Lithium Ion Batteries in motor vehicles....potential danger

[ramblingboy42]

I wanted to put this in a new thread to highlight the potential risk from these batteries.

I have just read an article about recycling lithium ion batteries from electric vehicles and am shocked at what has been revealed.

Already , many thousands of batteries have been recalled from vehicles and homes because of faults.

My biggest concern is the electrolyte used in these batteries which has an "un-named" salt which when brought into contact with water creates hydroflouric acid.

Hydroflouric acid is the most dangerous chemical known to man. It's potential is so high that hospitals have a special risk unit always ready in case of accidents with HF.

Petroleum refineries use HF as part of their catalyst in making fuel. If any of you , like I , have done refinery shutdowns , especially if you are anywhere near the catalyst area , you will have done the relevant induction on HF , which is enough to almost make you pack up and go home.

For example , during a shutdown at Brisbane's BP refinery , while disassembling some valvework on the catalyzer , I saw a "white snake" which visually indicates HF. I immediately contacted the emergency response who put out a general emergency alarm and all employees were immediately removed to safety zones while the response team came out in top dress and played water on the suspected area for about an hour. All emergency services and the hospital were stood to. This product is that dangerous. I recieved a "hit" from that HF even though I was nowhere actually near it , and spent the rest of my day under observation.

My other concern is , if , in a motor vehicle accident , the battery cases are ruptured and fire/rescue personnel play water on the accident scene , the chance to accidently produce HF is very real , with potentially tragic results.

For those of you who understand my concerns , you can very quickly search HF acid and its dangers , you may be shocked by what you read.

If you wish to reply to this post , please dont quote me , just use the reply to thread ......thanks

[Tombie]

Good old HFA… very nasty stuff.

Closest you will come to it on a vehicle is using Viton o’rings. If they get cooked too much and very elevated temps they can release it too.

[RANDLOVER]

Good old HFA… very nasty stuff.

Closest you will come to it on a vehicle is using Viton o’rings. If they get cooked too much and very elevated temps they can release it too.

IIRC thousands of chemicals are approved for use every year, however they are safety tested in isolation, so if they become part of a a combo in a fire, flood, impact, etc no one really knows what is going to happen.

[Tote]

New technologies bring new risks. A co worker is in the SES. Once upon a time the biggest risk in fixing storm damage was falling off the roof. Now it is the potentially live and unable to be effectively isolated solar panels that adorn many roofs.

Regards,
Tote

[BradC]

Good old HFA… very nasty stuff.

Closest you will come to it on a vehicle is using Viton o’rings. If they get cooked too much and very elevated temps they can release it too.

The most likely source in a vehicle is the A/C. Spray r134a (1,1,1,2-Tetrafluoroethane) on a hot enough surface and it decomposes with one of the major components being HF.

[RANDLOVER]

The most likely source in a vehicle is the A/C. Spray r134a (1,1,1,2-Tetrafluoroethane) on a hot enough surface and it decomposes with one of the major components being HF.

To make car a/c's safer/greener some now fill them with propane (aka R-290 IIRC). Microsoft Word - Oct2012vasa_HCwhite_paper.doc (https://vasa.org.au/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/Oct2012vasa_HCwhite_paper.pdf)

[BradC]

To make car a/c's safer/greener some now fill them with propane (aka R-290 IIRC). Microsoft Word - Oct2012vasa_HCwhite_paper.doc (https://vasa.org.au/wp-content/uploads/2012/10/Oct2012vasa_HCwhite_paper.pdf)

I don't pay a great deal of attention to what VASA says. They're a bit of a political animal and are prone to hysteria.

On that note though, yes people do put R290 (propane) in their vehicles in place of the designed refrigerant. Not a great move, in that the pressures are significantly higher than what the system is designed for. Might be ok unless you hit a corner case and pop something. Then again, in a Discovery 3 (for example) you'll find you hit the upper head pressure limit far earlier than you should and wind up with no cooling on a stinking hot day as the system protects itself. Don't do that.

On the other hand, there are hydrocarbon replacements with the right PT characteristics and better performance than the original Fluorinated refrigerants but you need to understand what you are doing to prevent system damage. For example, should you choose to use Hychill, don't use their recommended weight charts but calculate your replacement refrigerant volume based on the original refrigerant and name-plate charge.

[RANDLOVER]

I don't pay a great deal of attention to what VASA says. They're a bit of a political animal and are prone to hysteria.

On that note though, yes people do put R290 (propane) in their vehicles in place of the designed refrigerant............

