Help Needed - Chronic Brake Shudder

[DiscoFan]

Hi everyone, need some help to diagnose an ongoing brake shudder in my 2014 D4.

Car has now done 160,000km and for the last 40 odd thousand km, I've been going through rotors like there's no tomorrow. I think i'm now up to 4 sets (plus a machining) in that period.
Each time the rotors are replaced, I get around 2-4 weeks of vibration free diving before it starts coming back again. And it progressively gets worse. I mean really harsh vibrations through the steering wheel and pedal. This has typically been braking between 70-60km/h although more recently it's now more around 60-50km/h.

I've had the car in at LR specialists on the Mornington Peninsula and no-one has been able to sort it for me.

History...

- Lower control arms replaced about 30,000km ago
- Multiple sets of rotors
- Pads changed 5,000km ago
- Alignment 5,000km ago
- New tyres 2 weeks ago
- Calliper pins changed recently
- Front end inspection completed recently

Most recently, I've had the current set of rotors machined (literally only 5,000km old) and it's not really made any difference so there's something else going on.

Ideas would be super helpful. Bear in mind I'm not super mechanical.

Cheers, Sam.

[DieselLSE]

Seems to me that there is something permanently wrong with the drive train that is exacerbated under braking. That is, the forces applied by the brakes is showing up the problem, not causing it. I'd be looking at steering linkages, wheel bearings, front prop shaft, front axles and then front diff. I think at this stage I'd be getting the car onto a rolling road and seeing what shows up.

[ytt105]

I own a 2010 D4 and when I got it, 3 years ago, it had a front brake wobble that felt exactly like warped disks. However, I noticed they had only been replaced with factory rotors some 10k kms ago.

So I did a bit of research and found some suggestions that it could be pad build up on the rotors that cause the vibration. Apparently it is quite prevalent on the D4 because of the big brakes that it has means you only need to use them lightly in most instances.

The fix for this is to stand on the brakes heavily from 100kph at least half a dozen times in succession.

I did this and the problem has gone.

I now tow a block of flats often and the problem has never re occurred.

Try it. Its cheap!

Regards
Trevor

[DiscoFan]

Seems to me that there is something permanently wrong with the drive train that is exacerbated under braking. That is, the forces applied by the brakes is showing up the problem, not causing it. I'd be looking at steering linkages, wheel bearings, front prop shaft, front axles and then front diff. I think at this stage I'd be getting the car onto a rolling road and seeing what shows up.

Thanks a lot. Wheel bearings are all good. I'll suggest the other checks too to see what's already been looked at. Sounds expensive [bighmmm].

[DiscoFan]

I own a 2010 D4 and when I got it, 3 years ago, it had a front brake wobble that felt exactly like warped disks. However, I noticed they had only been replaced with factory rotors some 10k kms ago.

So I did a bit of research and found some suggestions that it could be pad build up on the rotors that cause the vibration. Apparently it is quite prevalent on the D4 because of the big brakes that it has means you only need to use them lightly in most instances.

The fix for this is to stand on the brakes heavily from 100kph at least half a dozen times in succession.

I did this and the problem has gone.

I now tow a block of flats often and the problem has never re occurred.

Try it. Its cheap!

Regards
Trevor

Thanks Trevor. Both me and the 2 mechanics have tried this one unfortunately.

[BradC]

Probably not your issue, but I had an issue on another car a few years ago which had the same symptoms. It turned out to be a stuck right front caliper piston. The car was only braking on 3 calipers. No pull, no other signs anything was wrong, but as it concentrated all the braking force on the drivers side front it flogged out bushes at a prodigious rate. Due to the suspension geometry, worn bushes caused a terrible shudder that felt exactly like a warped disk. I probably re-built it 3 times before I figured out what was wrong. I did the discs, pads pins and then multiple sets of bushes.

It wasn't trashing discs however.

[libertyts]

You say you've had to keep replacing rotors. Have they all been stuffed or just one or two of them? It would be extremely unlikely that all are going at the same time and at the same rate.

Are you inspecting and replacing them yourself or is this all through your mechanic?

I realise some things on these vehicles can be difficult to diagnose, but this has been going on a long time and I'd personally be considering another mechanic at this point. You've put a lot of money in with this guy and gotten no result other than a lightened wallet.

Good luck mate. I feel your pain, my poor D4 is unhappy at the moment too.

[DiscoFan]

You say you've had to keep replacing rotors. Have they all been stuffed or just one or two of them? It would be extremely unlikely that all are going at the same time and at the same rate.

Are you inspecting and replacing them yourself or is this all through your mechanic?

I realise some things on these vehicles can be difficult to diagnose, but this has been going on a long time and I'd personally be considering another mechanic at this point. You've put a lot of money in with this guy and gotten no result other than a lightened wallet.

Good luck mate. I feel your pain, my poor D4 is unhappy at the moment too.

