something for you oldies

[incisor]

a mobile phone with real rotary dialer

DIY Rotary Cell Phone Kit with E-Paper, OLED Displays For Sale (https://gizmodo.com/diy-rotary-cell-phone-kit-with-e-paper-oled-displays-1848843721?utm_source=twitter&utm_medium=SocialMarketing&utm_campaign=dlvrit&utm_content=gizmodo)

Gizmodo article that caught my eye on my twitter feed [biggrin]

[BradC]

Build it into an Ericofon Cobra and I'll take three!

[V8Ian]

Build it into an Ericofon Cobra and I'll take three!
The Homicide phone! [biggrin]

[BradC]

Yes. Also the phone we had in the house we lived in when I was born.

[JDNSW]

I was well into adult life before i saw a push button phone, and many of the phones from my childhood did not even have a rotary dial - some you just lifted the phone and waited for a response from the exchange and told the operator the number you wanted (Roma (Q) in the 1960s) or gave the crank on the side a few brisk turns to get the exchange, after listening to make sure nobody else was on the party line (here, 1970s).

[rovers4]

As a youngster I can remember we had two phones - one in the house at the end of the drive, the other was in my dad's workshop at the start of the drive.

The line came to the radio repair workshop first and then on to the house, with a "light" switch beside the one in the workshop to make the change between the two phones.

Both phones were rectangular wooden boxes on the wall, with the microphones on arms and heavy ear-pieces that you held to your ear. No writing shelf.

Our 'number consisted of two digits, the local exchange had about fifty subscibers and two lines to the city. The lady switch operator was only on duty part of the day and ran the P.O. as well.

[Xtreme]

These 'stories' about the evolution of phones reminds me of similar changes in navigation.

Len Beadell used to sit up all night measuring bearings and angles to stars in order to calculate the latitude and longitude of his position.
We now have GPS which gives instant position fixes and more!

[spudfan]

Our house phone on the wall looks like that.

[spudfan]

These 'stories' about the evolution of phones reminds me of similar changes in navigation.

Len Beadell used to sit up all night measuring bearings and angles to stars in order to calculate the latitude and longitude of his position.
We now have GPS which gives instant position fixes and more!
Great respect for Mr Len Beadell. One of a kind.
I remember when GPS was first introduced. I was working as a land surveyor at the time. GPS was initially an American military system. When it was introduced to the public it had a built in error, which was fairly substantial to my mind. This was to stop terrorist and other unsavoury characters using it for nefarious purposes! I could get a more accurate fix using a theodolite than the then extant GPS system. Albeit it took a bit of time and using tables and a hand calculator. I had a Casio FX scientific unit at the time. Anyway the accuracy of the GPS system has much improved over the years with the "safety" error removed.
Anyway this book is great reading..if you like this sort of thing. If you are a budding Len Beadle you will find it highly interesting. If you want to learn about GPS, well you are out of luck as it predates all of that.

[austastar]

Len Beadell used to sit up all night measuring bearings and angles to stars in order to calculate the latitude and longitude of his position.

Hi,
In the museum at Woomera, down the back, is his camping gear and notebook of calculations he needed to make in the field.
Mind bending maths!
Cheers

[Saitch]

Sun obs. and star obs. were still in use 30 odd years ago, in certain circumstances.


I remember booking for one of the surveying students I knew, at Bartleys Hill lookout, in Brissie, mid-winter. It was part of his uni course. The night was freezing, so a bottle of Bundy was packed with the gear. About 5 minutes before commencement time, cloud came in. While we waited for the cloud to dissipate, the Bundy was consumed.
Even though the cloud did clear, the night was abandoned, as the student wouldn't have focused the instrument too well![wink11]

I don't know how Spudfan would have got on with the cold and cloud in his environment? Timing would have been of the essence, I imagine.

[V8Ian]

Is it any wonder you were not invited to lecture on the subject, Saitch? [bigrolf][wink11]

[RANDLOVER]

Great respect for Mr Len Beadell. One of a kind.
I remember when GPS was first introduced. I was working as a land surveyor at the time. GPS was initially an American military system. When it was introduced to the public it had a built in error, which was fairly substantial to my mind. This was to stop terrorist and other unsavoury characters using it for nefarious purposes! I could get a more accurate fix using a theodolite than the then extant GPS system. Albeit it took a bit of time and using tables and a hand calculator. I had a Casio FX scientific unit at the time. Anyway the accuracy of the GPS system has much improved over the years with the "safety" error removed.
Anyway this book is great reading..if you like this sort of thing. If you are a budding Len Beadle you will find it highly interesting. If you want to learn about GPS, well you are out of luck as it predates all of that.

