Coal is on the way out. Don't tell the Government

[bob10]

Advanced green energy storage. Heard of it? You'll hear a lot more of it in the future. possibly the best thing to come out of the Glasgow conference was the Long Duration Energy Storage Council, the least known result of COP26. 24 hour dispatchable renewable power is the way of the future, and it starts at Broken Hill.




Advanced green energy storage is writing coal's death certificate (thenewdaily.com.au) (https://thenewdaily.com.au/life/science/environment/2022/01/24/energy-storage-killing-coal/?utm_source=Adestra&utm_medium=email&utm_campaign=Morning%20News%20-%2020220124)

[PhilipA]

Samual Clemens quote.

“I can understand perfectly how the report of my illness got about, I have even heard on good authority that I was dead. James Ross Clemens, a cousin of mine, was seriously ill two or three weeks ago in London, but is well now. The report of my illness grew out of his illness.
The report of my death was an exaggeration.”

Regards PhilipA

[gusthedog]

The first sentence had me in stiches
"Australia is sprinting towards 100 per cent renewable energy, 24/7, 365 days a year"

Have you seen our knuckle dragging, fossil fuel loving prime minister? He might be racing out of an Engadine Maccas, but there's no way he's supporting a sprint towards renewables.

EDIT - shoudlve read further before posting that [emoji1787]

[PhilipA]

I will try not to do as others do, but here is an article showing the real situation with coal usage throughout the World. IEA report produced after COP26.


Global Coal Consumption Reaches New Record High In 2021…China, India Consuming Two Thirds – Watts Up With That? (https://wattsupwiththat.com/2022/01/23/global-coal-consumption-reaches-new-record-high-in-2021china-india-consuming-two-thirds/)
So whatever tiny Australia does it will have no impact so why are we closing coal fired plants?

Regards PhilipA

[vnx205]

The information in that article might be true, but given the track record of that site there is a real possibility that the information should be verified by finding other more reliable sites.

According to this site
Watts Up with That - Media Bias/Fact Check (https://mediabiasfactcheck.com/watts-up-with-that/)

that site is not a reliable source of accurate information.

176524

[Homestar]

I will try not to do as others do, but here is an article showing the real situation with coal usage throughout the World. IEA report produced after COP26.


So whatever tiny Australia does it will have no impact so why are we closing coal fired plants?

Regards PhilipA

Someone has to start somewhere - if everyone has that approach then the worlds stuffed (if it isn’t already). While our efforts don’t mean much on the grand scheme of things, we certainly need to stand up and show the world it can be done IMO.

[PhilipA]

Someone has to start somewhere - if everyone has that approach then the worlds stuffed (if it isn’t already). While our efforts don’t mean much on the grand scheme of things, we certainly need to stand up and show the world it can be done IMO.


At what cost?? Billions for batteries?
Regards PhilipA

[gusthedog]

I will try not to do as others do, but here is an article showing the real situation with coal usage throughout the World. IEA report produced after COP26.


So whatever tiny Australia does it will have no impact so why are we closing coal fired plants?

Regards PhilipA But we supply massive amounts of coal for international power production in china and india. They're our emissions too. Without our coal it wouldn't happen.

And we need to move to renewables. And stop selling coal. Aussies are doing their part in killing the planet quite well. We also have amongst the highest emissions per Capita. Bit high and mighty of us to say others can't do the same.

[Arapiles]

I will try not to do as others do, but here is an article showing the real situation with coal usage throughout the World. IEA report produced after COP26.

So whatever tiny Australia does it will have no impact so why are we closing coal fired plants?

Regards PhilipA


This is the actual complete report:

https://iea.blob.core.windows.net/assets/f1d724d4-a753-4336-9f6e-64679fa23bbf/Coal2021.pdf

A couple of relevant quotes:

"Renewable energy and nuclear power generation are expected tomeet ~39% of the increase in electricity demand in 2021, whileresidual growth of more than 800 TWh will be covered by coal andgas."

"For 2022-2024, global power demand is expected to increase~2 099 TWh (annual average growth of 2.4%), of which a largeshare (91%) will be covered by additional renewable electricitygeneration. We expect a gap of more than 220 TWh to be filled bycoal- and gas-fired power generation. With
forward prices pointingto a gas price drop, we expect gas to meet most of the remainingdemand "

So, basically coal's just filling in the capacity gap for renewables. Get enough renewables on line in the right places and it won't be needed.

Also, the stories about China building hundreds of new coal plants are a furphy: most of those plants either haven't been built or haven't been commissioned.

[ramblingboy42]

all of Australia's coal powered power stations are dinosaurs....there isn't a new or even young one.

the maintenance costs are spiralling up wards as all the machinery is wearing out.....you would be surprised at the amount of machinery underneath the turbines and in the boiler stations just to keep the plant running

the owners/investors are becoming concerned about operational cost and profitability losses

that is why theyr'e shutting down , no none wants an unprofitable business when there are fresh billions being made in alternative power generation.

btw, no one wants to build a new coal fired power station in Australia again....offers were open....no takers

BHP has bailled out of coal , doesn't that ring alarm bells?

still plenty of coal for those who want it.

[PhilipA]

btw, no one wants to build a new coal fired power station in Australia again....offers were open....no takers
Clive Palmer has applied to build a coal fired plant at his mine in Queensland.
he gained approval from the local government but now the Qld government has stepped in and is "deliberating" and they have said "qld does not need anpother coal fieed station"
Why would they object if he is willing to use his own money?
This is planned to be a modern HELE station, and I know the engineer who designed it.
Regard sPhilipA
BTW this per capita emissions thing is a complete red herring. Australia has negative emissions of CO2 because of our large forest areas and relatively low population.

[drivesafe]

But we supply massive amounts of coal for international power production in china and india. They're our emissions too. Without our coal it wouldn't happen.

And we need to move to renewables. And stop selling coal. Aussies are doing their part in killing the planet quite well. We also have amongst the highest emissions per Capita. Bit high and mighty of us to say others can't do the same.
Sorry but that is total garbage.

If we stop selling them our coal, they will simply buy it somewhere else.

They pay MORE for our coal because it is the most efficient and ultimately, the CLEANEST coal on earth.

So yes lets stop selling our coal and make the worlds emissions worse.

That just does not make sense.

