D4 and Remap Impacts on crankshaft etc>

[gavinwibrow]

Having finally got some backpay from Centrelink, I'm proposing to have Cambo in Sydney remap the 2016 D4 TDV6 and 8 speed transmission when we head over in March.

Given that I usually drive like a stately nana, but also pull a 3.5t behemoth, am I likely to exacerbate the potential for crank issues with 700Nm?

I would think the transmission remap will smooth out and reduce any likelihood of transmission problems arising.

[Discodicky]

Having finally got some backpay from Centrelink, I'm proposing to have Cambo in Sydney remap the 2016 D4 TDV6 and 8 speed transmission when we head over in March.

Given that I usually drive like a stately nana, but also pull a 3.5t behemoth, am I likely to exacerbate the potential for crank issues with 700Nm?

I would think the transmission remap will smooth out and reduce any likelihood of transmission problems arising.

I've had the engine remap from Cambo and all I can say is.... "do it"!!
I tow a 3.0T van and the engine does it sooo much easier.
I intend getting the auto done with Cambo when I am in Sydney with the car later in the year.
The Engine remap takes it to the spec of the latest 3.0 litre RRS engine, thus is same as LR/RR sent them out from the factory. As LR consider those specs ok for their cars then it goes without saying its ok to take ours to same.

[discorevy]

Given that I usually drive like a stately nana, but also pull a 3.5t behemoth, am I likely to exacerbate the potential for crank issues with 700NM?
While I'm not adverse to remaps as you know, but for this engine towing that weight in hot conditions I'd have to say yes as they are overstressed
If you drive like a nana you may be ok , but it begs the question, why would you need it?

I would think the transmission remap will smooth out and reduce any likelihood of transmission problems arising.
Yes to transmission remap, will improve the shift, but won't stop the potential for the selector fault, the ZF8's are a solid box.
If you need more grunt for towing heavy, you need the TDV8 rangie, or if Centrelink owe you the equivalent of a Caribbean island, then a D4 V8 conversion may suit sir better[biggrin]



I've had the engine remap from Cambo and all I can say is.... "do it"!!
I tow a 3.0T van and the engine does it sooo much easier.
It may feel easier but there's bigger bangs on the crank.

As LR consider those specs ok for their cars then it goes without saying its ok to take ours to same.

​LOL

[Eric SDV6SE]

Not so sure about "bigger bangs on the crank", the torque curve is improved giving you (even) more low down torque for towing, at least that's what my remap gives me, 50000km and no issues,just easy towing. Keep up the engine oil and transmission fluid changes and all will be well.

[gavinwibrow]

Yes to transmission remap, will improve the shift, but won't stop the potential for the selector fault, the ZF8's are a solid box.
If you need more grunt for towing heavy, you need the TDV8 rangie, or if Centrelink owe you the equivalent of a Caribbean island, then a D4 V8 conversion may suit sir better[biggrin]


Actually am pretty happy with the 520? from the standard map in 99% of scenarios, after all I did originally tow with an almost standard D2a.

If the remap doesn't create too much more engine stress or adversely affect economy, then why not for an overall "benefit"?

[discorevy]

Not so sure about "bigger bangs on the crank", the torque curve is improved giving you (even) more low down torque for towing, at least that's what my remap gives me, 50000km and no issues,just easy towing. Keep up the engine oil and transmission fluid changes and all will be well.

Yes, simplistic, but how else would you expect the torque curve to be improved?.
There's a difference between pulling a camper trailer and a 3.5 tonne Caravan through hot and hilly country


Actually am pretty happy with the 520? from the standard map in 99% of scenarios, after all I did originally tow with an almost standard D2a.

If the remap doesn't create too much more engine stress or adversely affect economy, then why not for an overall "benefit"?

Gavin, I had forgotten yours was the 520nm TDV6 so, considering your mechanical sympathy, you'd be fine to go the 600nm of the SDV6. 700nm tends to warp exhaust manifolds with towing heavy and as you know there's a bit more involved than a TD5

[Cambo_oldjaguar]

Well I don't think there's a definitive scientific answer to this question...

On one hand you could take a fatalistic approach, that if a crank is going to break, it is going to break, regardless of what power the motor is making, how many kms on it or how the vehicle is used.
Just yesterday I was informed of a 2016 D4 that broke it's crank with only 40k on the clock, dead stock, no tune, a city vehicle never used for towing... so it's not like it was knackered...

