Long discussion on Large scale Battery technology

[PhilipA]

I came across this discussion of large scale battery technology on You tube.
I haven't looked at the whole thing but the dangers are highlighted from about 57Minutes to 1hour 20 minutes.
pv magazine Insight Australia 2021 | Part 1 - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A9B5M8qHQQ0)

Regards PhilipA

[AK83]

Yep!

So it seem that to 'save the world from an environmental catastrophe' .. we're running full steam ahead to create an environmental catastrophe!

Who remembers Bhopal? millions of potential Bhopals .. probably all going off at the same time, one day in the future. It's going to be inevitable.

Better batteries exist.

[prelude]

This has been known for quite a number of years for those paying attention. As I have grown older I have come to realize that in general the most popular solution is not necessarily the best. Look at the beta vs vhs "wars" the "better" (from a technical pov) technology lost to the cheap. Look at windows, the worst OS ever (certainly in the win95 days etc) still it was pushed well enough to win. etc etc.

Lithium is a nice solution for certain applications like my phone or laptop, but outside of that I am wary of the tech and it's potential for damaging the environment or people.

Lead acid has become hated and sure it has it problems, certainly if you want to build megawatt batteries but it's Recyclebility is unsurpassed.

Ah well, in case one still thinks that lithium is a great idea, look at this french bus. Not sure if you could get out alive in that kind of blaze!

Un bus electrique de la RATP prend feu en plein Paris - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=i8uat57R3DI)

Cheers,
-P

[Homestar]

I'll throw in my 2 cents based on what I'm currently doing for work - I'm involved with the development of hybrid power systems - batteries, solar and generators all working together to reduce fuel burn to a minimum, and packaging this so it's cost effective, reliable and sellable as a rental product - which is what our company is.

We've trialed both lithium and lead acid batteries in various sized units - the lead acid units have been in service for around 3 years now and the units we built have deteriorated to a point where they are becoming uneconomic to hire out, so we've bought them all back in for a refit - which is the removal of the lead acid and fitment of lithium, new charger/inverter, etc. The lead acid only has a usable life span of around 1000 to 1500 cycles @ 50% discharge - our units are generally doing between 7 and 10 discharge/charge cycles a week so bang on with what we are seeing in the reduced capacity of the batteries after around 3 to 3 1/2 years of doing this. The replacement batteries have at least a 3,000 cycle capacity @ 80% discharge - we are running them at 70% discharge and the first of these have done around 1,000 cycles now and show zero deterioration whereas we could clearly see the deterioration of the lead acid units at 1000 cycles. A 3 year life span of a product is not viable - we need at least 5 to 7 years, preferably 10, but there isn't enough data to show how long things are going to last yet.

This is just one aspect of a much bigger picture, but from where we sit and the equipment the industry is starting to demand, lithium is the only way to go. Biggest issues are supply and cost - we keep hearing these mythical statements about the price of batteries coming down, but it's going the other way at the moment and with global shortages, this is likely to keep driving prices up in the immediate future as well.

FYI - we have 1,200 watt hour, 9.6KWH and 45KWH battery systems currently with 24KWH and 96KWH systems in development as well - each has a different market segment, footprint and weight so it's not a one size fits all with this - we've customer built some really neat units to fit a specific market and have had awesome take up and acceptance with those customers.

When we were looking at some 200KWH systems the suppler said 'They have a fire suppression system in them' - to which I said they'd be better off with an alarm screaming 'Run away as fast as you can' - as this would be more effective on a 200KWH lithium battery pack than any fire suppression system could hope to be. :)

[NavyDiver]

I came across this discussion of large scale battery technology on You tube.
I haven't looked at the whole thing but the dangers are highlighted from about 57Minutes to 1hour 20 minutes.
pv magazine Insight Australia 2021 | Part 1 - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=A9B5M8qHQQ0)

Regards PhilipA
Fully agree Phillip. The issues with current gen Lithium. I have 2 RFX flow batteries as I was worried about that almost 10 years ago. solid-state battery are almost here and would remove fire and charge rate risk/limits in current Lithium. I think building allegedly big but really sub 60 minute full grid replacement is only valid if load balancing is the main aim.

