Starting issue

[getLuke]

2004 TD5 D2a

For a couple years, this thing fired up immediately. Every single time.

Now I am waiting 30 seconds for the fuel pump to prime at ignition II, before turning the engine over and it the starts immediately.

Sometimes it needs to wait, sometimes it doesn’t.

Once it’s going, no problem whatsoever.

My thoughts are either fuel pump or injector seals.

Just completed a service including fuel filter with nil change and the oil did not seem to thin or smell like diesel.

Just looking for some troubleshooting hints.

I will be looking to replace the fuel pump as I’ve just done the rocker gasket and hoping I don’t have to do that again if it was the seals haha

[AK83]

Seals are the cheaper ... guess, I suppose ... [bigrolf]

[getLuke]

Seals are the cheaper ... guess, I suppose ... [bigrolf]

Haha. Plus rocker cover gasket, grommets and all that time.

Although, I won’t replace the entire pump and housing assembly.

Land Rover Discovery Defender TD5 Fuel Pump Genuine CONTINENTAL/VDO | eBay (https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/203102219707'mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=705-154756-20017-0&ssspo=2Ll0BbjjTLq&sssrc=2349624&ssuid=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY)

[johnp38]

Fuel Pump Module Assembly for Land Rover Discovery II TD5 2.5L Diesel 1998-2004 6941538365602 | eBay (https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/193657736332)

Been running this since march last year, runs to over 80psi

The one it replaced was a cheapy too which i now have as spare as it wasn't the problem.

No association with them other than as happy chappy customer, I have bought a lot of parts off this mob for various cars and no issues with quality/longevity (yet, touch wood)

[Bohica]

Haha. Plus rocker cover gasket, grommets and all that time.

Although, I won’t replace the entire pump and housing assembly.

Land Rover Discovery Defender TD5 Fuel Pump Genuine CONTINENTAL/VDO | eBay (https://www.ebay.com.au/itm/203102219707'mkcid=16&mkevt=1&mkrid=705-154756-20017-0&ssspo=2Ll0BbjjTLq&sssrc=2349624&ssuid=&widget_ver=artemis&media=COPY)

That's what I put in, Bought it at the same place. I'd avoid the cheaper ones, too many sad stories with them.

[getLuke]

That's what I put in, Bought it at the same place. I'd avoid the cheaper ones, too many sad stories with them.


Awesome to hear. I am more inclined to use genuine where possible.

Any trouble with the remove and refit to the exisiting housing?

[getLuke]

I am now experiencing not being able to hear the pump prime at ignition II and have to cycle the ignition off and on until I hear it prime, then it fires up.

So I expect this issue is more towards the pump being faulty.

However, could the relay be playing up?

Or anything else I could consider?

[Bohica]

Easy enough to swap over the relay.
Changing over the pump? A bit tricky very doable and a lot cheaper!

[PhilipA]

Now I am waiting 30 seconds for the fuel pump to prime at ignition II, before turning the engine over and it the starts immediately.
My experience with injector seals is that after priming it would start on a few cylinders then gradually start to fire on all 5.
Injector seals will not cause diesel in oil, that would be the o rings at the top of the injectors.
Faulty injector seals cause gases to be forced into the fuel return chamber thus adding "air or maybe gas" to the fuel.

You may of course have 2 problems fuel pump and injector seals. If you pull out the pump and the pickup is covered in black gunk, you have bad injector seals as well.
Regards PhilipA

[getLuke]

Easy enough to swap over the relay.
Changing over the pump? A bit tricky very doable and a lot cheaper!

Relay swap didn't make any difference so now the lack of hearing it prime makes me think its the pump itself.

And I would consider myself a beginner at any mechanical level, but happy to give things a crack.

Any hints with the swap? I found this guide that will be useful I think!

TD5 fuel pump maintence and repair tutorial (https://www.aulro.com/afvb/projects-and-tutorials/193980-td5-fuel-pump-maintence-repair-tutorial.html)

Appreciate your help mate!

[getLuke]

My experience with injector seals is that after priming it would start on a few cylinders then gradually start to fire on all 5.
Injector seals will not cause diesel in oil, that would be the o rings at the top of the injectors.
Faulty injector seals cause gases to be forced into the fuel return chamber thus adding "air or maybe gas" to the fuel.

You may of course have 2 problems fuel pump and injector seals. If you pull out the pump and the pickup is covered in black gunk, you have bad injector seals as well.
Regards PhilipA

So I feel now that it is taking cycles of the ignition to start priming, its not the seals.

Although if the seals cause air to get in this is also accommodates my symptoms so you may be right.

I'll change the pump out first and check the pick up and if it is gunky, then i'll go do the seals also.

Thanks bud!

[jwb]

Relay swap didn't make any difference so now the lack of hearing it prime makes me think its the pump itself.

And I would consider myself a beginner at any mechanical level, but happy to give things a crack.

Any hints with the swap? I found this guide that will be useful I think!

TD5 fuel pump maintence and repair tutorial (https://www.aulro.com/afvb/projects-and-tutorials/193980-td5-fuel-pump-maintence-repair-tutorial.html)

Appreciate your help mate!


And another good one www.discovery2.co.uk / TD5 Fuel Pump replacement. (http://www.discovery2.co.uk/fuel_pump.html)

your symptoms sound very much like what I had years ago. The techs started at the pump but eventually fixed it with the injector seals.

[Bohica]

Get or borrow a fuel pressure tester. Or have a look at the flow. I ended up with no flow.

[sierrafery]

You can see by the electric load if the pump is working only on LP, see this : Disco 2 - Check Td5 fuel pump HP | LandyZone - Land Rover Forum (https://www.landyzone.co.uk/land-rover/check-td5-fuel-pump-hp.358086/) , you can try to replace the air bleed valve in the filter head's rear outer port(WJN500110) cos that's another common cause for staring issues, maybe you are lucky, if the plastic bit in it is full of black soot then the copper washers are the big suspects as they let combustion gas into the fuel return rail

[getLuke]

Get or borrow a fuel pressure tester. Or have a look at the flow. I ended up with no flow.

Good point, I'll test that too.

[getLuke]

You can see by the electric load if the pump is working only on LP, see this : Disco 2 - Check Td5 fuel pump HP | LandyZone - Land Rover Forum (https://www.landyzone.co.uk/land-rover/check-td5-fuel-pump-hp.358086/) , you can try to replace the air bleed valve in the filter head's rear outer port(WJN500110) cos that's another common cause for staring issues, maybe you are lucky, if the plastic bit in it is full of black soot then the copper washers are the big suspects as they let combustion gas into the fuel return rail

Cheers mate. I was getting a reading of 22.90 so i'd say thats all good too.

[sierrafery]

Cheers mate. I was getting a reading of 22.90 so i'd say thats all good too.IMO the pump is OK then

[getLuke]

I wonder if it could be the glow plug(s) failing?

This would be consistent with having to wait with the key at ignition II, but this does not explain why the fuel pump is only heard intermittently priming.

Also, as an update, I have tested the fuel pump relay with the nanocom and its heard clicking.

However, the last two days on trying to fire the engine, I can no longer hear the fuel pump? I need to cycle the ignition a random amount of times (sometimes only 2 or 3, or sometimes I am sitting there for 3-4 minutes cycling the ignition to get it to fire up).

The new pump should arrive tomorrow and I'll look to replace the retaining ring also.

Time dependant I may have another update over the course of this week, or worst case on the weekend.
Also, I am giving all these updates so that in the future should someone be reading this they see an outcome. So many forums get to dead ends and you never find out what happened! its like the sequel that never came [bigrolf]

Appreciate all your help.

[getLuke]

IMO the pump is OK then

I trust your judgement mate, but check my response above this one. The pump can only heard priming after multiple cycles of the ignition - would this be consistent with a failing pump?

