Consequences of buying an EV

[spudfan]

Interesting tv on some of the consequences of buying an EV.

[prelude]

Yes, I have eluded to this in other posts regarding lithium batteries around the forum before. Last reports I read also seem to indicate child labor to get that cobalt out. Personally, I agree with doing something about the planet, do not get me wrong, but lithium only has a place in my phone or laptop at most!

Glad the information is finally getting out though ;) Not that anything will change most likely...

-P

[NavyDiver]

Interesting tv on some of the consequences of buying an EV.


Its a rough place. A Doc I know well spent a few years working there. Oddly any of our cars have Magnesium almost all of which comes out of China and due to significant power issues a huge deficit of magnesium is likley to impact on car manufactures all over the world in the next few weeks
China says the West should respect its 'own pace' as Europe and US face magnesium supply crisis
A magnesium shortage could have widespread impacts across autos, aerospace, iron or steel, chemicals, beer and soft drinks, and consumer goods.
Morgan Stanley analysts noted that many lightweight alloys relied on magnesium.
"Magnesium's light weight and strengthening properties make it essential for aluminium alloys (eg sheet used in autos, beverage cans)," they wrote.
"It is also used for die-casting auto parts, as a desulphurising agent in steel, to make ductile iron, in chemicals and more." link (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-10-27/magnesium-shortage-in-europe-and-us-china-slows-down-supply/100570048) add in computer chip issues and its a bit of a mess plus.

[mylesaway]

And it gets worse....

https://www.drive.com.au/news/electric-vehicle-surge-hit-by-nickel-shortage/

[spudfan]

Anyone telling you they are buying an EV to ensure a better future for their children would need to have a look at the birth defects among the local children. I watched this from the point of view of being a parent and it was a sobering look. Then are other issues raised but being a parent that really hit home.

[NavyDiver]

Fully agree mining practices and abuse in DRC needs fixing and accountablity.

The costs from air pollution are sadly easy to count making our cars a known health hazard via several carcinogenic and cancer causing exhaust fumes of course. Even here in OZ.

I just a read an article on Simon Holmes a Court in the paper today (https://www.theage.com.au/national/simon-holmes-court-if-it-works-the-payoff-will-be-enormous-20210916-p58sbn.html). My battery gent IT Business and battery guru name was unsurprisingly linked in. Given its a climate/political party I'll leave the links to the political disruption party in the article in Current affairs.


I am just finishing an emailing Mr Hackett (My Battery guru) re his batteries yesterdays saving my and other bacon and allowing hundreds of vaccination while others were shut down here. Rather smug that I didn't wait for the other big name battery brand for a number of reasons. Pretty sure he will like the feed back. One is I can change the system to allow me to over come issues the inflexibility of another battery type would not allow. My multiple laser printers are a 20,000w start up P.I.T.A. I was able to overcome with the flexibility and control a lithium type would not have given me.
Vaccines have some problems/side effects/limitations, EV batteries do as well in range, recahrge times and wieght capacity. My cool D3 has a few benifits and side effects as well of course. It would be disengenous to ingnor the side effects/issues off any of our options or choices.

Have a great weekend all. Coffee in a cup for me while beating up PRODA/Medical Software integration on my week end to do list. Inflexablity assured with Medicare/Government Online services [bighmmm][bighmmm][bighmmm] Nice idea just removed the good bits to force another slower way D.O.H.

[RANDLOVER]

For those worried about EV vs ICE cars.....I'm thinking of replacing my EV with a petrol car. Can I refuel it at home? (thedriven.io) (https://thedriven.io/2021/08/18/im-thinking-of-replacing-my-ev-with-a-petrol-car-can-i-refuel-it-at-home/)

1. I have heard that petrol cars can not refuel at home while you sleep? How often do you have to refill elsewhere? Is this several times a year? Will there be a solution for refueling at home?

2. Which parts will I need service on and how often? The car salesman mentioned a box with gears in it. What is this and will I receive a warning with an indicator when I need to change gear?
3. Can I accelerate and brake with one pedal as I do today with my electric car?
4. Do I get fuel back when I slow down or drive downhill? I assume so, but need to ask to be sure.
5. The car I test drove seemed to have a delay from the time I pressed the accelerator pedal until it began to accelerate. Is that normal in petrol cars?
6. We currently pay about 1.2p per mile to drive our electric car. I have heard that petrol can cost up to 10 times as much so I reckon we will lose some money in the beginning. We drive about 20,000 miles a year. Let’s hope more people will start using petrol so prices go down.
7. Is it true that petrol is flammable? Should I empty the tank and store the petrol somewhere else while the car is in the garage?
8. Is there an automatic system to prevent gasoline from catching fire or exploding in an accident. What does this cost?
9. I understand that the main ingredient in petrol is oil. Is it true that the extraction and refining of oil causes environmental problems as well as conflicts and major wars that over the last 100 years have cost millions of lives? Is there a solution to these problems?

[spudfan]

Good points well made. No system is perfect.
Look at the rivers that have been damned out of existence. The huge man made lakes behind them that have covered swathes of country and displaced people. Countrys below the dams not to happy with the countries above them cutting off the water. All to generate electricity,
The Ethiopians have been talking of dammming the Nile in their country. The Egyptians say it is their river and have threatened war over it.

[ramblingboy42]

Plenty of Cobalt left around Broken Hill , it didnt have much use in the Hills' heyday. Now there are few small operations mining it....plus a few other minerals that CRA ,South and North didn't want to bother with then.

[gromit]

For those worried about EV vs ICE cars.....I'm thinking of replacing my EV with a petrol car. Can I refuel it at home? (thedriven.io) (https://thedriven.io/2021/08/18/im-thinking-of-replacing-my-ev-with-a-petrol-car-can-i-refuel-it-at-home/)

1. I have heard that petrol cars can not refuel at home while you sleep? How often do you have to refill elsewhere? Is this several times a year? Will there be a solution for refueling at home?