The Fire at Tesla giant battery project near Geelong (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2021-09-28/fire-at-tesla-giant-battery-project-near-geelong-investigation/100496688)shows the weakness clearly. I only slow charge at home and leave super charging to outside away from home in my EV [biggrin]

Flow, Sodium and solid state batteries are all safer in so many ways. Large scalable, fast and cheap is probably still Flow batteries like this 2MWh one in USA sunny state (https://redflow.com/project/redflow-completes-2-mwh-installation-in-california). It was covered in your video at 1:40. Much Safer and large volume mentioned.

turn any up to GWh scale is possibly left for a new technology which some might not see as a battery like I do. World's biggest battery with 1,200MW capacity set to be built in NSW Hunter Valley at a mere $2.4bn is 1,200 megawatts. NSW could have RFX flow for a lot less I suspect and Zero fire risk[bigwhistle]

They are working on "Redflow working with US sustainable energy developer, Anaergia, on a potential new fully wrapped solar and 5.5 – 6.0MWh Redflow battery storage solution with Anaergia's subsidiary, SoCal Biomethane, at its Victor Valley plant in California" which may be over 8 bn + if Lithium was used.


Lithium work in my quirky MG Gav- not suggesting they are all a raging fire risk. It is a known and manageable risk until we have a better mobile solution like Hydrogen :)

[Vern]

I'll throw in my 2 cents based on what I'm currently doing for work - I'm involved with the development of hybrid power systems - batteries, solar and generators all working together to reduce fuel burn to a minimum, and packaging this so it's cost effective, reliable and sellable as a rental product - which is what our company is.

We've trialed both lithium and lead acid batteries in various sized units - the lead acid units have been in service for around 3 years now and the units we built have deteriorated to a point where they are becoming uneconomic to hire out, so we've bought them all back in for a refit - which is the removal of the lead acid and fitment of lithium, new charger/inverter, etc. The lead acid only has a usable life span of around 1000 to 1500 cycles @ 50% discharge - our units are generally doing between 7 and 10 discharge/charge cycles a week so bang on with what we are seeing in the reduced capacity of the batteries after around 3 to 3 1/2 years of doing this. The replacement batteries have at least a 3,000 cycle capacity @ 80% discharge - we are running them at 70% discharge and the first of these have done around 1,000 cycles now and show zero deterioration whereas we could clearly see the deterioration of the lead acid units at 1000 cycles. A 3 year life span of a product is not viable - we need at least 5 to 7 years, preferably 10, but there isn't enough data to show how long things are going to last yet.

This is just one aspect of a much bigger picture, but from where we sit and the equipment the industry is starting to demand, lithium is the only way to go. Biggest issues are supply and cost - we keep hearing these mythical statements about the price of batteries coming down, but it's going the other way at the moment and with global shortages, this is likely to keep driving prices up in the immediate future as well.

FYI - we have 1,200 watt hour, 9.6KWH and 45KWH battery systems currently with 24KWH and 96KWH systems in development as well - each has a different market segment, footprint and weight so it's not a one size fits all with this - we've customer built some really neat units to fit a specific market and have had awesome take up and acceptance with those customers.

When we were looking at some 200KWH systems the suppler said 'They have a fire suppression system in them' - to which I said they'd be better off with an alarm screaming 'Run away as fast as you can' - as this would be more effective on a 200KWH lithium battery pack than any fire suppression system could hope to be. :)I've done one with a 274KwH battery backed up by 100kw of solar and 4 x 8kw flywheels.
This had a fire suppression unit in it too.

As for batteries, we are finding, depending on brand, that the lead acid are getting between 3-10 years before they are cactus. We are also upgrading the systems with lithium at half the physical size, but more overall capacity. We really try not to do lead acid installs anymore.

[prelude]

Nice to read those experiences, however I remain somewhat sceptical about lithium and large scale batteries in general. The technology has a place, inside my phone or laptop but not outside of that.

Also, let's say you use 60% of a lead acid battery and it runs for 1500 cycles. The price, the recyclabilty of lead acid (nearly 100%) and the fact that in most stationary applications weight and size should not be a problem, what does lithium have to offer?

From what I can gather, the "lithium can use 80-100%" argument is invalid since, for instance, apple is already helping users get the most out of their batteries and warns them when the power goes below 20% and won't charge "till you need it" above 80%. It seems lithium prefers to live in that range for longevity... that's 60%. No real gains here. Add to that the fire risk and the way worse environmental impact of lithium the only real advantage is that they are somewhat better at charging and discharging.

