Winches and wire cables - Help

[travelrover]

Hi team

I have an el cheapo Super&^%$p 'no names' winch (which looks suspiciously like a Ridge Ryder) on my 300Tdi Defender. This is my project vehicle so lots of work in progress activities going on. Those include fitting a deep cycle battery and charge splitter of some sort. So the winch has never been used.

Anyway, this vehicle is now completely bogged to the diffs in very very soft ground, a result of 500mm of rain on already soaking ground (and heavy rain forecast for the next ten days). I have tried numerous approaches to get it out but the ground is just too soft, the more you dig the more it turns to the consistency of porridge. We managed to get an excavator bogged trying to get to the Defender to pull it out.

My latest plan was to use an old cranking battery and wire up the winch to this and jumper that battery to the cranking battery in the vehicle to keep some charge up. This has worked well. My problem now is as I said the winch has never been used so never had the cable run out/in properly. I was pulling the cable out on freewheel and there was a banging sound each revolution and on inspection the tail end of the cable (the red end) was flapping around on the drum and whacking the controller sitting above the drum. I had only pulled out about five feet of cable at this stage. Peering at the drum the red painted cable was all over the place so maybe was never run on properly at the manufacture. I really couldn't see any other option but to pull the whole 28 meters off the drum and try and feed it on correctly. Got it off with a lot of jiggling to avoid damaging the unit. The inside end (the red end) has an eye on it like a large electrical connector that would go over a bolt or post. I couldn't see anywhere were this would have connected to the drum, no bolt holes, and my google research has not suggested anything like this either on vehicle mounted winches. I tried unsuccessfully to secure this end tightly to the drum with cable ties until i could get enough rolls on the drum to grip sufficiently. Well the cable ties worked just not the securely bit.

My dilemma is how on earth are you supposed to get a wire cable on the drum in-situ? I am sure it can be done I just cant see how. What is the trick?
Or should I just not waste my time and go for a synthetic cable? What issues will I have spooling that on to the drum?

Oh and there is another Defender, my Td5 bogged behind this one. The winch on that has a dead solenoid but either way the 300Tdi has to be moved first...

Appreciate any guidance!

[RobMichelle]

They normally have a counter sunk screw into the drum maybe it has smeared the head off and the shaft of screw is sitting flush with drum ? Then you would still have to drill it out and start again.
Could you cable tie the lug to the drum to get a start maybe

[RobMichelle]

Sorry just reread ya post I missed the cable tie that you tried, I’d persist with that unles you have a metal self tapper and a tek gun

[Hogarthde]

Perhaps try a clove hitch on the drum, steel wire rope is usually good so stay with it.

[travelrover]

Sorry just reread ya post I missed the cable tie that you tried, I’d persist with that unles you have a metal self tapper and a tek gun

Thanks Rob.

I'll try and have a better look on the drum. that would make a lot of sense, it just very difficult to see in place.

Cheers - Simon

[trout1105]

Dump the steel rope and replace it with synthetic, Much easier to handle than a steel cable especially in your siituation.
The thing about winches is IF you don't check them and use them every now and then (even simply pulling 10 to 15m out and wnding it back up again egery few weeks) they WILL let you down when you really need them.

[travelrover]

Perhaps try a clove hitch on the drum, steel wire rope is usually good so stay with it.

Thanks Hogarthde

Thats a smart idea... not sure there would be enough clearance between the grill/winch but will have a look at that.

Cheers - Simon

[travelrover]

Dump the steel rope and replace it with synthetic, Much easier to handle than a steel cable especially in your siituation.
The thing about winches is IF you don't check them and use them every now and then (even simply pulling 10 to 15m out and wnding it back up again egery few weeks) they WILL let you down when you really need them.

Thanks Trout1105

You are correct of course, they will let you down. This winch wasn't high on the list of things to finish off just now (I bought it as it was on special) but may be the only option to extract the vehicles until the ground dries out sufficiently which will be along time!

