Clutch failure within a few days of being installed (Holden 202 engine)

[Harro_9]

Hi guys,

So I recently finished my complete rebuild of a Series 2a with a Holden red 202 in it (and holden clutch/pressure plate). I got it registered and drove it for a few days before the Clutch just completely died, I couldnt push the pedal in other than the smal;l amount of free play. I read a few other threads and it seemed like it might have been a clutch fork or similar issue, so I pulled the gearbox back out, had a look at the clutch fork and it seemed to be operating completely fine, could slide back and forth easily etc. I also checked the Slave Cylinder (pressing on the pedal with it unattached) and that seemed to be working too, or at least the part that pushes the push rod was moving. So i took the clutch pressure plate off and reinstalled it thinking I may have done something wrong there. After I reinstalled it I am still getting the same issue, any recommendations on what to try next? I have been thinking maybe its just a faulty Clutch assembly but I dont want to buy a whole new one if thats not the issue.

Thankyou!

[ramblingboy42]

sounds like another recent series rebuild on here , he had no end of trouble getting it right

I cant think of his name , maybe someone can enlighten.....

[1950landy]

If you take the pressure plate & Clutch plate to a clutch specialist they will be able to test it for you .

[goingbush]

some photos would be helpful,
i"ll put my money on it being a hydraulic issue ,
before you disassembled did you release the bleed nipple on slave cyl and try to push clutch pedal ?

[JDNSW]

I agree. First suspect, blocked hydraulic line, then master cylinder. Is it the 2a setup or does it have a Series 3 box, your comment about the fork suggest it could be?

[Harro_9]

i"ll put my money on it being a hydraulic issue ,
before you disassembled did you release the bleed nipple on slave cyl and try to push clutch pedal ?

Hey goingbush,
Yes I did try that one, when i released the bleed nipple the pedal was able to go to the floor easily. I believe that means that the issue is after the slave cylinder, is that correct?

[Harro_9]

Is it the 2a setup or does it have a Series 3 box, your comment about the fork suggest it could be?

Hi JNSW,
Yes sorry I forgot to mention that, it is a very late series 2a so has the series 3 gearbox in it not the standard 2a box.

[goingbush]

Hey goingbush,
Yes I did try that one, when i released the bleed nipple the pedal was able to go to the floor easily. I believe that means that the issue is after the slave cylinder, is that correct?

yes, I would have thought that test reduces the chance of fault being hydraulic .

[JDNSW]

If you remove the gear lever support and look through the inspection opening, it is possible you may be able to see what is going on.

[Harro_9]

If you remove the gear lever support and look through the inspection opening, it is possible you may be able to see what is going on.

That was a great idea, can't believe I hadn't thought of it!

I had a look and it appears that the release bearing is relatively tight up against the pressure plate (see pic) and it moves in maybe 5-10mm when i push the pedal down (pedal is able to go in a small amount, maybe 5cm). after the 5 or so cm the pedal wont go in any further and the clutch is still not disengaged. Checked by trying to spin the rear propshaft whilst in gear. I think that all this means that the clutch/pressure plate are faulty and need replacing?
177748

[JDNSW]

The release bearing should be up against the fingers of the pressure plate, or at least very close. This would not prevent you from being able to release the clutch. I don't think I have ever looked at that view, but it looks pretty normal to me except for an excess of grease. It seems from reports to date that something is stopping the mechanism, the slave cylinder piston, the pushrod and the fork from moving.

Before taking the gearbox out again, I think the things to look at are "has the pushrod become dislodged from the forkand up against an immovable part of the bell housing?" or "has the slave cylinder piston seized?". The first of these you may be able to see through this D hole, but both should be able to be checked by removing the slave cylinder, which is a lot easier than removing the gearbox.

Hope this helps.

[Bazzle218]

A long time since ive played with a series but here goes. Did you remove clutch plate and pressure plate ? If yes did you put the clutch plate in the right way. I seem to recall that some clutch plates can be fitted the wrong way around. Baz

[BradC]

That was a great idea, can't believe I hadn't thought of it!

I had a look and it appears that the release bearing is relatively tight up against the pressure plate (see pic) and it moves in maybe 5-10mm when i push the pedal down (pedal is able to go in a small amount, maybe 5cm). after the 5 or so cm the pedal wont go in any further and the clutch is still not disengaged. Checked by trying to spin the rear propshaft whilst in gear. I think that all this means that the clutch/pressure plate are faulty and need replacing?
177748

I've never worked on one of these specific units, but every clutch I've ever worked on has had the fingers protrude out the hole when disengaged except once on a Volvo where the disc had de-laminated and it jammed against the pressure plate and held it in what would normally be the "dis-engaged" position. If that photo is in the idle position it looks like the fingers are already depressed.

Edit : On checking images on the web for Holden 202 clutches, some look like that so maybe that's normal.

[JDNSW]

A long time since ive played with a series but here goes. Did you remove clutch plate and pressure plate ? If yes did you put the clutch plate in the right way. I seem to recall that some clutch plates can be fitted the wrong way around. Baz

I thought of that, but it is incompatible with it initially working normally.

But a damaged driven plate is a possibility.

[sharmy]

Many many years ago I had the same problem with a Holden powered series 111. In my case it was the slave cylinder ( fluid bypassing the internal seal I think ) but not sure.

[sharmy]

I remember the pedal would go hard and not release the clutch, I would then release the pressure by the bleed screw and get a few releases before it went hard again

[davros]

On mine, this is the exact description of what happened when my flexible line had collapsed internally, acting like a valve that was just strong enough to keep the bearing against the springs.
Fluid would flow easily to the slave but not back - so bleeding was easy. Another symptom would be the pedal coming up a bit slower.
Although- the clutch would disengage if this was the case…
Cheers,
Dave

[fredd63]

It seems there is not enough clearance between the master cylinder piston actuating rod and the piston itself.
The following paragraph was copied directly from an online article.

