Lithium batteries

[incisor]

what brands of lithium batteries are people using that they are happy with ?

[Milton477]

CALB 180aH individual cells: 4 in series to make a battery with my own BMS.

[reefmagnet]

CALB 180aH individual cells: 4 in series to make a battery with my own BMS.

Yep, probably old tech now by some standards, but I reckon the most rugged.
https://lh3.googleusercontent.com/p6HUltP_WpuXAmJTCJcUHWgP5vQOo9H18TWfrWngCmCbpahrF4 DePL8WIaLLZrpj1RcIepNOvY_YZc39k9uyJygNbfAW1CQfjiGh LgDfHxzlFwbUmDPGy5MiEk2rI51OKsJ9ITI4OrvgkK_J1oyVoy lU0en7EK52oVE-yiIjucfWj_0_Lq1kA6l9_bI48DJZeI_XQ8NlGBns6Ln0tAOmIJ lauAEC6NqOsonpEepHB5rezxaeBiM84qb8vF4kBDYo1XsVfpEs rIRpT6VRCYRSyQeAuFG4rrfRhxQ_o4555raoWMqPlV_o0-TsqExFrwUR1FgQphfg2hy8fpzhV0BEgrRpCNkTZkCVXrSiKKFi S9inY0modN5G-FqrQ2yVtH2dzSnNFwRQhi_e4U9DQgZ8kCxI9Kvo3n-vgYj7t64vnCzoZq8Pk_0yptTXKtu2FM3mLyjmZ56ZCPJMDFkgQ RreB6APqV1mN711i_Pkyrdi4BArVDLTi6I-bGDGiOLDirLl3O8fLODRF-cScfQD7JnqvKZY8Ixwjks1M0KJDCXioxqD2zOlbASTZ89XiGAv 24f3rwIftymLxtwLwxKo50VQlDtsMPqMFnEpWfzYxrnD_R1XnJ XqFn18ll4IYQ8F66wJmOPfHi6Xm244pBA_I5uALGIyv1H2L8O_ qnYV5KTaTZkyGBRDDcbkYlo6UUmJjT_UMy2lO0CGapYrz4hVXd 5Ydse_=w2137-h1203-no?authuser=0

[W&KO]

Probably need to advise price range……

Thought you recently purchased a lithium battery?

I have Enerdrive, happy with my purchase at the time (Must be coming up to 2 year ownership now) and have confidence they will get us through our 2 year trip without worry but……

there’s lots to choose from and from reading a bunch of difference forums and pages what every installs they’ll tell you it’s the best.

I reckon in my next build I’ll have a go at building my own…..

[Ranga]

Just bought 2 of these SHG 12V 100Ah LiFePO4 Lithium Iron Battery (https://www.access2qld.com.au/products/shg-12v-100ah-lifepo4-lithium-iron-battery?_pos=6&_sid=73e522372&_ss=r) for $1000. Handy in the fact that running in parallel they double the continuous discharge. Just had a Fraser holiday last week, and even with cloudy conditions and not bothering to face my solar panel towards the sun, had the most stress-free energy solution ever.

The supplier in Perth is very helpful and gets excellent reviews and referrals, which gives me confidence in buying these batteries.

[ozscott]

Inc drop into Big Wei at Slacks Creek. Its like cutting out the middle man and getting it straight from the people who bring the cells and BMS's in and make it all come together on site. You can inspect the innards and cases etc and pay way under what others are selling the same gear for. Cheers

[PeterJ]

CALB 180aH individual cells: 4 in series to make a battery with my own BMS.Yes, was going the same way myself, this was back in 2014, did all the research on the CALB cells, BMS and designed up the compression case. Then, a mob called LFP (Lithium Lab) sent me a news letter (part of the research process, checking out the market) with some big discount specials, turned out that it was only $150 or so more expensive than diy, no brainer really.
So, one of their 300Ah packs went into the van, I discharge tested brand new and with more conservative cut off voltages than specified got 290Ah out of it and it's been powering the van ever since, a bit of an EWAG, but it must be +1000 cycles, a quality bit of kit, excellent design and manufacture using CALB cells.

[Hoges]

For what it's worth... I bought a $799 Powertech LiPO4 100AH with 3 yr warranty from Jaycar several months ago. I use it irregularly... usually for lighting and a Bushman fridge on the back deck, or as a power supply for compressor for checking tyres etc. It's connected to a Victron smart meter. so far so good. The biggest benefit is that my aged back no longer struggles...compared to the previous Supercharge 100AH deep cycle, the Li is positively 'lightweight'![thumbsupbig]

[Homestar]

Couldn't think of anywhere else to post this so reviving this thread for all things Lithium Battery related that's not EV.