I think the US still "relaxes" the accuracy of GPS in their war zones, and I have heard the theory that they've altered GPS borders to lure terrorists into a different country where a drone strike is less problematic.

[BradC]

I think the US still "relaxes" the accuracy of GPS in their war zones, and I have heard the theory that they've altered GPS borders to lure terrorists into a different country where a drone strike is less problematic.

Unless the GPS system has changed significantly I don't believe that's feasible.

Selective Availability (which was the method whereby Civilian GPS had a broader definition of accuracy) was either on or off. It was switched off for the First Gulf war, then permanently in 2000. It hasn't been turned back on and as of 2007 any satellite deployed doesn't have the capability.

Because of the way the constellation works, there is no ability to alter timing characteristics being directed at certain locations, and having to try and coordinate 8 or more satellites to lie at the same time, but only while passing over a specific geographic region (even if technically possible) would cause timing disturbances that would be globally flagged immediately. Just like the temporary disabling of SA in the first Gulf War. News got around real quick when the boffins all noticed their fixes became more accurate.

[RANDLOVER]

Unless the GPS system has changed significantly I don't believe that's feasible.

Selective Availability (which was the method whereby Civilian GPS had a broader definition of accuracy) was either on or off. It was switched off for the First Gulf war, then permanently in 2000. It hasn't been turned back on and as of 2007 any satellite deployed doesn't have the capability.

Because of the way the constellation works, there is no ability to alter timing characteristics being directed at certain locations, and having to try and coordinate 8 or more satellites to lie at the same time, but only while passing over a specific geographic region (even if technically possible) would cause timing disturbances that would be globally flagged immediately. Just like the temporary disabling of SA in the first Gulf War. News got around real quick when the boffins all noticed their fixes became more accurate.

You're pro'ly right and the outcomes I mentioned are more likely to be done by GPS jamming or spoofing.

GPS Jamming in Ukraine - Space News & Breaking Defense - RNTF (rntfnd.org) (https://rntfnd.org/2022/03/05/gps-jamming-in-ukraine-space-news-breaking-defense/)

[spudfan]

And the reason being.....

[ramblingboy42]

I dont know if mobile phone gps co ordinates are correct yet but they were wrong.

I found this out while working with a marine rescue service and co-ordinates sent to us by boaties needing assistance put us miles out when we responded and put the boaties in risk.

I forget what it is now but before we left base our radio operator usually applied a simple formula to check/correct co-ordinates given from the boaties mobile phone.

I think it was a digital>analogue conversion needed

I still never use one no matter where I go , prefer the Mk11 eyeball and dead reckoning.

[cjc_td5]

I dont know if mobile phone gps co ordinates are correct yet but they were wrong.

I found this out while working with a marine rescue service and co-ordinates sent to us by boaties needing assistance put us miles out when we responded and put the boaties in risk.

I forget what it is now but before we left base our radio operator usually applied a simple formula to check/correct co-ordinates given from the boaties mobile phone.

I think it was a digital>analogue conversion needed

I still never use one no matter where I go , prefer the Mk11 eyeball and dead reckoning.A fair chunk of that probably came from errors or miss communication of decimal or min/sec coordinates, or translating between survey datums (GDA94 etc).

[BradC]

A fair chunk of that probably came from errors or miss communication of decimal or min/sec coordinates, or translating between survey datums (GDA94 etc).

Which is why these days there's a link to allow connecting the GPS to the back of the VHF. Push that emergency Chan 16 button and it'll transmit the current coords as part of the emergency call. Takes one of the weak links out of the comms chain ( an operator under duress).

[350RRC]

A fair chunk of that probably came from errors or miss communication of decimal or min/sec coordinates, or translating between survey datums (GDA94 etc).

Exactly right, was going to post that myself.

DL

[JDNSW]

I think this is the appropriate spot to point out that the mapped coordinates of a point on the earth depends on the spheroid and datum used for the mapping.

If the ones used for the map data are not the same as the one used by the GPS system, the position shown by GPS will be incorrect. Local mapping uses a spheroid and datum such that this mathematical surface corresponds to the equipotential surface as closely as possible for a mathematical model, e.g. Australia typically uses the Australia datum and Clarke 1858 spheroid. GPS, on the other hand, uses a spheroid and datum that tries to match the equipotential surface over the whole earth.