[drivesafe]

Someone has to start somewhere - if everyone has that approach then the worlds stuffed (if it isn’t already). While our efforts don’t mean much on the grand scheme of things, we certainly need to stand up and show the world it can be done IMO.
I have no issue with these EXPERIMENTS being carried out here in Australia, but why should my tax dollars go to subsidising these EXPERIMENTS especially as most of them require HUGE amounts of additional energy to supply the end users, thats you and me, with the same amount of energy a coal fired power station provides.

That mean we will most likely see at least a 50% increase in our power bills, just these gage-green lovers can feel good in themselves, but not real advantage for the country as a whole.

[W&KO]

I don’t think I’ll see the end of coal mining….maybe the next generation or two might.

While there is an abundance of coal available in Aus, sadly we cannot get the right type of coal for our operation which is create a maintenance headache burning what’s available.

[drivesafe]

all of Australia's coal powered power stations are dinosaurs....there isn't a new or even young one.

the maintenance costs are spiralling up wards as all the machinery is wearing out.....you would be surprised at the amount of machinery underneath the turbines and in the boiler stations just to keep the plant running

the owners/investors are becoming concerned about operational cost and profitability losses

that is why theyr'e shutting down , no none wants an unprofitable business when there are fresh billions being made in alternative power generation.

btw, no one wants to build a new coal fired power station in Australia again....offers were open....no takers

BHP has bailled out of coal , doesn't that ring alarm bells?

still plenty of coal for those who want it.

Not quite true.

The Chinese wanted to build two new low emission coal fired power stations in the Hunter Vally.

The government stopped them because they were Chinese, not because they were coal fired.

Wait till we have a major weather event, where scores of people die because the gage-green power supplies failed, and I mean here in Australia, and see how quick they go back to building coal and gas fired power stations.

[JDNSW]

Not quite right. If Australia ceased coal exports, this would, as suggested raise the world coal price, and the cost of generating power from coal. Which would speed the replacement of coal fired plants by renewable/nuclear/gas plants because generating it from coal just got more expensive.

Greenhouse gas emissions per head is a furphy; the climate is only affected by totals, so until you multiply emissions per head by population, the figure is meaningless. And most especially, if it is not coupled with population growth numbers. Australia has high per capita emissions, and one of the world's highest population growths among developed economies.

But in another sense, Australia's lack of action on reducing emissions is not a furphy. It is highly probable that failure to act will result in what are effectively sanctions on our exports to high value markets in Europe - which, ironically, would increase Australia's reliance on fossil fuel exports.

The problem for governments in ceasing coal exports though, is not so much the effects on coal mining areas, but the loss of direct income especially to NSW and Qld governments of royalty from the coal mined, and personal and company tax and GST from the economic activity involved. Coal mining in Australia is big business and big tax, which governments are very reluctant to interfere with, quite apart from the overall economic issues which would arise from ceasing coal exports.

While not Australia's largest export, coal is still a significant export, and if this ceased, it would exert downward pressure on the $A, resulting in economywide price increases for our mostly imported consumer goods, offset in part by benefits for exporters. It is not at all clear to me what the overall economic balance would be, although long term it would probably be beneficial to the country, even if not in dollar terms. Which, of course, is small comfort to those who lost their career or whose shareholding and retirement plans just got dashed.

[gusthedog]

I understand the pressure on economies of not selling our coal. But we're quickly moving to a point that worldwide economies are going to crash because of human induced climate change. I'd rather this generation suffer slightly with higher prices than future generations exist on a planet that quickly becomes unlivable.

And we're the 12th largest emitter per capita according to wikapedia. That is important because why should India and china have to emit less per person than we do? Why should their economies suffer because of our privilige? Why can't they have air con like we do for example and the other things that consume massive amounts of power like us? The emergeling middle classes in India and china have to suffer but we don't because we were born here? That hardly seems fair.

[NavyDiver]

I have no issue with these EXPERIMENTS being carried out here in Australia, but why should my tax dollars go to subsidising these EXPERIMENTS especially as most of them require HUGE amounts of additional energy to supply the end users, thats you and me, with the same amount of energy a coal fired power station provides.

That mean we will most likely see at least a 50% increase in our power bills, just these gage-green lovers can feel good in themselves, but not real advantage for the country as a whole.
air con on. Us Mexicans melt in 36[biggrin] Just kidding I run happily in 36 temps. The solar PV on my roof makes the AC at home and at work free. With the cool bits you sell I assumed your home might be smarter than mine.

Coal and gas are almost certainly going to be useful again when we have pyrolysis or other tech to use it with out stuffing up the environment. Honestly look at it a little like selling billions of cubic metres of our gas reserves for peanuts when keeping it would give us options to really make use of it for ourselves.

Not anti gas or coal. Not happy with stuffing our environment seems reasonable.

[JDNSW]

I understand the pressure on economies of not selling our coal. But we're quickly moving to a point that worldwide economies are going to crash because of human induced climate change. I'd rather this generation suffer slightly with higher prices than future generations exist on a planet that quickly becomes unlivable.

And we're the 12th largest emitter per capita according to wikapedia. That is important because why should India and china have to emit less per person than we do? Why should their economies suffer because of our privilige? Why can't they have air con like we do for example and the other things that consume massive amounts of power like us? The emergeling middle classes in India and china have to suffer but we don't because we were born here? That hardly seems fair.

I'm afraid that you are missing a point. World economies do not operate on fairness. They operate on the quarterly bottom line.

Which is one of the major problems with the world. Since the 1970s, we have seen most of the world adopt Friedmann's view of how the economy works, which basically says that there is no value in long term outcomes, the only thing that matters is the quarterly bottom line. Which is, of course, nonsense. And governments, and indeed many businesses (not all businesses are run by bean counters) do not really follow this mantra, simply because long term outcomes do matter, and sooner or later the short term viewpoint will bite you (see Boeing for example).

[PhilipA]

I would expect that Ukraine would cut of the Russian gas if attacked as nordstream 1 goes through their territory. The EU would then have no option but to
keep the LIGNITE coal fired plants going and the Nuclear power stations.
The attached quote from the Australian of today 26 012022 has just been added but an interesting and not often thought of possibility.

The knock-on effect of Russia conflict with Ukraine will be global famine
https://media.theaustralian.com.au/authors/images/bio/roger_boyes.png
ROGER BOYES (https://www.theaustralian.com.au/author/Roger+Boyes)

https://cdn.newsapi.com.au/image/v1/d41252781eed2e346c931f3b72845b15?width=650 (https://cdn.newsapi.com.au/image/v1/d41252781eed2e346c931f3b72845b15)Two workers walk near a gas flare-off at the Mamontovskoye oil-fieldin Russia. Picture: Bloomberg.