There is an idea however, that the factory tunes are perhaps contributing to the crank problems, because they are tuned primarily to meet an emissions target, not to run as best as they can.
The goal with our tunes is to make the engine run (& the vehicle drive) as nice as possible. That means giving it the fuel it needs (and when) to run efficiently and smoothly, not to hit an emissions target.
I've heard from so many people who got our tune that the engine runs smoother, even the idle is smoother than stock. Smooth running is going to put less vibrations into the crank, less shocks.
Now it's just an idea, I don't know how to prove this. But of all the 3.0's that got our 700Nm tune (and there are hundreds now, not just here but around the world) I'm not aware of any breaking a crank yet.

[gavinwibrow]

Gavin, I had forgotten yours was the 520nm TDV6 so, considering your mechanical sympathy, you'd be fine to go the 600nm of the SDV6. 700nm tends to warp exhaust manifolds with towing heavy and as you know there's a bit more involved than a TD5


g'day Craig. I have a slight suspicion that I might already have the SDV6 remap . The car goes well and was previously owned by a Barbagello manager who was planning to turn it into a tow tug but got sick and sold it off - will find out with Cambo).
If I do go the whole hog, shouldn't I be safe with the manifolds if I use 600 degrees at the EGT sensors as the backoff temp (and maybe up to 650 very short term if needed?)

[discorevy]

Well I don't think there's a definitive scientific answer to this question...

On one hand you could take a fatalistic approach, that if a crank is going to break, it is going to break, regardless of what power the motor is making, how many kms on it or how the vehicle is used.
Just yesterday I was informed of a 2016 D4 that broke it's crank with only 40k on the clock, dead stock, no tune, a city vehicle never used for towing... so it's not like it was knackered...

There is an idea however, that the factory tunes are perhaps contributing to the crank problems, because they are tuned primarily to meet an emissions target, not to run as best as they can.
The goal with our tunes is to make the engine run (& the vehicle drive) as nice as possible. That means giving it the fuel it needs (and when) to run efficiently and smoothly, not to hit an emissions target.
I've heard from so many people who got our tune that the engine runs smoother, even the idle is smoother than stock. Smooth running is going to put less vibrations into the crank, less shocks.
Now it's just an idea, I don't know how to prove this. But of all the 3.0's that got our 700Nm tune (and there are hundreds now, not just here but around the world) I'm not aware of any breaking a crank yet.

Hundreds is good, and have no doubt your tune files are an improvement on factory for smoothness, but of the 3 I've seen personally ( I know it's a small sample ) with spun bearings, 2 were remapped ( not by you ) , all were in the summer, 2 were towing (1 remap, 1 standard tune) also seen 2 with warped manifolds, both remapped as have other workshops and I vaguely remember Justin C saying something similar on here.

Don't get me wrong Cambo, what you do with these beasts is fantastic, and I'm not anti remap, but if making the fuel delivery smoother were to actually save the engine from ****ting itself , it doesn't say much for the engine.
Other manufacturers of the Diesel V6 with it's inherent primary balance deficit use balance shafts and alloy or cast iron blocks to absorb vibes better.

I always feel like the harbinger of death on the D3/D4 section when it comes to The TDV6's, but you just need to take a look at how delicate (and thin) the crank journals are on these along with what they're being asked to haul in hot ambient temps to see potential issues , they are a car engine.... in my opinion of course[bighmmm]



g'day Craig. I have a slight suspicion that I might already have the SDV6 remap . The car goes well and was previously owned by a Barbagello manager who was planning to turn it into a tow tug but got sick and sold it off - will find out with Cambo).
If I do go the whole hog, shouldn't I be safe with the manifolds if I use 600 degrees at the EGT sensors as the backoff temp (and maybe up to 650 very short term if needed?)

Dazza should be able to tell you which version if he takes it for a squirt?.
I reckon you've got a better chance than most of mechanical sympathy Gavin[thumbsupbig]
notwithstanding towing a 3.5 ton parachute of course[biggrin]

[gavinwibrow]

Dazza should be able to tell you which version if he takes it for a squirt?.
I reckon you've got a better chance than most of mechanical sympathy Gavin[thumbsupbig]
notwithstanding towing a 3.5 ton parachute of course[biggrin]


Funnily enough Dazza agreed that it goes well, but could not say if it was at SDV6 status!