Unless there is a conversion between the two, usually in the GPS receiver or the map supplied to the GPS receiver, there will be a mismatch, which can run into hundreds of metres. And then there are straight mapping errors.

[Saitch]

I think this is the appropriate spot to point out that the mapped coordinates of a point on the earth depends on the spheroid and datum used for the mapping.

If the ones used for the map data are not the same as the one used by the GPS system, the position shown by GPS will be incorrect. Local mapping uses a spheroid and datum such that this mathematical surface corresponds to the equipotential surface as closely as possible for a mathematical model, e.g. Australia typically uses the Australia datum and Clarke 1858 spheroid. GPS, on the other hand, uses a spheroid and datum that tries to match the equipotential surface over the whole earth.

Unless there is a conversion between the two, usually in the GPS receiver or the map supplied to the GPS receiver, there will be a mismatch, which can run into hundreds of metres. And then there are straight mapping errors.

Hence, I'm having trouble pin pointing (For the sake of Qld surveying history) an old Australian Army Trig Station, outside Conondale, in Qld.

I have done a 'Scale Factor' adjustment, but the Co-ords I have for the Station are from the 1940s, so I'm going to rely more on contours, gut feeling and a bit of experience.

I'm just waiting for the weather to clear and a bit of a lower temperature, before heading into the scrub. I must be getting soft! [biggrin]

[Xtreme]

I'm surprised that with all this discussion regarding pin pointing locations that no one has mentioned 'What3Words' - the system that divides the world up into 3m squares and gives each a unique three-word address.
With W3W there are minor problems with homophones, similar sounding words and plurals but it is a lot more simple and less prone to mistakes than defining a location by latitude and longitude with degrees, minutes, seconds, N & S hemispheres plus E or W of the IDL.

Maybe we're all too old for it. :whistling:

[ramblingboy42]

never too old for some DR navigation......

[Xtreme]

never too old for some DR navigation......
Used a bit of that on my first crossing of the Simpson - before GPS was available.
When we hit the French Line at right angles and soon after located one of the BM's placed along the French Line we discovered that we were about 1/2km out after a couple of hundred k's.

[JDNSW]

I'm surprised that with all this discussion regarding pin pointing locations that no one has mentioned 'What3Words' - the system that divides the world up into 3m squares and gives each a unique three-word address.
With W3W there are minor problems with homophones, similar sounding words and plurals but it is a lot more simple and less prone to mistakes than defining a location by latitude and longitude with degrees, minutes, seconds, N & S hemispheres plus E or W of the IDL.

Maybe we're all too old for it. :whistling:

This does nothing to avoid the issue I described above, simply changes how you refer to a location. It does nothing to address the issues of what spheroid and datum are used, merely adds an additional computation layer.

And I am not too sure what the problem with degrees/minutes/seconds is - I am pretty sure I was understanding this by the time I had done basic spherical trigonometry about grade eight.

[Xtreme]

This does nothing to avoid the issue I described above, simply changes how you refer to a location. It does nothing to address the issues of what spheroid and datum are used, merely adds an additional computation layer.

And I am not too sure what the problem with degrees/minutes/seconds is - I am pretty sure I was understanding this by the time I had done basic spherical trigonometry about grade eight.
Agree with you there John but also think that, for the man in the street, the W3W system is a "lot more simple and less prone to mistakes".

Anyway, I'm still surprised that no one has mentioned it yet.

[ChookD2]

I have W3W on my phone. Haven't had a use for it as yet, but if needed is an alternative for location purposes I guess.

[BradC]

I'm surprised that with all this discussion regarding pin pointing locations that no one has mentioned 'What3Words' - the system that divides the world up into 3m squares and gives each a unique three-word address.
With W3W there are minor problems with homophones, similar sounding words and plurals but it is a lot more simple and less prone to mistakes than defining a location by latitude and longitude with degrees, minutes, seconds, N & S hemispheres plus E or W of the IDL.

Maybe we're all too old for it. :whistling:

I've just been and checked.
Neither of the 2 GPS on the boat have it, none of the GPS in the cars have it and my handheld GPS doesn't have it. The automated emergency reporting on the VHFs doesn't have it.

If I need help, I'm likely going to be in a situation where I don't have data, nor time to look up some form of translation from coordinates (which are pretty much universal) to words. It very much sounds like some mobile phone zombie had a thought bubble and saw an opportunity to solve a problem that doesn't really exist. 3 words : Whiskey Tango Foxtrot?