Seems the Marine Industry is the most risk averse still - Insurers lose spark for lithium-ion boat batteries - boatsales.com.au (https://www.boatsales.com.au/editorial/details/insurers-lose-spark-for-lithium-ion-boat-batteries-135999/)

Not an issue in Australia yet, but if other parts of the world jump, I'm sure local insurers here will follow suit.

[PhilipA]

They are talking lithium ion batteries LION . They are not the same as LiFePO4 batteries as fitted in car shaped packaging.
LION batteries are like Tesla batteries which have to be cooled and heated to take a charge and are much denser and lighter than LiFe PO4 batteries. Or like phone batteries.

I also think the writer seems ignorant of the difference as one would think that boat owners would replace lead acid batteries with LiFePO4 of similar shape and size.
Electric boats may of course have LION for the same reason Tesla and the other EV manufacturers have them,weight vs range.
Regards PhilipA

[Homestar]

But do the insurance companies understand this? Likely not.

[Redtail]

They are talking lithium ion batteries LION . They are not the same as LiFePO4 batteries as fitted in car shaped packaging.
LION batteries are like Tesla batteries which have to be cooled and heated to take a charge and are much denser and lighter than LiFe PO4 batteries. Or like phone batteries.

I also think the writer seems ignorant of the difference as one would think that boat owners would replace lead acid batteries with LiFePO4 of similar shape and size.
Electric boats may of course have LION for the same reason Tesla and the other EV manufacturers have them,weight vs range.
Regards PhilipA

LiFePO4 is a subset of lithium-ion chemistry. Li-ion also includes nickel-manganese-cobalt, nickel-cobalt-aluminium and others.
Tesla has switched to LiFePO4 in their newer models in high production in China. I believe other Chinese manufacturers have done the same.

As for car type accessory batteries of the LiFePO4 type, I found this video interesting.
They talk about construction and durability when it comes to off-roading, amongst other things ...
LITHIUM VS AGM BATTERY for Overlanding. Should I spend the money? - YouTube (https://youtu.be/nH7XmprkbOM)
(noting it's 2 years old, so pricing is out of whack, and IIRC, lead-crystal gets a mention)

[drivesafe]

Hi Redtail and just be aware, the guy in that video is a moron and has no idea what he is talking about.

The video is full of misinformation and just out and out B/S.

If you are seriously considering going to Lithium batteries, you need to become a bit of an expert on the subject first, because most lithium battery sellers have business morals equal to that of an alley cat on heat.

If you are watching these types of videos, the first warning is when they claim you can not take a lead acid battery, be it folded or AGM, below 50% SoC .

This is total crap and there is no battery manufacturer that states anything like that.

Most state their batteries can be cycled down to 20% and a number now state their batteries can be cycled to 0% SoC.


Again, YOU need to become the expert.

[incisor]

LTO batteries are making headway

22000 cycles down to near 0%

a tad expensive though...

[Redtail]

Hi Redtail and just be aware, the guy in that video is a moron and has no idea what he is talking about.

The video is full of misinformation and just out and out B/S.

If you are seriously considering going to Lithium batteries, you need to become a bit of an expert on the subject first, because most lithium battery sellers have business morals equal to that of an alley cat on heat.

If you are watching these types of videos, the first warning is when they claim you can not take a lead acid battery, be it folded or AGM, below 50% SoC .

This is total crap and there is no battery manufacturer that states anything like that.

Most state their batteries can be cycled down to 20% and a number now state their batteries can be cycled to 0% SoC.


Again, YOU need to become the expert.

Now I'm curious! Which one's the moron? LOL
I personally met with Heiner last week, and he spent an hour going over my requirements, thinking I'll go to lithium when my current AGM expires, but also other bits of kit unrelated to battery type.
But let me say, having had that discussion, it would be a totally uneconomical and pointless move to lithium for my situation and needs right now.
(Should I change out the car in the next two years, lithium would be a no-brainer, IMHO for many reasons. Again, keeping an open mind until it's time to do so.)

I like to think I do my background research by checking facts when I'm looking for gear and design.
(Having a tame chemistry teacher in the household is quite useful, too.)