The winch on the Td5 is a Warn and I used it only a month ago to remove a tree that had come down but now a solenoid has died.

Cheers - Simon

[trout1105]

I have had a few different winches and the retaing screw is usually just a small bolt with eithef a flat or Phillips head.
The winch relies on a few wraps of rope on the winch to be able to work, pull too much rope off the drum and that piddling little screw will fail every time.
The same applies for a winch that hasn't had the rope wound onto it under tension.

Have you checked to see if that retaining screw is either sheared or simply missing?
If the screw is sheared tie a rolling hitch onto the drum, damn near impossible with steel cable but an easy task with synthetic rope.
If that screw is missing use a tech scew to anchor the end of the rope, easy as with either steel or synthetic.

[V8Ian]

If at all possible, leave the vehicles where they are until the ground is dryer.
My mate's neighbour got a body truck bogged in his driveway, it didn't end well, with multiple 4x4s, a 4x4 wheeled loader and a backhoe, all bogged in the retrieval attempt. Each try resulted in the truck sinking further. It took an eight wheel tractor to remove all the rescue vehicles, then a heavy recovery truck to extract the rigid truck out, when the ground had dried out.
Glad I wasn't footing the bill, or repatriating the driveway.

[trout1105]

If at all possible, leave the vehicles where they are until the ground is dryer.
My mate's neighbour got a body truck bogged in his driveway, it didn't end well, with multiple 4x4s, a 4x4 wheeled loader and a backhoe, all bogged in the retrieval attempt. Each try resulted in the truck sinking further. It took an eight wheel tractor to remove all the rescue vehicles, then a heavy recovery truck to extract the rigid truck out, when the ground had dried out.
Glad I wasn't footing the bill, or repatriating the driveway.

Good advice[thumbsupbig]
Regardless of how good your winch is, dragging nearly 3T of 4WD out of slop is a Big ask.

[NavyDiver]

Hi team

I have an el cheapo Super&^%$p 'no names' winch (which looks suspiciously like a Ridge Ryder) on my 300Tdi Defender. This is my project vehicle so lots of work in progress activities going on. Those include fitting a deep cycle battery and charge splitter of some sort. So the winch has never been used.

Anyway, this vehicle is now completely bogged to the diffs in very very soft ground, a result of 500mm of rain on already soaking ground (and heavy rain forecast for the next ten days). I have tried numerous approaches to get it out but the ground is just too soft, the more you dig the more it turns to the consistency of porridge. We managed to get an excavator bogged trying to get to the Defender to pull it out.

My latest plan was to use an old cranking battery and wire up the winch to this and jumper that battery to the cranking battery in the vehicle to keep some charge up. This has worked well. My problem now is as I said the winch has never been used so never had the cable run out/in properly. I was pulling the cable out on freewheel and there was a banging sound each revolution and on inspection the tail end of the cable (the red end) was flapping around on the drum and whacking the controller sitting above the drum. I had only pulled out about five feet of cable at this stage. Peering at the drum the red painted cable was all over the place so maybe was never run on properly at the manufacture. I really couldn't see any other option but to pull the whole 28 meters off the drum and try and feed it on correctly. Got it off with a lot of jiggling to avoid damaging the unit. The inside end (the red end) has an eye on it like a large electrical connector that would go over a bolt or post. I couldn't see anywhere were this would have connected to the drum, no bolt holes, and my google research has not suggested anything like this either on vehicle mounted winches. I tried unsuccessfully to secure this end tightly to the drum with cable ties until i could get enough rolls on the drum to grip sufficiently. Well the cable ties worked just not the securely bit.

My dilemma is how on earth are you supposed to get a wire cable on the drum in-situ? I am sure it can be done I just cant see how. What is the trick?
Or should I just not waste my time and go for a synthetic cable? What issues will I have spooling that on to the drum?

Oh and there is another Defender, my Td5 bogged behind this one. The winch on that has a dead solenoid but either way the 300Tdi has to be moved first...