[Xtreme]

I've just been and checked.
Neither of the 2 GPS on the boat have it, none of the GPS in the cars have it and my handheld GPS doesn't have it. The automated emergency reporting on the VHFs doesn't have it.

If I need help, I'm likely going to be in a situation where I don't have data, nor time to look up some form of translation from coordinates (which are pretty much universal) to words. It very much sounds like some mobile phone zombie had a thought bubble and saw an opportunity to solve a problem that doesn't really exist. 3 words : Whiskey Tango Foxtrot?

W3W doesn't need or use a GPS device. All you need is your phone and the what3words app.
Maybe the following will enlighten you regarding how W3W works
How to use what3words in an emergency?


Find the 3 word address for your current location on the free what3words app for iOS and Android. ...
Share your 3 word address over the phone to the call handler.
The emergency service can then coordinate a response directly to the exact location where help is needed.

[BradC]

W3W doesn't need or use a GPS. All you need is your phone and the what3words app.
Maybe the following will enlighten you regarding how W3W works
How to use what3words in an emergency?


Find the 3 word address for your current location on the free what3words app for iOS and Android. ...
Share your 3 word address over the phone to the call handler.
The emergency service can then coordinate a response directly to the exact location where help is needed.



Doesn't use a GPS? Needs a phone (with a GPS). Also needs a third party app.

Use what you're comfortable with I guess.

[Tombie]

Doesn't use a GPS? Needs a phone (with a GPS). Also needs a third party app.

Use what you're comfortable with I guess.

It uses device GPS of course.

However, it’s very simple. And to use GPS coordinates on your phone requires and app to extract the dataset anyway.

What it does achieve is simplicity. Instead of reading a series of numbers from the screen to the operator….

///summoning.quantified.shimmering

would have us saying gday at the local jetty….

[Xtreme]

Thanks for spelling it out so clearly Tombie. :thumbsup:

[windsock]

One of the issues I see with something like W3W is the quality of spelling these days in the wider society, but particularly in the younger age group. [bighmmm] And then there is the peril of the spellchecker/auto-correct hammer.

[trout1105]

I thought that this thread was about something for the "Oldies"?

At least some of us old farts can still use a paper chart/map to plot a course on land and sea and still get exactly where we want to go using dead reckoning and a compass[thumbsupbig]

Most of the younger fishermen today couldn't find thier own bum with both hands without a GPS[bigwhistle]

[Saitch]

It uses device GPS of course.

However, it’s very simple. And to use GPS coordinates on your phone requires and app to extract the dataset anyway.

What it does achieve is simplicity. Instead of reading a series of numbers from the screen to the operator….

///summoning.quantified.shimmering

would have us saying gday at the local jetty….

So Tombie, pardon my ignorance if I'm wrong, but when you state 'Operator', I'm then assuming that you need mobile phone reception.

[trout1105]

So Tombie, pardon my ignorance if I'm wrong, but when you state 'Operator', I'm then assuming that you need mobile phone reception.

Most smart phones and tablets these days have an inbuilt GPS which works without phone reception[thumbsupbig]

[Saitch]

Most smart phones and tablets these days have an inbuilt GPS which works without phone reception[thumbsupbig]

Yes, but they rely on dedicated GPS satellites, which are not used for comms. My question is, how does your phone send your position to an operator?

[trout1105]

Yes, but they rely on dedicated GPS satellites, which are not used for comms. My question is, how does your phone send your position to an operator?

I am pretty sure that when Toomie mentioned "Operator" he meant the person using the phone Not the operator at the telphone exchange[thumbsupbig]

[Saitch]

I am pretty sure that when Toomie mentioned "Operator" he meant the person using the phone Not the operator at the telphone exchange[thumbsupbig]

Thanks, Trout. In 'Operator' I was thinking more Triple 0, S&R or VMR[biggrin]

So, you can navigate with it, such as finding your location and adding waypoints for a course. However, for emergency assistance, you would need phone reception.

[ChookD2]

It uses device GPS of course.

However, it’s very simple. And to use GPS coordinates on your phone requires and app to extract the dataset anyway.

What it does achieve is simplicity. Instead of reading a series of numbers from the screen to the operator….

///summoning.quantified.shimmering

would have us saying gday at the local jetty….

One wrong letter and you are in the middle of nowhere, Turkmenistan.

