Front driveshaft in or out of phase

[Gav 110]

I had a uni joint bearing fall apart on the front driveshaft after hitting the tracks in Dwellingup a couple of weeks ago causing shudder on acceleration.
I was looking at just replacing the uni joints, but the driveshaft had been damaged from it hitting the nut so thought it better to be replaced https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220129/7fca706b2d7a94517d2afd91a280a9dc.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220129/22e3ef4dca6ff0cc6a20934c71dabe99.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220129/64952febda0099f4d6f3924217b3dff6.jpg
I took the shaft to Hardy Spicer and after they priced up replacing the short half, both unis and balancing (also spline not perfect), it works out a lot cheaper to get a new shaft.

I didn’t even consider checking the phasing of the old shaft until after they had pulled it apart but new shaft came in phasehttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220129/61d1956e2a3e495ffd025aa612a83719.jpg
After reading a couple of old threads, it appears the joints should be out of phase by 45 degrees
I asked at HS and they recommended it be in phase, new shaft has grease nipples aligned and balanced to suit
What would you recommend

A) put shaft in as is

B) take it back to HS to get realigned and balanced

C) do the realignment myself and not worry about balancing (mates opinion)

D) leaved it out and have fun doing donuts and snakies on gravel tracks (son’s opinion)🤣🤣

[emoji481][emoji481]
Gav

[Toxic_Avenger]

I went thru the same question with my driveshaft. service manual suggests 45 degree angle between yokes, but most people suggest they line up.
I had a chat with a driveshaft guy about it, and he started asking if the driveline was internally balanced, or not- too many questions I didn't know answers to, so just left it.

If I were in your shoes, I'd probably go option A, as the manufacturer of the shaft probably set it up that way for a reason.

[DieselLSE]

Option A.

[rick130]

Front drive shaft on a Deefer has to be out of phase or it will vibrate.

It's all to do with the pinion angle, and is noted in the WSM.

The Land Rover diff pinion points up at the t/case, it isn't at a complimentary angle to the t/case output shaft so either the drive shaft is run out of phase or a double carden joint at the t/case end is used.


Driveline Geometry 101 – Tom Wood's Custom Drive Shafts (https://4xshaft.com/blogs/general-tech-info-articles/driveshaft-angles)

[101RRS]

I thought that phasing is not adjustable - well it is not on my older shafts as the splines only go together one way.

Garry

[Gav 110]

Front drive shaft on a Deefer has to be out of phase or it will vibrate.

It's all to do with the pinion angle, and is noted in the WSM.

The Land Rover diff pinion points up at the t/case, it isn't at a complimentary angle to the t/case output shaft so either the drive shaft is run out of phase or a double carden joint at the t/case end is used.


Driveline Geometry 101 – Tom Wood's Custom Drive Shafts (https://4xshaft.com/blogs/general-tech-info-articles/driveshaft-angles)

So in your opinion Rick, I should take it back to HS and get them to realign and rebalance?

That, from what I’ve been reading, is what I should be reading is what I should do

I managed to get hold of Kevin from Rovertech who said as they came out of the factory (and as the workshop manual states)
they should have an offset, he also said, if that’s the way HS have supplied it, that’s how I should fit it and see how it goes
I suppose what he’s saying is if I fit it and it vibrates HS are liable to fix it????

I would rather pay the extra now and do the job once[emoji1531][emoji1531]

[emoji481][emoji481]
Gav

[rick130]

I'd run it out if phase.
But it won't hurt to talk to HS and discretely mention the pinion angle and factory out of phase setup to compensate.

Years ago a mate had a mid 80's 110 with a mild vibration in the front end.
He had the drive shaft in phase.
An old mechanic looked at it.
"Run it out of phase"

My mate is a degree engineer [emoji23]

[DazzaTD5]

I'd simply slip the joint out and rotate it, I really dont think that will cause an issue.
I also suspect if you take it back, they will take it out to the workshop and do exactly the same thing.

[goingbush]

Needs to be out of phase.

this might help explain why .


https://youtu.be/gmV4qwLfOMY

[Gav 110]

I'd simply slip the joint out and rotate it, I really dont think that will cause an issue.
I also suspect if you take it back, they will take it out to the workshop and do exactly the same thing.

Hi Dazza

Will this not put the shaft out of balance?
If I have an issue later will warranty still be covered?
If I had just replaced the uni joints myself, I would have made sure it was out of phase as recommended in the workshop manual and by many here
But, being a brand new complete unit I think I will take it back to the manufacturer and at least get there opinion
They are not far from my workshop, so I will try to find the time to get it back there myself
I’ll let you know how I go and what the outcome is

[emoji481][emoji481][emoji481]
Gav

[Gav 110]