[sierrafery]

I trust your judgement mate, but check my response above this one. The pump can only heard priming after multiple cycles of the ignition - would this be consistent with a failing pump?You must get to the pump with a multimeter and make sure that it gets power when you turn ignition on and dont hear it to not be an electrical circuit issue or sticking relay, if it gets 12V across the WP and black wires but doesnt run you know for sure that it's faulty but if no power you'll replace it in vain

[getLuke]

You must get to the pump with a multimeter and make sure that it gets power when you turn ignition on and dont hear it to not be an electrical circuit issue or sticking relay, if it gets 12V across the WP and black wires but doesnt run you know for sure that it's faulty but if no power you'll replace it in vain

Pump should arrive tomorrow so will take the carpet up and test before unpacking.

My assumption now is the pump is only working intermittently. I expect I will see power to the pump, but the pump failing.

We shall soon see!

[AK83]

...

My assumption now is the pump is only working intermittently. I expect I will see power to the pump, but the pump failing.

We shall soon see!

I would check as per Sierraferys' advice first. You'll be surprised on LR electrics and how intermittent elec faults occur... you know how rocket and astro scientists talk of multi dimensions and parallel universe theories ... it's primarily due to engineering principles at LR, and that if an easy way has been found to achieve something(mechanical, electrical, etc) LR used those newly discovered methods in a parallel universe and so to us they appear backward/idiotic/moronic/stupid/why!!/etc.

Intermittency of earth connections are a likely cause .. remember that it not only needs a line from power, but it also needs a return path for that power too.

If I were in your situation, I'd have a battery at hand, some jumper leads and remove plug, and hit it with direct power from your at hand battery. Do this a few times to check for pump intermittency.

You could well be right about the pump being the actual issue .. and for sure one day it will. And you have the pump ordered now.
So if you discover that the pump issue may just be a connection issue, you end up prepared for the day when the pump does eventually fail.

[Bohica]

Glow plug problems? On the Sunshine coast? I doubt it. I can't recall seeing the glowplug light on my car and I'm in Melbourne.

[DazzaTD5]

I wonder if it could be the glow plug(s) failing?



A TD5 will quite happily start without glow plugs.
As others have mentioned, the 3 common failing items: pump, pressure regulator, injector seals (do the injector harness while there).

[getLuke]

I would check as per Sierraferys' advice first. You'll be surprised on LR electrics and how intermittent elec faults occur... you know how rocket and astro scientists talk of multi dimensions and parallel universe theories ... it's primarily due to engineering principles at LR, and that if an easy way has been found to achieve something(mechanical, electrical, etc) LR used those newly discovered methods in a parallel universe and so to us they appear backward/idiotic/moronic/stupid/why!!/etc.

Intermittency of earth connections are a likely cause .. remember that it not only needs a line from power, but it also needs a return path for that power too.

If I were in your situation, I'd have a battery at hand, some jumper leads and remove plug, and hit it with direct power from your at hand battery. Do this a few times to check for pump intermittency.

You could well be right about the pump being the actual issue .. and for sure one day it will. And you have the pump ordered now.

So if you discover that the pump issue may just be a connection issue, you end up prepared for the day when the pump does eventually fail.

Haha gold! Just like the position of the oil cartridge [thumbsupbig]

You could be right re the earths. I am astounded on how many earths this thing has! I have recently had a weird intermittent issue with the aux circuit (radio, cigar lighter, wiper) where it would not work, then roughly 10 seconds - 10 minutes of driving, it'll all get power and I have those AUX items working.

Could be related. However I have played and checked all the earths I could find and it seems to have restored itself.. for now.

100% will be checking the multi at the pump soon before installing the pump. I will most likely take the pump out and clean all filters in any case whilst I am there.

When you say:

I'd have a battery at hand, some jumper leads and remove plug, and hit it with direct power from your at hand battery. Do this a few times to check for pump intermittency.

You mean, have a secondary battery (perhaps the wifes car) and have the leads from the negative to the battery to the earth on the pump and then the positive to the power on the pump? Would I need to fuse this at all?

Also, what is 'WP' when sierraferry states "..if it gets 12V across the WP and black wires.."?

Cheers mate!

[getLuke]

Glow plug problems? On the Sunshine coast? I doubt it. I can't recall seeing the glowplug light on my car and I'm in Melbourne.

Good to know. They are fairly cheap so I was considering changing to eliminate in any case.

I do not believe there is a light on the instrument panel for the glow plugs.

[getLuke]

A TD5 will quite happily start without glow plugs.
As others have mentioned, the 3 common failing items: pump, pressure regulator, injector seals (do the injector harness while there).

Great to know, thanks legend.

I'll check the wiring to the pump to see if is the signal to the pump, then i'll test the pump like suggested above. If no avail, I'll get my buddy to test the fuel pressure and go from there.

Ive just rebuild the engine with new head and I am sure new seals and washers were replaced (OEM) (15,000km ago) but they still could fail. Hence why I don't really think its the injector seals/washers.

Could be the regulator still!

Thanks mate!

[onebob]

Good to know. They are fairly cheap so I was considering changing to eliminate in any case.

I do not believe there is a light on the instrument panel for the glow plugs.

Yup, the sure is a light for the glow plugs…
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220510/af7af2dcd41b81d5b3a184666f265744.jpg

[sierrafery]

Also, what is 'WP' when sierraferry states "..if it gets 12V across the WP and black wires.."?

Cheers mate!
WP = white/purple trace, that's how the circuits are coded in the diagrams

178672

as about glow plugs they are more important than it appears, it's good to have them working even if it's not cold in your area and won't affect the starting too much cos they keep the engine cleaner inside, they have a "post heat" operation too after the engine was started to improve the combustion so less carbon deposits in time.

[PhilipA]

as about glow plugs they are more important than it appears, it's good to have them working even if it's not cold in your area and won't affect the starting too much cos they keep the engine cleaner inside, they have a "post heat" operation too after the engine was started to improve the combustion so less carbon deposits in time.

4 out of 5 aint bad. to paraphrase the meatloaf song.

I am somewhat sure that they heat on shutdown also, as there is a big current draw after switch off.

But my light has never come on, except for the usual start up check. Still there is a big draw when ignition is turned on for a few seconds which seem more than just fuel pump as my battery voltage goes from 12.5-7 down to 11.8 or thereabouts for a few seconds. Hard to tell once engine starts as alternator is putting out 14.5.
Regards PhilipA

[Bohica]

Good to know. They are fairly cheap so I was considering changing to eliminate in any case.

I do not believe there is a light on the instrument panel for the glow plugs.

There is a light, top right cluster, an orange coil. I have just has a look, the light was on for less than a second, I didn't start the car Ignition off and on again, and no light the second time.

[Bohica]

Also, what is 'WP' when sierraferry states "..if it gets 12V across the WP and black wires.."?

Cheers mate!

WP? is Willy Pete!

[getLuke]

You must get to the pump with a multimeter and make sure that it gets power when you turn ignition on and dont hear it to not be an electrical circuit issue or sticking relay, if it gets 12V across the WP and black wires but doesnt run you know for sure that it's faulty but if no power you'll replace it in vain

Tested the pump.

Murphys law.. its not, not working, so I can only confirm it is getting 12v to it when it is operational (I can hear pump running and then pull plug, test and can see 12v).

I'll keep checking as often as I can and when it does not prime/purge I'll whack the multimeter on.

I did see somewhere the sealing ring holding the pump housing in needs to be replaced if taken off? I'll replace the seal of course..

[getLuke]

4 out of 5 aint bad. to paraphrase the meatloaf song.

I am somewhat sure that they heat on shutdown also, as there is a big current draw after switch off.

But my light has never come on, except for the usual start up check. Still there is a big draw when ignition is turned on for a few seconds which seem more than just fuel pump as my battery voltage goes from 12.5-7 down to 11.8 or thereabouts for a few seconds. Hard to tell once engine starts as alternator is putting out 14.5.
Regards PhilipA

You are correct. They do glow afterwards and I am pretty sure it has something to do with taking readings then using this to help start the engine. Hence why I thought this could be possibly the case in question here! Other reasons are for helping a cold start and even reducing emissions from what I understand.

[getLuke]

Yup, the sure is a light for the glow plugs…
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220510/af7af2dcd41b81d5b3a184666f265744.jpg

Thanks! Good to know [smilebigeye]

[getLuke]

There is a light, top right cluster, an orange coil. I have just has a look, the light was on for less than a second, I didn't start the car Ignition off and on again, and no light the second time.