THE TIMES
12:12PM JANUARY 26, 2022
11 COMMENTS (https://www.theaustralian.com.au/world/the-times/the-knockon-effect-of-russia-conflict-with-ukraine-will-be-global-famine/news-story/3814a724398703843f68f7058cd41223#coral)

Russia has always held open the option of deploying its natural gas supplies to the West as a weapon, one that could either complement its tank divisions or replace them. States that displeased the Kremlin were sometimes confronted with sudden “technical” pipeline issues in the midst of a cold winter. Gazprom officials visiting central and east European customers were treated like princelings, at least to their faces. Russian gas has become an instrument of punishment and reward.

Now the West is anxious that already high gas prices will add to a looming cost of living crisis at home. As the Russians tighten their stranglehold on Ukraine in an unusually stretched-out and public period of antebellum, so the price of short-term gas has climbed to three times the price in January last year, and six times the typical pre-pandemic level. When Russian gas supplies slumped before Christmas – supposedly because of unusually cold temperatures but probably also as a reminder to a new German government to approve quickly the Nord Stream 2 pipeline – prices soared even higher.
https://cdn.newsapi.com.au/image/v1/2e4772723aed133ee7986c6b7ad12d8b?width=650 (https://cdn.newsapi.com.au/image/v1/2e4772723aed133ee7986c6b7ad12d8b)Russian gas has become an instrument of punishment and reward. Picture: Zuma Press.
The cost of energy is, of course, politically toxic. Not least in Britain as Ofgem prepares to raise its energy bill cap. Britain is less dependent than many of its European neighbours on Russian gas but it cannot stay immune from galloping global prices. If Russia marches into Ukraine, or even if it just prolongs the current stand-off through the winter, the stress on the gas market will render it more volatile than in a decade. For separate reasons, including an Iranian-backed Houthi rebel drone attack on the United Arab Emirates, oil has already hit a seven-year high this month and Brent crude seems set to reach $100 a barrel by September.

But it’s gas that is the problem and it is folly to look at the trends through a parochial spectrum. Natural gas is essential to the production of nitrogenous fertilisers, of urea, ammonium nitrate. For the past six months farmers across the world have struggled with the cost and scarcity of fertilisers. Unable to scrape together enough to fertilise and enrich their fields, unable to secure credit to tide them through to harvest, they warn that this year’s yields will be low.
Fertiliser plants are closing or operating at half strength because there is no way of predicting how far prices will rise. China has banned the export of phosphate fertiliser since last autumn to ensure its own farmers get enough. That hits India’s wheat sowing. The urea shortage has mobilised road-blocking protests by farmers in Pakistan; they complain that wheat output, sugar cane and maize will be affected.
https://cdn.newsapi.com.au/image/v1/cd1d50c7bd5d2ef8e9d2922fc4f9c197?width=650 (https://cdn.newsapi.com.au/image/v1/cd1d50c7bd5d2ef8e9d2922fc4f9c197)Exhaust fumes rise from a Ukrainian heating plant in Kiev. Gazprom has said it would stop supplies to Ukraine while Moscow was also reducing coal deliveries to the country. Picture: EPA.
Here then is the knock-on effect of a confrontation between Russia and Ukraine: the potential for famine. Conventional political sloganeering in Britain suggests the hard-up face a winter choice between heating and eating. But what is beginning to happen worldwide goes well beyond that dilemma and its banal advice to put on a sweater and perform a few star jumps in the living room.
The UN Food and Agriculture Organisation predicts famine conditions affecting 45 million. “The world,” it says, “hasn’t faced such a risk of widespread famine affecting multiple countries so severely in over a decade.” That includes countries like Taliban-governed, difficult-to-access Afghanistan where severely malnourished children are overwhelming health centres. The menace of extreme weather will continue to flood and scorch arable land in Africa and Asia. Incompetently run states will continue to fail their vulnerable citizens.
The exploding cost of gas, however, has been impossible to plan for. Kim Jong-un’s North Korea, cut off from Chinese fertiliser, has instructed rural communities to supply their own manure, in the form of human excrement (euphemistically called “night soil").
https://cdn.newsapi.com.au/image/v1/96097b6d9c746c7e1a029fc0f1b300b0?width=650 (https://cdn.newsapi.com.au/image/v1/96097b6d9c746c7e1a029fc0f1b300b0)Russian President Vladimir Putin awon’t hesitate to weaponise Russia’s energy supplies. Picture: AFP.
Access to markets is denied to farmers who can’t produce a manure pass, a logbook recording how much homemade fertiliser has been generated that week. North Korea is a famine barometer. It experienced terrible starvation in the 1990s when people were reduced to eating grass, so Kim has attuned his dictatorship to prepare for the worst in terms of food supply. Now he is not that far ahead of the loop. The Four Horsemen of the Apocalypse, it seems, are saddling up. There’s nothing quite like the prospect of a European war to get the fabled demons – conquest, war, pestilence and famine – mounted and ready to wreak chaos. And famine always rides in last to claim those weakened by misgovernment and disease.
The way the West chooses to fight its battles often makes famine worse. A US warship recently intercepted a 40-ton load of fertiliser from Iran to Yemen. The cargo, said the US, could have been used as explosives and confiscated the lot. Syria can’t import nitrogenous fertilisers for a similar reason. And the US treasury is trying to get Lithuania to block the transport of potash fertiliser from Belarus, in order to punish dictator President Lukashenko.
This kind of blockade may penalise regimes but it comes with a price tag, the sacrifice of moral high ground to tyrants at the expense of their people. That’s why disconnecting Russia from the international payments system, should it invade Ukraine, is such a complex decision.
Strategic planners have spent decades worrying about World War III but they were missing the point. War, when it comes, will have some 20th-century features but probably won’t be fought in multiple interlocking theatres. Rather, the fighting will be swift and confined – but the victims will be worldwide.
The Times
https://i1.wp.com/pixel.tcog.cp1.news.com.au/track/news/v3/authors/?byline=Roger%2520Boyes&esi=true&t_product=the-australian&t_template=s3/austemp-article_common/broadsheet/components/article-author/widget-v3.1&td_bio=true&td_byline=Roger%2520Boyes&td_extended=true
Regards PhilipA
I think we are i a pretty good position but prices to farmers will probably go up.

