Query re leather on Discovery 4

[Jpdv]

Question for the team. I note that the better leather care creams/polishes etc distinguish between 'PU leather' and 'traditional leather'. Does anyone know for sure which we have on a 2015 Discovery 4? just wonder if LR use a PU leather for consistency and profit, or whether it's a fully traditional lump of cow. The difference is important for choice of goo...

Thanks!

[BMKal]

As far as I'm aware, the leather in my D4 is genuine, traditional leather - not PU.

[veebs]

Had a quick look through an old D4 brochure, and no mention of PU leather - manufacturers seem to put it in big and bold letters when they use it, for sustainability, vegan friendliness, etc etc. Case and point being the new defender.

I think you're safe to assume its a genuine cow ;)

[Eric SDV6SE]

Mine has lasted 11 years so far and still looks like new, so I'm confident it's genuine cowhide leather.

[Jpdv]

Thanks guys - I shall put some smelly goo on and see how we go. :)

Does anyone have a particular favourite they recommend? I got a 'modern' car focused one that was recommended by a salesman and was distinctly underwhelmed. I may yet go for some saddlesoap or leather care style traditional stuff...

[DiscoJeffster]

The leather on top of the seats is real leather. The sides of the seat are not

[Eric SDV6SE]

Thanks guys - I shall put some smelly goo on and see how we go. :)

Does anyone have a particular favourite they recommend? I got a 'modern' car focused one that was recommended by a salesman and was distinctly underwhelmed. I may yet go for some saddlesoap or leather care style traditional stuff...

Personally I use autoglym leather cleaner and their leather balm

[kelvo]

Thanks guys - I shall put some smelly goo on and see how we go. :)

Does anyone have a particular favourite they recommend? I got a 'modern' car focused one that was recommended by a salesman and was distinctly underwhelmed. I may yet go for some saddlesoap or leather care style traditional stuff...
I use Bowdens Own ‘Leather Love’.

[ytt105]

According to an expert in furniture cleaning, the best one to use is the cheap one from Woolworths.

[scarry]

Fronts of seats are the only leather part,usually including the steering wheel and sometimes top of the gearshift lever.

I use autoglym cleaner and balm as well,seems fine.

What is strange is in handbooks of different brands of vehicles it often says wash with warm water,nothing about conditioning the leather.

Synthetic leather is now used in some vehicles,with the claim it needs less maintenance,last longer,and is more durable.

[BMKal]

Personally I use autoglym leather cleaner and their leather balm

Same here. Great products in my opinion.

[Tombie]

Fronts of seats are the only leather part,usually including the steering wheel and sometimes top of the gearshift lever.

I use autoglym cleaner and balm as well,seems fine.

What is strange is in handbooks of different brands of vehicles it often says wash with warm water,nothing about conditioning the leather.

Synthetic leather is now used in some vehicles,with the claim it needs less maintenance,last longer,and is more durable.

And doesnt upset Vegans [bigwhistle][bigrolf]


I use Bowdens to look after mine... The seat faces are the only real leather (unless you ticked the big $$$ boxes at delivery) and the rest is vinyl

[Jpdv]

Thanks to all for the replies: for reference, just be aware that the Bowden's own is specifically for PU leathers, so is not the best for your seats..(and warns accordingly on the bottle). I'm using a shoe/handbag leather cream in the first instance, which is working a treat...

[The Mighty Range Rover]

A lot of misunderstanding in this thread, let me correct the record for you. The Discovery 3, 4 and most modern vehicles have Polyurethane (PU) coated leather, and need appropriate water based products to clean and protect them.

99.99% of modern automotive leather (modern being post 1980s) has a polyurethane coating applied over the leather hide. This greatly helps in the longevity, look, and durability of the leather. Uncoated leather is quite rare, whether that's aniline or not is another debate, but for an example, it's found as a $50000+ option in a new Bentley, not something you'd find on a 'regular' car.
There is a lot of confusion thanks to companies like Toyota calling things Pleather or PU Leather. These are normally a Vinyl base (not leather hide) and have a polyurethane top coat applied for the benefits mentioned above.

Now for actually caring for your leather.
A large majority of "leather" cleaning products are actually detrimental to the leather with long term use. Alcohol or soap based cleaners will harm the PU Coating with regular, long term use. Balms that contains things like neatsfoot, lanolin, silicone or waxes will only serve to block up the pores in the PU coating and prevent the leather underneath from being able to "breathe". Things like silicone found in the cheaper leather protectants also have the added bonus of damaging the PU coating itself with long term use.