2. Which parts will I need service on and how often? The car salesman mentioned a box with gears in it. What is this and will I receive a warning with an indicator when I need to change gear?
3. Can I accelerate and brake with one pedal as I do today with my electric car?
4. Do I get fuel back when I slow down or drive downhill? I assume so, but need to ask to be sure.
5. The car I test drove seemed to have a delay from the time I pressed the accelerator pedal until it began to accelerate. Is that normal in petrol cars?
6. We currently pay about 1.2p per mile to drive our electric car. I have heard that petrol can cost up to 10 times as much so I reckon we will lose some money in the beginning. We drive about 20,000 miles a year. Let’s hope more people will start using petrol so prices go down.
7. Is it true that petrol is flammable? Should I empty the tank and store the petrol somewhere else while the car is in the garage?
8. Is there an automatic system to prevent gasoline from catching fire or exploding in an accident. What does this cost?
9. I understand that the main ingredient in petrol is oil. Is it true that the extraction and refining of oil causes environmental problems as well as conflicts and major wars that over the last 100 years have cost millions of lives? Is there a solution to these problems?



That's a funny 'spin' on the situation a bit like the reply from General Motors to the comment by Bill Gates many years back GM replies to Bill Gates (https://www.wussu.com/humour/gm.htm)

I've never been an early adopter and at the moment there isn't an electric vehicle that meets my needs.

If you really want a 'green' vehicle lets go back to making them a 'durable' rather than a 'consumable'. Oh, hang on , I'm running old Land Rovers.....


Colin

[VladTepes]

Anyone telling you they are buying an EV to ensure a better future for their children would need to have a look at the birth defects among the local children. I watched this from the point of view of being a parent and it was a sobering look.

Yes but those local children are not THEIR children, those are African children so really - what you can't see / refuse to look at isn't a problem eh.

Yes sarcasm, but also the way the world is.

[NavyDiver]

Drove the Disco to Western Districts Monday and back last night One tank $120 of fuel and a little left after 800 km. Going back for another chemo, immunotherapy dose taxi ride next week and again and again and .. 3 months of it I must have been a naughty kid!


I will take the ev this week as [B]I can If needed spend the time to charge my daily drive, MGxsEv, short range260 km, was never meant to replace the Disco.

The changes in cancer treatment from just radio therapy, Chemo therapy for my mum 25 year ago to the current seriously new immunotherapy treatment is an evolution as much as the options we might have. My flow batteries at work saved my bacon during Fridays Power outages. Just lent several hundred vaccines to other places that tossed all of theirs in the bin.

Stuff changes. Adaption and evolution do not have to be painful.

Cancer treatment is sadly still PITA plus.

Just in case you think I have become a missery guts I went for a run. 10KM- [thumbsupbig] Along the beach. Over here and around ...
I have heard of drivers, bikes and runners drawing pics. Mine was a hoot I think

174862

[NavyDiver]

Ouch "OPEC and Russia won’t expand oil output faster, in a rebuff to President Biden." Link (https://www.nytimes.com/2021/11/04/business/energy-environment/opec-russia-biden.html) Fuel prices are not getting cheaper any time soon!


On the down side for my little EV (No bothered myself) 7963km total traveled for tax charge to Vic Roads.. $68.95

About 2000 new km for TAX sorry
OUCH THAT hurt not[biggrin] zip servicing cost. Zero$ re charging. I hate my ev[bigwhistle]

Servicing the Disco next week. I should be scared. I remember humming "Always Look on the Bright side of life" paying for it in the past [biggrin]


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=SJUhlRoBL8M

[RANDLOVER]

Anyone telling you they are buying an EV to ensure a better future for their children would need to have a look at the birth defects among the local children. I watched this from the point of view of being a parent and it was a sobering look. Then are other issues raised but being a parent that really hit home.

It's not just cars but clothes too. How G20 nations like Australia are contributing to premature deaths from air pollution globally - ABC News (https://www.abc.net.au/news/health/2021-11-03/china-pollution-premature-deaths-consumption-g20-australia/100587352)

[VladTepes]

@NavyDiver

Beautiful part of the world.

Your mission, should you choose to accept it - is to run a path to make a fairy pattern or a fairy penguin pattern. Take your pick :)

[NavyDiver]

@NavyDiver

Beautiful part of the world.

Your mission, should you choose to accept it - is to run a path to make a fairy pattern or a fairy penguin pattern. Take your pick :)

I prefer the bruces of the deep myself.. They use penguins for tooth flossing [biggrin] big bruisers and very misunderstood[bigrolf]


Got a receipt for the EV tax. 2.5cents per km traveled. I can live with that.

[prelude]

I've never been an early adopter and at the moment there isn't an electric vehicle that meets my needs.

If you really want a 'green' vehicle lets go back to making them a 'durable' rather than a 'consumable'. Oh, hang on , I'm running old Land Rovers.....


Colin

This. I used to be an early adopter, mainly in IT and electronics stuff for 20 years. Can't say that it was a big problem but I bought into stuff that didn't make it (beta vs vhs anyone?) In any case, I have grown to be a bit more conservative and I do believe EV's should not have been pushed into the mainstream BEFORE the battery and charging issues were properly solved. It's the same with lighting and other "green energy" things. I'll give it one example and then let it rest before we digress to far: LED lights have a (sometimes much) lower CRI (colour rendering index) and personally, in my basement it does not really matter I guess but where I live I like "good" light. Also, a LED is a bunch of chemicals and metals brought together in a small form factor that is likely not going to be recycled or is not easy to do so in the first place. Looking at the outgoing standard: the incandescent lightbulb, it's glass, metal and vacuum. (a bit of glue perhaps for the base) all stuff that is very easy to recycle.