Thanks mate, I just checked and seen it pop up on instrument panel lamp check [thumbsupbig]

[sierrafery]

Tested the pump.

Murphys law.. its not, not working, so I can only confirm it is getting 12v to it when it is operational (I can hear pump running and then pull plug, test and can see 12v).

I'll keep checking as often as I can and when it does not prime/purge I'll whack the multimeter on.

I did see somewhere the sealing ring holding the pump housing in needs to be replaced if taken off? I'll replace the seal of course..Try to do somehow to measure with the plug connected to the pump cos i've seen cases when there was 12V in the plug disconnected but dropped under the pump's load due to a bad contact on the circuit/earth...eventually insert neddles into those pins from behind and measure on those.

[getLuke]

So I left it overnight and tested the plug on first start up.

No voltage from first approx 4 ignition cycles, then we got 12v.

So now I am going to go back and get a new relay and try that as I do not think it is the pump.

Any other ideas?

[350RRC]

Ignition switch.

Check the voltage at the switching terminal on the relay as you cycle the ignition switch.

[Bohica]

This morning 10C, ignition on glow plug light is on. Start the car glow plug light goes off. I have, in the past, started the car successfully at -5C

[getLuke]

Ignition switch.

Check the voltage at the switching terminal on the relay as you cycle the ignition switch.

Will try that tomorrow morning when it should fail again.

I tried all last night (about 5 times on the hour) from 5pm - 10pm and each time the pump primed immediately. When I got up this morning it failed straight away.

I'll see if the local LR shop has a relay in stock and I'll switch that after testing the relay terminal.

[getLuke]

This morning 10C, ignition on glow plug light is on. Start the car glow plug light goes off. I have, in the past, started the car successfully at -5C

I am originally from New Zealand so my old diesels would always need a glow plug warm up [thumbsupbig]

Seen my instrument cluster again light up for a second at start up again this morning but being in the Sunshine Coast (currently rainy coast but still 18oC), its not an issue lol.

[V8Ian]

I am originally from New Zealand
We'll try not to hold it against you. [wink11]

[getLuke]

We'll try not to hold it against you. [wink11]

Phew! [bigrolf]

[sierrafery]

So I left it overnight and tested the plug on first start up.

No voltage from first approx 4 ignition cycles, then we got 12v.

So now I am going to go back and get a new relay and try that as I do not think it is the pump.

Any other ideas?
Yes first of all rule out the relay(swap it with R3/headlamp wash for test) then if it's the same you'll have to troubleshoot where the bad contact is based on the diagram and involved connectors/earth if you know how to do that, now it's certain that your starting issue is electrical, IMO if it was the ignition switch it should have affected all the electrics not just the pump

[getLuke]

Yes first of all rule out the relay(swap it with R3/headlamp wash for test) then if it's the same you'll have to troubleshoot where the bad contact is based on the diagram and involved connectors/earth if you know how to do that, now it's certain that your starting issue is electrical, IMO if it was the ignition switch it should have affected all the electrics not just the pump

Yep, so have switched the relays and will wait until tomorrow morning for it to not work, to test! Unless it fires up straight away which would then indicate the relay.

Unfortunately the land rover shop gave me the wrong relays *facepalm* so will need to take them back tomorrow.

Im fairly new learning electrical stuff..

Do you know where the earth points would be located to check?

I did have a AUX issue where the cigar lighter, radio, windscreen wipers would not work then suddenly come on after 30seconds - 10 mins of driving.

[sierrafery]

If you want to find the problem yourself you have to know to read the diagrams then the connector views, the pump's earth point is on that rail between the battery and fusebox, the first connector after the fusebox for the pump is in the engine bay so next time check on that for voltage and if you have voltage there and at the pump is missing you know that theproblem is on that path, see Electrical library - connector views - C0376 and check across earth and the WP wire when the pump is not running

[getLuke]

If you want to find the problem yourself you have to know to read the diagrams then the connector views, the pump's earth point is on that rail between the battery and fusebox, the first connector after the fusebox for the pump is in the engine bay so next time check on that for voltage and if you have voltage there and at the pump is missing you know that theproblem is on that path, see Electrical library - connector views - C0376 and check across earth and the WP wire when the pump is not running

Awesome, thanks bud!

I've always avoided electrical stuff but now with a Land Rover, I may as well learn.

Checked the earths by the ECU and gave them all a good clean and made sure they were all good. I'll check the voltage on that earth tomorrow morning in unison with the washer relay swap.

I will also have a look at the electrical library and check for the earth locations if that is the problem!

[350RRC]

Yes first of all rule out the relay(swap it with R3/headlamp wash for test) then if it's the same you'll have to troubleshoot where the bad contact is based on the diagram and involved connectors/earth if you know how to do that, now it's certain that your starting issue is electrical, IMO if it was the ignition switch it should have affected all the electrics not just the pump

If the switch is anything like those in RRC's they end up with all sorts of weird symptoms when the copper dimples inside get worn, even temp related IME.

[AK83]

....

I've always avoided electrical stuff but now with a Land Rover, I may as well learn.

Checked the earths by the ECU and gave them all a good clean and made sure they were all good. I'll check the voltage on that earth tomorrow morning in unison with the washer relay swap.

.....

I hate electrics! I hate LR electrics even more so!!

The way I understand troubleshooting: when you checked for power, did you connect multimeter (or test light) at both power AND earth at the plug? Or did you check the earth by grounding somewhere metallic?

So if you connected meter to both power and earth at the plug, then you're checking both power and earth(points) at the same time. Good test to do.
If you connect power at the plug and earth at the chassis, this way you only tested the power circuit, not the return earth line.

If you had a earth failure point somewhere doing both test types confirms or eliminates this. If you had a earth failure, and the positive rail was OK, then if you ran a wire from chassis to the earth pin on the plug, you can solve the issue.
ie. you had an earthing issue.

If you tested for power only(which most folks do) by earthing the multimeter to the chassis, then you have a power rail issue(ie. fuse/relay/etc) type problem .. this simplifies what to concentrate on, ie. your issues is 99.9% related to the positive side.
This doesn't mean that you don't have a earth issue tho.. It could be a compounding problem.

This is why in my reply I said get a battery to the rear, couple of wires(say 10 amp types or whatever) .. I don't think you need a fused wire, but if you have, then better. Just connect battery to pump terminals, not too long, just a few seconds is enough. Do this a few times to confirm that the pump accepts power and operates each time. Could have been a electrical issue within the pump .. not just a failed pump.
But it seems you have confirmed that power to the plug is the issue. Just work out if it's pos or earth.

Oh and don't be surprised if the underside of the main fuse box(engine bay one) could be corroded/dirty/loose/etc too .. so could simply be a connection issue at the source to the wire.
D2's also seem to be prone to interior fuse box issues too. so pull it down, inspect it, I reckon give the back side of it a spray too.
(the pass fuse box doesn't seem to have any role in the fuel pump .. that was just a general tip to help keep future electrical gremlins at bay)

if you don't know the history of the vehicle I'd do a bit of a WD-refresh. pull relays and fuses and spray a WD or lube type or contact cleaner spray into and down the receptacles.

[Keegan]

2004 TD5 D2a

For a couple years, this thing fired up immediately. Every single time.

Now I am waiting 30 seconds for the fuel pump to prime at ignition II, before turning the engine over and it the starts immediately.

Sometimes it needs to wait, sometimes it doesn’t.

Once it’s going, no problem whatsoever.

My thoughts are either fuel pump or injector seals.

Just completed a service including fuel filter with nil change and the oil did not seem to thin or smell like diesel.

Just looking for some troubleshooting hints.

I will be looking to replace the fuel pump as I’ve just done the rocker gasket and hoping I don’t have to do that again if it was the seals haha
I would do the seals and orings on the injectors. Especially if fuel pump sounds like its gurgling.

[getLuke]

If the switch is anything like those in RRC's they end up with all sorts of weird symptoms when the copper dimples inside get worn, even temp related IME.

I have had similar problems with a Subaru Forrester's window switch. I pulled it apart, cleaned the little contacts and reassembled - worked perfectly again.

This could be worth investigating, cheers!

