Steering relay! IIA

[JRT]

Hi Guys,

I'm working through bits on 'Vera' my 1964 Series IIA 88" and the steering has always been typically heavy, so I've rebuilt both swivels ( they were leaking anyway) and the steering still seems very heavy. So I thought I would isolate the steering relay to see how that felt. I popped off the ball joints on top and lower arms, and then had a feel.

Blimey - two hands hanging off the bottom arm would just about move it, really really stiff [bigsad]!
So I removed a bolt at the top of the relay and drain bolt at bottom to see what the oil looked like, and a small amount of water came out first then very dirty rusty looking oil ! I tried flushing it through and refilling but no improvement. So I thought it needs a rebuild really or replacement.
It is seized solid in chassis even after loads of plus gas (penetrating fluid). So I dismantled in situ and if you go careful it's not too bad, the spring and parts was captured in heavy material.

I was lucky enough to get hold of the Spring compression tool a while ago ready for this job so hopefully rebuild should go okay. Trouble is its still stuck in the chassis. So I looked at all the other posts and there isn't an easy answer to removal, so I through I'd try a different tact.

After removing the plate (217694) at the bottom, I could see the body of the relay and chassis aperture. What I couldn't see as any of the plus gas reaching the bottom of the relay from the top. So I thought how big is the gap between the relay body (knowing it's the bottom portion that ends to seize in) and chassis and can I get anything between the two. An old hacksaw blade ground down slightly to reduce its thickness fits. So I've been working the hacksaw blade up from the bottom and to start with it went in a few thou but with perseverance I have now managed to work the blade right up the side of the relay body to the top. This released a pool of penetrating fluid stuck at the top. My aim is to continue this and eventually work the blade right around the relay or as far as poss and see if this releases the frozen relay body. It worth a go and I'll let you know how it goes, but thought it's a different attack method without major tools required, if it works of course!

Cheers

JRT

176422176423

[Tins]

Hi Guys,

I'm working through bits on 'Vera' my 1964 Series IIA 88" and the steering has always been typically heavy, so I've rebuilt both swivels ( they were leaking anyway) and the steering still seems very heavy. So I thought I would isolate the steering relay to see how that felt. I popped off the ball joints on top and lower arms, and then had a feel.

Blimey - two hands hanging off the bottom arm would just about move it, really really stiff [bigsad]!
So I removed a bolt at the top of the relay and drain bolt at bottom to see what the oil looked like, and a small amount of water came out first then very dirty rusty looking oil ! I tried flushing it through and refilling but no improvement. So I thought it needs a rebuild really or replacement.
It is seized solid in chassis even after loads of plus gas (penetrating fluid). So I dismantled in situ and if you go careful it's not too bad, the spring and parts was captured in heavy material.

I was lucky enough to get hold of the Spring compression tool a while ago ready for this job so hopefully rebuild should go okay. Trouble is its still stuck in the chassis. So I looked at all the other posts and there isn't an easy answer to removal, so I through I'd try a different tact.

After removing the plate (217694) at the bottom, I could see the body of the relay and chassis aperture. What I couldn't see as any of the plus gas reaching the bottom of the relay from the top. So I thought how big is the gap between the relay body (knowing it's the bottom portion that ends to seize in) and chassis and can I get anything between the two. An old hacksaw blade ground down slightly to reduce its thickness fits. So I've been working the hacksaw blade up from the bottom and to start with it went in a few thou but with perseverance I have now managed to work the blade right up the side of the relay body to the top. This released a pool of penetrating fluid stuck at the top. My aim is to continue this and eventually work the blade right around the relay or as far as poss and see if this releases the frozen relay body. It worth a go and I'll let you know how it goes, but thought it's a different attack method without major tools required, if it works of course!

Cheers

JRT

176422176423

Those things are a bugger. In my RAEME days we were told to replace them. Yes Sir!

Well, we would have a porta power and chains, the oxy torch to heat it all up, penetrene and it could still take more than a day. I like your thinking re the blade. Good luck, you will need it.

PS, plenty pf anti-seize when you put it back.......

[gromit]

I've been lucky'ish with all of mine, I've done at least 8.
A couple I had to work hard at with a range of packers either side and crowbars, I used stiff wire to pick out debris from the top. Plenty of WD40.
If you can get any movement then it will eventually lift out.

The brute force method can rip the tubular section out of the chassis. It is possible to repair in situ.

Walter the Dormobile (https://www.aulro.com/afvb/dormobile-and-carawagon-conversions/214323-walter-dormobile-post2393347.html#post2393347)

2a GS Refurb ARN 178-334 (https://www.aulro.com/afvb/leaf-sprung-military-land-rovers/125841-2a-gs-refurb-arn-178-334-a-post2854662.html#post2854662)

Buy seals from a bearing company, don't bother with those supplied by most LR parts suppliers, they don't last.