Allow me to put "breathe" into context here. Leather hide will naturally want to absorb and release moisture, depending on the temperature. By blocking the PU coating up with the aformentioned ingredients, you are preventing the leather from being able to absorb moisture, which makes it a lot less pliable (and hard). This is what causes those cracks you see over time, where the leather has dried and is not as pliable and flexible when you sit on it, instead of bending it cracks and creases.

The only safe type of leather cleaners and conditions are those that don't block the PU coating, usually water based ones.

This article gives a great outline of the different cleaners you might encounter and why they are not ideal for PU coated materials.
Cleaning, conditioning and protecting modern leather (https://www.bowdensown.com.au/guides/leather-care-blog)

Hope this helps!

[Jpdv]

A lot of misunderstanding in this thread, let me correct the record for you. The Discovery 3, 4 and most modern vehicles have Polyurethane (PU) coated leather, and need appropriate water based products to clean and protect them.

99.99% of modern automotive leather (modern being post 1980s) has a polyurethane coating applied over the leather hide.

Hmm. I thank you for the contribution, but can you validate this? I've tried to research, and it appears that the general meaning of 'PU leather' is not 'PU coated real leather', but an artificial leather substitute. A couple of links stress that this is actually a selling point for vegan/animal lovers. The link you provide is advertising from Bowden's. It may well be correct, but I would love to be completely clear on what type of seat covering I have - not as a snob thing, but in order to use the most appropriate cleaner/conditioner. I've emailed Landrover, will report back what they say, if anything...

(FWIW, I tend to Tombie's view - I think, based on looking long and hard and rubbing various products in, that the seat squabs (bit you sit on) and possibly the centre of the back, are real. The rest seems plasticy and suspiciously uniform - probably a plastic 'faux leather'. Bowden's products feel wrong and have little effect on the real bits, while a lanolin based leather balm seems to work very well and has reduced creases...)

[The Mighty Range Rover]

Hmm. I thank you for the contribution, but can you validate this? I've tried to research, and it appears that the general meaning of 'PU leather' is not 'PU coated real leather', but an artificial leather substitute. A couple of links stress that this is actually a selling point for vegan/animal lovers. The link you provide is advertising from Bowden's. It may well be correct, but I would love to be completely clear on what type of seat covering I have - not as a snob thing, but in order to use the most appropriate cleaner/conditioner. I've emailed Landrover, will report back what they say, if anything...

PU Leather is a completely different thing from PU coated leather. You can usually tell the different in person by pressing your finger into the seat and then dragging it any direction. Normal leather will leave an impression for a moment, and crease around your finger as you move it. Vinyl (or PU Leather) will usually stay taught around your finger, not leaving an indent once you have moved away, and not creasing.

I'm certain that the leather in the D3/D4/RRS is PU coated leather, but even if it was just PU leather, you will still want to use a cleaner safe and suitable for PU, which means avoiding the types of products that I have mentioned above.

Would be interested to hear what Land Rover have to say, but I've just found this passage in the D3 owners manual.

178093

[The Mighty Range Rover]

(FWIW, I tend to Tombie's view - I think, based on looking long and hard and rubbing various products in, that the seat squabs (bit you sit on) and possibly the centre of the back, are real. The rest seems plasticy and suspiciously uniform - probably a plastic 'faux leather'. Bowden's products feel wrong and have little effect on the real bits, while a lanolin based leather balm seems to work very well and has reduced creases...)

I've used the Bowden's leather care range extensively for the past 5 years of ownership (now up to 240,000KM) and the seats still look near new. From the factory, leather is not shiny, greasy, or slippery. A lot of people will apply a product that makes it look or feel this way, but in my personal opinion it feels like a cheap car dealership has slathered grease all over the seats, or a very sweaty individual has been sitting in the car.

As Land Rover themselves have mentioned, a lot of products might look good in the short term, but long term damage is where the issue is with a product like the one you have been using.

I'd agree, that only the seat faces are actually leather, the rest seems to be stretched vinyl.

[Jpdv]

Yup, its all interesting, but I'd actually disagree with you - that LR 'care' section implies to me that its real leather that needs to be cared for accordingly... I'll report back - I'm now frustrated, and want the 'ground truth' from Land Rover.