[getLuke]

I hate electrics! I hate LR electrics even more so!!

The way I understand troubleshooting: when you checked for power, did you connect multimeter (or test light) at both power AND earth at the plug? Or did you check the earth by grounding somewhere metallic?

So if you connected meter to both power and earth at the plug, then you're checking both power and earth(points) at the same time. Good test to do.
If you connect power at the plug and earth at the chassis, this way you only tested the power circuit, not the return earth line.

If you had a earth failure point somewhere doing both test types confirms or eliminates this. If you had a earth failure, and the positive rail was OK, then if you ran a wire from chassis to the earth pin on the plug, you can solve the issue.
ie. you had an earthing issue.

If you tested for power only(which most folks do) by earthing the multimeter to the chassis, then you have a power rail issue(ie. fuse/relay/etc) type problem .. this simplifies what to concentrate on, ie. your issues is 99.9% related to the positive side.
This doesn't mean that you don't have a earth issue tho.. It could be a compounding problem.

This is why in my reply I said get a battery to the rear, couple of wires(say 10 amp types or whatever) .. I don't think you need a fused wire, but if you have, then better. Just connect battery to pump terminals, not too long, just a few seconds is enough. Do this a few times to confirm that the pump accepts power and operates each time. Could have been a electrical issue within the pump .. not just a failed pump.
But it seems you have confirmed that power to the plug is the issue. Just work out if it's pos or earth.

Oh and don't be surprised if the underside of the main fuse box(engine bay one) could be corroded/dirty/loose/etc too .. so could simply be a connection issue at the source to the wire.
D2's also seem to be prone to interior fuse box issues too. so pull it down, inspect it, I reckon give the back side of it a spray too.
(the pass fuse box doesn't seem to have any role in the fuel pump .. that was just a general tip to help keep future electrical gremlins at bay)

if you don't know the history of the vehicle I'd do a bit of a WD-refresh. pull relays and fuses and spray a WD or lube type or contact cleaner spray into and down the receptacles.

Cheers mate, glad I'm on the same page re electrics haha

I checked the power to the pump at the plug using the WP wire and B wire (so power and earth at the plug). I will have to wait until it fails again (usually after standing overnight) to test using another earth and the WP power at the plug.

I'll grab another battery and try giving power to the pump, however, I agree I feel the pump is no longer the issue as with the test the other morning there was no voltage going to the pump until a few cycles of the ignition switch. But as you said, I can at least eliminate the pump finally.

Is the engine bay fuse box relatively easy to remove to clean? I may as well have a look at the internal fusebox and give it a tidy up if needed too.

Had the D2a for 3 years and this is the first time of electrics playing up, so I may aswell give it a good spray with contact cleaner.

Thanks heaps for you help mate! Few more jobs to do :)

[getLuke]

I would do the seals and orings on the injectors. Especially if fuel pump sounds like its gurgling.

Rebuilt the engine not long ago and I am sure they were replaced with the new AMC head.

I feel with the assistance of the forum here we have nearly certainly identified a power/relay/ground issue rather than mechanical, however, if I still can't sort it out I'll go ahead and replace the seals, o rings and the injector harness (I just did the rocker gasket a couple months back too [bighmmm])

[getLuke]

So this morning with the wiper relay switched with the fuel pump relay, it clicked and primed immediately on first turn of the ignition.

I was not able to then test the relay points as it was working.

Interestingly enough, I felt I had changed the relays to test prior, but this is when I got home, and from the last few days it has been proven it has been working up until the following morning.. so that makes sense.

I'll swap the relays at the LR shop this arvo and get the right ones and then swap them and see how it goes.

When/if it fails again, I'll go ahead and check the power to the pump with the negative earthed to the chassis/another ground.

I'll also check with another power source to see if the pumps working, although I am confident it is not the pump causing the issue.

Finally, I'll look to remove the fusebox in the weekend and give it a really good clean and check all wire contacts.

I'll pull the ECU out and check the ground cable and also if there is any oil in the plug (although I checked the same time as rocker gasket so doubtful, but hey - Land Rover Things).

Again, I really appreciate the help by everyone here!

[AK83]

....

Had the D2a for 3 years and this is the first time of electrics playing up, so I may aswell give it a good spray with contact cleaner.

....

Disclaimer here, there can be some minor difference between D2 and D2a electrics, generally the same, but if someone says this, and you find that, we've discovered another! So I can only offer what I know .. no guarantee it's the same in the D2a.

clean fuse boxes is not hard, but I wouldn't call it 'easy'.
The cables can be stiff to flex them up ... maybe every vehicle is a bit different due to use and age.
ps here. I just use INOX for it .. seems to work fine on rusted up lighting sockets.. so I guess should be fine for fuse/relay connections that already seem to work OK enough.

Quick back story: 'my' Td5 is my brothers(but it's with my most of the time). got it some time back and had starting issues(but running issues too). I'm not a mech, but I've done and fixed enough to be reminded of what issues relates to what component, and I was positive that issue must have been fuel pump or reg. Changed pump, small difference. Changed reg, no difference, but the intermittency was less. But when it resurfaced, it seemed worse than before.
Everyone here recommended injector seals, and doing the loom just in case and for the obvious reasons that you're already opened up in there ... silly not too.
Anyhow, did seals, and presto! good as new, until the waste gate modulator failed, and it felt like it all started again. Quick and easy bypass, but again fixed and shes run fine ever since(now about 4 years).
But there were(and are) small annoyances with some electrics .. gremlins. In the course of doing other niggle detail stuff(cosmetics, undoing stuff ups, etc) weird things popped up. Did a window, and found a ton of silt in the bottom of the door. ??
Did some ecu stuff, and found anomalies in the VIN numbers. Did another door and found more silt .. then things started to add up. A previous owner had gone all sub commander on it at some point and for sure drowned in it muddy water. Must have got stuck for a bit. So I checked all doors and yep, everywhere was this very fine powdery silt. ECU/ BCU and body VINS all different, so they much have killed the electrics when drowned. I cleaned up the silt as far as I could reach(tons of the stuff!). Then went through and clean sprayed the fuse boxes, underneath and then pull relays and spray .. and rinse and repeat. I have contact cleaner, but there wasn't any rust, in fact they looked clean (enough) .. just to be sure to be sure.

The last electrical gremlin, maybe not related to any of this, are the wipers. They have this strange delay when you want them on. Flip the switch and ......... oh! they decided that it's time to wake up. They work perfectly other than this yawwwny delay .. sometimes! [biggrin]
Same with the wash/wipe action too. They work, so I aint touching nothing(until it's needed to be fondled with).

This is why I suggested that previous unknown owner actions could be at play here.

As an example of how this 'could' play out for 'ya. A previous owner may have been working on another part of the vehicle and inadvertently snagged the WP(white with purple tracer) wire somewhere that runs down the body. Lets say it got cut, and they thought good idea to fix this faux pas would be an under rated spade plug set. May not be rated for 25amps .. so connection is dodgy.

Get a feel for weirdo previous owner work that appears to have been done.

So back to your issue, the other thing to look for is in the engine bay. At the fuse box, between the fuse box and the coolant expansion tank is a black plug. How this plug is set up depends on if you have SLS(air suspension) down back.
If rear coils, this black plug will only have a WP wire.. quick thick(3.0mm) coming out of it. If SLS, then you will have a WB wire coming out of it too. it's still the same twin point plug, just either one or the two wires. It's obvious when you see it, the thickness of the WP wire is the standout about it compared to the rest of the loom in this area. There will be a grey multi plug too .. much thinner wires.
Expansion tank is easy to remove. if you never done it, you just pull on the rear side of it(the cap end) lift and forward and it unclips(two tandem clips once it's up) .. then you need to pull up and backwards a bit to unkook it from the front side too(and manouvre the hose on the RHS away from the electric retaining bracket. Do this will reveal the black plug, with WP wire that goes back to the pump to give you your 12v. There should be a very short lead of wire from the fuse box, and the other side of the plug will go down into the loom(to the pump). If you find it's a positive rail issue, check for power here too, at the shorter fly lead side of the plug halves. also check the plug insides.. no rust/dust/mangled pins/etc. cleaning it out won't hurt it either.
This short fly lead is connected under the fuse box by another plug in connector(same 3.0mm WP wire to it, so it will be obvious. Also check this connector/pin/wire for power if you find that power(ie. not earth) is the issue.