If the tapered section that runs in the Tufnol split bushes is pitted it should be OK but if the area where the seal sits on the shaft is pitted then you either need a replacement shaft, a speedy sleeve or access to a lathe. I've managed to machine the seal land down and it still seals OK (with quality seals).

Best of luck putting it back together.....


Colin

[JRT]

Thanks for the replies guys.

Well it's out [biggrin]

A bit more hard work with the hacksaw blade which I managed to get up and work around the sides of the relay about 2/3 of the circumference.

I don't think the blade would go all the way round as the relay appeared to be slightly off centre where the flange held it.

I thought time to try a good tap with the copper hammer and she moved.

A brass drift and a lump hammer and more plus gas from the top, and worked it out in a few minutes. Very happy. That's been in there since 1964 and the majority of its life spent in the North of Scotland.

Cheers

JRT

[Johnno1969]

Hats off to you. Good job. Well done!

[Tins]

The brute force method can rip the tubular section out of the chassis. It is possible to repair in situ.




Colin

Indeed. I was in a Base Workshop at the time and such things were of no moment, that is of course until things went wrong, when **** fell from great heights. Life as a "Craftsman" was so much fun back then.

Bur mostly we got them out. Bear in mind, the Army didn't have spare hacksaw blades to file down. [bigrolf]

[JRT]

Cheers Guys, what a relief to get it out.

It wasn't a quick technique but minimum of tools used and might help someone else in the future.

Just the the rebuild to do now and I'll let you know how that goes too, thanks for the advice and replies.


Cheers

JRT

[Tins]

Cheers Guys, what a relief to get it out.

It wasn't a quick technique but minimum of tools used and might help someone else in the future.

Just the the rebuild to do now and I'll let you know how that goes too, thanks for the advice and replies.


Cheers

JRT

LOTS of anti-sieze when you put it back in:thumbsup:

[gromit]

LOTS of anti-sieze when you put it back in:thumbsup:

I'm not sure whether anti-seize or grease helps, there's a large opening at the top so water & road dirt wash down the gap.
Grease or anti-seize collects & holds the dirt.
For some years it will help but I'm not sure after that......

I did wonder about sealing the top so water & dirt can't get down there but all of mine have come out after 40 plus years and they weren't greased when assembled.


Colin

[Tins]

I'm not sure whether anti-seize or grease helps, there's a large opening at the top so water & road dirt wash down the gap.
Grease or anti-seize collects & holds the dirt.
For some years it will help but I'm not sure after that......

I did wonder about sealing the top so water & dirt can't get down there but all of mine have come out after 40 plus years and they weren't greased when assembled.


Colin

45+ years since I did 'em so I'll bow to your experience here, Colin.

Although what LR did or didn't do at the factory is not necessarily a true indication of a thing's worth.......

[JRT]

I certainly want to make sure it isn't such a pain to remove next time, so as you guys have said anti seize grease definitely plays a part, and I think due to the design and placement a combination of the anti seize and a top of anti corrosion cavity wax can't do any harm.

There was zero lube in there before so rust and crap did take a hold, and I'll probably remove it again in the near future when I give the chassis a real good overhaul and repaint.

Thanks again.

JRT

[Lionelgee]

Hello All,

Geoffrey Croker at the 12:39 minute mark of a YouTube clip performs a radical redesign of a Series 3 steering relay to prevent future extraction issues. Accessed 22nd January 2022 from,
Land Rover Restoration Part 15 - Chassis Repairs 3/4 - Bushing & Relay Removal - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=16DzPFnzIg4&list=PLNR9e5gIAR0ep6TiEuqNJB_I1ohTZ4bg_&index=16)

Kind regards
Lionel

[JRT]

Thanks Lionel

Well worth a watch then, anything to improve things!

Cheers

JRT

[JohnboyLandy]

I've also heard that wrapping it in Petrolatum tape before re-installing is a good idea. I would have done this with mine if I know about the tape before I reinstalled my relay.

Cheers,
John

[JRT]

Thanks John
I’ll do a bit of research and see where I can source the tape in the UK. I’m wondering if it’s similar to something called ‘ denso’ tape we get here used to wrap metal pipes to stop corrosion 🤔

https://www.denso.net/products/denso-tape/

I’ve managed to put the relay back together,the spring was a bit awkward but the tool did work thank goodness 😅 felt a bit like having a UXB in the vice 😬

I’m just filling it up with EP90 overnight. Update to follow.

Cheers

JRT

[gromit]

I think you may be overthinking future relay removal.