[The Mighty Range Rover]

Yup, its all interesting, but I'd actually disagree with you - that LR 'care' section implies to me that its real leather that needs to be cared for accordingly... I'll report back - I'm now frustrated, and want the 'ground truth' from Land Rover.

Agree or disagree, it's polyurethane coated leather. Whether you call that real leather or not is up to you, but it's what you'll find in 99.99% of modern vehicles.

If you really wanted to test the theory, allow a drop of water to dwell on the surface of the leather for 30 seconds and then wipe it away. Uncoated leather will be left with a wet stain. PU coated leather will not.

Good luck.

[Jpdv]

PU coated or not, agree or disagree or not, that link implies 'normal' leather care is appropriate. Likewise, here's an up to date recommendation from a Land Rover main dealer that suggests saddle soap - a very, very traditional leather care product. (That Bowden's specifically warn against...)


AS EASY AS 1, 2, 3, 4

Lightly clean leather seats once a month to keep your Land Rover Discovery interior (https://www.landrovernorthscottsdale.com/land-rover-discovery-interior/) looking good in Scottsdale. Here is how to do a more thorough cleaning 3-4 times per year.


Vacuum: Use an upholstery attachment to get the big stuff.
Clean: Spray leather cleaner or saddle soap on a microfiber cloth and wipe away dirt. If you have perforated leather seats, make sure the cloth is not too damp!
Deep Clean: Spray the cleaner onto a soft-bristled brush and gently scrub the upholstery to loosen excess dirt.
Wipe Dry: Get a new microfiber cloth to wipe of rest of the dirt and moisture from to leather.



(Source: https://www.landrovernorthscottsdale.com/leather-seat-care/ )

My point is, we are all coming at this from personal opinion on 2 fronts:

1. Whether it's real, false, or real and 'coated'.
2. Whether coated or false leather is improved or not by traditional leather care products...

There appears to be at least one US product that works on 'all' combinations - that may be worth a try if one cannot decide exactly what one is sitting on... Specifically recommended for leather and vinyl...

Lexol | Lexol (https://www.lexol.com/)

[Jpdv]

If you really wanted to test the theory, allow a drop of water to dwell on the surface of the leather for 30 seconds and then wipe it away. Uncoated leather will be left with a wet stain. PU coated leather will not.

As an aside, that's nonsense. I'll show you my definitely uncoated but properly cared for leather boots if you want, or my (30 year old) work belt: water can sit on them for 30 minutes and be wiped away without a wet stain. A wet stain after 30 seconds simply means you are not caring for the leather regularly. That's the whole point of dubbin, saddle soap, lanolin and silicone creams/balms and waxes.

[The Mighty Range Rover]

PU coated or not, agree or disagree or not, that link implies 'normal' leather care is appropriate. Likewise, here's an up to date recommendation from a Land Rover main dealer that suggests saddle soap - a very, very traditional leather care product. (That Bowden's specifically warn against...)



(Source: https://www.landrovernorthscottsdale.com/leather-seat-care/ )

My point is, we are all coming at this from personal opinion on 2 fronts:

1. Whether it's real, false, or real and 'coated'.
2. Whether coated or false leather is improved or not by traditional leather care products...

There appears to be at least one US product that works on 'all' combinations - that may be worth a try if one cannot decide exactly what one is sitting on... Specifically recommended for leather and vinyl...

Lexol | Lexol (https://www.lexol.com/)

What are you defining as normal leather in this context? I am defining normal as what you'll find in the majority of vehicles, PU coated leather. Uncoated leather is not common enough to be even relevant in this conversation.

As mentioned in the article I linked, Saddle Soap is even mentioned in a generation of HSV owners manuals, which shows how pervasive the myth is. The pH alone of a saddle soap is enough to tell you that is totally unsuitable for use on leather, not to mention the rest of the harmful waxes and solvents in there. It's designed for saddles, not car seats.

Something that would work on uncoated and coated leather just simply can't exist. It would be like having a fabric cleaner that also works as garden fertilizer, totally different ingredients are needed to care for each surface.

Those are the facts, not my personal opinion.

[DiscoJeffster]

What are you defining as normal leather in this context? I am defining normal as what you'll find in the majority of vehicles, PU coated leather. Uncoated leather is not common enough to be even relevant in this conversation.