So how to narrow down the locations of electrical issues. You already found that at some point you had no 12v at the pump plug end, if you find the same issue via chassis earthing too, then lets assume it is power(12v) problem, so no power at the plug at the pump. Now find the next connector in the path(that black one near the fuse box) is there power there? if not, then check for power at the pin on the fuse box connector point too .. etc.

[getLuke]

Disclaimer here, there can be some minor difference between D2 and D2a electrics, generally the same, but if someone says this, and you find that, we've discovered another! So I can only offer what I know .. no guarantee it's the same in the D2a.

clean fuse boxes is not hard, but I wouldn't call it 'easy'.
The cables can be stiff to flex them up ... maybe every vehicle is a bit different due to use and age.
ps here. I just use INOX for it .. seems to work fine on rusted up lighting sockets.. so I guess should be fine for fuse/relay connections that already seem to work OK enough.

Quick back story: 'my' Td5 is my brothers(but it's with my most of the time). got it some time back and had starting issues(but running issues too). I'm not a mech, but I've done and fixed enough to be reminded of what issues relates to what component, and I was positive that issue must have been fuel pump or reg. Changed pump, small difference. Changed reg, no difference, but the intermittency was less. But when it resurfaced, it seemed worse than before.
Everyone here recommended injector seals, and doing the loom just in case and for the obvious reasons that you're already opened up in there ... silly not too.
Anyhow, did seals, and presto! good as new, until the waste gate modulator failed, and it felt like it all started again. Quick and easy bypass, but again fixed and shes run fine ever since(now about 4 years).
But there were(and are) small annoyances with some electrics .. gremlins. In the course of doing other niggle detail stuff(cosmetics, undoing stuff ups, etc) weird things popped up. Did a window, and found a ton of silt in the bottom of the door. ??
Did some ecu stuff, and found anomalies in the VIN numbers. Did another door and found more silt .. then things started to add up. A previous owner had gone all sub commander on it at some point and for sure drowned in it muddy water. Must have got stuck for a bit. So I checked all doors and yep, everywhere was this very fine powdery silt. ECU/ BCU and body VINS all different, so they much have killed the electrics when drowned. I cleaned up the silt as far as I could reach(tons of the stuff!). Then went through and clean sprayed the fuse boxes, underneath and then pull relays and spray .. and rinse and repeat. I have contact cleaner, but there wasn't any rust, in fact they looked clean (enough) .. just to be sure to be sure.

The last electrical gremlin, maybe not related to any of this, are the wipers. They have this strange delay when you want them on. Flip the switch and ......... oh! they decided that it's time to wake up. They work perfectly other than this yawwwny delay .. sometimes! [biggrin]
Same with the wash/wipe action too. They work, so I aint touching nothing(until it's needed to be fondled with).

This is why I suggested that previous unknown owner actions could be at play here.

As an example of how this 'could' play out for 'ya. A previous owner may have been working on another part of the vehicle and inadvertently snagged the WP(white with purple tracer) wire somewhere that runs down the body. Lets say it got cut, and they thought good idea to fix this faux pas would be an under rated spade plug set. May not be rated for 25amps .. so connection is dodgy.

Get a feel for weirdo previous owner work that appears to have been done.

So back to your issue, the other thing to look for is in the engine bay. At the fuse box, between the fuse box and the coolant expansion tank is a black plug. How this plug is set up depends on if you have SLS(air suspension) down back.
If rear coils, this black plug will only have a WP wire.. quick thick(3.0mm) coming out of it. If SLS, then you will have a WB wire coming out of it too. it's still the same twin point plug, just either one or the two wires. It's obvious when you see it, the thickness of the WP wire is the standout about it compared to the rest of the loom in this area. There will be a grey multi plug too .. much thinner wires.
Expansion tank is easy to remove. if you never done it, you just pull on the rear side of it(the cap end) lift and forward and it unclips(two tandem clips once it's up) .. then you need to pull up and backwards a bit to unkook it from the front side too(and manouvre the hose on the RHS away from the electric retaining bracket. Do this will reveal the black plug, with WP wire that goes back to the pump to give you your 12v. There should be a very short lead of wire from the fuse box, and the other side of the plug will go down into the loom(to the pump). If you find it's a positive rail issue, check for power here too, at the shorter fly lead side of the plug halves. also check the plug insides.. no rust/dust/mangled pins/etc. cleaning it out won't hurt it either.
This short fly lead is connected under the fuse box by another plug in connector(same 3.0mm WP wire to it, so it will be obvious. Also check this connector/pin/wire for power if you find that power(ie. not earth) is the issue.

So how to narrow down the locations of electrical issues. You already found that at some point you had no 12v at the pump plug end, if you find the same issue via chassis earthing too, then lets assume it is power(12v) problem, so no power at the plug at the pump. Now find the next connector in the path(that black one near the fuse box) is there power there? if not, then check for power at the pin on the fuse box connector point too .. etc.

Haha wow! I bet cleaning it would have been painful!

When I got mine I went over it head to toe, pulling all door cards off, cleaning every little bit I could find, and was in pretty good nick to be fair.

There is some dodgy wiring for the spotlights at the front, but I had the battery terminals all cleaned up by an auto elec and I am looking to tidy up all the other crappy wires eventually.

Thanks heaps for your help mate. I think when I clean the wires up in the bay, I'll give the fuse box a go over also and make sure all my earths are spot on.

[getLuke]

Firstly, thanks heaps to everyone here on the forum with the help.

I do find a lot of posts state "Just google it" or "search this forum, plenty of old threads about this issue". Which I think is counter-intuitive to what a forum is about.

Yes, there may be dozens, or even hundreds of posts about these issues, and if you do find one that helps, awesome!

What I like is that each problem is based on the individual, their knowledge (or in my electrical case, the lack there of) and the vehicle (mods/history etc.).

So this thread is a great example, yes some comments in this thread are the same what I found in others, but it was the process of elimination and the individual journey of my case that I really enjoyed. This way I eliminated heaps of things particular to my issue.

Right, now to the update..

So I removed the headlight washer relay (R3) and replaced this with the exisiting in the fuel pump relay (R1) and this seems to have done the trick.

I can see my error, when I swapped the relays, they worked. However, I swapped them once I got home from work, and the issue was when it was standing overnight, the issue was present. So even though I had swapped them and found no difference, I failed to test this after standing.

Without this forum and the help of you legends, I would have taken this to the shop to probably be charged a few hundred labour diagnostics to identify a relay. So again, thanks!

Now, this has only been tested over 2 mornings, but even after work, after it had been standing for 8 hours, it would sometimes not work. So far both days has seen the car start immediately and can hear the pump priming.

I'll keep an eye on the issue and if anything changes I'll be back!

Another thing I learnt with the glow plugs is that the relay (R6) is for the glow plugs so this 'could' be an issue should there be a problem with starting but wouldn't imagine this to be too often.

I have learnt a lot on this journey, and now I am a paid member of AURLO I will look to support the forum. I am finding I am checking this forum a few times a day now, and hopefully I will be able to also provide support to others.

P.S - I took the relays back to the local LR shop and they refunded me and gave me a couple of spares for free. Great shop!

[getLuke]

Bugger.

So the relay switch seemed to have worked for some time, however, this issue has reared its ugly head again.

It was back to normal - key in and in off position. Straight from off -> past ignition I and II straight to start and it'd fire up instantly.

Fast forward to today where this time I was stuck for about 20 minutes.

Started car - turned over without firing - 2 seconds.

Turned key back to off.

Turned key back to ignition II - did not hear any priming at all.

Changed relays (starter motor and fuel pump). Same issue - relays ruled out.

Left my finger on the relay when cycling the ignition and I am not sure if it was another relay clicking but it didn't feel as though it was clicking.

Ran the nanocom and found no codes.

I kept cycling the ignition and then suddenly I heard it prime - let it prime for 30 seconds, then she fired up.

