Smokey TD5 possible valve problem?

[Designosaur]

Good evening all,

I wonder if I can ask some TD5 questions.

Long story but I have a D2 TD5 that has been off the road for years. Problems started with a collapsed hydraulic lash adjuster and a bent valve. I put it away and come back to it now and then. I put a new valve in and then there were other problems, put it away came back to it etc. Anyway sorted them and it was running sort of OK and I have been getting it ready to re-register. I did the ball joints and the TC output seal and handbrake shoes.

Almost there with the roadworthy items and the TD5 decides to get all smokey on me. Much more smokey than I like. I think that the extra smoke coincided with the injector seals failing to seal (again). Things I had done prior to this, swapped out the turbo with one that I got from a member here that was supposed to be good, I have put the old one back on because there was more oil inside than felt safe so probably the seals are gone. I currently have the intercooler out to clean it but it wasn't very dirty so the smoke isn't from the turbo sucking oil through at least.

So my next thought for where to look for a problem is with my replacement valve. If this is a problem either from the valve not seating well enough or from damage to the stem area when the valve bent, I will get a smokey motor?

To test this do I need to do a compression test through the glow plug? If number 2 is low and the others are OK it would point that way is that correct?

What else should I be looking for? Could the rings be all gummed up from non use? Although, it was much less smokey when I started on this round of getting the Disco going (this round started last Christmas when I did the ball joints, one cant rush these things). As above I had replaced the injector seals on a previous round of wanting to get it going and it has only done a couple of Km around the paddock since then but now the fuel system needs to be primed when it has not run for a little while. So there may be some other head problem. I think I need to take the head off again.

All thoughts are welcome

Thanks
Bernie

[shack]

You could get a Smokey motor from a poorly sealing valve, you should also get a rough idle, in fact rough throughout the rev range.

Is it doing that?

How long have you run it?

Make sure there is no blockage/sealing cap on the turbo oil return line, I've seen that before.

It shouldn't be from the motor sitting.

Cheers
James


Edit... When I said run rough, a small "miss" is probably what would have described it better.

If it's one cylinder that's not carrying it's own weight, a nanocom or Hawkeye should show which cylinder balance is out of whack.

[Tins]

Y

It shouldn't be from the motor sitting.

Cheers
James




Agreed. Mine sat for around five years, more or less. 320.000 and no smoke.

[Tins]

My question is, what colour smoke?

Like shack says, if a valve is not seating the thing would miss. As for the valve guide and stem seal, I would imagine you would have noticed any damage serious enough to cause your issue.

Is your car a D2 or D2a? The FPR is different on each. Check for leaks there. Obviously I'm talking about the need for priming here.

[Designosaur]

You could get a Smokey motor from a poorly sealing valve, you should also get a rough idle, in fact rough throughout the rev range.

Is it doing that?

How long have you run it?

Make sure there is no blockage/sealing cap on the turbo oil return line, I've seen that before.

It shouldn't be from the motor sitting.

Cheers
James


Edit... When I said run rough, a small "miss" is probably what would have described it better.

If it's one cylinder that's not carrying it's own weight, a nanocom or Hawkeye should show which cylinder balance is out of whack.

Hmm good thoughts, turbo return line looked fine, I swapped turbos twice. I have a problem with the touch screen on my nanocom not responding but I will try to get it to work enough to get to the cylinder balances. It is not missing, sounds OK, well apart from a squeek from the front of the engine. Something on the drive belt because it goes away when the belt is taken off but that is another rabbit to chase.

Thanks

[Designosaur]

My question is, what colour smoke?

Like shack says, if a valve is not seating the thing would miss. As for the valve guide and stem seal, I would imagine you would have noticed any damage serious enough to cause your issue.

Is your car a D2 or D2a? The FPR is different on each. Check for leaks there. Obviously I'm talking about the need for priming here.

Well it is smoke colour, not black like when an overboosted TD gets the boot put in on an uphill. I will try to get a video on the weekend once I have put the intercooler back in.

It is a D2 99 10P motor I have not seen a leak from the FPR but I will recheck that.

I am thinking to check the injector seals again because I found a fairly recent thread here which had that problem and a smokey motor. Mine got more smokey when the need for priming came back. This has me thinking. This thread Smoky TD5 esp idling (https://www.aulro.com/afvb/discovery-2-a/287318-smoky-td5-esp-idling.html)

Thanks for the thoughts!

[Designosaur]

Agreed. Mine sat for around five years, more or less. 320.000 and no smoke.

Is this a competition? HAHA I found my original thread when this saga began and it is October 2015!

I have been doing this on off dance with my disco ever since. Can you spot someone who has too many projects and not enough time?

[Tins]

Is this a competition?

NO. there are many threads and references on here to the travails of my Disco. I don't expect you to look for it, but you might pay attention.

I'm going to stick to diesel here.Smoke nay be black, which is usually an overfuel situation. Smoke may be blue, which is usually engine oil consumption. Or, smoke may be white, which has a number of reasons.