Front rotors only have been replaced. Going on mechanics word that they were warped (or at least one was). Won't name them but they have a good reputation on here I believe. More recently I've tried another LR specialist mechanic and he machined the current set of rotors, with only one of the fronts needing much work. At the same time they did an alignment (way out), and supposedly checked over the front end without anything obviously wrong. New pads too. He suspects it's not rotors but something else causing the (now lower speed), pretty violent shuddering. Suggesting removing bushes, front shaft, steering etc. I really don't want to be putting $1000s into it at this point though.

It's very frustrating because I love the car. If I can't get it sorted though, I'll need to move it on. Don't want to sell it privately with this issue though as that would be pretty low on the next owner.

[libertyts]

Mate, to me it sounds like a caliper piston getting stuck. Very much like what my missus Wrangler did to us, would chew through brake pads and subsequently rotors faster than fuel.

There could be more than one issue causing the resulting symptoms though. So there may also be issues in suspension components. The suggestion of bushes isn't a bad one. You said front lower control arm bushes have been done. Though it's not as obvious and not talked about as often, upper control arm bushes do wear out too. There are plenty in there though. If a lot of them are perished then that can certainly result in shaking which in some circumstances can be present during braking (not suggesting control arms, just a point of discussion).

A decent, in-depth inspection of the front suspension components, armed with some pry bars should turn up some of them though. Not all bush failures are obvious though unfortunately, especially without weight on the vehicle.

Have the mechanics had a good look over the front calipers? It might be worth going to a brake specialist and getting them to have a look. There isn't anything terribly special about the brakes in a D4.

Sorry I don't have a good solution for you. It's a bugger of a thing when vehicles get like this.

Good luck mate

[josh.huber]

Get them to check rear control arms. All of them

[wvollbon]

Hi there, are you also going through brake pads?
I recently had a situation where my front brakes were dragging/staying on. The rotors got cooked, pads stuffed and also took out the front wheel bearings.
Ended up replacing the brake booster.
Only mention this as your brake rotors may be warping due to excessive heat from dragging front brakes.
My brakes may be different given the year difference and yours may be a 3.0 with larger brakes.
MY11 2010 D4 2.7

[gandalf]

I had the same repeated problem with wheel shudder under brakes
The rotors and pads replaced twice but after a short period afterwards
the shake returned, the rotors had minimal runout.
And so as a last resort I replaced the callipers and no more shudder
The callipers I believe were just sticky and I could have just put a calliper service kit in, but easier to just replace them.
Hope that helps

[coolum]

Reading through the thread I wonder if you have had new Disk pads during this process.

I had a similar thing happen on a sports car some years ago. Went through a few machining of rotors etc and then new rotors and as the pads were 'new' they weren't replacing them just using them again.
they turned out to be the problem and when I chucked them - had the new rotors machined and it all went away.

the 'new' rotors were a known brand but were also rubbish it would seem.

just a long shot but can often be overlooked by the experts.

[Tote]

I have the same problem on my RRS with new pads and rotors fitted. I'd suggest a new set of pads of a different flavour. I did have similar issues with my Falcon ute which were eventually traced to a sitcky caliper slide after replacing several sets of pads and rotors. Modern pads seem to have a problem with pad material build up on the rotors leading to shudder but the causes can be many, ranging from a sticky caliper causing the pads to overheat and deposit material on the rotors to the actual pad design itself being inappropriate for the use of the vehicle.

Regards,
Tote

[PeterJ]

Hi DiscoFan, I feel your pain, I will be reading this thread with interest. My original pads/rotors lasted 120,000km, when I did the change I decided to "upgrade", bought some Delios slotted rotors and Delphi pads. I confess I did not delve any deeper into the brakes (calipers/pins/run-out check) because they had been excellent, not a trace of shudder (judder) but the new combination started shuddering after 2000km or so. Not being one for coincidence I immediately suspected the rotors and since I was pressed for time before our trip west I had the originals machined and threw in a new set of Bendix pads, same result. I checked the caliper pins and they were fine and (unfortunately for adding something positive and constructive to this thread) I have not yet been able to allocate the time to investigate further other than having the Delios rotors machined as well ready to start the investigation. I asked the brake service to measure run-out before machining and they said 0.008" (or 0.2mm which is my language[smilebigeye])

So, I have some work to do, good luck with your search.

Peter

[DiscoJeffster]

So it’s a misnomer that the discs warp. Much of the time it’s a bad pad/disc combo that causes poor pad distribution on the disc. There is a microscopic pad deposit that ends up on the disc. You can get build ups which aligns with the thickness difference between the vented flute and the solid sections. This tends to be the judder that’s felt. There are a lot of reasons for this, but it can be as simple as the pad compound being too hard or soft for the vehicle causing uneven buildup.

The fix? Sometime a damn hard stop or two from 100kph will clear up the disc and it be good for a while. Generally a better pad/disc combo.

The above ignores the other reasons for shudder which is the suspension having movement from worn bushes or steering components, which on an LR is more common than bad pads/discs. The lower control arm is notorious for allowing flex and thus judder when braking forces are applied.

Stuck pistons/caliper pins would be the least common, but no uncommon.