A decent coat of paint on the relay and inside the tube in the chassis lasted 30-40 years. I haven't had any rusted in, it was just the buildup of dirt that slowed their extraction. I'm sure some rust in place because they've been parked in the open for years, most won't get treated like this if someone is going to the trouble of overhauling the relay.

Grease, anti-seize, grease tape etc will hold the dirt. I'm not sure whether this makes the situation better or worse.

When new it was probably used as a daily driver for many, many years in all weather so there was a lot of water & road dirt going down beside the relay. Most nowadays will be lightly used and mainly on dry days.

I went through this thinking process with one of my Land Rovers, do I grease, maybe silicon around the top to stop the water getting in, fit an O-ring around the body of the relay to stop dirt getting down too far ???
I then realised that if I do a good job of overhauling the relay and then maintain it there will probably be no need to remove it again in my lifetime.


By all means grease/anti-seize/tape but I'm not convinced it's needed.


Colin

[JohnboyLandy]

Thanks John
I’ll do a bit of research and see where I can source the tape in the UK. I’m wondering if it’s similar to something called ‘ denso’ tape we get here used to wrap metal pipes to stop corrosion 🤔

Denso Tape™ - Denso (https://www.denso.net/products/denso-tape/)

I’ve managed to put the relay back together,the spring was a bit awkward but the tool did work thank goodness 😅 felt a bit like having a UXB in the vice 😬

I’m just filling it up with EP90 overnight. Update to follow.

Cheers

JRT

Yeah, I think there is an equivalent Denso tape in their range.

Here's a link to the specific tape I referred to : GUARDIAN Petrolatum Tape HT (High Temp) 75mm x 10m roll | eBay (https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/302913829763)

Cheers,
John

[gromit]

Yeah, I think there is an equivalent Denso tape in their range.

Here's a link to the specific tape I referred to : GUARDIAN Petrolatum Tape HT (High Temp) 75mm x 10m roll | eBay (https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/302913829763)

Cheers,
John

The best use for this sort of tape is wrapping leaf springs.
Oil or grease the springs then wrap with grease tape. The outside surface gets covered in road dirt and stops being sticky but inside the leaf springs stay well lubricated.

You could buy leather gaiters for leaf springs on high end cars from Wefco. Looks like they are still available but at about 280GBP per spring they are a bit expensive.......
Welcome to Wefco Gaiters (http://www.wefco-gaiters.com/)


Colin

[JRT]

Hello Guys,

Well the relay proved a bit 'stiff' in a couple of areas whilst rotating the shaft after the rebuild.
I perserved and gently tapped the shaft up and down with a soft faced hammer and kept rotating the shaft whilst held in a vice, and in the end the relay turns smoothly throughout 360 degrees.
I cleaned the steering relay aperture out in the chassis and finished with emery cloth 150 grit and its pretty good. I decided to use a product called 'Owatrol' to paint/coat the aperture and then refitted the relay, with plenty of copper grease anti seize compoiund on the lower portion of the relay.

The brand Owatrol>Homepage>All our products (https://owatrol-international.com/en/all-our-products/7936-owatrol-oil.html)


I figured the first 58 years of the steering relays life were tougher than anything the future holds so hopefully the steps taken should be enough to make future removal manageable.
It was a job worth doing and the feel of the relay now compared with before and is so much better and smoother, it was really bad before.
Thanks for all the input and replies on this post.

Cheers

JRT

[mick88]

I've also heard that wrapping it in Petrolatum tape before re-installing is a good idea. I would have done this with mine if I know about the tape before I reinstalled my relay.

Cheers,
John

I have a 71 2A which the previous owner who purchased the vehicle new had wrapped the steering relay in a Denso Tape type
product shortly after purchasing the vehicle, as he was very aware of the issues regarding corrosion etc.
When I removed the steering relay in approximately 2015 it just lifted straight out once the bolts were removed.
Needless to say i wrapped it in tape again when i re-fitted it.

Cheers, Mick

[JDNSW]

The relay installation design unfortunately is a problem. The bottom of the relay is located with a full circle locating fitting, which while probably not watertight, certainly retards drainage. But the top is located by two plates on opposite sides welded to the top of the chassis, leaving a significant gap on the other two sides, allowing water and dust to fill the annulus between the relay and the tube.

It is easy to see how this design could have been improved, for example by some sort of a seal or baffle at the top - just a turned land on the relay with pressed ring similar to the one on the bottom welded or bolted in the top of the tube, for example. Even if this rusted together it would still be easy to free.

But let's face it - the original design, which was unchanged for nearly forty years, remained troublefree for the expected life of the vehicle (probably no more than 100,000miles/10 years).