Way more recyclable and much easier on the eyes. Surely if we have our energy needs taken care of in the "greenest" possibly way, we should be switching back right?

-P

[Saitch]

at the moment there isn't an electric vehicle that meets my needs.


Here you go, gromit. I reckon I'd get in, but being an old fart, getting out may be fun.

174966

[NavyDiver]

Got my British sports car EV (NOT) to Port Fairy in 3 slow steps- SLOW charge in Geelong, Colac, Warrnambool. It was not fully charged before i left. The Fast charge I had planned was off line leaving me a bit stuffed Note my car is NOT a long range big battery type

Mum to Chemo win.

With just 3/4 charge from a power point over night, I took an alternate route home. Came home via Ballarat as a few fast charge options RACV /charge fox. First time I have been able to pay for power! Invoice was "Charging for 52mins, 36.20kWh @ $0.40/kWh $14.48"

Trip back home was[B] much quicker doing that. Just one 60min stop and chat with my sister was much much better I think.

Government suggesting a big increase in chargers sounded great "the federal government will partner with the private sector to fund 50,000 charging stations[B] in Australian homes,.... " was not news I wanted. Happy to pay for my fuel just need place that I can do it!

[scarry]

Here you go, gromit. I reckon I'd get in, but being an old fart, getting out may be fun.

174966

Looks like he will be standing there for a while doing F all and wasting time.
That wouldn’t suit many.

[V8Ian]

Looks like he will be standing there for a while doing F all and wasting time.
That wouldn’t suit many.
Nah, I think it's a random passer-by happily soaking up the frigid conditions. [bigwhistle]

[Saitch]

Nah, I think it's a random passer-by happily soaking up the frigid conditions. [bigwhistle]

It was bloody cold, I'll have you know, Ian. Why else would I have a Kiwi scarf draped around my neck, whilst in Europe?[biggrin]

That vehicle was very small.

[NavyDiver]

Auto - BYD USA (https://en.byd.com/auto/) The 400, 500 and 600km ranges yet not a disco replacement of course


https://en.byd.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/05/auto-hero-banner.png

[V8Ian]

Red goes fastest, what colour goes furthest? [bighmmm]

[Saitch]

Taken from a Facebook site, so could be BS. I'm feeling a bit 'Bob10'ish' here. No offence intended, Bob!
Bit on the long side but certainly worth the read.

Starts here.