[Arapiles]

And we're the 12th largest emitter per capita according to wikapedia. .


But the climate is affected by actual emissions, not per capita ones.

And our emissions are in any case no more than in line with the size of our economy, which is about 12th or 13th largest in the world.

[Porker]

Climate change never existed until 1968 when The Club of Rome think tank met to discuss ways of increasing revenue…
We should be trying to create renewable energy so we can make better use of our other energy reserve’s because they are not a infinite resource.

[NavyDiver]

Climate change never existed until 1968 when The Club of Rome think tank met to discuss ways of increasing revenue…
We should be trying to create renewable energy so we can make better use of our other energy reserve’s because they are not a infinite resource.

Margret thatchers speech on the topic seemed interesting. She didn't seem a softy to most of us?

"“The problem of global climate change is one that affects us all and action will only be effective if it is taken at the international level. “It is no good squabbling over who is responsible or who should pay,” she said.8 Aug 2021
"
earlier she hammered it clearly

https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=VnAzoDtwCBg

G Bush "In June of 1989, just six months into his term, President Bush tabled amendments to the Clean Air Act to improve air quality in U.S. cities, reduce U.S. emissions of ozone-depleting substances (the ozone hole over the Antarctic had been discovered in 1984), and tackle acid rain, which had become a pressing issue. Coal-fired power plants, mostly in the Midwest, were polluting the atmosphere with sulfur dioxide, which was leading to acid rain in the Northeast and mid-Atlantic, damaging forests and killing aquatic wildlife. Canada was particularly affected (sadly, air currents ignore international boundaries), and U.S.-Canada relations were suffering as a result. President Bush sought to cap the total quantity of sulfur dioxide that could be emitted, and reduce that cap over time."

Its not a new issue at all[biggrin]

[gusthedog]

No it's not a new issue. Since very little has been done on climate change in 50 plus years though, the issue is starting to escalate - potentially exponentially. We may have already exceeded safe warming limits.

We think we're so smart as a race, but we're actually killing the planet at an extraordinary rate. That's what will bring us undone - our inability to perceive the dire situation were in. There has been no quicker warming of the planet (excluding external forces like a ****ing big asteroid and the like) than what we're doing now.

Our inaction as a nation is famous on the world stage. We aren't pulling our weight on climate change at all and I'm sick of it. Apart from being an entitled, bigoted, sexist bastard, #scottyfrommarketing has put us so far behind on climate policy, we're the laughing stock of the world.

[Tins]

Fascinating. The rate that the Chinese and Indians are building coal fired power stations makes any virtue signalling you all choose to do here utterly pointless. And they are burning OUR coal. Good grief.

[Arapiles]

Fascinating. The rate that the Chinese and Indians are building coal fired power stations makes any virtue signalling you all choose to do here utterly pointless. And they are burning OUR coal. Good grief.


Except that, as I've posted before, the Chinese aren't doing so. The purported hundreds of new coal powered stations being built by the Chinese are a furphy: they either haven't been built or aren't being used if they have been built.

Edit: oh, and since the Chinese banned Australian coal imports until recently they haven't been burning Australia coal.

[Tins]

Except that, as I've posted before, the Chinese aren't doing so. The purported hundreds of new coal powered stations being built by the Chinese are a furphy: they either haven't been built or aren't being used if they have been built.

Edit: oh, and since the Chinese banned Australian coal imports until recently they haven't been burning Australia coal.

You are, of course, entitled to your opinion. There are a few who would disagree, but never mind....

Analysis: Will China build hundreds of new coal plants in the 2020s? (https://www.carbonbrief.org/analysis-will-china-build-hundreds-of-new-coal-plants-in-the-2020s)

China To Build 43 New Coal-Fired Power Plants – Watts Up With That? (https://wattsupwiththat.com/2021/08/25/china-to-build-43-new-coal-fired-power-plants/)

Forget Paris: 1,600 New Coal-fired Power Plants are Planned or Under Construction in 62 Countries – The Saltbush Club (https://saltbushclub.com/2019/01/21/1600-new-coal-power-plants-worldwide/)

And not only in China: China commissions first part of largest coal-fired power station under construction - Teller Report (https://www.tellerreport.com/business/2021-12-28-china-commissions-first-part-of-largest-coal-fired-power-station-under-construction.SkGBrpuOiK.html)

https://www.powermag.com/wp-content/uploads/2020/10/china-coal-plant-brief-june-2020v2.pdf

At this time China is not buying Australia's coal because they wish to punish us for our stance on human rights issues, and our boycotting of offical status of the Winter Olympics.

China will need our coal sooner rather than later, and I find your lack of interest in the Indian need for our coal 'interesting'. India is nearly as serious a user of fossil fuel as China.

What we do here, virtue signalling as it is, means absolutely nothing. But, keeping your head in the sand is your privilege.

[Tins]

Except that, as I've posted before, the Chinese aren't doing so.

You have posted this before, but I don't recall you backing it up with articles, links. There are countless articles and links supporting what I have said, in an environment that wishes to deny it. You could surely quote one or two that support your position. I can find thousands.

[NavyDiver]

No it's not a new issue. Since very little has been done on climate change in 50 plus years though, the issue is starting to escalate - potentially exponentially. We may have already exceeded safe warming limits.

We think we're so smart as a race, but we're actually killing the planet at an extraordinary rate. That's what will bring us undone - our inability to perceive the dire situation were in. There has been no quicker warming of the planet (excluding external forces like a ****ing big asteroid and the like) than what we're doing now.

Our inaction as a nation is famous on the world stage. We aren't pulling our weight on climate change at all and I'm sick of it. Apart from being an entitled, bigoted, sexist bastard, #scottyfrommarketing has put us so far behind on climate policy, we're the laughing stock of the world.
Ozone deleting gasses- Outlawed almost every where. I think most of us would remember hearing VERY LOULDY why that would never happen[thumbsupbig]

Even some of my wet types suggesting with out Haylon "We'll All Be Rooned" (Bromotrifluoromethane) [biggrin]

Its not a sprint though many of us think it should be. With Mersk shipping, WA news today and multiple other projects all starting the inevitable changes need just like with C.F.C.s.