[scarry]

Well I don't think there's a definitive scientific answer to this question...


I dont think there is,but it definitely won't do the engine any favours.

If you want to get it tuned,just do it and dont worry,drive it whatever way you like,and take the chance with it.
The chance of a crankshaft issue is probably very minimal anyway.

I do remember JC saying he has changed quite a few cracked exhaust maniflods on the 3.0L,and they were all tuned,many done by 'Roo systems.

[Discodicky]

Yes, simplistic, but how else would you expect the torque curve to be improved?.
There's a difference between pulling a camper trailer and a 3.5 tonne Caravan through hot and hilly country



Gavin, I had forgotten yours was the 520nm TDV6 so, considering your mechanical sympathy, you'd be fine to go the 600nm of the SDV6. 700nm tends to warp exhaust manifolds with towing heavy and as you know there's a bit more involved than a TD5

Torque has nothing to do with warping exhaust manifolds (and I've not heard of that problem in a D3/4 engine?). High Exhaust gas temps (EGT) will affect pistons and ex manifolds.
As I said, the latest RRS has 700nm torque and no probs that I've heard of.

[scarry]

High Exhaust gas temps (EGT) will affect pistons and ex manifolds.
.

Some tunes increase the EGT's,which caused the issue.

Stock there are no issues.

[Discodicky]

g'day Craig. I have a slight suspicion that I might already have the SDV6 remap . The car goes well and was previously owned by a Barbagello manager who was planning to turn it into a tow tug but got sick and sold it off - will find out with Cambo).
If I do go the whole hog, shouldn't I be safe with the manifolds if I use 600 degrees at the EGT sensors as the backoff temp (and maybe up to 650 very short term if needed?)

650 deg is fine.
It's only if you get up around or over 800 deg for some time that you possibly may expect problems.
At what temp do alloy pistons melt...........
I've seen mine dump trucks up around 900 deg and still survived.

[scarry]

Torque has nothing to do with warping exhaust manifolds (and I've not heard of that problem in a D3/4 engine?). High Exhaust gas temps (EGT) will affect pistons and ex manifolds.
As I said, the latest RRS has 700nm torque and no probs that I've heard of.

Have a look at this,Post 30 is interesting.
There is not much JC doesnt know about LR's.
But tunes are different,some much better than others.
i had my D4 tuned,for 9yrs,never had an issue,had the BAS tune.But it was the 2.7L.
Huge increase in drivability,torque,reduction in lag,etc.

Are the EGR sensors before the Turbo on the 3.0L?

3.0 D4 re maps (https://www.aulro.com/afvb/l319-discovery-3-and-4-a/244740-3-0-d4-re-maps-3.html)

[Discodicky]

Some tunes increase the EGT's,which caused the issue.

Stock there are no issues.

Some of the el cheapo diesel tunes (eg, "chips") simply push in more fuel to increase hp and not taking into account all the myriad of other parameters (throttle position/engine temp/rpm, etc etc).
These are the tunes which will potentially cause engine failures and in particularly high EGT's.
I had one such on my 2004 GXL Cruiser when I bought it in 2007 and removed it due to the risk of engine damage was too high.
Was far too easy to see the EGT's rise unacceptably.

Generally speaking, high EGT's are usually caused by the above (sub standard re-maps/chips) and/or driver negligence. ie, pushing foot through floor at low rpm which is stuffing heaps of unburnt fuel through the engine and due to poor/inefficient combustion, it raises EGT's.

Keep your rpm up, foot NOT thru the floor, and engine efficiency is at optimum. The EGT's will be fine under those circumstances.

[BradC]

650 deg is fine.
It's only if you get up around or over 800 deg for some time that you possibly may expect problems.

I'm assuming these are manifold temperatures. My D3 has the EGT sensor post-turbo and I don't see anywhere near that.

I haven't remaped because the gearbox is only rated at 445NM and it has a ****y little clutch, let alone fear of doing another crank.

[josh.huber]

Just another angle Gavin, it might have a tune already, but it might not be the one that you want, it might be wise to just get cambos tune just so you actually know what you have.

A smoother running engine will help the crank last in all cases, there was a guy on here chasing an engine misfire which turned into a snapped crank!