When I saw the title of this lecture, especially with the picture of the scantily clad model, I couldn’t resist attending. The packed auditorium was abuzz with questions about the address; nobody seemed to know what to expect. The only hint was a large aluminum block sitting on a sturdy table on the stage.
When the crowd settled down, a scholarly-looking man walked out and put his hand on the shiny block, “Good evening,” he said, “I am here to introduce NMC532-X,” and he patted the block, “we call him NM for short,” and the man smiled proudly. “NM is a typical electric vehicle (EV) car battery in every way except one; we programmed him to send signals of the internal movements of his electrons when charging, discharging, and in several other conditions. We wanted to know what it feels like to be a battery. We don’t know how it happened, but NM began to talk after we downloaded the program.
Despite this ability, we put him in a car for a year and then asked him if he’d like to do presentations about batteries. He readily agreed on the condition he could say whatever he wanted. We thought that was fine, and so, without further ado, I’ll turn the floor over to NM,” the man turned and walked off the stage.
“Good evening,” NM said. He had a slightly affected accent, and when he spoke, he lit up in different colors. “That cheeky woman on the marquee was my idea,” he said. “Were she not there, along with ‘naked’ in the title, I’d likely be speaking to an empty auditorium! I also had them add ‘shocking’ because it’s a favorite word amongst us batteries.” He flashed a light blue color as he laughed.
“Sorry,” NM giggled then continued, “three days ago, at the start of my last lecture, three people walked out. I suppose they were disappointed there would be no dancing girls. But here is what I noticed about them. One was wearing a battery-powered hearing aid, one tapped on his battery-powered cell phone as he left, and a third got into his car, which would not start without a battery. So I’d like you to think about your day for a moment; how many batteries do you rely on?”
He paused for a full minute which gave us time to count our batteries. Then he went on, “Now, it is not elementary to ask, ‘what is a battery?’ I think Tesla said it best when they called us Energy Storage Systems. That’s important. We do not make electricity – we store electricity produced elsewhere, primarily by coal, uranium, natural gas-powered plants, or diesel-fueled generators. So to say an EV is a zero-emission vehicle is not at all valid. Also, since forty percent of the electricity generated in the U.S. is from coal-fired plants, it follows that forty percent of the EVs on the road are coal-powered, n’est-ce pas?”
He flashed blue again. “Einstein’s formula, E=MC2, tells us it takes the same amount of energy to move a five thousand pound gasoline-driven automobile a mile as it does an electric one. The only question again is what produces the power? To reiterate, it does not come from the battery; the battery is only the storage device, like a gas tank in a car.”
He lit up red when he said that, and I sensed he was smiling. Then he continued in blue and orange. “Mr. Elkay introduced me as NMC532. If I were the battery from your computer mouse, Elkay would introduce me as double-A, if from your cell phone as CR2032, and so on. We batteries all have the same name depending on our design. By the way, the ‘X’ in my name stands for ‘experimental.’
There are two orders of batteries, rechargeable, and single-use. The most common single-use batteries are A, AA, AAA, C, D. 9V, and lantern types. Those dry-cell species use zinc, manganese, lithium, silver oxide, or zinc and carbon to store electricity chemically. Please note they all contain toxic, heavy metals.
Rechargeable batteries only differ in their internal materials, usually lithium-ion, nickel-metal oxide, and nickel-cadmium.
The United States uses three billion of these two battery types a year, and most are not recycled; they end up in landfills. California is the only state which requires all batteries be recycled. If you throw your small, used batteries in the trash, here is what happens to them.
All batteries are self-discharging. That means even when not in use, they leak tiny amounts of energy. You have likely ruined a flashlight or two from an old ruptured battery. When a battery runs down and can no longer power a toy or light, you think of it as dead; well, it is not. It continues to leak small amounts of electricity. As the chemicals inside it run out, pressure builds inside the battery’s metal casing, and eventually, it cracks. The metals left inside then ooze out. The ooze in your ruined flashlight is toxic, and so is the ooze that will inevitably leak from every battery in a landfill. All batteries eventually rupture; it just takes rechargeable batteries longer to end up in the landfill.
In addition to dry cell batteries, there are also wet cell ones used in automobiles, boats, and motorcycles. The good thing about those is, ninety percent of them are recycled. Unfortunately, we do not yet know how to recycle batteries like me or care to dispose of single-use ones properly.
But that is not half of it. For those of you excited about electric cars and a green revolution, I want you to take a closer look at batteries and also windmills and solar panels. These three technologies share what we call environmentally destructive embedded costs.”
NM got redder as he spoke. “Everything manufactured has two costs associated with it, embedded costs and operating costs. I will explain embedded costs using a can of baked beans as my subject.
In this scenario, baked beans are on sale, so you jump in your car and head for the grocery store. Sure enough, there they are on the shelf for $1.75 a can. As you head to the checkout, you begin to think about the embedded costs in the can of beans.
The first cost is the diesel fuel the farmer used to plow the field, till the ground, harvest the beans, and transport them to the food processor. Not only is his diesel fuel an embedded cost, so are the costs to build the tractors, combines, and trucks. In addition, the farmer might use a nitrogen fertilizer made from natural gas.
Next is the energy costs of cooking the beans, heating the building, transporting the workers, and paying for the vast amounts of electricity used to run the plant. The steel can holding the beans is also an embedded cost. Making the steel can requires mining taconite, shipping it by boat, extracting the iron, placing it in a coal-fired blast furnace, and adding carbon. Then it’s back on another truck to take the beans to the grocery store. Finally, add in the cost of the gasoline for your car.
But wait - can you guess one of the highest but rarely acknowledged embedded costs?” NM said, then gave us about thirty seconds to make our guesses. Then he flashed his lights and said, “It’s the depreciation on the 5000 pound car you used to transport one pound of canned beans!”
NM took on a golden glow, and I thought he might have winked. He said, “But that can of beans is nothing compared to me! I am hundreds of times more complicated. My embedded costs not only come in the form of energy use; they come as environmental destruction, pollution, disease, child labor, and the inability to be recycled.”
He paused, “I weigh one thousand pounds, and as you see, I am about the size of a travel trunk.” NM’s lights showed he was serious. “I contain twenty-five pounds of lithium, sixty pounds of nickel, 44 pounds of manganese, 30 pounds cobalt, 200 pounds of copper, and 400 pounds of aluminum, steel, and plastic. Inside me are 6,831 individual lithium-ion cells.
It should concern you that all those toxic components come from mining. For instance, to manufacture each auto battery like me, you must process 25,000 pounds of brine for the lithium, 30,000 pounds of ore for the cobalt, 5,000 pounds of ore for the nickel, and 25,000 pounds of ore for copper. All told, you dig up 500,000 pounds of the earth’s crust for just - one - battery.”
He let that one sink in, then added, “I mentioned disease and child labor a moment ago. Here’s why. Sixty-eight percent of the world’s cobalt, a significant part of a battery, comes from the Congo. Their mines have no pollution controls and they employ children who die from handling this toxic material. Should we factor in these diseased kids as part of the cost of driving an electric car?”
NM’s red and orange light made it look like he was on fire. “Finally,” he said, “I’d like to leave you with these thoughts. California is building the largest battery in the world near San Francisco, and they intend to power it from solar panels and windmills. They claim this is the ultimate in being ‘green,’ but it is not! This construction project is creating an environmental disaster. Let me tell you why.
The main problem with solar arrays is the chemicals needed to process silicate into the silicon used in the panels. To make pure enough silicon requires processing it with hydrochloric acid, sulfuric acid, nitric acid, hydrogen fluoride, trichloroethane, and acetone. In addition, they also need gallium, arsenide, copper-indium-gallium-diselenide, and cadmium-telluride, which also are highly toxic. Silicon dust is a hazard to the workers, and the panels cannot be recycled.
Windmills are the ultimate in embedded costs and environmental destruction. Each weighs 1688 tons (the equivalent of 23 houses) and contains 1300 tons of concrete, 295 tons of steel, 48 tons of iron, 24 tons of fiberglass, and the hard to extract rare earths neodymium, praseodymium, and dysprosium. Each blade weighs 81,000 pounds and will last 15 to 20 years, at which time it must be replaced. We cannot recycle used blades. Sadly, both solar arrays and windmills kill birds, bats, sea life, and migratory insects.
NM lights dimmed, and he quietly said, “There may be a place for these technologies, but you must look beyond the myth of zero emissions. I predict EVs and windmills will be abandoned once the embedded environmental costs of making and replacing them become apparent. I’m trying to do my part with these lectures.
Thank you for your attention, good night, and good luck.” NM’s lights went out, and he was quiet, like a regular battery.

[prelude]

I am glad someone is using his/her head and has even made a lecture on it, with some fun in it even. Nice post!

-P

[NavyDiver]

I am glad someone is using his/her head and has even made a lecture on it, with some fun in it even. Nice post!