The cool bit is we can help by doing it right. And even make some money for all of us IF it is right. There is clearly causalities in the changes which have already occurred and will continue to occur faster. With the likes of Newscorp changing path from bull dust spinners to a little reality there appears some hope [bigrolf]

[PhilipA]

Even some of my wet types suggesting with out Haylon "We'll All Be Rooned" (Bromotrifluoromethane)

The fact is that halon is not banned in the USA and many other countries although generally not produced any more. Still lots around.
even in Australia it is still used in aircraft.
Rules of the Road: Time to replace halon systems | Triton (the-triton.com) (https://www.the-triton.com/2018/03/rules-of-the-road-time-to-replace-halon-systems/)
Just want to have facts.
Regards PhilipA
Looks like still made in China!
Halon Extinguisher China Trade,Buy China Direct From Halon Extinguisher Factories at Alibaba.com (https://www.alibaba.com/countrysearch/CN/halon-extinguisher.html)

Makes a bit of a joke of Australia leading the World by virtuous example doesn't it.

[BradC]

Looks like still made in China!

As are most of the CFCs. From memory India has a good bit of CFC production also. I mean, why wouldn't you? They're mature technology, easy to make and pretty much ideal in their use.

Halon hasn't been replaced in aircraft because there's still no replacement that ticks all the boxes. I still remember all the BCF extinguishers we had dotted around the boats over the years and was highly unimpressed when we had to trade those in for dry powder.

[NavyDiver]

As are most of the CFCs. From memory India has a good bit of CFC production also. I mean, why wouldn't you? They're mature technology, easy to make and pretty much ideal in their use.

Halon hasn't been replaced in aircraft because there's still no replacement that ticks all the boxes. I still remember all the BCF extinguishers we had dotted around the boats over the years and was highly unimpressed when we had to trade those in for dry powder.

Share your thoughts on dry powder- Noting more than a few warm beer cans chilled icy cold by an older type of boat Beer Chiller Whoops I mean fire extinguisher [biggrin]

[BradC]

Share your thoughts on dry powder- Noting more than a few warm beer cans chilled icy cold by an older type of boat Beer Chiller Whoops I mean fire extinguisher [biggrin]

CO2 for cooling beer. Dry powder just makes a terrible mess.

[PhilipA]

I read somewhere ( I think in this thread) that 91% of new electricity capacity in the World is from renewables.

I have attached this article which demonstrates that of that 91% claimed it is probably only 10% as renewables exponents are always quoting "nameplate rating" which I hope we all know is a totally inadequate way of measuring renewable capacity seeing that wind for example rarely contributes more than 30% of "nameplate rating" and very often much less.

We Should Not Compare Electricity Sources Using Nameplate Ratings – Watts Up With That? (https://wattsupwiththat.com/2022/01/29/we-should-not-compare-electricity-sources-using-nameplate-ratings/)

Regards PhilipA

[vnx205]

While it is obviously true that the nameplate rating isn't an accurate measure of the actual output, it would be good to get a more reliable source than "Watts Up With That?" to know what a more realistic figure would be.

"Watts Up With That?" is known to be an unreliable source of information.

176710

[PhilipA]

Watts Up With That?" is known to be an unreliable source of information.

According to the climate change religious and Michael Mann who was involved in the Climategate "hide the decline " scandal.

Perhaps it would be an idea to open up to alternative points of view, just like the Eu has now done by recognising that gas is "green" LOL.

Some interesting articles on WUWT , some by Jennifer Mahoresy showing how the BOM is corrupting data and using one second maximum temperature readings not the World Standard.

Or would many prefer to believe David Attenborough who has now admitted driving walruses off a cliff to promote climate change.
Regards PhilipA

[BradC]

Perhaps it would be an idea to open up to alternative points of view, just like the Eu has now done by recognising that gas is "green" LOL.

I'm not entering the climate change debate, but based on the worldwide stigma surrounding the release of carbon into the atmosphere I can't quite get my head around this. It's like saying burning biomass is clean, green energy. Aside from a couple of (hundred) thousand years, what's the difference between biomass (wood chips/pellets) and coal? Both release an equivalent amount of carbon when burned and ultimately both came from the same place.

Are they trying to say that because they plant trees they can burn cut down trees and it's net-zero? Where the hell are all these newly planted trees growing at a rate that offsets the mass being burned?

I'm all for "clean" power, but call it what it is. It's not clean and it's not green. Then again, I suppose calling it green allows Europe to flagellate the rest of the first world for not having a high enough percentage of "green" power.

Solar is approaching green, if they can figure out what to do with the dead cells, wind power will never get there. About the greenest power we have on the planet is hydro (or the N word).

[vnx205]

According to the climate change religious and Michael Mann who was involved in the Climategate "hide the decline " scandal.
Regards PhilipA

According to this site, your criticism of Michael Mann is not justified.

What do the 'Climategate' hacked CRU emails tell us? (https://skepticalscience.com/Climategate-CRU-emails-hacked.htm)

That site concludes
a number of independent investigations have found no evidence of falsification or conspiracy by climate scientists.

Skeptical Science" appears to be a more reliable source of information than "Watt's Up With That?"

"176719



February 2010. the Pennsylvania State University released an Inquiry Report (http://theprojectonclimatescience.org/wp-content/uploads/2010/04/Findings_Mann_Inquiry.pdf) that investigated any 'Climategate' emails involving Dr Michael Mann, a Professor of Penn State's Department of Meteorology. They found that "there exists no credible evidence that Dr. Mann had or has ever engaged in, or participated in, directly or indirectly, any actions with an intent to suppress or to falsify data". On "Mike's Nature trick", they concluded "The so-called “trick”1 was nothing more than a statistical method used to bring two or more different kinds of data sets together in a legitimate fashion by a technique that has been reviewed by a broad array of peers in the field."

[PhilipA]

Pen state Uni is Mann's Alma Mater.
There is no debate that the emails between University of East Anglia and Mann stated "how do we hide the decline"

the Hockey stick Graph was based on tree rings from ONE tree up until they became unreliable and Mann then switched in the 20th century to another basis , which you cannot do .

Look I am not going to get into a debate about climate change especially when the debate uses Ad hominem abuse , which means the abuser has already lost.

The topic we are discussing is various governments' responses to believed climate change ie the rush to renewables.

The article in WUWT discussed Government responses to climate change, and surely this is a topic of interest without the need for instant denigration.