[scarry]

I'm assuming these are manifold temperatures. My D3 has the EGT sensor post-turbo and I don't see anywhere near that.

That is why i was asking,does anyone know for sure?

I watch the EGT's,and other Temps on a readout on our LC,and i am yet to see them over 490 degrees.Most of the time they sit around 300 to 350 depending on ambients,load,etc,etc.They can rise quickly once a large hill comes along.Even in soft sand,Low Range on Fraser,35 ambient,they didnt go over 480 degrees.
They are situated post turbo,just in front of DPF's.

i recon before the turbo is probably better as the reading is more accurate,and its the exact reading.

[BradC]

That is why i was asking,does anyone know for sure?

I watch the EGT's,and other Temps on a readout on our LC,and i am yet to see them over 490 degrees.Most of the time they sit around 300 to 350 depending on ambients,load,etc,etc.They can rise quickly once a large hill comes along.Even in soft sand,Low Range on Fraser,35 ambient,they didnt go over 480 degrees.
They are situated post turbo,just in front of DPF's.

i recon before the turbo is probably better as the reading is more accurate,and its the exact reading.

I expect it's far more accurate, but as the sensor on my D3 is post turbo and pre-cat I just use that. I have had a couple of times we've hit 500C working the car far harder than any reasonable person should while dragging the van up a long steep hill, but I keep a weather eye on it and back off a bit as it gets up there.

[Discodicky]

I'm assuming these are manifold temperatures. My D3 has the EGT sensor post-turbo and I don't see anywhere near that.

I haven't remaped because the gearbox is only rated at 445NM and it has a ****y little clutch, let alone fear of doing another crank.

In my experience, 400-450 is a common number with many diesel engines in "passenger vehicles/4WD's"
About 4 yrs ago I bought a new Isuzu MUX which was showing around 450 deg when towing the 3.0T van.
I could get it up by not using the auto gears and making it slog rather than rev, but still a struggle to get it much over 600 deg.
Incidentally, that had a turbocharger failure at 20,000 klms and a subsequent recall on them I believe.

[discorevy]

Torque has nothing to do with warping exhaust manifolds (and I've not heard of that problem in a D3/4 engine?). High Exhaust gas temps (EGT) will affect pistons and ex manifolds.
As I said, the latest RRS has 700nm torque and no probs that I've heard of.

Why would you hear of any problems, are you in the industry ?, I'm guessing you're not a mech judging by your response in the tapping noise thread

( "Quote ").
To me, it sounds like it's half engine speed which will make it at the top end. Noisy lifter, lazy tensioner, etc.
I'd check oil pressure if possible, but add some engine oil flush, (Penrite or Wynns are excellent), flush oil, change oil & filter, also cutting filter to examine for debris but I doubt you'll find any
("end quote" )

My reference to the 700nm tune was from a company that were known to cause warping of ex manifolds due to high egt, known and heard of by myself and others I've spoken to that actually work on these.



In my experience, 400-450 is a common number with many diesel engines in "passenger vehicles/4WD's"
About 4 yrs ago I bought a new Isuzu MUX which was showing around 450 deg when towing the 3.0T van.


Aside from the fact that Brad was referring to the number in NM that his gearbox could handle, not egt's , the 400-450 you refer to is meaningless without knowing loads, revs, throttle position, ambient temps, stock map or not, fixed vane or VGT ( big difference at cruise speeds) along with position of EGT sensor, which for those that asked are post turbo on the 3.0 l, along with other parameters.

I'll give you my opinion by pm next time Gavin [tonguewink]

[gavinwibrow]

I'll give you my opinion by pm next time Gavin [tonguewink]

No, as one of the gurus here, you should continue to enlighten us all please. We can filter out those who are not so experienced (albeit usually well meaning).
Cheers mate.

[DiscoDB]

Funnily enough Dazza agreed that it goes well, but could not say if it was at SDV6 status!

Simplest way to know if you have the stock 520Nm or have a remap giving you 600Nm is to just time 0-100kph in S mode.

If you have the standard tune you will take 11s. If you have 600Nm, then it will be just over 9s. 700Nm will be around 8s. The difference is more than enough to be able to measure.

Good thing testing this is you can’t be accused of being a hoon either.

I personally would not remap to 700Nm, this is already a vulnerable engine and pushing it to its limit can not help.