-P
Oddly satire is funny if you can see it[biggrin]

[NavyDiver]

My car is a bit less sophisticated happily. Power outages, no mobile 3 4 or 5 G or a software fault- all can bite

:[B]Tesla drivers say they have been locked out of their cars after an outage struck the carmaker's app.



Dozens of owners posted on social media about seeing an error message on the mobile app that was preventing them from connecting to their vehicles.



Tesla chief executive Elon Musk personally responded to one complaint from a driver in South Korea, saying on Twitter: "Checking."



Mr Musk later said the app was coming back online.



The Tesla app is used as a key by drivers to unlock and start their cars.



Owners posted a multitude of complaints online about not being able to use their vehicles.


"I'm stuck an hour away from home because I normally use my phone to start car," one owner tweeted.


About 500 users reported an error on the app at around 16:40 ET (21:40 GMT) on Friday, according to the outage tracking site DownDetector. Five hours later, there were just over 60 reports of an error.



: Tesla drivers left unable to start their cars after outage - BBC News (https://www.bbc.com/news/technology-59357306)

[Homestar]

Anyone who’s dumb enough to rely on their phone to start their car deserves to be stranded IMO.

Stupidity at its best.

[101RRS]

What if you dont have a phone [bighmmm]. Tesla no go [bigrolf]

[3toes]

That’s only a car imagine the same for those people who have similar tech for their houses

[NavyDiver]

One clear effect of buying an EV. Melb- Port fairy return mums Chemo run cost in Disco is $120 + service costs. Ev is $16 ( I found a high speed CCS charge in Ballarat and racv Torquay that charge fast for a few $[biggrin] 10,000 km in EV is yet to cost a service cent[bigwhistle]


Oil price news is interesting. the dump from stragic reserves early this week was a hours worth of fuel and the double counting of it is a bit of a joke[tonguewink]

This is an opinion bit but seemed more than interesting as it doesn't seem to be the oil price that is kicking the fuel prices up and up. (https://www.theage.com.au/business/the-economy/the-bad-oil-biden-s-panicky-move-is-a-failure-20211125-p59byh.html)


A bad bit about my quirky little cheap ev is my son keeps nicking it as he doesn't want to pay for petrol and service on his car :bat::bat::bat: Clearly he has lost the plot as he was RANGE anxiety anti EV type in love with his oil burner until he moved out and started paying[biggrin][biggrin][biggrin]

[NavyDiver]

10400km in the quirky ev and not one service. Due in another 10,000 or so.

Only a few hundred Km traveled in my Disco which the helpful crew at Ritter just serviced and fixed a few bits on. The difference is stark.

I guess 7k in fuel and servicing costs avoided is still in my pocket covering a little of the about 10k the battery cost over the ICE version. A very rough estimate of course.

A "P"erfect driver in a hot Audi with a very loud v 8 did get annoyed with my EV yesterday. I only went to the speed limit promise. My left lane habit and his right lane saw him slowed by cars in front. Slowed behind me saw him swing back behind me then flooring it via the bus lane through a set of traffic lights got a photo taken of him speeding and me smiling [biggrin] I love red light cameras[bigrolf]

[Homestar]

$7K in fuel and servicing over 10,000KM? If a service was say $1,000 every 10,000KM (No idea what a Disco cost to service but my L322 cost $200 in oil and filters so adding $800 here for the dealers apprentices to change it) and using current fuel prices that’s around 33 litres per hundred KM. Even my 101 isn’t that bad.

If you said say 15 litre per 100KM (which is what my 5 tonne Sprinter does) that’s $2,700 in fuel @ $1.80 per litre so unless a service costs more than $4K a pop I’d respectfully suggest either the math is wrong or there’s something really wrong with the disco.

And fuel has been much cheaper than my calcs until recently.

And if you’re working out savings you’d need to factor in all cost associated with the EV like changing at charging stations, rego, etc as I’m assuming your math is working on EV versus driving the Disco as a daily and not having a second car.

Not trying to take away the enjoyment and everything else you get from it - I note there’s a new super charging station just opened in Warnambool and another in Horsham next week that you might be able to make use of on your trips, and a pile of others being installed as we speak so making those longer trips is becoming easier. [emoji106]

Here’s us running the charging station with a less clean power source for commissioning last week. [emoji56][emoji16]

These chargers will pull over 600 amps from the mains when all in use at once - the 250KVA gen shown could only run one charger at a time going full tilt during testing to give you an idea of how much infrastructure needs to be put in and this is a small setup. It needs a new 22KV kiosk and LV switchboard installed on site to power it - just shy of a million dollars for these 3 chargers fully installed - no idea how they are supposed to make anyone any money personally.

175438

[Saitch]

What happens if you only want $30 worth?[smilebigeye]

Can I get a jerrycell for my EV Ride-on?

[NavyDiver]

$7K in fuel and servicing over 10,000KM? If a service was say $1,000 every 10,000KM (No idea what a Disco cost to service but my L322 cost $200 in oil and filters so adding $800 here for the dealers apprentices to change it) and using current fuel prices that’s around 33 litres per hundred KM. Even my 101 isn’t that bad.

If you said say 15 litre per 100KM (which is what my 5 tonne Sprinter does) that’s $2,700 in fuel @ $1.80 per litre so unless a service costs more than $4K a pop I’d respectfully suggest either the math is wrong or there’s something really wrong with the disco.

And fuel has been much cheaper than my calcs until recently.

And if you’re working out savings you’d need to factor in all cost associated with the EV like changing at charging stations, rego, etc as I’m assuming your math is working on EV versus driving the Disco as a daily and not having a second car.