There are some other articles now posted discussing erosion of blades on sea based wind generators causing 4.5% PA reduction in output from salt erosion and questioning the UK Government agency calculations of per KWh costs for sea based wind generators .
Interesting stuff.

[vnx205]

That investigation was one of six independent investigations.
The article explained that the "decline" did not refer to a decline in temperature. That comment did not mean what critics have claimed it meant.
Am I being accused of playing the man not the ball? All I have done is provide evidence of the dubious reliability of some of your sources.
I am not trying to get you into a debate about climate change. I am just trying to get you to look more closely at the reliability of sources of information that you are quoting.

[PhilipA]

Am I being accused of playing the man not the ball? All I have done is provide evidence of the dubious reliability of some of your sources.
I am not trying to get you into a debate about climate change. I am just trying to get you to look more closely at the reliability of sources of information that you are quoting.


My impression after reading the above is that you have not read any of the articles in WUWT.

WUWT is a FORUM , somewhat like This one where the owner Anthony Watts publishes contributions and then vigorous debate follows from both Pro and con sides.

There are many eminent scientists that publish articles including Professor Judith Curry who has testified before congress, Dr Susan Crockford who is a world authority on The Climate Change poster child Polar Bears , Dr Roger Pielke, Dr Roy Spencer, Dr Tim Ball and many others.

Of course there are some crazies as there is on this forum, but do you not contribute because of some crazies? Do you not trust yourself to have the intelligence to separate fact from fiction?

Did you believe that lemmings jumped over a cliff? Did you believe David Attenborough that walruses did the same without some external threat?
Regards PhilipA

[NavyDiver]

I read somewhere ( I think in this thread) that 91% of new electricity capacity in the World is from renewables.

I have attached this article which demonstrates that of that 91% claimed it is probably only 10% as renewables exponents are always quoting "nameplate rating" which I hope we all know is a totally inadequate way of measuring renewable capacity seeing that wind for example rarely contributes more than 30% of "nameplate rating" and very often much less.

We Should Not Compare Electricity Sources Using Nameplate Ratings – Watts Up With That? (https://wattsupwiththat.com/2022/01/29/we-should-not-compare-electricity-sources-using-nameplate-ratings/)

Regards PhilipA

With wind wound down often as other wise we would have too much power your right of course Phillip.

Noted that often when driving past hundreds of Wind generators which now exist along the Hamilton Highway ( VIC)

A whisper plus is more than every drop of the wind and solar power wasted currently as it cannot be used or stored fast enough just might have a few options coming to fix that issue? Shell news

"thyssenkrupp Uhde Chlorine Engineers recently signed (https://www.thyssenkrupp.com/en/newsroom/press-releases/pressdetailpage/thyssenkrupp-to-install-200-mw-green-hydrogen-facility-for-shell-in-port-of-rotterdam-125812) a supply contract with Shell for the large-scale project Hydrogen Holland I in the port of Rotterdam, the Netherlands. Under the contract, thyssenkrupp nucera—formerly thyssenkrupp Uhde Chlorine Engineers—will engineer, procure and fabricate a 200 MW electrolysis plant based on their large-scale 20 MW alkaline water electrolysis module.
First construction work for the electrolyzers will likely begin in Spring 2022. Shell’s final investment decision to build the Holland Hydrogen I is expected in 2022, after which the intended start of production will be in 2024."


What might be interesting about a "200 MW" electrolysis plant (or 2) is it "would" supply enough Hydrogen from otherwise wasted Solar, wind power for the storage and generation to eliminate all coal used today and have a lot spare to sell? Just musing not suggesting everything is perfect[biggrin]

[gusthedog]

Did you guys know that wind power sites actually use power when they aren't producing? Cherry Tree near Seymour uses 1.5mw a day when not producing

Wind power is great for supplementary load, but not base load. My understanding is the only other suitable alternative for base load at the moment is nuclear. Everything else can't produce the reliable base load we need.

Interestingly a mate who works in the industry did the sums and we would need over 1,000 of the South Australian mega batteries to run peak summer load in Victoria. So that's not really an option either.

[Arapiles]

My impression after reading the above is that you have not read any of the articles in WUWT.

WUWT is a FORUM , somewhat like This one where the owner Anthony Watts publishes contributions and then vigorous debate follows from both Pro and con sides.

There are many eminent scientists that publish articles including Professor Judith Curry who has testified before congress, Dr Susan Crockford who is a world authority on The Climate Change poster child Polar Bears , Dr Roger Pielke, Dr Roy Spencer, Dr Tim Ball and many others.

Of course there are some crazies as there is on this forum, but do you not contribute because of some crazies? Do you not trust yourself to have the intelligence to separate fact from fiction?

Did you believe that lemmings jumped over a cliff? Did you believe David Attenborough that walruses did the same without some external threat?
Regards PhilipA


Eminent scientists indeed: to take the example of Professor Judith Curry;



"Judith A. Curry is an American climatologist (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Climatologist) and former chair of the School of Earth and Atmospheric Sciences at the Georgia Institute of Technology (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Georgia_Institute_of_Technology). ......Curry has become known as a contrarian (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Contrarian) scientist hosting a blog which is part of the climate change denial (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Climate_change_denial) blogosphere (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Blogosphere).[3] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judith_Curry#cite_note-DunlapBrulle2015-3)

Social scientists who have studied Curry's position on climate change have described it as "neo-skepticism", in that her current position includes certain features of denialism: On the one hand, she accepts that the planet is warming, that human-generated greenhouse gases (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Global_warming) such as carbon dioxide cause warming, and that the plausible worst-case scenario is potentially catastrophic, but on the other hand, she also proposes that the rate of warming is slower than climate models (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Climate_model) have projected, emphasizes her evaluation of the uncertainty in the climate prediction models, and questions whether climate change mitigation (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Climate_change_mitigation) is affordable.[4] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judith_Curry#cite_note-ANU_Press-4) Despite the broad consensus among climate scientists that climate change requires urgent action, Curry has testified to the United States Congress that, in her opinion, there is so much uncertainty about natural climate variation that trying to reduce emissions may be pointless.[5] (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Judith_Curry#cite_note-5) "


Make that eminent-climate-change-denying-or-contrarian-experts.