BUT - one theory is it is the flexing that happens under load at high revs that causes the 3.0 to snap the crank. So a remap that gives more bottom end torque at low revs can theoretically help if it means you can avoid using high revs. Sitting on revs at or above 3000rpm is when the crankshaft will flex more and so should be avoided when under full load.

There is always a counter argument, dropping down a gear and kicking up the revs also takes load off the engine and means you can back the throttle off which is also good for reliability.

Good to remember the crank is essentially the same strength as the crank that went into the 2.7 with only 440Nm. Runs the same bearings and has the same web thickness. Some would argue it is weaker than the 2.7 crankshaft due to the increased stroke length which puts more load on the crank webs. Going to 600Nm was already a big increase.

Good thing about your driving style Gavin is I know you have a lot of mechanical sympathy.

[PerthDisco]

Interesting in the latest LRTime video he stressed never never ever ever tune these engines especially the 3.0 which is only a poofteenth larger capacity and already significantly more powerful.

[DiscoJeffster]

Interesting in the latest LRTime video he stressed never never ever ever tune these engines especially the 3.0 which is only a poofteenth larger capacity and already significantly more powerful.

Because it’s on YouTube by “some guy” it’s fact? While he’s entertaining and not a fool, he has produced nothing factual or empirical to substantiate his feelings and beliefs, which is all they are.

[DiscoDB]

Because it’s on YouTube by “some guy” it’s fact? While he’s entertaining and not a fool, he has produced nothing factual or empirical to substantiate his feelings and beliefs, which is all they are.

….and how are the discussions on AULRO any different? [emoji41]

[DiscoDB]

The other point to consider Gavin - Ford US re-designed the crankshaft just to handle 600Nm in the Powerstroke version.

They did not consider the original crankshaft designed by Ford Europe as being durable enough to handle the demands being put on it and achieve the engine life they were seeking with the F-150.

In the Power vs Reliability game there is always a trade off.

[PerthDisco]

In Marine Diesels ( CAT, MTU, Cummins) the same engine is offered in different tunes for different markets - Tugs, Ferries, Pleasure Boats. Each assumes a different level of annual use and a different mix of time spent at partial and 100% MCR. Warranties are offered differently on this basis.

The TBO interval for each varies from maybe 18,000 hours down to 2,000 hours so that makes perfect sense to me.

There’s no magic pudding you can take power from out of a given engine. More power = shorter component life.

[DiscoJeffster]

….and how are the discussions on AULRO any different? [emoji41]

They’re not! More people full of **** [emoji6][emoji4]

[Discodicky]

Why would you hear of any problems, are you in the industry ?, I'm guessing you're not a mech judging by your response in the tapping noise thread

( "Quote ").
To me, it sounds like it's half engine speed which will make it at the top end. Noisy lifter, lazy tensioner, etc.
I'd check oil pressure if possible, but add some engine oil flush, (Penrite or Wynns are excellent), flush oil, change oil & filter, also cutting filter to examine for debris but I doubt you'll find any
("end quote" )

My reference to the 700nm tune was from a company that were known to cause warping of ex manifolds due to high egt, known and heard of by myself and others I've spoken to that actually work on these.




Aside from the fact that Brad was referring to the number in NM that his gearbox could handle, not egt's , the 400-450 you refer to is meaningless without knowing loads, revs, throttle position, ambient temps, stock map or not, fixed vane or VGT ( big difference at cruise speeds) along with position of EGT sensor, which for those that asked are post turbo on the 3.0 l, along with other parameters.

I'll give you my opinion by pm next time Gavin [tonguewink]



My, you ARE a bundle of joy. I was referring to Brad's post (#20) where he refers to 500 deg, or couldn't you read that far back?

You are correct, I am not a mechanic. Well, not any more as I'm 73 and retired.

But have the qualifications as Petrol and Diesel Mechanic.

FYI, way back in the '70's I was serviced trained on Jaguar/Rover/Range Rover/Land Rover by British Leyland (Aus/NSW). And was the senior mech at the Hobart dealer. Went on to run my own w/shop employing 4 mechs and servicing more British cars than the local dealer.

Eventually sold that business along with the 2 Service Stations I had in Hobart.

Last 30 yrs prior retirement was as senior Product Support Mngr for the largest Earthmoving machinery distributor in Tasmania.

