HELP

[JP93]

Hello friends,


I need your opinion.
I had a limited performance issue a few weeks ago.
with DTCs P1247, P0004D which I thought resolved.
But this weekend, it starts again with new DTCs
P2263, P0004D, P0235, P1247.
So I took the RRS to LAND ROVER and the diagnosis would be "Replacement of the 2 turbos" with the invoice being fine.
When do you think ?
Knowing that I erased the codes several times and each time the car runs normally afterwards.
If the turbos are failing it's not all the time?


thank you

[Graeme]

Is this for the 3.0 TDV6 engine?

[JP93]

Yes, SDV6 3.0 70 000 KM (45 000 Miles)

[JP93]

"What do you think"

Regards

[Graeme]

It's unlikely to require both turbos replacing at the same time but more likely that an inlet manifold has developed a crack. With the engine cover removed, can you see any oil residue around the inlet manifolds? The original inlet manifolds crack along edges due to flexing. Later versions are reinforced in the original weaker areas.

[JP93]

The intake manifolds have been checked and show no cracks and no oil splashes.
It's the dealer that wants to change the two turbos andthe flexible hoses and the pressure sensor.

[Graeme]

Can you take the vehicle to a different workshop for a second opinion?

A high pressure smoke test is required to properly test for a cracked manifold.

[JP93]

I see you insist on manifolds, you don't believe in broken turbos

There are no other brand specialists near me

[Graeme]

What driving conditions cause the fault?

[haydent]

The idea of a brand specialist in many situations is just marketing as all cars share the same systems and modes of operation.

Sure there are certainly times when it can help, or maybe even necessary, but not always for everything.

I also agree thats its highly unlikely that both turbos would be at fault at the same time, never say never.

But maybe the dealers logic is its one of them, and if one needs doing the other might not be far off, so do them both...

Looking at you dtc codes, theres even mention of the fuel regulator, see a problem with fuel supply, will product less power, and thus lower boost pressure than expected....

It could be simple as intercooler hose crack, though ud hope that has been checked.

The fact it can work fine after code clear is also very suspicious, possibly the fault is still there, but it takes time for the electronics to either notice it or decide its permanent enough to raise it as a error and or go into limp mode, and show engine light.


Turbos are the sort of thing that if you take the hose off and its still spinning freely and not excessive wobble, and has all its fins, it should still work fine.


It would be interesting to know if which if any codes came back right away after clear if any, though likely the dealer checked this.

I understand you are in a difficult situation, but you should at least ring around other machanics to see if they have any interest in checking it out, theres a fair chance they will have a snap-on or other brand diag tool that will work well enough on LR for investigation.

[JP93]

What driving conditions cause the fault?

For the historical
the first time I had the breakdown, I was driving on the highway at cruise control at 130 Kmh (80 Mph) for around 200 Km (125 Miles) the red triangle and restricted performance appeared
With the Nanocom it gave me DTCs P1247 and P004D.
I got back on the road and it started again after 40 Km (24 Miles) with the same DTCs
I then changed the O-ring of the Y-manifold where there was a slight leak and cleaned the pressure sensor.
I then traveled about 600 Km (370 Miles) without any problem.
This weekend I did 180 Km (110 Miles) and again red triangle and restricted performance, the DTCs are P2263 and P004D.
I erased the DTCs and then left a little annoyed.
So I pressed the right pedal and after 15 Km (10 Miles) again.
3 DTCs appeared P1247, P0235 and P004D which I cleared
I got back on the road gently without forcing the car for the 90 Km (55 Miles) that I had left to do and no engine failure.
The next day I took it to land rover.
I traveled 40 Km (25 Miles) varying the driving to get the triangle but nothing.
Land Rover did its diagnosis with the DTCs that I had noted because it did not trigger them

[JP93]

It would be interesting to know if which if any codes came back right away after clear if any, though likely the dealer checked this.