So my uneducated thinking is that somewhere between the ignition to the relay in the fusebox is where the issue sits.

I'll find the post where I need to test the fusebox, as this could be the issue and then see if I can test it.

Interestingly enough again, the HDC amber warning light was on (not the green one). I recall seeing this the other times when it was not priming. Once the fuel pump kicked in, it went off - I am confident this is telling me something!

[getLuke]

Swapped relays R9 (Main Circuit) & R7 (AUX)

Fuel pump primed straight away and amber HDC light went off.

Swapped back and fuel pump did not prime and amber HDC light came back.

Swapped again and this time tested window wipers, cigar lighter and radio and all worked as they should.

Also checked under the fusebox and looked pretty dirty so might remove the fusebox and tidy up all the aftermarket wires from the previous owner and myself and get some conduits in there.

Left it for a few hours, now the same thing, no prime and amber HDC light on.

Must be fuseboard playing havoc?

Would the crank sensor be able to cause these issues?

[sierrafery]

Would the crank sensor be able to cause these issues?
Never, at this point the fusebox is very suspect... or bad contact in the involved connector in it

[getLuke]

Never, at this point the fusebox is very suspect... or bad contact in the involved connector in it

Didn't think so and I appreciate the confirmation!

Next step is removal of the fusebox then, will give it a clean and re-install and also look for a replacement.

Any tips for fusebox removal?

[sierrafery]

Disconnect the battery, undo the brown and red thick wires, remove the 3 retaining bolts, lift it and unplug connectors

[getLuke]

Pulled the fusebox out and cleaned all around the base and top - although it was not too dirty.

Checked out the C-0376 - C-0390 connections and they looked fine however there was only the WP wire coming out of C-0390 and not the WB.

Interestingly enough RAVES states the C-0578 is in pin 4. But for mine its in pin 3? You can see in one of the images, I should have taken a better photo.

I've got a fusebox being sent to me so I feel along with the intermittent AUX issue I have (Aux circuit - Intermittent issue (https://www.aulro.com/afvb/discovery-2-a/291004-aux-circuit-intermittent-issue.html)) and perhaps why the amber HDC light comes on, this will fix my issue... hopefully [bigsmile1]

178970178971178972

[sierrafery]

The amber HDC light is probably a complementary issue cos it's about the HDC relay which is built into the interior fusebox so you might have to replace that fusebox too

[AK83]

.....

Checked out the C-0376 - C-0390 connections and they looked fine however there was only the WP wire coming out of C-0390 and not the WB.

......

This is normal, but normal as long as you don't have SLS fitted. The code '13' in the RHS column(Cct) equates to a particular model/range, which in this instance is the models fitted with SLS.

So if you do any more tracing of electricals and see a code in the Cct column, look for your model, otherwise it will list 'ALL'. The code table is at the very top of the connector listing pages.

I think your pinout is OK(from what I can understand. The connector view is from the front, not the rear, so pin3 in your photo is the upper LH corner pin(rear view) which is the upper RH corner in the RAVE image(front view).
This should be the PS(Purple - Grey(tracer) wire) which looks about right. The colours in your photo haven't rendered clearly but this looks about right to me. Pin1 sort'a kind'a looks Purple/Pink ... ish! Directly underneath that pin is Pin4 which shows a white-ish coloured wire ... hopefully with the purple tracer.
Next to that pin(4) should be Pin5 which should have the OS(Orange grey tracer) wire, then Pin6 which looks blank unless you have a model code 24(Hiline Audio) .. which possibly yours isn't. If you have/had Hiline audio, there should be a Purple green wire there.

Reminder that the wire colour codes always refer to the main colour first, then the secondary colour is the tracer colour if applicable .. so WP is a white wire with a purple tracer, whereas a PS is a Purple wire with a Grey trace colour.

So now that you've located the 0390 connector that DOESN'T have the WB wire, next time you have a fuel pump issue and you reckon no power to the pump, check the power at this connector point. If there is no power on the fuel pump side, check the relay side(could be a dodgy connection inside the connector!). If you have handled the connector, which you almost certainly will have too, and the pump comes alive, then for sure this connector is intermittent.
If you find no power at all at the connector, then the issues is either at the relay itself, or at C-0578 side some where too.

Hope it all makes sense.

[getLuke]

This is normal, but normal as long as you don't have SLS fitted. The code '13' in the RHS column(Cct) equates to a particular model/range, which in this instance is the models fitted with SLS.

So if you do any more tracing of electricals and see a code in the Cct column, look for your model, otherwise it will list 'ALL'. The code table is at the very top of the connector listing pages.

I think your pinout is OK(from what I can understand. The connector view is from the front, not the rear, so pin3 in your photo is the upper LH corner pin(rear view) which is the upper RH corner in the RAVE image(front view).
This should be the PS(Purple - Grey(tracer) wire) which looks about right. The colours in your photo haven't rendered clearly but this looks about right to me. Pin1 sort'a kind'a looks Purple/Pink ... ish! Directly underneath that pin is Pin4 which shows a white-ish coloured wire ... hopefully with the purple tracer.
Next to that pin(4) should be Pin5 which should have the OS(Orange grey tracer) wire, then Pin6 which looks blank unless you have a model code 24(Hiline Audio) .. which possibly yours isn't. If you have/had Hiline audio, there should be a Purple green wire there.

Reminder that the wire colour codes always refer to the main colour first, then the secondary colour is the tracer colour if applicable .. so WP is a white wire with a purple tracer, whereas a PS is a Purple wire with a Grey trace colour.

So now that you've located the 0390 connector that DOESN'T have the WB wire, next time you have a fuel pump issue and you reckon no power to the pump, check the power at this connector point. If there is no power on the fuel pump side, check the relay side(could be a dodgy connection inside the connector!). If you have handled the connector, which you almost certainly will have too, and the pump comes alive, then for sure this connector is intermittent.
If you find no power at all at the connector, then the issues is either at the relay itself, or at C-0578 side some where too.

Hope it all makes sense.

Thanks heaps mate! I am learning more about electronics now as I just shrugged them off when I was younger.

Spot on - No SLS on my D2a, so that now makes sense (and the location of the wire on the connector.

I have a new fusebox coming (well second hand from a mate down south who I can trust), and I think there must be an issue in the actual engine bay fusebox itself. I did try to open the fusebox when it was out but it seemed to be stuck on one corner and did not want to break it.

If this fails, as I am having some other weird things happen, I'll look to replace the internal fusebox also.

If all that fails, I'll be heading to the local LR shop or an auto electrician that knows Land Rovers haha!

Really appreciate the help!

I do have a question, probs silly but I am a beginner! How do I use the multi in the fusebox?

What points do I use, and what do I use as a ground?

Thanks :)

[AK83]

....

I do have a question, probs silly but I am a beginner! How do I use the multi in the fusebox?

What points do I use, and what do I use as a ground?

Thanks :)

Think of the fuse box as a solid wire connection point.

Check for continuity(in general).

That is, for this specific issue: find the connector that the WP wire seats into on the underside of the fuse box, that is the one that mates to Pin4 on connector 0578, and also locate the male plug side of where the relay plugs into now, from the top side.
The power down the WP line to the fuel pump comes from pin 87 on the relay. The relay will have markings on it to show which pin that is and you can line it up yourself to the embedded male plug on the fuse box topside.
All you want to be sure of is that you have good continuity from the top of the fuse box(where the power comes from) to the bottom side(where the power goes too).

Doing this just makes sure that your connections are good, not the voltage or power levels or resistance through the connection!

You asked about what grounding do you use. For ground, any ground is ground.. and ground is sometimes referred to as common. This is because no matter what ground point you use, it's all the same. What you can do tho, is to measure the resistance from one ground point to another(usually the main ground at the battery, or the battery ground pole itself).

One other thing about your specific issue. I wouldn't necessarily automatically assume that the fusebox may be the cause here, unless you have confirmed that all the wires from C-0578 on the WP line all the way to the pump are all good too.
It may well turn out to be the fusebox, but don't go into the troubleshooting process with any sort of bias.


So question: is the issue the same as before? IIRC sometimes you would need to hit the ignition switch maybe 3 or 4 times to get the fuel pump to make a sound .. kind of issue? or is it different now. Happens more often, or less often, or something?