Getting back on topic as far as this post goes, I noted the remarks about the battery's physical construction and it not falling apart after 1,000km of corrugations.
This made some sort of sense, having seen a brand new starter battery fall apart on a trip a few years back.

Thanks for the heads up.
I shall endeavour to remain scientifically skeptical!

[DiscoMick]

Our caravan came with an Enerdrive package including a 200amp lithium battery, 2000 watt inverter and 40amp DC-DC charger.
It all works very well.
The research I did suggested the Enerdrive gear is good quality.
The caravan company said they find Enerdrive good to deal with.
Enerdrive have a good YouTube set of videos and an active help line.

[NavyDiver]

what brands of lithium batteries are people using that they are happy with ?

coming back to this on Inc[thumbsupbig]
Time frames for development of New tech is of great interest to me. 1960 theory and 1970 attempts then the real start to Commercialization is really 1991!

Commercialization and advances[edit (https://en.wikipedia.org/w/index.php'title=History_of_the_lithium-ion_battery&action=edit&section=3)]The performance and capacity of lithium-ion batteries increased as development progressed.


1991: Sony (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Sony) and Asahi Kasei (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Asahi_Kasei) released the first commercial lithium-ion battery.[39] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_lithium-ion_battery#cite_note-sony91-39) The Japanese team that successfully commercialized the technology was led by Yoshio Nishi.[40] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_lithium-ion_battery#cite_note-NAE-40)
1996: Goodenough, Akshaya Padhi and coworkers proposed lithium iron phosphate (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium_iron_phosphate) (LiFePO
4) and other phospho-olivines (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olivine) (lithium metal phosphates with the same structure as mineral olivine (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Olivine)) as positive electrode materials.[41] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_lithium-ion_battery#cite_note-41)[42] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_lithium-ion_battery#cite_note-42)
1998: C. S. Johnson, J. T. Vaughey, M. M. Thackeray, T. E. Bofinger, and S. A. Hackney report the discovery of the high capacity high voltage lithium-rich NMC (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium_nickel_manganese_cobalt_oxide) cathode materials.[43] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_lithium-ion_battery#cite_note-43)
2001: Arumugam Manthiram (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Arumugam_Manthiram) and co-workers discovered that the capacity limitations of layered oxide cathodes is a result of chemical instability that can be understood based on the relative positions of the metal 3d band relative to the top of the oxygen 2p band.[44] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_lithium-ion_battery#cite_note-44)[45] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_lithium-ion_battery#cite_note-45)[46] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_lithium-ion_battery#cite_note-46) This discovery has had significant implications for the practically accessible compositional space of lithium ion battery layered oxide cathodes, as well as their stability from a safety perspective.
2001: Christopher Johnson, Michael Thackeray, Khalil Amine, and Jaekook Kim file a patent[47] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_lithium-ion_battery#cite_note-47)[48] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_lithium-ion_battery#cite_note-48) for lithium nickel manganese cobalt oxide (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium_nickel_manganese_cobalt_oxide) (NMC) lithium rich cathodes based on a domain structure.
2001: Zhonghua Lu and Jeff Dahn (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeff_Dahn) file a patent[49] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_lithium-ion_battery#cite_note-49) for the NMC class of positive electrode materials, which offers safety and energy density improvements over the widely used lithium cobalt oxide.
2002: Yet-Ming Chiang (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yet-Ming_Chiang) and his group at MIT (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Massachusetts_Institute_of_Technology) showed a substantial improvement in the performance of lithium batteries by boosting the material's conductivity by doping (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Doping_(semiconductor)) it[50] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_lithium-ion_battery#cite_note-50) with aluminium (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Aluminium), niobium (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Niobium) and zirconium (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Zirconium). The exact mechanism causing the increase became the subject of widespread debate.[51] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_lithium-ion_battery#cite_note-economist-51)
2004: Yet-Ming Chiang (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Yet-Ming_Chiang) again increased performance by utilizing lithium iron phosphate (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium_iron_phosphate) particles of less than 100 nanometers in diameter. This decreased particle density almost one hundredfold, increased the positive electrode's surface area and improved capacity and performance. Commercialization led to a rapid growth in the market for higher capacity lithium-ion batteries, as well as a patent infringement battle between Chiang and John Goodenough (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/John_Goodenough).[51] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_lithium-ion_battery#cite_note-economist-51)
2005: Y Song, PY Zavalij, and M. Stanley Whittingham (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/M._Stanley_Whittingham) report a new two-electron vanadium phosphate cathode material with high energy density[52] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_lithium-ion_battery#cite_note-52)[53] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_lithium-ion_battery#cite_note-53)
2011: Lithium nickel manganese cobalt oxide (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium_nickel_manganese_cobalt_oxide) (NMC) cathodes, developed at Argonne National Laboratory (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Argonne_National_Laboratory), are manufactured commercially by BASF in Ohio.[54] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_lithium-ion_battery#cite_note-54)
2011: Lithium-ion batteries accounted for 66% of all portable secondary (i.e., rechargeable) battery sales in Japan.[55] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_lithium-ion_battery#cite_note-55)
2012: John Goodenough, Rachid Yazami (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Rachid_Yazami) and Akira Yoshino (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Akira_Yoshino) received the 2012 IEEE Medal for Environmental and Safety Technologies (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/IEEE_Medal_for_Environmental_and_Safety_Technologi es) for developing the lithium ion battery.[26] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_lithium-ion_battery#cite_note-ieee-26)
2014: John Goodenough, Yoshio Nishi, Rachid Yazami and Akira Yoshino were awarded the Charles Stark Draper Prize (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Charles_Stark_Draper_Prize) of the National Academy of Engineering (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Academy_of_Engineering) for their pioneering efforts in the field.[56] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_lithium-ion_battery#cite_note-56)
2014: Commercial batteries from Amprius Corp. reached 650 Wh (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Watt-hour)/L (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Litre) (a 20% increase), using a silicon anode and were delivered to customers.[57] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_lithium-ion_battery#cite_note-57)
2016: Koichi Mizushima (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Koichi_Mizushima_(scientist)) and Akira Yoshino received the NIMS Award from the National Institute for Materials Science (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/National_Institute_for_Materials_Science), for Mizushima's discovery of the LiCoO2 cathode material for the lithium-ion battery and Yoshino's development of the lithium-ion battery.[58] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_lithium-ion_battery#cite_note-NIMS-58)
2016: Z. Qi, and Gary Koenig reported a scalable method to produce sub-micrometer sized LiCoO
2 using a template-based approach.[59] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_lithium-ion_battery#cite_note-59)
2019: The Nobel Prize in Chemistry (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Nobel_Prize_in_Chemistry) was given to John Goodenough, Stanley Whittingham and Akira Yoshino "for the development of lithium ion batteries".[60] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_lithium-ion_battery#cite_note-nobel-60)
2022: Battery startup SPARKZ announced plans to convert a glass plant in Bridgeport, WV (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Bridgeport,_West_Virginia) to produce zero-cobalt (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Cobalt) lithium batteries (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Lithium-ion_battery).[61] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/History_of_the_lithium-ion_battery#cite_note-61)