Not trying to take away the enjoyment and everything else you get from it - I note there’s a new super charging station just opened in Warnambool and another in Horsham next week that you might be able to make use of on your trips, and a pile of others being installed as we speak so making those longer trips is becoming easier. [emoji106]

Here’s us running the charging station with a less clean power source for commissioning last week. [emoji56][emoji16]

These chargers will pull over 600 amps from the mains when all in use at once - the 250KVA gen shown could only run one charger at a time going full tilt during testing to give you an idea of how much infrastructure needs to be put in and this is a small setup. It needs a new 22KV kiosk and LV switchboard installed on site to power it - just shy of a million dollars for these 3 chargers fully installed - no idea how they are supposed to make anyone any money personally.

175438

I should have added the 300,000 km++ on my Disco(s) did and does add a fair wack to required maintenance costs[thumbsupbig] that does help my tight wad habit on purchase price of course.

Ying and yang. I did not factor in the new engine my current Disco cost me last year promise[bigwhistle]

Supers charges in Colac and many places are locked to that American chap from South Africans cars [thumbsupbig]. Note that might change soon (https://www.thetimes.co.uk/article/tesla-opens-supercharger-network-to-other-electric-cars-lhhj7j7lz)

My wife has not paid once after the freebie access to them when she brought hers. I do not know how much he charges for what is about $16 in Ballarat or Torquay. Either make it a 30 minute stop to keep the lights on for me and it does cost a lot less than my Disco. Note Boat or camping trailer is NOT EV friendly at all yet [biggrin]

Here is a Aussie news on it (https://thedriven.io/2021/07/21/musk-confirms-tesla-supercharger-network-will-be-open-to-other-evs-soon/)

[Saitch]

https://cfpa-e.eu/container-puts-out-inextinguishable-fires-in-electric-cars/

[superquag]

For those worried about EV vs ICE cars.....I'm thinking of replacing my EV with a petrol car. Can I refuel it at home? (thedriven.io) (https://thedriven.io/2021/08/18/im-thinking-of-replacing-my-ev-with-a-petrol-car-can-i-refuel-it-at-home/)

1. I have heard that petrol cars can not refuel at home while you sleep? How often do you have to refill elsewhere? Is this several times a year? Will there be a solution for refueling at home?

2. Which parts will I need service on and how often? The car salesman mentioned a box with gears in it. What is this and will I receive a warning with an indicator when I need to change gear?
3. Can I accelerate and brake with one pedal as I do today with my electric car?
4. Do I get fuel back when I slow down or drive downhill? I assume so, but need to ask to be sure.
5. The car I test drove seemed to have a delay from the time I pressed the accelerator pedal until it began to accelerate. Is that normal in petrol cars?
6. We currently pay about 1.2p per mile to drive our electric car. I have heard that petrol can cost up to 10 times as much so I reckon we will lose some money in the beginning. We drive about 20,000 miles a year. Let’s hope more people will start using petrol so prices go down.
7. Is it true that petrol is flammable? Should I empty the tank and store the petrol somewhere else while the car is in the garage?
8. Is there an automatic system to prevent gasoline from catching fire or exploding in an accident. What does this cost?
9. I understand that the main ingredient in petrol is oil. Is it true that the extraction and refining of oil causes environmental problems as well as conflicts and major wars that over the last 100 years have cost millions of lives? Is there a solution to these problems?





The Poer of Steam...Doble Steam Car (https://www.overunity.com/8584/doble-steam-car/)

And more here... Doble Engine Blueprints/AutoCAD (https://steamautomobile.com:8443/ForuM/read.php?1,22543)

And now the movies.... 1925 Doble E-20 Steam Car - Jay Leno's Garage - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rUg_ukBwsyo)

[RANDLOVER]

The Poer of Steam...Doble Steam Car (https://www.overunity.com/8584/doble-steam-car/)

And more here... Doble Engine Blueprints/AutoCAD (https://steamautomobile.com:8443/ForuM/read.php?1,22543)

And now the movies.... 1925 Doble E-20 Steam Car - Jay Leno's Garage - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=rUg_ukBwsyo)

People don't quite realise the power of steam, but 1 litre of water when boiled is 1700 litres of steam!

[350RRC]

$7K in fuel and servicing over 10,000KM? If a service was say $1,000 every 10,000KM (No idea what a Disco cost to service but my L322 cost $200 in oil and filters so adding $800 here for the dealers apprentices to change it) ......................

There was a guy on the D3/4 forum recently who wasn't 'hands on' and he reckoned maintenance over longer ownership was costing him $5k p/a.

(that doesn't include things like snapped cranks and inlet manifolds) but does include belts, batteries, alternators, etc.

I don't own one but reading that forum is a bit of an eye opener as far as costs go, and to be fair the crew on it enjoy their vehicles regardless.

DL

[Chenz]

A mate sent me this. An interesting read:

The Shocking Naked Truth—By Bruce Haedrich

When I saw the title of this lecture, especially with the picture of the scantily clad model, I couldn’t resist
attending. The packed auditorium was abuzz with questions about the address; nobody seemed to know what to
expect. The only hint was a large aluminum block sitting on a sturdy table on the stage.
When the crowd settled down, a scholarly-looking man walked out and put his hand on the shiny block, “Good
evening,” he said, “I am here to introduce NMC532-X,” and he patted the block, “we call him NM for short,”
and the man smiled proudly. “NM is a typical electric vehicle (EV) car battery in every way except one; we
programmed him to send signals of the internal movements of his electrons when charging, discharging, and in
several other conditions. We wanted to know what it feels like to be a battery. We don’t know how it happened,
but NM began to talk after we downloaded the program.
Despite this ability, we put him in a car for a year and then asked him if he’d like to do presentations about
batteries. He readily agreed on the condition he could say whatever he wanted. We thought that was fine, and
so, without further ado, I’ll turn the floor over to NM,” the man turned and walked off the stage.
“Good evening,” NM said. He had a slightly affected accent, and when he spoke, he lit up in different colors.
“That cheeky woman on the marquee was my idea,” he said. “Were she not there, along with ‘naked’ in the title,
I’d likely be speaking to an empty auditorium! I also had them add ‘shocking’ because it’s a favorite word
amongst us batteries.” He flashed a light blue color as he laughed.
“Sorry,” NM giggled then continued, “three days ago, at the start of my last lecture, three people walked out. I
suppose they were disappointed there would be no dancing girls. But here is what I noticed about them. One
was wearing a battery-powered hearing aid, one tapped on his battery-powered cell phone as he left, and a third
got into his car, which would not start without a battery. So I’d like you to think about your day for a moment;
how many batteries do you rely on?”
He paused for a full minute which gave us time to count our batteries. Then he went on, “Now, it is not
elementary to ask, ‘what is a battery?’ I think Tesla said it best when they called us Energy Storage Systems.
That’s important. We do not make electricity – we store electricity produced elsewhere, primarily by coal,
uranium, natural gas-powered plants, or diesel-fueled generators. So to say an EV is a zero-emission vehicle is
not at all valid. Also, since forty percent of the electricity generated in the U.S. is from coal-fired plants, it
follows that forty percent of the EVs on the road are coal-powered, n’est-ce pas?”
He flashed blue again. “Einstein’s formula, E=MC2, tells us it takes the same amount of energy to move a five
thousand pound gasoline-driven automobile a mile as it does an electric one. The only question again is what
produces the power? To reiterate, it does not come from the battery; the battery is only the storage device, like a
gas tank in a car.”
He lit up red when he said that, and I sensed he was smiling. Then he continued in blue and orange. “Mr. Elkay
introduced me as NMC532. If I were the battery from your computer mouse, Elkay would introduce me as
double-A, if from your cell phone as CR2032, and so on. We batteries all have the same name depending on our
design. By the way, the ‘X’ in my name stands for ‘experimental.’
There are two orders of batteries, rechargeable, and single-use. The most common single-use batteries are A,
AA, AAA, C, D. 9V, and lantern types. Those dry-cell species use zinc, manganese, lithium, silver oxide, or
zinc and carbon to store electricity chemically. Please note they all contain toxic, heavy metals.
Rechargeable batteries only differ in their internal materials, usually lithium-ion, nickel-metal oxide, and
nickel-cadmium.
The United States uses three billion of these two battery types a year, and most are not recycled; they end up in
landfills. California is the only state which requires all batteries be recycled. If you throw your small, used
batteries in the trash, here is what happens to them.
All batteries are self-discharging. That means even when not in use, they leak tiny amounts of energy. You have likely ruined a flashlight or two from an old ruptured battery. When a battery runs down and can no longer
power a toy or light, you think of it as dead; well, it is not. It continues to leak small amounts of electricity. As
the chemicals inside it run out, pressure builds inside the battery’s metal casing, and eventually, it cracks. The
metals left inside then ooze out. The ooze in your ruined flashlight is toxic, and so is the ooze that will
inevitably leak from every battery in a landfill. All batteries eventually rupture; it just takes rechargeable
batteries longer to end up in the landfill.
In addition to dry cell batteries, there are also wet cell ones used in automobiles, boats, and motorcycles. The
good thing about those is, ninety percent of them are recycled. Unfortunately, we do not yet know how to
recycle batteries like me or care to dispose of single-use ones properly.
But that is not half of it. For those of you excited about electric cars and a green revolution, I want you to take a
closer look at batteries and also windmills and solar panels. These three technologies share what we call
environmentally destructive embedded costs.”
NM got redder as he spoke. “Everything manufactured has two costs associated with it, embedded costs and
operating costs. I will explain embedded costs using a can of baked beans as my subject.
In this scenario, baked beans are on sale, so you jump in your car and head for the grocery store. Sure
enough, there they are on the shelf for $1.75 a can. As you head to the checkout, you begin to think about the
embedded costs in the can of beans.
The first cost is the diesel fuel the farmer used to plow the field, till the ground, harvest the beans, and
transport them to the food processor. Not only is his diesel fuel an embedded cost, so are the costs to build the
tractors, combines, and trucks. In addition, the farmer might use a nitrogen fertilizer made from natural gas.
Next is the energy costs of cooking the beans, heating the building, transporting the workers, and paying for
the vast amounts of electricity used to run the plant. The steel can holding the beans is also an embedded cost
Making the steel can requires mining taconite, shipping it by boat, extracting the iron, placing it in a
coal-fired blast furnace, and adding carbon Then it’s back on another truck to take the beans to the grocery
store. Finally, add in the cost of the gasoline for your car.
But wait - can you guess one of the highest but rarely acknowledged embedded costs?” NM said, then gave
us about thirty seconds to make our guesses. Then he flashed his lights and said, “It’s the depreciation on the
5000 pound car you used to transport one pound of canned beans!”
NM took on a golden glow, and I thought he might have winked. He said, “But that can of beans is nothing
compared to me! I am hundreds of times more complicated. My embedded costs not only come in the form of
energy use; they come as environmental destruction, pollution, disease, child labor, and the inability to be
recycled.”
He paused, “I weigh one thousand pounds, and as you see, I am about the size of a travel trunk.” NM’s lights
showed he was serious. “I contain twenty-five pounds of lithium, sixty pounds of nickel, 44 pounds of
manganese, 30 pounds cobalt, 200 pounds of copper, and 400 pounds of aluminum, steel, and plastic. Inside
me are 6,831 individual lithium-ion cells.
It should concern you that all those toxic components come from mining. For instance, to manufacture each
auto battery like me, you must process 25,000 pounds of brine for the lithium, 30,000 pounds of ore for the
cobalt, 5,000 pounds of ore for the nickel, and 25,000 pounds of ore for copper. All told, you dig up 500,000
pounds of the earth’s crust for just - one - battery.
He let that one sink in, then added, “I mentioned disease and child labor a moment ago. Here’s why.
Sixty-eight percent of the world’s cobalt, a significant part of a battery, comes from the Congo. Their mines
have no pollution controls and they employ children who die from handling this toxic material. Should we
factor in these diseased kids as part of the cost of driving an electric car?”
NM’s red and orange light made it look like he was on fire. “Finally,” he said, “I’d like to leave you with
these thoughts. California is building the largest battery in the world near San Francisco, and they intend to
power it from solar panels and windmills. They claim this is the ultimate in being ‘green,’ but it is not! This
construction project is creating an environmental disaster. Let me tell you why.
The main problem with solar arrays is the chemicals needed to process silicate into the silicon used in the
panels. To make pure enough silicon requires processing it with hydrochloric acid, sulfuric acid, nitric acid,
hydrogen fluoride, trichloroethane, and acetone. In addition, they also need gallium, arsenide,
copper-indium-gallium- diselenide, and cadmium-telluride, which also are highly toxic. Silicon dust is a
hazard to the workers, and the panels cannot be recycled.
Windmills are the ultimate in embedded costs and environmental destruction. Each weighs 1688 tons (the
equivalent of 23 houses) and contains 1300 tons of concrete, 295 tons of steel, 48 tons of iron, 24 tons of
fiberglass, and the hard to extract rare earths neodymium, praseodymium, and dysprosium. Each blade
weighs 81,000 pounds and will last 15 to 20 years, at which time it must be replaced. We cannot recycle used
blades. Sadly, both solar arrays and windmills kill birds, bats, sea life, and migratory insects.
NM lights dimmed, and he quietly said, “There may be a place for these technologies, but you must look
beyond the myth of zero emissions. I predict EVs and windmills will be abandoned once the embedded
environmental costs of making and replacing them become apparent. I’m trying to do my part with these
lectures.
Thank you for your attention, good night, and good luck.” NM’s lights went out, and he was quiet, like a
regular battery.