I understand you are in a difficult situation, but you should at least ring around other machanics to see if they have any interest in checking it out, theres a fair chance they will have a snap-on or other brand diag tool that will work well enough on LR for investigation.

The car is in the provinces at Land Rover so I have to give them an answer if I authorize the repairs or I take it back

[JP93]

Hello,
I was able to discuss with the foreman of LR and he was able to explain his diagnosis to me.
They did not reproduce the DTC and explained to me that the P2263 was linked to the variable system of the primary turbo certainly due to the electric motor that it operates.
For the secondary turbo would have been due to an oil leak between the two bodies of the turbo
How to check this?
So that's why they want to change the two turbos.
I would have liked your opinion on this new information.
thank you

[Graeme]

P2263 can be caused by a vacuum leak, including a vacuum leak at the active engine mounts. The primary turbo's actuator may be sticking but there are lots of other possible causes so changing the turbo may not fix the issue.
If the dealer proposes to remove the body to change the primary turbo then maybe they're keen to change the secondary at the same time.

[JP93]

including a vacuum leak at the active engine mounts.

Thanks Graeme,
I don't see what link you are talking about.
I'm going to pick up the vehicle this weekend and I plan to check certain elements such as the primary turbo's actuator.
Do you have any advice on things to check?

regards

[JP93]

Hello,

I picked up my vehicle on Friday at LR
And of course no engine faults.
I am attaching a video of the TGV actuator.
There is no leak it is WD40
Can you tell me if you think he is moving normally?

Actuator RRS - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=4HsXfdrblqQ)


Thank you

[haydent]

Hi, is that video ur car ? Did you have any work done by LR ?
Oh wd40, i thought it was leak too :)

I recently spent some time helping a friend with his bmw sequential turbo problems, was a combination of vacuum leaks and old electronic vacuum controllers.

A very handy tool was a hand vacuum pump tool, you can use it on all the diaphragm actuators to manually pull vacuum on them and check if they work or not.

You can also use its gauge to check the system for sufficient 'pressure' or leaks by putting a T in at some point and running the engine.

You can also use it to bench test the 'control valves', to see if they behave correctly with appropriate voltage/control signal and vacuum supply.

Im not totally over your engines turbo system, have you found any diagrams online of it ? such to show the control systems for the turbo actuators ?

Are they sequential turbo or one per V bank/side ?

when you say " variable system of the primary turbo certainly due to the electric motor that it operates." what is the electric motor for ?

[Graeme]

The electric reference will be for the solenoid used to control vacuum to the vacuum chamber used to adjust the vane positions. The solenoids can fail but the more common fault seems to be that the vanes themselves get sticky which can often be cured by manually exercising the linkage at the vacuum chamber.
The turbos are sequential. The primary turbo is VVT but the secondary isn't and doesn't have a wastegate, instead having inlet and exhaust isolation valves.

[haydent]

ok, i looked into it a little more, here are you dtc index:
Workshop manual Range Rover Sport 2005-2013 Sec.1 General.pdf - Google Drive (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1y-ikOdj9ZVFgF81kFBYMTzPR2qmuPWu7/view)

General Information - Diagnostic Trouble Code (DTC) Index TDV6 3.0L
Diesel , DTC: Engine Control Module (ECM)

and here are about the turbo:
Workshop manual Range Rover Sport 2013 Sec.3 Powertrain.pdf - Google Drive (https://drive.google.com/file/d/1P045ALbQgZbiyjrqNslgZ1BC3i1_niNc/view)

Fuel Charging and Controls - Turbocharger - TDV6 3.0L Diesel

Intake Air Distribution and Filtering - TDV6 3.0L Diesel

lots of great diagrams and info here, example

178654

178656

[JP93]

Hi,
I traveled today a little more than 350 KM to return home.
I had 5 DTCS on the road, P1247 AND P004D.
I noticed that the DTCS occurred when I was in stabilized speed around 110 km/H.
When I drive at 100 Km/H, no DTCS on 100 Km.
I also used the gearbox to be above 2000 rpm and I had no DTCS
There is no smoke from the exhaust either, no weird noise either.
The DTCS remain in memory but there is no longer any restricted performance after an engine cut of more than 15 minutes
Thanks for the diagrams and your help.
Regards

[haydent]

The turbos are sequential.