Appreciate any guidance!

Whipping on top of a rolling hitch. Wire in a rolling hitch then whipping ( wrapping) with the heaviest fishing line leader or similar. two to three turns on a Drum was almost capable of moving a ship with just a sailor adding the tension to hold it to the drum. That was with rope. Suspect whipping three plus turns of wire just might help lock it in IF you can get several ore turn on the drum before it is under full load?

I fully agree with the dyneema rope which is so good to tie and lock so much better than wire. Good luck.

[travelrover]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220324/0fbb6cf135bf83f77477fc0d1c46fb16.jpg
This is the mess left trying to get the excavator out after it sank. This was nice green pasture a couple of hours before. As you can see it looks like a boiling mud pool in the middle.

[travelrover]

Whipping on top of a rolling hitch. Wire in a rolling hitch then whipping ( wrapping) with the heaviest fishing line leader or similar. two to three turns on a Drum was almost capable of moving a ship with just a sailor adding the tension to hold it to the drum. That was with rope. Suspect whipping three plus turns of wire just might help lock it in IF you can get several ore turn on the drum before it is under full load?

I fully agree with the dyneema rope which is so good to tie and lock so much better than wire. Good luck.

Thanks Navydiver

Do you think the old Telstra draw rope would be would be ok for this? Am sure I have some of that lying around…

[trout1105]

Thats not a bog hole it's a Swamp, You would loose a D10 in that slop.

[NavyDiver]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220324/0fbb6cf135bf83f77477fc0d1c46fb16.jpg
This is the mess left trying to get the excavator out after it sank. This was nice green pasture a couple of hours before. As you can see it looks like a boiling mud pool in the middle.

No Pics - My family bogged a tractor, They got the other one to extract it and bogged it as well. Another bigger one was brought in and bogged it as well. The Biggest was obtained and yep it sank. 2 months later they all drove out. That was 30 plus ago in Western Districts Vic [biggrin]

[travelrover]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220324/345b18a330a2a1106ba9e8ff4565dfdf.jpg
Looking the other way toward the Defenders

[350RRC]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220324/0fbb6cf135bf83f77477fc0d1c46fb16.jpg
This is the mess left trying to get the excavator out after it sank. This was nice green pasture a couple of hours before. As you can see it looks like a boiling mud pool in the middle.

Someone on here posted something similar to that from the US on the toob recently.

Was a real mess after the big mofo excavator got the smaller one out.

Good luck! DL

[PhilipA]

Just a suggestion from experience.
When a car is well and truly stuck in mud, one of the big problems is the suction from the mud.

In this case I have found that you may need 2 methods to remove a stuck vehicle.

An air bag placed under the front of the stuck vehicle will lift the front up enough to start a winch pull, and it will roll over and have to be repositioned under the front at say 1 metre intervals. Ramps could also then be placed under.

I discovered this when the four wheel drive club I was in went to Mudgee where it is "vomit country", a thin layer of topsoil with porridge under it. Every car got bogged and it was an all day job getting them out.
Regards PhilipA

[NavyDiver]

Thanks Navydiver

Do you think the old Telstra draw rope would be would be ok for this? Am sure I have some of that lying around…
It really depends on how much space in in the winch. Whipping is a locking bit only. I wonder also if you put a whole lay on cable on and just held an end if you could lock the first layer one it. Wire is PITA in so many ways. It may slip.

[travelrover]

Just a suggestion from experience.
When a car is well and truly stuck in mud, one of the big problems is the suction from the mud.

In this case I have found that you may need 2 methods to remove a stuck vehicle.

An air bag placed under the front of the stuck vehicle will lift the front up enough to start a winch pull, and it will roll over and have to be repositioned under the front at say 1 metre intervals. Ramps could also then be placed under.