///summoning.quantifies.shimmering

[Xtreme]

One wrong letter and you are in the middle of nowhere, Turkmenistan.

///summoning.quantifies.shimmering
One different letter and you have a different location - proving that each 3m x 3m square has a unique 3 word identifier.

[ChookD2]

One different letter and you have a different location - proving that each 3m x 3m square has a unique 3 word identifier.

I get that each 3 x 3m square has a unique 3 words. I'm just saying if you are communicating those 3 words over a system with perhaps a dodgy signal and the "operator" hears a word incorrectly, then you can appear to be thousands of kilometres from where you actually are. Nobody wants that in a life threatening situation.

[V8Ian]

I get that each 3 x 3m square has a unique 3 words. I'm just saying if you are communicating those 3 words over a system with perhaps a dodgy signal and the "operator" hears a word incorrectly, then you can appear to be thousands of kilometres from where you actually are. Nobody wants that in a life threatening situation.
I'm sure you're familiar with the phonetic alphabet, Charlie Hotel Oscar Oscar Kilo Delta, figure Too. [wink11]

[ChookD2]

I'm sure you're familiar with the phonetic alphabet, Charlie Hotel Oscar Oscar Kilo Delta, figure Too. [wink11]

I am very familiar with the correct Ratel procedures. Not every one is, I spell Victor, figures 8, I spell India Alpha November. [thumbsupbig]

[Xtreme]

I get that each 3 x 3m square has a unique 3 words. I'm just saying if you are communicating those 3 words over a system with perhaps a dodgy signal and the "operator" hears a word incorrectly, then you can appear to be thousands of kilometres from where you actually are. Nobody wants that in a life threatening situation.
The same could happen if you were relaying your position using lats & longs and you relay an incorrect number.
However, in both cases if the received information placed you "thousands of kilometres from where you actually are" or even in another country as with Tombie's example, then the error would be so obvious that a check would be called for immediately.
I'm not saying that one is better than the other but just pointing out that there is an alternative to the long standing lats & longs.

[Saitch]

The same could happen if you were relaying your position using lats & longs and you relay an incorrect number.
However, in both cases if the received information placed you "thousands of kilometres from where you actually are" or even in another country as with Tombie's example, then the error would be so obvious that a check would be called for immediately.
I'm not saying that one is better than the other but just pointing out that there is an alternative to the long standing lats & longs.

Yep, both are similar in usage.

Now, you can call me 'Old Fashioned', but if I see anything between 10°-30° S and 140°-150° E, then I know it's in Queensland, without the need of an application. Three words are just three words.

I'm sure 'What3Words' has its place in the world and I may even use it from time to time, but for me, co-ords are the go, I reckon. [smilebigeye]

[RANDLOVER]

Hence, I'm having trouble pin pointing (For the sake of Qld surveying history) an old Australian Army Trig Station, outside Conondale, in Qld.

I have done a 'Scale Factor' adjustment, but the Co-ords I have for the Station are from the 1940s, so I'm going to rely more on contours, gut feeling and a bit of experience.

I'm just waiting for the weather to clear and a bit of a lower temperature, before heading into the scrub. I must be getting soft! [biggrin]

Good idea as bad weather can affect the GPS, I have one that lays breadcrumbs and I have seen the track out by a few of hundred metres in bad weather.

[austastar]

Good idea as bad weather can affect the GPS, I have one that lays breadcrumbs and I have seen the track out by a few of hundred metres in bad weather.Hi,
Tree cover, especially if wet, could knock out my older e-trex, but newer ones cope a bit better.
Cheers

[ramblingboy42]

the defence force has used mils, backbearings and resections based on dead reckoning practise , all based on a grid , used by Army , AirForce and Navy.

don't know what a new generation soldier uses or learns, perhaps someone may tell.

[trout1105]

the defence force has used mils, backbearings and resections based on dead reckoning practise , all based on a grid , used by Army , AirForce and Navy.

don't know what a new generation soldier uses or learns, perhaps someone may tell.

I highly doubt that any of that training has ceased.

[Tombie]

I highly doubt that any of that training has ceased.

According to an SAS mate, it still continues. Alongside GPS usage.

[Tins]

According to an SAS mate, it still continues. Alongside GPS usage.

Armies love double redundancies.

[350RRC]

A fair chunk of that probably came from errors or miss communication of decimal or min/sec coordinates, or translating between survey datums (GDA94 etc).

Yep, all of that will do it, even with a purchased GPS. Gotta check the stock settings.

DL