[RANDLOVER]

A mate sent me this. An interesting read:

The Shocking Naked Truth—By Bruce Haedrich.............

It is already on here at post No. 25. It is interesting, but a lot of people would be shocked at the embedded energy, water etc, in everyday items like 2700Litres to make a t-shirt The Impact of a Cotton T-Shirt | Stories | WWF (worldwildlife.org) (https://www.worldwildlife.org/stories/the-impact-of-a-cotton-t-shirt#:~:text=One%20key%20ingredient%20that%20does n,water%E2%80%9D%20we%20consume%20every%20day.)

or food items from the Guardian/IME How much water is needed to produce food and how much do we waste? | News | theguardian.com (https://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2013/jan/10/how-much-water-food-production-waste)


Data summary
Typical values for the volume of water required to produce common foodstuffs
Click heading to sort table. Download this data


Foodstuff-Quantity-Water consumption, litres
Source: IME


Chocolate 1 kg 17,196
Beef 1 kg 15,415
Sheep Meat 1 kg 10,412
Pork 1 kg 5,988
Butter 1 kg 5,553
Chicken meat 1 kg 4,325
Cheese 1 kg 3,178
Olives 1 kg 3,025
Rice 1 kg 2,497
Cotton 1 @ 250g 2,495
Pasta (dry) 1 kg 1,849
Bread 1 kg 1,608
Pizza 1 unit 1,239
Apple 1 kg 822
Banana 1 kg 790
Potatoes 1 kg 287
Milk 1 x 250ml glass 255
Cabbage 1 kg 237
Tomato 1 kg 214
Egg 1 196
Wine 1 x 250ml glass 109
Beer 1 x 250ml glass 74
Tea 1 x 250 ml cup 2
Data summary
Typical values for the volume of water required to produce common foodstuffsClick heading to sort table. Download this data (https://www.theguardian.com/news/datablog/2013/jan/10/how-much-water-food-production-waste#data)

Foodstuff

Quantity

Water consumption, litres



Source: IME





Chocolate
1 kg
17,196


Beef
1 kg
15,415


Sheep Meat
1 kg
10,412


Pork
1 kg
5,988


Butter
1 kg
5,553


Chicken meat
1 kg
4,325


Cheese
1 kg
3,178


Olives
1 kg
3,025


Rice
1 kg
2,497


Cotton
1 @ 250g
2,495


Pasta (dry)
1 kg
1,849


Bread
1 kg
1,608


Pizza
1 unit
1,239


Apple
1 kg
822


Banana
1 kg
790


Potatoes
1 kg
287


Milk
1 x 250ml glass
255


Cabbage
1 kg
237


Tomato
1 kg
214


Egg
1
196


Wine
1 x 250ml glass
109


Beer
1 x 250ml glass
74


Tea
1 x 250 ml cup
2

[chuck]

Does any one know where you can go to get actual facts around this stuff.

It seems there are opposing sides and values are quoted accordingly

For example i grow apples & tomatoes at home and they certainly don't required the amounts of water quoted & i find it hard to believe 500,000lbs of dirt have to be dug up to get the ingredients for 1 battery.

Cheers

[Homestar]

500,000 pounds is around 226 tonnes - 1 mining truck - I would have thought it would be more than this but don’t know.

[RANDLOVER]

Does any one know where you can go to get actual facts around this stuff.

It seems there are opposing sides and values are quoted accordingly

For example i grow apples & tomatoes at home and they certainly don't required the amounts of water quoted & i find it hard to believe 500,000lbs of dirt have to be dug up to get the ingredients for 1 battery.

Cheers

Yes some of the table I posted is hard to believe, it was by the UK's Institute Of Mechanical Engineers, perhaps an agronomist might know more about food production inputs, but after that there is processing, so might not have the complete picture either.