"wiki copy and paste"

What interesting in that list is 2001 Dr Jeff Dahn (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Jeff_Dahn) He is now working for/with the company NOT the one Solid state battery one that paid for my EV[thumbsupbig]

"Jeff Dahn is the Chief Scientific Advisor to NOVONIX Professor Jeff Dahn is a leading researcher in the field of lithium-ion batteries and materials and currently holds the title of NSERC/Tesla Canada Industrial Research Chair with Dalhousie University"

The time frame, Commercialization and advances for the next gen is helped I think by the sheer brute computing power now available to test and simulate models of new tech

Some might have heard of him? Try "In 2019, Jeff Dahn was among the first people to suggest that an EV battery might last for one million miles (https://cleantechnica.com/2019/09/09/jeff-dahn-claims-new-pouch-cells-could-be-good-for-1-million-miles/) before it needed replacement. Today, he and his researchers have published a paper in the Journal of the Electrochemical Society (https://iopscience.iop.org/article/10.1149/1945-7111/ac67b5) that suggests a battery that can last for 100 years is possible. The paper has the rather engaging title of Li[Ni0.5Mn0.3Co0.2]O2 as a Superior Alternative to LiFePO4 for Long-Lived Low Voltage Li-Ion Cells. It’s a page-turner, to be sure, and anyone who chooses to delve more deeply into it is welcome to do so"

New syntech Graphite is of double interest to me due to Hazer Hydrogen in WA which spits out two tonnes of Graphite for every tonnes of Hydrogen

NOVONIX Anode Materials - Novonix (novonixgroup.com) (https://www.novonixgroup.com/novonix-anode-materials/)

Battery changes are both extremely fast and slow

Not investment advice just my interest in time frames :)