[AK83]

Also: I'd say pulling fuse box apart may not yield any significant discovery.
Fuse box is basically a sturdy metal 'circuit board' type device. I don't know the metal used in this circuit board, but it's very sturdy.. quite rust proof.
Mine has been sitting in the weather for a few years, where many less sturdy metals have rusted away, but the fuse box innards are perfectly fine.
I doubt very much you have an issue between the relay socket and the pin going to the WP wire plug.

178998

It could be a small disconnection, but the box is a bit hard to pull apart. Working from the front,where the main power feed and maxi fuses are, you need to spread the outer side body to unclip the tabs, then using a ***** tool, delve into the two front tabs from underneath, poking and prodding each one in turn and forcing the two parts apart. Doing this will jam up at the rear end and make it tighter to separate. The tricky part is that not only do you have about 10 tabs to separate, but also the metal bus bars run along the sides too, and catch on the side of the main body, so you have to start from the front, work to the back and go back to the front again to open out the main outer body again to release the metal bus bar too. It's very easy to twist the entire metal bus bar assembly(but looks easy to straighten it back out again to get it all back in and working.
It's not magnetic which suggests it's a coated copper.

I re read your recent posts, and it seems like the relay is not clicking?(maybe).
If you had a touch on it when it was supposed to click, you would definitely feel it click on and off.
Swapping relays around makes a difference.

You said that it always happens when after standing(eg. overnight). So next time before you try starting, pop the fuse box cover and just wiggle R9 first before you try to start(or prime the pump). Don't remove it, or swap it, just wriggle it a bit by hand and hopefully it will start or prime up immediately.
The main relay controls the operation of the fuel pump relay too. So if the signal for the main relay is a bit dodgy it won't power the coil for the fuel pump relay to operate. Same power line also sends power to the engine ECU too.

I don't know exactly what this means in terms of tracing the issue, but maybe this is in the fusebox itself.

Be mindful too tho, you said you cleaned up the underside of the fuse box where a previous owner and yourself have added stuff. We don't know exactly what stuff you have added down under there, we can only assume that this has been done 'professionally' in that it hasn't disturbed the way the fuse box and relay system works.
ie. if you or previous owner have added an accessory that starts up via the main relay, and comes off fuse 1(30 amp) it could be that it's drawing a ton of power, and there isn't enough all the time for the main relay to send to the fuel pump relay, which itself won't turn on ... or something.
The term professionally doesn't strictly mean that it's been done by a elec .. they've also been found to not produce the professional jobs as their title implies they should.
I'm using the tern as an indicator to the idea that any added accessory or mod to the electrics hasn't affected the normal operation of the electrics.

[getLuke]

Think of the fuse box as a solid wire connection point.

Check for continuity(in general).

That is, for this specific issue: find the connector that the WP wire seats into on the underside of the fuse box, that is the one that mates to Pin4 on connector 0578, and also locate the male plug side of where the relay plugs into now, from the top side.
The power down the WP line to the fuel pump comes from pin 87 on the relay. The relay will have markings on it to show which pin that is and you can line it up yourself to the embedded male plug on the fuse box topside.
All you want to be sure of is that you have good continuity from the top of the fuse box(where the power comes from) to the bottom side(where the power goes too).

Doing this just makes sure that your connections are good, not the voltage or power levels or resistance through the connection!

Cheers legend! I'll have to check next time I can get the fusebox out again (garage is full atm).



So question: is the issue the same as before? IIRC sometimes you would need to hit the ignition switch maybe 3 or 4 times to get the fuel pump to make a sound .. kind of issue? or is it different now. Happens more often, or less often, or something?

Well interestingly enough, since I took the fuse box out (took ECU also and no oil in the plug), I numbered all relays, removed them all, then put them back in as taken out.

Now there is power to the pump every time (only since Sunday and Monday), so far, has been working fine. Now its back to the issue here: Aux circuit - Intermittent issue (https://www.aulro.com/afvb/discovery-2-a/291004-aux-circuit-intermittent-issue.html)

This is where the AUX circuit (wipers, cigar lighter, radio) does not come on straight away and will do after around 5 minutes of driving.

Today I left the wipers on the intermittent setting and I hear a repeated click, click, click from the interior fusebox relay so I turned them off and a minute later the circuit came back to life.

I am not sure, but I am confident these issues are related, hence my thoughts of the fusebox(es).

[getLuke]

Also: I'd say pulling fuse box apart may not yield any significant discovery.
Fuse box is basically a sturdy metal 'circuit board' type device. I don't know the metal used in this circuit board, but it's very sturdy.. quite rust proof.
Mine has been sitting in the weather for a few years, where many less sturdy metals have rusted away, but the fuse box innards are perfectly fine.
I doubt very much you have an issue between the relay socket and the pin going to the WP wire plug.

178998

Thanks mate, that photo helps me understand what the internals are like. And good to hear they are fairly sturdy.. I won't bother trying to open it up.. unless the new one solves it and I'll rip it apart.



I re read your recent posts, and it seems like the relay is not clicking?(maybe).

If you had a touch on it when it was supposed to click, you would definitely feel it click on and off.

Swapping relays around makes a difference.

Yeah sometimes it clicks (when working) and then sometimes I am sure it does not click (when not working).

I just think its the other relays when I am resting my finger and the vibration carries.

I have switched relays, got new relays and the problem persists.




You said that it always happens when after standing(eg. overnight). So next time before you try starting, pop the fuse box cover and just wiggle R9 first before you try to start(or prime the pump). Don't remove it, or swap it, just wriggle it a bit by hand and hopefully it will start or prime up immediately.

Will do!



I don't know exactly what this means in terms of tracing the issue, but maybe this is in the fusebox itself.

Be mindful too tho, you said you cleaned up the underside of the fuse box where a previous owner and yourself have added stuff. We don't know exactly what stuff you have added down under there, we can only assume that this has been done 'professionally' in that it hasn't disturbed the way the fuse box and relay system works.

So the previous owner has wired in spotlights direct from the battery with its own fuse and relay and works off the headlight/high-beam. He has also wired in a switch so if you only want stock high-beam and not spotlights, you are able to do so. I am thinking to pretty much remove the complete install (spotties, wires, fuse, relay etc) as its pretty ugly and I never use the spotlights to be fair.

I have installed a winch which is powered directly from the cranking battery.

I have also installed a head temperature sensor which gets its feed direct from the cigar lighter (spliced). Although I have now disconnected this to ensure this was not part of the fault.

I have also installed a UHF radio, which used its power from a 'piggyback' fuse from the interior fusebox. This has also been disconnected. My original thought was, as this was mounted in the map slot above the sun visor, with minor water ingress the light stopped working and then I thought the system had actually caused a short. But this has been removed entirely.

Mate, thank you so much for your advice and help. I certainly have learnt heaps - especially that there is a uniform way to label wire colours haha!

[singlecell]

On the times you have to wait, does the car seem like its going to start and then fail? Then you have to wait a little before it then starts?

[getLuke]

On the times you have to wait, does the car seem like its going to start and then fail? Then you have to wait a little before it then starts?

It cranks fine, the issue is no power feed to the fuel pump.

It never starts firing then doesn't then does, like an old carby engine. It simply just turns over.

[getLuke]

So this morning it has been the AUX circuit that is now failing. The vehicle starts absolutely fine.

It takes around 5 minutes for the AUX circuit to come on.

My inexperienced brains telling me perhaps it is a connection issue where it warms up and expands, or something along those lines?

The fact that these issues are happening and it is either one of the other, leads me to think its the fusebox.

Hopefully next update is when I have the new one installed.

[AK83]

sounds very weird, and I'm still thinking not the fuse box(yet).

Are the relays all new now? I think you said you took the new ones back after replacing them and still the same issue.

With the Aux circuit delay ie. is the delay in one or all of the key positions?
That is, if you just hit the first click, is there still the delay in the aux circuits? or is it only after starting?
Have the wipers/cigar socket power something/radio/etc, go to first click, and does this thing come on? or is it only after you start it that you notice the delay.