I discovered this when the four wheel drive club I was in went to Mudgee where it is "vomit country", a thin layer of topsoil with porridge under it. Every car got bogged and it was an all day job getting them out.
Regards PhilipA

I managed to get maxtracks under the rear wheels by lifting with an airbag. Maybe I should try at the front once I sort the winch out…

[350RRC]

No Pics - My family bogged a tractor, They got the other one to extract it and bogged it as well. Another bigger one was brought in and bogged it as well. The Biggest was obtained and yep it sank. 2 months later they all drove out. That was 30 plus ago in Western Districts Vic [biggrin]

Would have been about 1960, my maternal grandparents had left their Pyramid Hill property in the care of my Uncle Don, for a trip OS.

He bogged 3 tractors in sequence and they stayed in situ for months till it dried out.

DL

[windsock]

If the electric winch is causing problems beyond just getting the rope on, would it help to hire/borrow/buy a hand winch like a turfor. You appear to have enough trees about to anchor to, to exert a pull force from off-vehicle. In a similar situation once, the vehicle electrics constantly running low was an additional curse/source of stress alongside the terrain I was stuck in. Kept on draining the battery on the winch and once I had an external source of pull, it took a lot of stress out of the situation when each small movement was a source of satisfaction.

[Saitch]

In no way am I suggesting you try this, but years ago when I had a very stuck 4wd, I attached a rope to a large tree, which could be felled in a suitable direction, leaving a bit of slack in the rope and then proceeded to drop the tree. The vehicle moved enough to then fully recover.
The slack in the rope let the tree gather momentum.

[travelrover]

If the electric winch is causing problems beyond just getting the rope on, would it help to hire/borrow/buy a hand winch like a turfor. You appear to have enough trees about to anchor to, to exert a pull force from off-vehicle. In a similar situation once, the vehicle electrics constantly running low was an additional curse/source of stress alongside the terrain I was stuck in. Kept on draining the battery on the winch and once I had an external source of pull, it took a lot of stress out of the situation when each small movement was a source of satisfaction.

Hi Windsock

I have been using a high lift jack (with the appropriate fittings) as a manual winch off one of the trees but it is unable to move the vehicle even after adding a 2 meter length of gal pipe for leverage. So much tension on it now I can’t get it lower, ie reduce the tension. Depending on the forecast rain and even if I can get some sort of cable on the winch I need to get some timber under the wheels to overcome the suction and the diffs stuck in the mud. There are plenty of saplings that they used to get the excavators out so I just need to chop some of those to length.

Cheers - Simon

[travelrover]

In no way am I suggesting you try this, but years ago when I had a very stuck 4wd, I attached a rope to a large tree, which could be felled in a suitable direction, leaving a bit of slack in the rope and then proceeded to drop the tree. The vehicle moved enough to then fully recover.
The slack in the rope let the tree gather momentum.

Hi Saitch, there’s some lateral thinking!

[Saitch]

If you're stuck as bad as you say, don't go losing the vehicles' undercarriage. It can happen, with too much tension.

[PhilipA]

If you're stuck as bad as you say, don't go losing the vehicles' undercarriage. It can happen, with too much tension.
Actually it is better to pull on the axle as that is the stuck part than it is on the body/chassis.
A company a while ago was selling wire loops which attached to each side of the axle to attach a bridle to.
Virtually nobody uses this method, although it is the most sensible way . The problem is getting under hence the loops reaching forward to the bumper.
Regards PhilipA

[V8Ian]

In no way am I suggesting you try this, but years ago when I had a very stuck 4wd, I attached a rope to a large tree, which could be felled in a suitable direction, leaving a bit of slack in the rope and then proceeded to drop the tree. The vehicle moved enough to then fully recover.
The slack in the rope let the tree gather momentum.
Thus we have the Nullarbor Plain. [bigwhistle]

[windsock]

Hi Windsock

I have been using a high lift jack (with the appropriate fittings) as a manual winch off one of the trees but it is unable to move the vehicle even after adding a 2 meter length of gal pipe for leverage. So much tension on it now I can’t get it lower, ie reduce the tension. Depending on the forecast rain and even if I can get some sort of cable on the winch I need to get some timber under the wheels to overcome the suction and the diffs stuck in the mud. There are plenty of saplings that they used to get the excavators out so I just need to chop some of those to length.