In the manual they are called parallel.



P004D
Turbocharger/Supercharger
Boost Control B Circuit
High - No sub type
information

P1247-
00
Turbocharger Boost
Pressure Low - No sub
type information

are there other dtc ? guessing these wouldnt happen together (high and low) maybe one after the other ...

[Graeme]

The 3.6 TDV8 has 2 identical parallel turbos but the 3.0 TDV6 has sequential turbos, with the secondary being a smaller one to fill-in at higher revs and loads.
The non-LR 2.7 TDV6 fitted to Jags has 2 identical parallel turbos.

[haydent]

In the manual they are called parallel.



3.0 TDV6 has sequential turbos,

my bad:


The 3.0L V6 diesel engine uses 2 turbochargers; a fixed vane type (secondary) and a variable vane (primary) type.
The fixed vane turbocharger is fitted to the RH (right-hand) cylinder bank and the variable vane turbocharger is fitted to the LH (left-hand) cylinder bank.

Both turbochargers are used in a parallel sequential turbocharging system which enables the engine to achieve quick throttle response at low engine speeds and efficient use of exhaust gas energy at high engine speeds.

The variable vane turbocharger has an ECM (engine control module) controlled electronic rotary actuator. The rotary actuator adjusts the turbine vanes to optimize the exhaust gas flow and velocity onto the turbine wheel to maintain the required boost pressure.

The parallel sequential turbocharging system comprises the two turbochargers and the ECM. The primary variable nozzle turbine operates through the entire engine speed range but is at its most efficient at engine speeds of up to 2800 rpm. At engine speeds above 2800 rpm under load, the fixed vane secondary turbine comes into operation, with both of the turbochargers now running in a parallel bi-turbo mode.

[JP93]

Hello friends
Here is news of my turbos
I disassembled the two turbos of the RRS this weekend and here is the result in image178800178801
I could see that the variable geometry is difficult to move by hand but there is no movement in the turbines
I will put a youtube link
The secondary has an oil leak between the turbines, certainly due to the return hose


Regards

[Graeme]

Has the secondary turbo drain been changed to the direct to sump version? Originally the drain went via the scavenger pump where the pickup is low on the side of the sump but the revised direct drain attaches part-way up the sump. The original drain causes a built-up of oil in the drain which then escapes through the seals to the inlet side. Your oil leak may be coming from the gasket because oil isn't draining to the sump.

[JP93]

Unfortunately, the drain is the old version.
the car was however revised at LR and they never saw fit to make the modification recommended since 2013
To believe that they do everything so that the damage occurs
I could read that it was necessary to pass to the SSD if the turbos are changed by new ones, do you know a few things about this subject?

[Graeme]

I purchased then fitted the drain to my MY10 3.0 D4. It would be an easy task compared with removing the turbos.

I've never heard of the turbos having to be calibrated so there should be no reason to use SSD or other diagnostic tool if one is replaced.

[JP93]

178820

it may be only if change of the actuator

[JP93]

178880178881178882178883

Hi,
Here is news of my turbos.
The first photo is CHRA of the right turbo which had a leak
The three photos are the left turbo, the expert told me that the part was broken before disassembly but I doubt it.
Both turbos are restored, I'm waiting for the order from LR, part and reassembly next week
Question: How do I run the engine without it starting?
Regards

[Graeme]

If by run you mean to turn it over on the starter then jumper power to the starter solenoid with the ignition off as no injectors will be operated with the ignition off and no feed-back of power from the solenoid because the starter relay won't be energised to close its contacts.