As the piston is pushed back inside the slave cylinder, the hydraulic circuit compensates by pushing fluid from the slave cylinder back into the master cylinder. This also means that when the clutch master cylinder is installed, a very minor amount of clearance is required between the clutch pedal actuation rod and the back of the piston.

This clearance ensures that the master cylinder piston fully retracts when the clutch pedal is released. With the piston fully retracted in the master cylinder bore, this uncovers a transfer port so that hydraulic fluid can return from the circuit back into the reservoir. This allows the slave cylinder to compensate for clutch wear. While simple in operation, you can see how important it is to set the proper piston actuator rod clearance when installing the system.

[JDNSW]

Yes, that is important - and easily checked - but the symptoms do not seem to fit it.

[davros]

Yes, that is important - and easily checked - but the symptoms do not seem to fit it.
Agreed - it was working at least at the beginning was the statement…

[davros]

How’s it going? This is getting to be like a series that gets dropped at the end of the first one which was leading to a critical question being answered! Save me from the anxiety of waiting! :)

[Harro_9]

I do apologise for disapearing on this! Been a very crazy few months so I didn't get back to where the car is stored to continue working on it for a while... It seems that there were two problems...

The first: As Sharmy suggested, the clutch slave cylinder was broken, with the fluid not returning to the line or something like this, I tested by releasing the pressure from the bleed nipple, the clutch then seemed to work again once or twice before not disengaging again. I replaced the slave cylinder and it was working again!

The second issue, and quite possibly the root cause of the first is that I had, very stupidly, installed the wrong clutch unit, I installed the Holden red 202 clutch but when I went back and checked the old one it was clearly a Series clutch (with the boss in the middle). So when I re-attached the gearbox the clutch was still not 100% disengaging, i believe because of the different throw distance required...

I ordered a 9.5" clutch from paddocks that SEEMED like it would match from the pictures etc, but that doesnt line up with the holes when comparing it to the old one. I am at a bit of a loss here, from what i can see from the photos online, the 9.5" clutch (and the diesal which i think is also 9.5") is the type with the boss in the middle for the clutch release bearing, which is similar in appearance to what I pulled out of the car at the beggining of the restoration. The 9" petrol version appears to have 3 'arms' rather than the conventional many arms that point to the centre (pressure plate). Because this is bit of a mismatch car (series 2a, Holden engine, Series 3 gearbox) I am completely lost on what is the right clutch to buy...

179096

[drfish]

I think it is the gearbox that dictates what clutch is required, unless other changes have been made (such as the bell housing). This would mean a Series 3 clutch is required for a unadulterated Series 3 box, which is neither of the options you have photographed (both are Series 2a clutches). Cheers, Matt


I do apologise for disapearing on this! Been a very crazy few months so I didn't get back to where the car is stored to continue working on it for a while... It seems that there were two problems...

The first: As Sharmy suggested, the clutch slave cylinder was broken, with the fluid not returning to the line or something like this, I tested by releasing the pressure from the bleed nipple, the clutch then seemed to work again once or twice before not disengaging again. I replaced the slave cylinder and it was working again!

The second issue, and quite possibly the root cause of the first is that I had, very stupidly, installed the wrong clutch unit, I installed the Holden red 202 clutch but when I went back and checked the old one it was clearly a Series clutch (with the boss in the middle). So when I re-attached the gearbox the clutch was still not 100% disengaging, i believe because of the different throw distance required...

I ordered a 9.5" clutch from paddocks that SEEMED like it would match from the pictures etc, but that doesnt line up with the holes when comparing it to the old one. I am at a bit of a loss here, from what i can see from the photos online, the 9.5" clutch (and the diesal which i think is also 9.5") is the type with the boss in the middle for the clutch release bearing, which is similar in appearance to what I pulled out of the car at the beggining of the restoration. The 9" petrol version appears to have 3 'arms' rather than the conventional many arms that point to the centre (pressure plate). Because this is bit of a mismatch car (series 2a, Holden engine, Series 3 gearbox) I am completely lost on what is the right clutch to buy...

179096

[Harro_9]

I think it is the gearbox that dictates what clutch is required, unless other changes have been made (such as the bell housing). This would mean a Series 3 clutch is required for a unadulterated Series 3 box, which is neither of the options you have photographed (both are Series 2a clutches). Cheers, Matt

Sorry I should have mentioned, the bell housing has also been modified in order to attached to the Holden engine. The flywheel has threaded holes both for a Holden clutch (somehwat how I made that mistake) and additional holes for a land rover clutch. In the pictures I have seen the series 3 clutch does not seem to have the boss in the middle of the diaphram which makes me think it isnt a series 3 clutch I need.

Thanks,
Luke

[drfish]

Do you mean the flywheel housing is modified, rather than the bell housing - the flywheel housing is the part that does the “adapting” between a Holden engine and a Series gearbox. I pulled a 186 off a Series 3 gearbox (formerly 2.25P) last week and it was definitely a Series 3 clutch plate, with no boss


Sorry I should have mentioned, the bell housing has also been modified in order to attached to the Holden engine. The flywheel has threaded holes both for a Holden clutch (somehwat how I made that mistake) and additional holes for a land rover clutch. In the pictures I have seen the series 3 clutch does not seem to have the boss in the middle of the diaphram which makes me think it isnt a series 3 clutch I need.

Thanks,
Luke