Cheers - Simon

Wow, that is full-on stuck. No half measures taken ... [bigsad]

All the best with the winch rope and be careful.

[Don 130]

Hi Windsock

I have been using a high lift jack (with the appropriate fittings) as a manual winch off one of the trees but it is unable to move the vehicle even after adding a 2 meter length of gal pipe for leverage. So much tension on it now I can’t get it lower, ie reduce the tension. Depending on the forecast rain and even if I can get some sort of cable on the winch I need to get some timber under the wheels to overcome the suction and the diffs stuck in the mud. There are plenty of saplings that they used to get the excavators out so I just need to chop some of those to length.

Cheers - Simon

You can increase the capacity of the jack by using a snatch block, but as has been mentioned, don't pull the ute apart by attaching to the body. Attach to each side of the most bogged axle.
Don.

[travelrover]

After a lot of mucking around I could not get the wire cable connected to the lug on the drum so I replaced with a synthetic rope which is so much easier to use. Rigging this up via a snatch block I was able to move forward a little enabling me to remove the high lift jack, chains and tree protectors that I was trying to use as a hand winch.

With that out of the way I winched forward out of the hole I was in and then drove about 20 meters to level ground at which point I had to stop to wind in the winch cable and remove snatch block and tree protector and we promptly sank into the very wet grass. Had about another 300mms of rain since I last down here on the weekend.

I need to turn this vehicle around so I can winch out the other one out and then get them both across the paddock up another steep track to the shed! Don’t think that is going to happen until we get some more sunshine [emoji3508] and a little less rain.

But at least there is progress.

[trout1105]

After a lot of mucking around I could not get the wire cable connected to the lug on the drum so I replaced with a synthetic rope which is so much easier to use. Rigging this up via a snatch block I was able to move forward a little enabling me to remove the high lift jack, chains and tree protectors that I was trying to use as a hand winch.

With that out of the way I winched forward out of the hole I was in and then drove about 20 meters to level ground at which point I had to stop to wind in the winch cable and remove snatch block and tree protector and we promptly sank into the very wet grass. Had about another 300mms of rain since I last down here on the weekend.

I need to turn this vehicle around so I can winch out the other one out and then get them both across the paddock up another steep track to the shed! Don’t think that is going to happen until we get some more sunshine [emoji3508] and a little less rain.

But at least there is progress.

Try using more than one snatch block [thumbsupbig]
The recovery will be slower But you will end up with more pulling power using 2 or even 3 snatch blocks in the pull instead of only 1 .

[travelrover]

Try using more than one snatch block [thumbsupbig]
The recovery will be slower But you will end up with more pulling power using 2 or even 3 snatch blocks in the pull instead of only 1 .

Thanks Trout1105, unfortunately I only have one but might be worth a trip to ARB on the weekend.

My biggest problem just now is turning the 300Tdi around so it’s pointing toward the Td5 (which now has a flat battery) so I can attach the winch cable. The ground is very spongy and rain everyday in the forecast for the next 10 days though significantly less than we have had!

[Don 130]

Are you able to jack it up with airbag or high lift and put planks under the wheels to aid the recovery, or are you in a bottomless bog?
Don

[travelrover]

Are you able to jack it up with airbag or high lift and put planks under the wheels to aid the recovery, or are you in a bottomless bog?
Don

Hi Don

I will have a go at getting maxtracks under it on the weekend using the airbag but it just keeps raining! The high lift jack would just disappear into the bog.

[trout1105]

The high lift jack would just disappear into the bog.

Put some rope on the maxtracks otherwise they will dissapear into the mire as well[thumbsupbig]