[PhilipA]

Make that eminent-climate-change-denying-or-contrarian-experts.
See there you go name calling again.
You lose.
Have you actually listened to her testimony to Congress and the utter drivel put forward by Mann at the same time and his attacks on her character?`
I suggest that you do.
And perhaps be a little more skeptical in what you accept to be unbiassed .
Regards PhilipA

[NavyDiver]

Did you guys know that wind power sites actually use power when they aren't producing? Cherry Tree near Seymour uses 1.5mw a day when not producing

Wind power is great for supplementary load, but not base load. My understanding is the only other suitable alternative for base load at the moment is nuclear. Everything else can't produce the reliable base load we need.

Interestingly a mate who works in the industry did the sums and we would need over 1,000 of the South Australian mega batteries to run peak summer load in Victoria. So that's not really an option either.

Nuclear got a huge jump after a Canadian Company new yesterday. Here in Vic not a chance of Science only based discussion I assume ( Australia not AULRO gurus I mean)

"AGL brings forward coal power exit by at least three years" 2040s [bighmmm] Suspect given some other Canadian/Western Australian news may shake that up a lot- Yet to be proven!! 'H' not just U308 is interesting. (MOU for Hydrogen Production Project in Canada)[B] HZR

99% of Batteries are still tiny and expensive and very short term. No chance they do much more than shot term load balancing I suspect. I love my work UPS batteries[thumbsupbig] Great for that small role.

AGL is interesting to watch I think.

[NavyDiver]

Coal is up 221.26% for the Year!!! (https://tradingeconomics.com/commodity/coal) The price increases in carbon fuels, oil, gas and coal inflicts on Japan, Germany and others who have the option to restart nuclear will be interesting to watch.

The price increase makes it cost more to generate power with coal and does NOT make it more attractive[biggrin]

Some $$$$$$$$$$$$$ are burning!

[PhilipA]

Seeing there are sunk costs for coal powered stations and potential capital requirements for wind or solar it is difficult to see how demand Far in excess of supply can be seen as negative for coal.
regards PhilipA

[NavyDiver]

Seeing there are sunk costs for coal powered stations and potential capital requirements for wind or solar it is difficult to see how demand Far in excess of supply can be seen as negative for coal.
regards PhilipA

Sunk might be the right word Phillip? Question of Future costs is far more relevant to investors. No doubt you can buy /use coal here. Not one new or replacement scheduled? The NSW natural gas one is also Hydrogen ( Noted 11 billion+ in Hydrogen take overs and investments counted just today)

ACT, NT, SA and Tas have no coal power. "capital requirements" at a cost is apparently much cheaper thank coal is and has been for a few years now. 2019 report on that if you want to read it (https://www.irena.org/publications/2020/Jun/Renewable-Power-Costs-in-2019).


Make hay while the sun shines is very true and while coal price is massively impacted by Russia and also the significant gas price increase it might be a great time to take profits if your in that sector. I am think it likely there will be signifcant increase in costs on fossil fuel emission locally and also internationally sooner than may be expected.

[drivesafe]

Yes we must rush into the GREEN electricity supply, just like the UK.

There electricity bills have risen 800% in two years, electricity suppliers are going bust, and this winter has be particularly difficult for the UK to supply electricity because it was one of the most WINDLESS winters on recored, so the fantastic wind generators could not supply what was needed ( or promised ).

This garbage that GREEN power is cheaper, has not been the case with any country that has gone down that ditch.

I saw the a picture the other day, of the first load of coal on the new Bowen Railway, up in north Queensland.

So much for the coal industry dying.

It was a great picture of another train load of Organic Electric Car Fuel.

[PhilipA]

The only reason there are no new coal fired power stations is politics.
Clive Palmer is ready and able to finance a new HELE plant at his coal mine and was given the go ahead by the local government but approval Aiken over by the Queensland government,
There are three others in panning stage .
I know the main design engineer.
Regards PhilipA

[NavyDiver]

The only reason there are no new coal fired power stations is politics.
Clive Palmer is ready and able to finance a new HELE plant at his coal mine and was given the go ahead by the local government but approval Aiken over by the Queensland government,
There are three others in panning stage .
I know the main design engineer.
Regards PhilipA

I thought Clive needed to bankrupt WA to be able to do much[biggrin] He is my new magic pudding in so many ways. Titanic fail and so many more[thumbsupbig]

[PhilipA]

I am surprised the you resort to denigration without knowing the facts .

Clive no matter what you think of him is an astute businessman and one of the only Australian business figures who have trounced the Chinese in business negotiations.

I have no love for him but respect his business sense and don’t you think WA were done over and forced to change a law to avoid paying a contractual obligation freely entered into.

Rgards PhilipA

[Homestar]

I am surprised the you resort to denigration without knowing the facts .

Clive no matter what you think of him is an astute businessman and one of the only Australian business figures who have trounced the Chinese in business negotiations.

I have no love for him but respect his business sense and don’t you think WA were done over and forced to change a law to avoid paying a contractual obligation freely entered into.

Rgards PhilipA

Very astute - refused to pay what was owed when he walked away from Qld Nickel and only paid when the court ordered him to - was happy to leave the workers with none of their entitlements even though he could afford it without a blip to his lifestyle or anything else.

He's a despicable excuse for a human being & an oxygen thief. Only saving grace is due to his size, I'm sure he'll die an early death due to something like heart disease, etc.

[drivesafe]

Agree that Clive is a lowlife, but the Chinese had everything ready to go to build two new power stations in the Hunter Valley, and they were stopped.

In this case, it was to keep the Chinese out, ( a good move ) but if they could see the potential why is it that no one else is trying.

We need at least two new coal fired power stations, just to meet our short term needs, and a total of four to meet our long term needs and to support growth.

Green power does NOT work and there are now plenty of examples from overseas to prove this.

Furthermore, even the greenie controlled Labor Party is now saying we need a gas fired power station, because they know that even a SMALL increase in electric car owner ship will totally overwhelm the existing power supply, WITH the existing coal fired power stations, which are now expected to be closed sooner than planned.

Who is going to pay for these new power supplies and the massive increase in the grid just so a SMALL number of people can drive their new electric cars?

[gusthedog]

What about the new solar plants being installed around the traps? Are they useless too? The one at Winton on the Hume hwy looks cool as.

Not sure how affective they are. But clearly they only work when the sun is shining.

[NavyDiver]

What about the new solar plants being installed around the traps? Are they useless too? The one at Winton on the Hume hwy looks cool as.

Not sure how affective they are. But clearly they only work when the sun is shining.