Seriously, if you want help you need to answer questions in the spirit in which they were asked.

As for this

I have been doing this on off dance with my disco ever since. Can you spot someone who has too many projects and not enough time?
Haven't we all. That's why we are here.

I will add, it is easy to get misconstrued here. Don't mean we ain't friends... Hardest lesson I EVER learnt on this place.

[Graeme]

If white smoke then I would check the tension on the injector clamp bolts. Had I known at the time, that smokey TD5 esp while idling problem could have been resolved simply by retorquing those bolts.

The squeak from the front could be a cracked harmonic balancer, where the 3 bolts hold the balancer to the pulley but also the bearing in the belt tensioner.

[Designosaur]

NO. there are many threads and references on here to the travails of my Disco. I don't expect you to look for it, but you might pay attention.

I'm going to stick to diesel here.Smoke nay be black, which is usually an overfuel situation. Smoke may be blue, which is usually engine oil consumption. Or, smoke may be white, which has a number of reasons.

Seriously, if you want help you need to answer questions in the spirit in which they were asked.



Hi Tins,

I think that my HAHA was not obvious enough! I was just laughing that I was not the only one who had a Disco sitting around for this long. This was a non serious answer which was why I put it separate.

Thanks for the input on my question it is most appreciated.

I would have to rate the smoke colour more towards white, definitely not black and I don't think it's blue.

[Designosaur]

If white smoke then I would check the tension on the injector clamp bolts. Had I known at the time, that smokey TD5 esp while idling problem could have been resolved simply by retorquing those bolts.

The squeak from the front could be a cracked harmonic balancer, where the 3 bolts hold the balancer to the pulley but also the bearing in the belt tensioner.

I will check injector clamps this afternoon!

I am hopeful that it is not the harmonic balancer because I dont have a 480nm torque wrench but am aware that it might be, this disco likes to challenge me. I am going to look at the tensioner next although the pulley there feels smooth.

Thanks

[Tins]

Hi Tins,

I think that my HAHA was not obvious enough! I was just laughing that I was not the only one who had a Disco sitting around for this long. This was a non serious answer which was why I put it separate.

Thanks for the input on my question it is most appreciated.

I would have to rate the smoke colour more towards white, definitely not black and I don't think it's blue.

Fair enough. Maybe I was a bit tetchy. Long day.

And yeah, white smoke is usually, on a TD5, fuel. Not many things burn white. Brake fluid and ATF will, but they're not relevant here.

[shack]

If the smoke is white on a diesel it's usually injector timing - check the cam timing.

Or injector pressure - check your bump clearance.

[Graeme]

I am hopeful that it is not the harmonic balancer because I dont have a 480nm torque wrenchI was referring to the section that bolts to the pulley itself with 3 bolts. I ran one of my TD5 D2s for most of its time with me with the balancer removed.

[Designosaur]

Small update, injector clamps were bolted down to spec. I am going to pull the injectors and have a look at the seals and orings on the weekend and then redo the injector clearances.

Stay tuned.

[Tins]

Small update, injector clamps were bolted down to spec. I am going to pull the injectors and have a look at the seals and orings on the weekend and then redo the injector clearances.

Stay tuned.

I reckon shack is probably right. You've had the head off. Check the cam timing. He seems to know his stuff.

[shack]

I was in a hurry....I should clarify my post slightly, cam timing being out won't actually change SOI on a TD5, it will obviously have incorrect valve timing, and incorrect injector pressure which will affect fuel delivery and quite likely atomisation (depending on which way the cam was out), which will in turn cause poor combustion.

It's most likely one of the 2 things I mentioned, if not exactly as I mentioned!

[Designosaur]

I was in a hurry....I should clarify my post slightly, cam timing being out won't actually change SOI on a TD5, it will obviously have incorrect valve timing, and incorrect injector pressure which will affect fuel delivery and quite likely atomisation (depending on which way the cam was out), which will in turn cause poor combustion.

It's most likely one of the 2 things I mentioned, if not exactly as I mentioned!

HI Shack, so to clarify checking cam timing, I need to make sure that the two coloured chain links line up with the mark on the sprocket and the slot on the cam lines up like in the manual pic?

175406

Thanks

[shack]

HI Shack, so to clarify checking cam timing, I need to make sure that the two coloured chain links line up with the mark on the sprocket and the slot on the cam lines up like in the manual pic?

175406

ThanksThere is a slot in the cam that takes a locating pin, and a hole in the flywheel that also does, if both of those line up you should be in business.

I think we made a threaded Bush that screws into the threaded hole in the bellhousing, then you can simply slide the correct size locating pin in through it into the flywheel.

I can't remember the sizes for the pins sorry.

[johnp38]

Flywheel Camshaft Timing Locking Pin Set suitable for Td5 Defender Discovery 2 5018341040529 | eBay (https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/274887036717?epid=10016802964&hash=item40008b4f2d:g:2cgAAOSwuS1hBgF6)

[Designosaur]

Hi all, just updating this with the weekends progress. So I checked timing, this was all spot on. Cam slot, timing chain links and the slot in the fly wheel all lined up. Next I reset the bump clearances on the injectors. Still smokey but it might be a bit better.