Yes I think R-290 is propane cut with a bit of butane, not sure what difference that makes as all the ...panes/..anes are just hydrocarbon chains that is to say, hydrogen carbon combo's "A two-carbon chain is called ethane; a three-carbon chain, propane; and a four-carbon chain, butane." Hydrocarbons | Chemistry for Majors: Atoms First (lumenlearning.com) (https://courses.lumenlearning.com/chemistryatomsfirst/chapter/hydrocarbons/)

[BradC]

Yes I think R-290 is propane cut with a bit of butane, not sure what difference that makes as all the

No. R290 is propane. R600 is butane. R600a is iso-butane. The difference is in the boiling temperatures.
Using butane will wind up with liquid at typical evaporating temperatures and destroy valves in the compressor. ...panes/..anes are just hydrocarbon chains that is to say, hydrogen carbon combo's "A two-carbon chain is called ethane; a three-carbon chain, propane; and a four-carbon chain, butane." Hydrocarbons | Chemistry for Majors: Atoms First (lumenlearning.com) (https://courses.lumenlearning.com/chemistryatomsfirst/chapter/hydrocarbons/)

R12/R134a replacements are typically a 60/40 blend of Propane and Iso-Butane to match the PT curve of R12.

Here's one I knocked up a while back. OZ-12 is the roughly 60/40 mix and pretty much the same as Hychill. Y is pressure PSI, X is temperature in C.
You can see that on a stinking hot summers day, when your condensing at ~70C your head pressure with pure Propane is significantly higher than the alternatives.
http://www.fnarfbargle.com/private/150929-Car-AC2/ptchart.png

[scarry]

The most likely source in a vehicle is the A/C. Spray r134a (1,1,1,2-Tetrafluoroethane) on a hot enough surface and it decomposes with one of the major components being HF.

Phosgene was pretty bad as well,dont ask me how i know...[bigsad]

[BradC]

Phosgene was pretty bad as well,dont ask me how i know...[bigsad]

I'm horrified at the thought.

[prelude]

Personally I dislike lithium batteries A LOT. They are "sold" as being the best thing for the environment since creation or something but that is looking purely at CO2 (a discussion we probably should not get into at this point :P)

From a holistic point of view the batteries source materials cause considerable damage to the environment, they are not very recyclable (last info I have is around 60%) and they are outright dangerous. As I am building my vehicle (and changing it) I have one paramount fact in my mind: WEIGHT. So for overlanding purposes they seem to be the bees knees in that regard but I am very much at the point where I am considering putting lead acid in my vehicle and accept the weight but at least have a battery that doesn't have all the downsides of lithium and has a track record, for many decades already, of 99% recyclability.

Cheers,
-P

[PhilipA]

LiFePO4 is much safer than Lithium Ion, but weighs more and is more bulky.
However everything is relative.
My LiFePO4 100AH caravan battery weighs about 12.75Kg vs 35Kg for an AGM 120AH, which is still down on usable power. I have both at present.
My wife's golf buggy just loves its 24AH LiFePO4 battery, which can last 27 holes and weighs a tiny fraction of the previous Sonnenschein AGM . I have used LiFePO4 for about 4 years now in the buggy battery without any downside.

The main reason for the golf buggy is that my wife found the AGM very heavy after 18 holes and the buggy was losing power. The Lithium in the caravan is pretty new so I will report any incidents.
Regards PhilipA

[RANDLOVER]

I notice in Qld they are putting a little blue triangle in the middle of the number plates to denote hybrid batteries, just like they do with little red diamonds for LPG.

[reefmagnet]

LiFePO4 batteries are arguably safer than lead acid. Plenty of youtube video's of people doing intentionally crazy things with them in an attempt to have them explode and burst into flame. In my experience I'd say they are safer, but you need to ensure the terminals cannot accidentally be shorted and adequately fused simply due to the high currents and potential duration thereof they can pass and the resultant associated dangers. The biggest issue with safety would likely more be related to the plethora of cheap manufacturers that will most likely pop up as the batteries become more and more mainstream rather than any inherent danger of the chemistry.

Recycling is another matter, but this needs to be addressed very urgently as usage ramps up.

[bob10]

What happens to used EV car batteries? According to this article the used batteries could be the Achilles heel of the transport revolution, or they could be the gold mine that makes it real. My knowledge of lithium batteries is very low level, so I found this to be informative.;

Cars Are Going Electric. What Happens to the Used Batteries? | WIRED (https://www.wired.com/story/cars-going-electric-what-happens-used-batteries/?bxid=5cc9e26e3f92a477a0ea0693&cndid=52475003&esrc=growl2-regGate-1120&hashc=c17365ab07572ed90614d245ada5ad675f6bc00189fa 766123c70d76d1d7cddf&mbid=mbid%3DCRMWIR012019%0A%0A&source=EDT_WIR_NEWSLETTER_0_DAILY_ZZ&utm_brand=wired&utm_campaign=aud-dev&utm_content=B&utm_mailing=WIR_Daily_110221&utm_medium=email&utm_source=nl&utm_term=P4)

[prelude]

TL;DR we need to do something about the recycling. Yes, we knew that already. Funny thing is that the article says that around 50% of the batteries components could be used to make new batteries. That's is a shockingly low number compared to lead acid where that number goes up to 98%.

Yes, I know all the hate that battery technology gets but seriously. If I combine a rant from John Cadogan recently about ev's, again TL;DR the second household ca ie. the schoolrunner would be perfect when electric, does'nt need a massive range and could easily be done with lead acid batteries (and still be made to be snappy enough I assure you).

BUt as I alluded in another post on the subject, we never seem to make the "right" choices :)

-P