As mentioned in the article I linked, Saddle Soap is even mentioned in a generation of HSV owners manuals, which shows how pervasive the myth is. The pH alone of a saddle soap is enough to tell you that is totally unsuitable for use on leather, not to mention the rest of the harmful waxes and solvents in there. It's designed for saddles, not car seats.

Something that would work on uncoated and coated leather just simply can't exist. It would be like having a fabric cleaner that also works as garden fertilizer, totally different ingredients are needed to care for each surface.

Those are the facts, not my personal opinion.

What qualifies you to make these statements? Not a dig but an honest question? Are you a chemist or fabric developer? I mean I can read Bowdens marketing material, or Meguires or whomever else’s, but …..

[Jpdv]

Something that would work on uncoated and coated leather just simply can't exist. It would be like having a fabric cleaner that also works as garden fertilizer, totally different ingredients are needed to care for each surface.

Research before you make definitive statements.... Epsom salts is used as an organic fertiliser, and as a fabric cleaner/conditioner... Similarly, Potassium Nitrate is a fertiliser. It's also in toothpaste, cleaning your teeth. It's also an ingredient in...wait for it... the preservation of leather hides. There's 2 examples straight off the top of my head.

So different applications do not necessarily require 'totally different ingredients'... I'm grateful for your input, but let's wait and see what I get back from LR.

[PerthDisco]

So Disco 3 and all I’ve ever done is regular wipe them down with a damp cloth (water). The seat tops and backs are all perfect for 14 yrs except for the non leather side panel on drivers seat that has a split where it crushes.

No deep cracks or splits all looking good but it’s garaged and not in sun most days.

Less can definitely be more.

[The Mighty Range Rover]

Research before you make definitive statements.... Epsom salts is used as an organic fertiliser, and as a fabric cleaner/conditioner... Similarly, Potassium Nitrate is a fertiliser. It's also in toothpaste, cleaning your teeth. It's also an ingredient in...wait for it... the preservation of leather hides. There's 2 examples straight off the top of my head.

So different applications do not necessarily require 'totally different ingredients'... I'm grateful for your input, but let's wait and see what I get back from LR.

Those were literally the first two things that popped into my head, I'm sure you understand the overall point I was making.

I work in the car care industry testing and developing these kinds of products.

[The Mighty Range Rover]

As an aside, that's nonsense. I'll show you my definitely uncoated but properly cared for leather boots if you want, or my (30 year old) work belt: water can sit on them for 30 minutes and be wiped away without a wet stain. A wet stain after 30 seconds simply means you are not caring for the leather regularly. That's the whole point of dubbin, saddle soap, lanolin and silicone creams/balms and waxes.

We are talking about automotive leather, not workboots or belts.

[josh.huber]

This thread has been great as I'm out of leather care for my car and using the manual I've found out the genuine leather care products from LR are about $50, that's a pretty safe bet. I spent $35 today on a bottle of car wash. So $50 for leather care seems reasonable.
LR023889 is a part number I found.

[josh.huber]

I should add. I used Bowden's recently. I have a crack in my seat (could be coincidence) and where my elbow sits has worn quite quickly. Before this I was Meguiar's only. It seems the Bowden's has softened the top of the door card. I need to test it on another area before I blame them.

Happy with the way they both looked, but the LR sentiment matches my opinion

[kelvo]

It seems the Bowden's has softened the top of the door card. I need to test it on another area before I blame them.

The top of the door cards are vinyl, unless you have the premium leather upgrade. But I have been using Bowdens Leather Love on my vinyl door tops without any issues for the last couple of years.

[Jpdv]

The top of the door cards are vinyl, unless you have the premium leather upgrade. But I have been using Bowdens Leather Love on my vinyl door tops without any issues for the last couple of years.

Yup - a separate issue, but one that has happened with just about every car I've ever owned.... Does anyone know of a 'not awful looking' sacrificial cover/film/adaptor that can sit on the area adjacent to the window, where your elbow ends up resting? I suppose the alternative is to hit up the wreckers and have a spare tucked away ready for the day it gets too worn to be liveable with... I've done a quick google, but other than some rather naff boxes that drop into the handle area to take a mobile phone (that look pretty rubbish to me), I've not found anything obvious. It's one of those areas that really rewards aiming off.