While I was underneath to check the flywheel timing slot, I noticed that the fuel pressure regulator was indeed leaking so this could indeed be the cause of the need for priming as Tins suggested. Has anyone had success with just replacing the pressure regulator part rather than the whole assembly? Like this one Land Rover Discovery TD5 Fuel Pressure Regulator Repair Kit BOSCH+W/Shop Manual | eBay (https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/203041817565)

I had another thought, would crap old fuel give me a smoke problem? The fuel has been in there for quite a few years now. I might drain that and refill next step.

[shack]

I guess any lack of integrity could cause the fuel system to need re priming all the time, not seen it where the fpr was causing it though tbh.

Old fuel? Again it could be, not seen it myself.

Have you actually got the engine up to operating temperature since you got back into fixing it?

[Tins]

Hi all, just updating this with the weekends progress. So I checked timing, this was all spot on. Cam slot, timing chain links and the slot in the fly wheel all lined up. Next I reset the bump clearances on the injectors. Still smokey but it might be a bit better.

While I was underneath to check the flywheel timing slot, I noticed that the fuel pressure regulator was indeed leaking so this could indeed be the cause of the need for priming as Tins suggested. Has anyone had success with just replacing the pressure regulator part rather than the whole assembly? Like this one Land Rover Discovery TD5 Fuel Pressure Regulator Repair Kit BOSCH+W/Shop Manual | eBay (https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/203041817565)

I had another thought, would crap old fuel give me a smoke problem? The fuel has been in there for quite a few years now. I might drain that and refill next step.

As already mentioned, mine sat for years. Fuel in it was fine, car started instantly. ( not true, it started instantly AFTER I repaired the CPS wiring I had pinched in the bell housing when fitting the trans ), but a prime sequence ( fuel pump had been out ) car fired. Still does. Main issue with old fuel is the "algae" that builds up with moisture which can block things.

Left field, but did you put the injectors back the way that came out, that is #1 back to #1 position etc? IIRC they are location specific to the ECU.

[Designosaur]

I guess any lack of integrity could cause the fuel system to need re priming all the time, not seen it where the fpr was causing it though tbh.

Old fuel? Again it could be, not seen it myself.

Have you actually got the engine up to operating temperature since you got back into fixing it?

I got it up to about 70 yesterday, my nanocom has a problem with the touch screen and I didnt want to ship it back to Cyprus with all the shipping problems that were happening with covid. I will have to send it back. I can get to the first screen of each category but the bottom of the screen where you hit the scroll button doesnt work. I could only get to the first screen with temp and rpm etc. I couldn't get to injector balance. But no I have not taken it for a good run. I can drive it round the paddock a bit to get it a bit hotter if you think that will help.

Cheers

[Designosaur]

As already mentioned, mine sat for years. Fuel in it was fine, car started instantly. ( not true, it started instantly AFTER I repaired the CPS wiring I had pinched in the bell housing when fitting the trans ), but a prime sequence ( fuel pump had been out ) car fired. Still does. Main issue with old fuel is the "algae" that builds up with moisture which can block things.

Left field, but did you put the injectors back the way that came out, that is #1 back to #1 position etc? IIRC they are location specific to the ECU.

Hi Tins, yes I was very careful with the injectors when I did the seals so I'm confident that they will be in the correct locations, and yes they are set for a location in the ECU. I changed the fuel filter a while ago and I put some fuel treatment in the other day in case of algae. I will get a new filter because hopefully it has filtered any crap.

When I did the injector seals it was not smoking like this. It then had a clutch problem and went back in the shed for a while. I finally found the clutch problem a couple of months ago (pin hole where the clutch line goes around the back of the engine) and started work on it again. I did the ball joints and then it did something to become smokey. I think it was at about the time that it started to need priming when it had not been started during the week but this has stretched out so long I dont remember very well.

Cheers
B

[Tins]

I got it up to about 70 yesterday, my nanocom has a problem with the touch screen and I didnt want to ship it back to Cyprus with all the shipping problems that were happening with covid. I will have to send it back. I can get to the first screen of each category but the bottom of the screen where you hit the scroll button doesnt work. I could only get to the first screen with temp and rpm etc. I couldn't get to injector balance. But no I have not taken it for a good run. I can drive it round the paddock a bit to get it a bit hotter if you think that will help.

Cheers

Not trying to teach you to suck eggs, but did you try using some form of stylus on the Nanocom? I'm on my second one, and it hasn't changed for me, it often will not accept my finger input.

[Designosaur]

Not trying to teach you to suck eggs, but did you try using some form of stylus on the Nanocom? I'm on my second one, and it hasn't changed for me, it often will not accept my finger input.

yep, tried that, no joy unfortunately.

[sharmy]

Those Bosch fpr repair kits are fine, just remember to access the bottom bolt through the wheel arch with a long socket extension, it makes the process a lot easier. Also do not overtighten, its easy to strip the thread.