Thanks Goingbush, very informative watch, puts on not perspective what was wrong when I had lockers put in the other rig years ago (apart from ****ing the centre’s completely), the wheels would surge as the shaft in the video when driving through soft sand. Didn’t do it when they were rebuilt under warranty
The blokes at Hardy Spicer were very helpful, they said technically it should be rebalanced but as Dazza said, it would be fine to pull apart and put back out of phase but was going to confirm that with one of the specialists at another branch
One of the other fellas from HS asked if the vehicle raised or going to be raised as there is a wide angle version of the shaft, so I have asked them to swap the standard for a WA (I think the wheels in the air action down south is what has put stress on the uni and broke it), not a problem for the change over and to have the new one out of phase
Also asked about a new rear shaft, replacing a FRC2980 with a FRC8389 cheaper than getting the original rebuilt [emoji1531][emoji1531][emoji1531]
I figure 400+k on the originals, can’t hurt to get newbies
All in all I believe I’ve had a win being patient,
I’ll get the right shaft with the right phasing ready for lifted springs,
The kids get to do a few more doughnuts and snakies in the paddocks for another week or so
And I can enjoy a few more beers not having to get under the old girl…….today
(Maybe I might see if I can get under the other “old girl” tonight)[emoji12][emoji12]

[emoji481][emoji481]
Gav

[PhilipA]

(I think the wheels in the air action down south is what has put stress on the uni and broke it)

From the picture it looks to be a typical no grease plus water break seeing the other 3 trunnions look Ok from what I can see..
Regards PhilipA

[Gav 110]

From the picture it looks to be a typical no grease plus water break seeing the other 3 trunnions look Ok from what I can see..
Regards PhilipA

Greased about 20k ago
Edit: 12k ago
I think it lost its grease going through a few mud holes and the 350+km after the shudder started,but I wasn’t under the car when it happened[emoji1531][emoji1531]

[PhilipA]

Greased about 20k ago

Sometimes grease can harden in the drilling in the middle of one trunnion and it gets none or the seal gets damaged and dies.

One of my Double Cardan UJs went on one trunnion , probably from water from the aircon from over 8 years ago when I fitted drain extensions.
BTw, keep the other driveshaft as to me it looks fine. the measure would be if a new UJ trunnion is tight in the bore where the damage was.

Regards PhilipA

[PhilipA]

This entry from Range Rovers Net talks about #38A but I am pretty sure it applied to all earlier Range Rovers.

My 77 had the front shaft at 11oclock or 1 o'clock which was 3splines out.AFAIR

The 77RRC had the same driveshaft as a Defender and very similar chassis and axle layout. It is out of phase because the Transfer output has a greater angle than the axle.


sorry to drag up an old thread but have been experiencing significant harmonic vibration through the body of the vehicle rather than through the steering, which led me to examine the drive shafts. Sure enough on the front drive shaft the rear yoke "leads" the front one by a couple of splines while the rear shaft has the yokes in-line.
I discovered this little "gem" and thuddenly "thor" the light:shock: Prop-Shaft Phase (http://www.csse.monash.edu.au/~lloyd/tildeLand-Rover/LRO/prop.phase.html) it explains that in 1986, LR changed the pitch of the front axle by 12 deg to improve highway stability and therefore had to introduce a mass damper and rephasing of the prop shaft yokes to take account of the harmonics. The poster has also provided info on a 1986 TSB which lays out an extended elimination process for tracing vibration problems...



BTW when I lifted my RRC , I had to push plastic hose over the RH spring coils as it used to sing and vibrate on RH curves.

[Gav 110]

Sometimes grease can harden in the drilling in the middle of one trunnion and it gets none or the seal gets damaged and dies.

One of my Double Cardan UJs went on one trunnion , probably from water from the aircon from over 8 years ago when I fitted drain extensions.
BTw, keep the other driveshaft as to me it looks fine. the measure would be if a new UJ trunnion is tight in the bore where the damage was.

Regards PhilipA

Thanks Phillip

Not knowing the history of the past 35odd years and 340k before me, it’s in my best interest to change the rear shaft as it’s relatively cheap to replace

On the old red rig uni joints were replaced 20 years ago when I got the lockers done and had been greased every tyre rotation and the plan is to change everything over to the new (to me) one when I get a spare 5 minutes (ok maybe 5 weeks) but in the meantime I still need to keep it mobile so I don’t want to strip parts and have it stuck in the dirt

[emoji481][emoji481]
Gav

[spudfan]

This might help.

[Gav 110]

This might help.

Thanks Spudfan

That’s in my workshop manual as well, it doesn’t tell you how far out of alignment to have them but the general consensus is 45 degrees
[emoji481][emoji481]
Gav

[Bagoo76]

Needs to be out of phase.

this might help explain why .


https://youtu.be/gmV4qwLfOMY

fantastic demonstration which helps to understand what’s actually going on
cheers

[Gav 110]

Had a call from HS today, they said that they have had issues with the Wide Angle shaft and no longer produce it, best thing they could offer is a double cardan if I didn’t want the standard shaft
I’m not planning on a huge lift (missus has enough trouble getting in as it is) so Alex if they could rotate one end 45 degrees, no problem, no charge
New rear shaft on the way (stuck at the flooded out hwy) so I’ll wait till it arrives and crawl under the old girl to replace both, unless I get low on work, (highly unlikely) then one of the apprentices will have a job to do[emoji1531][emoji1531]

[emoji481][emoji481]
Gav

[JDNSW]

Preferably supply them with a copy of the workshop manual reference.