Quick check. have only aux on, have engine fuse box lid off, locate aux relay, give it a tappety tap tap .. or a wiggle, or something .. and maybe it will activate(or not) ... again will narrow stuff down a bit.

Also in the meantime, while you wait for the fusebox to come, be sure the fusible links, with the torx screws clamping them down, are tight. Unlikely they've come loose, but you never know.
You need a T40 for the large ones and T25 for the smaller ones.

[singlecell]

It cranks fine, the issue is no power feed to the fuel pump.

It never starts firing then doesn't then does, like an old carby engine. It simply just turns over.

I have been having the same issue for years. Happens about 4 - 5 times a year to me.
Cranks but wont start, then just wait a minute and it starts perfectly fine. My theory is that power drops out to one of the computers and its just resetting. I think this as when the issue occurs my aftermarket head unit starts up as if it has had the constant 12v removed. And the way the car turns over without any fuel is the same as when I used my nanocom to adjust one of the computers (cant remember which one) and it takes like 40-60 seconds before the car will start correctly. I could be totally wrong, but thats the feeling I get.

[Four Loko]

I have been having the same issue for years. Happens about 4 - 5 times a year to me.
Cranks but wont start, then just wait a minute and it starts perfectly fine. My theory is that power drops out to one of the computers and its just resetting. I think this as when the issue occurs my aftermarket head unit starts up as if it has had the constant 12v removed. And the way the car turns over without any fuel is the same as when I used my nanocom to adjust one of the computers (cant remember which one) and it takes like 40-60 seconds before the car will start correctly. I could be totally wrong, but thats the feeling I get.

I too have had this randomly. Just cranks and cranks does nothing no other symptoms. I thought maybe some thing happened with the alarm / immobilizer and I would just sit in the car turn it off lock it with the fob wait a few mins unlock and it would fire as soon as the key is turned.

Recently I did replace my wiring harness with a brand new one and also my crank sensor at the same time, yet to have it happen since, but its not been that long and as you all say it has been infrequent when it does it. If I get it again I will post back.

[getLuke]

Are the relays all new now? I think you said you took the new ones back after replacing them and still the same issue.

Not all of them, the fuel pump, main relay and AUX are. When the fusebox arrives it has all the relays on it so will transfer them all first, to see if it could have been any of them.


With the Aux circuit delay ie. is the delay in one or all of the key positions?
That is, if you just hit the first click, is there still the delay in the aux circuits? or is it only after starting?

All key positions. Ignition I, II and crank (engine running) - there is a delay.


Have the wipers/cigar socket power something/radio/etc, go to first click, and does this thing come on? or is it only after you start it that you notice the delay.

Quick check. have only aux on, have engine fuse box lid off, locate aux relay, give it a tappety tap tap .. or a wiggle, or something .. and maybe it will activate(or not) ... again will narrow stuff down a bit.

Nothing comes on the aux circuit at any ignition point.

I'll give it a tap (AUX RELAY) tomorrow morning (unless I check tonight and its not working).


Also in the meantime, while you wait for the fusebox to come, be sure the fusible links, with the torx screws clamping them down, are tight. Unlikely they've come loose, but you never know.
You need a T40 for the large ones and T25 for the smaller ones.

I removed all FL's (well 1, 2, 3 and 4) when trying to seperate the fuse box and they are now tight and certainly getting contact. Only FL1 (is that the alternator safe guard?) had torx, the other 3 have phillips.

179038

[getLuke]

I have been having the same issue for years. Happens about 4 - 5 times a year to me.
Cranks but wont start, then just wait a minute and it starts perfectly fine. My theory is that power drops out to one of the computers and its just resetting. I think this as when the issue occurs my aftermarket head unit starts up as if it has had the constant 12v removed. And the way the car turns over without any fuel is the same as when I used my nanocom to adjust one of the computers (cant remember which one) and it takes like 40-60 seconds before the car will start correctly. I could be totally wrong, but thats the feeling I get.

Thanks mate, but the fact that mine occurs every single day, sometimes twice (if I need the car at lunch), I feel the problems could be different as your issue is extremely less frequent.

[getLuke]

Quick check. have only aux on, have engine fuse box lid off, locate aux relay, give it a tappety tap tap .. or a wiggle, or something .. and maybe it will activate(or not) ... again will narrow stuff down a bit.

By the power of the gods, it finally worked! That is, the starting issue. The fuel pump was not priming.



I turned it on and could hear fuel pump and AUX circuit was fine.
Turned it off, waited, plugged in Nanocom and turned car on. No fuel pump sound and the HDC amber light was illuminated. AUX circuit was fine.
Popped the bonnet, car still at IGN II, wiggled R9 and the fuel pump started. I could hear it. Also the HDC amber light extinguished. AUX circuit, fine.
Turned it off, removed R9, turned it back on and no fuel pump sound, the HDC amber light was illuminated. AUX circuit was fine.
Off, R9 in and after a couple more goes at it, I managed to recreate the above process.


So clearly an issue with relay(s) or fusebox connections..?

[shack]

By the power of the gods, it finally worked! That is, the starting issue. The fuel pump was not priming.



I turned it on and could hear fuel pump and AUX circuit was fine.
Turned it off, waited, plugged in Nanocom and turned car on. No fuel pump sound and the HDC amber light was illuminated. AUX circuit was fine.
Popped the bonnet, car still at IGN II, wiggled R9 and the fuel pump started. I could hear it. Also the HDC amber light extinguished. AUX circuit, fine.
Turned it off, removed R9, turned it back on and no fuel pump sound, the HDC amber light was illuminated. AUX circuit was fine.
Off, R9 in and after a couple more goes at it, I managed to recreate the above process.


So clearly an issue with relay(s) or fusebox connections..?I'd say so.

[AK83]

yep, me too.

could be fuse box itself as you might think, could be dodgy plug/wire underneath too, or still a bit of rust/scale/muck in the pin sockets ..

When you wiggled it, did you feel it click. It would have been clearly obvious if it did. Theres a difference if it did click or not click.

if it didn't click and the pump suddenly sprouted to life, then the main power(ie. pins 30/87 .. or 3 and 5) are the issue to be looking into.
If the relay clicked, and pump came on, then the power for the relays coil is where to look into.

remember the relay is just a fancy schmancy switch. Your switch(in this case, the key powering the main relay, so no actual switch to speak of) .. powers the coil in the relay, which connects the main feed to the pump.

think of it this way: you have a simple switch to operate a device(say lights, or sunroof, or whatever). the switch you use to turn it on/off will be made cheaply/small, dinky as possible(to save money) and can't carry a large current load.
So there is a relay between your switch and your device. The switch activates the relay switch(ie. the coil) and the device itself gets power from the battery but via the relay. the coil in the relay just connected the main power from battery to relay to device.

reason for all this is that if you push say 30 amps that a device may need via a switch that can only carry 1 amp, you burn the 1 amp switch out quickly. The coil in the relay only needs say 0.5 amps to switch(from on to off or other way around) and it then switches the actual switch for the main power to the device.
This is what a relay is, and why they're used.

[getLuke]

When you wiggled it, did you feel it click.

Got it to fail this afternoon and when I wiggled it, I did not feel any click.

I changed the fuseboxes over tonight so will test it tomorrow.

[getLuke]

Well, so far so good. Fusebox replaced and there is power to the pump and the AUX circuit has not faulted, yet. Too early to say..

I had another fault occur which I thought was unrelated and should have mentioned, was the 3 amigos. The 3 amigos that read a fault: 13-04 pump failure 2 (pump no running when actuated).

I have never had the 3 amigos happen in the years I have owned it, but thought I'd tackle Option B once I fixed the starting issue.

It has now not come up. At least not today (it would at least once a day). So this makes sense if the fusebox was faulty and also effected the ABS relay along with the Fuel Pump and AUX relays.

If I don't post back here, it'll be case closed - fusebox.

Cheers for all the help, I'd shout you a beer at the local [thumbsupbig]

[sierrafery]

:BigThumb: That fusebox was very suspect from the beginning, i have a strong feeling that from now the problems described in this tread are history.

[getLuke]

If you were interested, here is the fusebox. Clear corrosion!

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