My quirky MG gets more than 138km but a lot less than WPTL and clearly not a towing option[bigrolf]

[Homestar]

I was doing that for a post in EV General chat (https://www.aulro.com/afvb/alternate-energies/271840-ev-general-discussion-post3163157.html#post3163157)

Its interesting as Large EV Mining trucks at "246.56t " must use a LOT of battery to get out of a deep mining pit. BHP/CAT doing it is going to be amazing to watch. The details I can find are a bit thin which is frustrating. I have asked the nice BHP shareholder contact for a few details on the battery size/ recharging and load size reduction due to the battery weight.

Back on topic the 86 miles on the F150ev with the van. It is a good starting point- Not nearly enough of course. My quirky MG gets more than 138km but a lot less than WPTL and clearly not a towing option[bigrolf]

Not sure what their KWH/T/KM is but if we say 10 like a small truck, then you'd need around 100,000KWH to do 30KM which would get you down and up a pit once on a large site, twice on a smaller site. Assuming these trucks would have a battery swap type system. What I don't get is a lot of large mines are powered by huge diesel generator farms, so it seems like a backward step to do away with the diesel engine on the truck and charge the battery off essentially the same engine somewhere else with extra losses in the system.

[NavyDiver]

Not sure what their KWH/T/KM is but if we say 10 like a small truck, then you'd need around 100,000KWH to do 30KM which would get you down and up a pit once on a large site, twice on a smaller site. Assuming these trucks would have a battery swap type system. What I don't get is a lot of large mines are powered by huge diesel generator farms, so it seems like a backward step to do away with the diesel engine on the truck and charge the battery off essentially the same engine somewhere else with extra losses in the system.

Fully agree its is odd IF it is diesel generator farm to charge the batteries. Gold Fields a big South African gold company is saving a bucket load of cash by not using diesel generators at some of its sites. Just the huge cost of shifting 1000s of tonnes of diesel to remote sites is significant. The Price we pay by a factor of ??? 5 times plus at some remote mine places.

It is not just about C02[thumbsupbig] 20,000 solar panel plans for BHP (https://www.bhp.com/news/articles/2022/07/solar-panels-begin-installation-in-northern-goldfields) as some sites 51000 at another[bigwhistle]
"Leinster Nickel Operation in the Northern Goldfields. By the end of 2022, over 20,000 solar panels will be installed at this site alone, helping to power BHP Nickel West’s mining and concentrating operations at Leinster.
At Mt Keith Operation there are even more - with over 51,000 solar panels going in" that is a BIT of the power needed not all of it!

Once or twice in and out of a mine pit is really not enough I suspect. The Load per trip is a key, IF battery is 10-20 tonnes that comes out of the load the tuck can carry. The regerative braking might recover 10-20% of the energy on the trip back down of course. That may be for both FCEV and BEV.


"Mining group BHP and construction equipment manufacturer Caterpillar have signed an agreement to electrify BHP’s entire truck fleet at the Escondida copper mine in Chile. The first Caterpillar 798 AC electric dump trucks are to be delivered in the second half of 2023."

BHP seems to be in with Komatsu as well as Cat.

"Komatsu forms alliance to decarbonise mining trucks (https://www.electrive.com/2021/08/05/komatsu-forms-alliance-to-decarbonise-mining-trucks/)"


Not happening yesterday of course. Nor is my Disco replacement or Refit[thumbsupbig]

[NavyDiver]

Be interesting if they can make the garbage truck - A lot quieter

Suspect the prices are Introductory and [B]very high at present.



https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=F6xudMJM1yc&t=1s

Electric trucks | Volvo Trucks (https://www.volvotrucks.com.au/en-au/trucks/electric-trucks.html)