Solar needs sun[thumbsupbig] Clive and Hitlers bullet proof car could go in so many places "Clive Palmer may have just bought Hitler's car, say Liberals and Labor" ABC fodder so not totally offensive I hope dear mods[bigsmile1]

Germany will be buying a LOT of coal to cover the Nord Stream 2 boycott. Sunshine for coal ?
https://www.aljazeera.com/wp-content/uploads/2021/09/377976855.jpg'resize=770%2C513

"The 18 coal plants operating in Serbia, Kosovo, Bosnia and Herzegovina, North Macedonia and Montenegro were responsible for 19,000 deaths over the past three years, according to projections in a report by CEE Bankwatch Network and the Centre for Research on Energy and Clean Air. More than half of those deaths were estimated to be within the EU."

With prices up and use up for coal the cost is clear? [bigwhistle][bigwhistle][bigwhistle]
I wonder why Clive Needs a bullet proof car?
https://live-production.wcms.abc-cdn.net.au/5141890e7a94a6eeceaed5b93d69c201?impolicy=wcms_cro p_resize&cropH=583&cropW=1036&xPos=146&yPos=54&width=862&height=485

[DiscoDB]

Is this the CA thread I keep hearing about?

Lot of slander and controversial statements against individuals, countries, the governments - it has got it all.

I love it. [emoji106]

Back on topic - coal spot price is taking off thanks to the actions of an alleged war criminal, bully and super-lowlife.

Even China has been quietly taking Australian coal again!

Coal mining is booming here in Australia.

[NavyDiver]

Is this the CA thread I keep hearing about?

Lot of slander and controversial statements against individuals, countries, the governments - it has got it all.

I love it. [emoji106]

Back on topic - coal spot price is taking off thanks to the actions of an alleged war criminal, bully and super-lowlife.

Even China has been quietly taking Australian coal again!

Coal mining is booming here in Australia.

Correct plus. It is make hay while the sun shines I think as does a nice well known Coal/Government gent "Coal-fired power in Australia could be over within 10 years concedes lobbyist Ian Macfarlane" Didn't really surprised me this morning[thumbsupbig] From a Bull to a Bear "Only five years ago former Coalition resources minister and now lobbyist Ian Macfarlane argued Australia needed to build more coal-fired power stations, now he concedes there could be none left in 10 years."

Smart gent I think.

[DiscoDB]

A lot of the smaller coal mines in Australia have less than 10 years of ore remaining in their current life of mine plans.

There will be larger mines still running beyond 10yrs, but getting finance, insurance, and approvals for new mines or expansions is very challenging.

However it is unlikely we will see a stop to exporting coking coal used for steel making for some time to come. If we are still exporting iron ore, we will be still exporting coking coal.

I predict in 10yrs time, most thermal coal still being used in Power Stations in China will come from Russia. There are a lot of new mines opening up in Russia and they will be able to get finance and insurance from China.

75% of the proven coal reserves in the world are in just 5 countries - USA (23%), Russia (15%), Australia (14%), China (13%), and India (10%). Sitting just outside of the top 5 is Ukraine. [emoji848]

[JDNSW]

.........

75% of the proven coal reserves in the world are in just 5 countries - USA (23%), Russia (15%), Australia (14%), China (13%), and India (10%). Sitting just outside of the top 5 is Ukraine. [emoji848]

These figures are essentially meaningless. "Proven reserves" is a legally defined term intended to prevent stock market fraud. Proving reserves is time consuming and expensive (involves lots of drilling), and is only done to satisfy a customer or a potential customer that the coal is there before they can be persuaded to sign a contract.

The only relation between "proven reserves" and "real economically recoverable coal" is that the latter is larger - but the size of both figures also depends on the actual price of coal, not to mention potential or actual restrictions on mining, and it is quite easy to see "proven reserves" worldwide going to zero worldwide in the lifetime of many of us, not because the coal was all mined, but because it is either unsaleable or impossible to mine.

Anyone with a moderate knowledge of world geology recognises that the figure for "proven reserves" is a tiny fraction of the actual coal that is potentially mineable. For example, in the Sydney basin, coal has been mined round the edges from the Hunter to Lithgow to Illawarra, and in the middle of Sydney - but the coal is present over the whole basin, just not as easy to mine (same reason the rail bridge over the Hawkesbury killed the mine at Balmain!).

[DiscoDB]

Correct - actual coal reserves, when you include unproven reserves, are even larger again if you can get approval for new exploration and new mining, and of course can prove it is economically viable to mine.

As an example, unlikely we will see coal mining under Sydney again even though there would still be coal present.

What it does mean is China and Russia can be self sufficient on coal and won’t be reliant on western financing or insurance to develop new mines.

Hence, the western countries will phase out coal first (due to political and environmental pressure), and Russia, China, and possibly India will carry on regardless (due to economic need).

There are some pretty important lines being drawn in the sand around the world at present, and fossil fuels seem to be at the heart of it all.

[ramblingboy42]

Probably lots of coal available but that doesn't help todays news about Australia's coal fired power stations all shutting down by 2030....hot potato , hot potato.

I bet the govt backed AGL are absolutely spewing following Cannon-Brookes and his associates withdrawing their offer.

Maybe the Dean Bros will put in an offer for scrap demolition , as they are basically valueless.

No sympathy for board members or corporate investors......the warning lights have been flashing for years

And no sympathy for surrounding communities either , who have also had warning for years and years.

And it appears the big companies have no sympathy for the communities either.

It's all just big business operating at it's finest.

[drivesafe]

I'll lay money that straight after the Fed elections. regardless of who gets in, there will be new coal fired power stations announced, and at least two.

[NavyDiver]

I'll lay money that straight after the Fed elections. regardless of who gets in, there will be new coal fired power stations announced, and at least two.


Could we afford to pay for the coal now[biggrin][biggrin] Gas is up another 60% today! Coal OMG[biggrin] we Mexicans might have a lot of very wet very dirty unused brown coal? [bigrolf]

"The spot price for shipments leaving the Port of Newcastle in New South Wales soared to US$418 ($564) a tonne late last week, eclipsing the previous record of US$269 ($362) a tonne, which was set only four months ago.It is a significant turnaround from 2020, when the price dipped below US$50 ($67) a tonne.
" from ABC news

[HUE166]

I'll lay money that straight after the Fed elections. regardless of who gets in, there will be new coal fired power stations announced, and at least two.
We can only hope so.