Currently I am a good friend of one of the senior Jaguar/Range Rover/Land Rover mechanics at the local Hobart Dealer, and he tells me they have no knowledge of exhaust manifold warping problems to the R/Rovers or L/Rovers. It would appear this problem only occurs on certain engines which have been "chipped" by some spurious chippers. Hence the reason why I "dared" to say that I have not heard of the warpage problem. I was referring to stock vehicles. I think that many of us know who the spurious chippers are..........

....and I must apologise to you, I did think it was at half engine speed, but must confess that at my age my hearing is not so good these days. It certainly did not sound like the typical run big end. Had it shown the consistent typical big end knock, then I guess we all would have jumped onto the problem far sooner.

You are obviously a highly competent mechanic with vast experience on these vehicles.

Sorry to disagree, but an EGT of 450 degrees is 450 degrees full stop, regardless of all the parameters you mention. Are you trying to say that hypothetically 1,000 deg EGT is meaningless and nothing to worry about unless you know all the parameters? [bigwhistle]

[discorevy]

My, you ARE a bundle of joy. I was referring to Brad's post (#20) where he refers to 500 deg, or couldn't you read that far back?

You are correct, I am not a mechanic. Well, not any more as I'm 73 and retired.

But have the qualifications as Petrol and Diesel Mechanic.

FYI, way back in the '70's I was serviced trained on Jaguar/Rover/Range Rover/Land Rover by British Leyland (Aus/NSW). And was the senior mech at the Hobart dealer. Went on to run my own w/shop employing 4 mechs and servicing more British cars than the local dealer.

Eventually sold that business along with the 2 Service Stations I had in Hobart.

Last 30 yrs prior retirement was as senior Product Support Mngr for the largest Earthmoving machinery distributor in Tasmania.

Currently I am a good friend of one of the senior Jaguar/Range Rover/Land Rover mechanics at the local Hobart Dealer, and he tells me they have no knowledge of exhaust manifold warping problems to the R/Rovers or L/Rovers. It would appear this problem only occurs on certain engines which have been "chipped" by some spurious chippers. Hence the reason why I "dared" to say that I have not heard of the warpage problem. I was referring to stock vehicles. I think that many of us know who the spurious chippers are..........

....and I must apologise to you, I did think it was at half engine speed, but must confess that at my age my hearing is not so good these days. It certainly did not sound like the typical run big end. Had it shown the consistent typical big end knock, then I guess we all would have jumped onto the problem far sooner.

You are obviously a highly competent mechanic with vast experience on these vehicles.

Sorry to disagree, but an EGT of 450 degrees is 450 degrees full stop, regardless of all the parameters you mention. Are you trying to say that hypothetically 1,000 deg EGT is meaningless and nothing to worry about unless you know all the parameters? [bigwhistle]

There's a reply your great uncle Jekyll would have been proud of[bighmmm]

I can maybe remember back only just far enough to wonder why you would quote post #21 instead of post #20

British Leyland...[bigsmile]

Don't reckon I'm that different to a lot of folk who try to give advice based on a fair whack of experience and get consistently contradicted ( once or twice ok, especially if I'm wrong ) , prod too many times and expect to get called out. No different if you were standing in front of me.
As for 450 degrees being a common temp with diesel engines in cars and 4wd...still meaningless without perspective and I never mentioned anything about 1000 degrees.
I know plenty in their 70's who still have enquiring minds and plenty wisdom, I hope if I make it I will emulate that as well... so don't let age define you.

I do, however think life is too short to waste time on this sort of **** so don't mind if I just stick to the tech and humour side of things from now on

[John_D4]

Wondering, is it possible to turn off EGR without any crazy power increases? My TDV6 will tow the 2t camper up the Expressway Hill at over 100kmh. That’s plenty of power for me, plus I drive like a nanna at only the speed limit.

Or is a remap my only solution?

[PerthDisco]

Wondering, is it possible to turn off EGR without any crazy power increases? My TDV6 will tow the 2t camper up the Expressway Hill at over 100kmh. That’s plenty of power for me, plus I drive like a nanna at only the speed limit.

Or is a remap my only solution?

Yes, I bought the 2.7 TDV6 EGR delete only from BAS. The tune is a seperate additional product.

You need a GAP Tool to apply it.