So, I find it actually kind of sad to see that even large companies that do fixed installations are moving towards what is essentially a worse product (for the environment) only for (some?) financial gains...

-P

[BradC]

the recyclabilty of lead acid (nearly 100%)

For me this is the biggest key. There is no doubt about lithium as far as power density and cycle life compared to lead acid, but there's nobody that has come up with a viable methodology to recycle Lithium. Especially in large packs. Until that gets rectified, they're no better environmentally than long lived primary cells. Buy them, use them and chuck them away. Not unlike solar panels actually.

As far as mobile devices (phones, pads, laptops) I've not had any of my devices ever get to 1000 cycles with anything like 80% capacity remaining. I'm > 750 cycles on my current laptop, but only because I found a hidden setting in the hardware to limit the maximum charge to 75% and patched the OS to activate it.

Any battery will last longer when you look after it.

We need a better way to store energy, but due to its tolerance for abuse and ease of recycling lead acid still has the lowest environmental footprint in the long term.

[Homestar]

Also, let's say you use 60% of a lead acid battery and it runs for 1500 cycles. The price, the recyclabilty of lead acid (nearly 100%) and the fact that in most stationary applications weight and size should not be a problem, what does lithium have to offer?

-P

Not what we’re seeing in the real world at all - lithium is doing 70% discharge cycles on our units (we were doing 80% discharge but backed that off just to be on the cautious side) whereas the lead acid units we have are toast at 1500 cycles at 50% discharge so a huge difference from where we sit. Weight isn’t the key factor for our units - they weigh in at 1,450kg for the 45KWH packs so easy to move with our crane trucks, the same capacity lead acid units are over 3,000kg so still easy enough to move but we’d be limited to around a 10 metre reach at that weight. They are also twice the size for the same energy output and not much cheaper - they make no sense in our applications compared to lithium - that’s between 4.5KWH and 96KWH setups so not huge but not small either.

We’ve been doing the math carefully as no one wants to spend big dollars on something that won’t make a return - we’ve found lead acid is going the way of the Do Do and lithium is where it’s at - right or wrong at the moment that’s where the money is.

[prelude]

And is that old skool lead acid or have tests been done with say lead carbon? Seemingly these units resist the biggest factor in destroying lead acid; hard crystalization. Victron sell these units and they have had a fairly good run thus far but I do not have long term test data beyond 500 cycles of these type of units.

I still feel that if there is a way for lead-acid to work, it would still be better than going lithium... To be fair, -weight- is the biggest problem with touring rigs so for my overlander I have been grudgingly looking into lithium for one factor only, they ARE lighter.

-P

[cuppabillytea]

Not what we’re seeing in the real world at all - lithium is doing 70% discharge cycles on our units (we were doing 80% discharge but backed that off just to be on the cautious side) whereas the lead acid units we have are toast at 1500 cycles at 50% discharge so a huge difference from where we sit. Weight isn’t the key factor for our units - they weigh in at 1,450kg for the 45KWH packs so easy to move with our crane trucks, the same capacity lead acid units are over 3,000kg so still easy enough to move but we’d be limited to around a 10 metre reach at that weight. They are also twice the size for the same energy output and not much cheaper - they make no sense in our applications compared to lithium - that’s between 4.5KWH and 96KWH setups so not huge but not small either.

We’ve been doing the math carefully as no one wants to spend big dollars on something that won’t make a return - we’ve found lead acid is going the way of the Do Do and lithium is where it’s at - right or wrong at the moment that’s where the money is.
Have you considered Gelion Gav? It might be worth a little google search.

[Homestar]

Have you considered Gelion Gav? It might be worth a little google search.

Yep - we've looked at pretty much anything that is currently on the market, about to hit it or is in development. The Gelion cells have a very low energy density so you'd need around 3 times + as many batteries as what the top end LiFePO4 batteries can produce. The also have low discharge current limits so can't be hit hard like a lithium either. Not suitable in our application unfortunately. They would make very good fixed storage cells with controllable and known charge & discharge currents.

Was watching one of our the other day online go from 14 amps to 870 amps on the DC bus instantly - that would make quite a few other offerings crap their dacks pretty much instantly.

[cuppabillytea]

Yep - we've looked at pretty much anything that is currently on the market, about to hit it or is in development. The Gelion cells have a very low energy density so you'd need around 3 times + as many batteries as what the top end LiFePO4 batteries can produce. They aren't suitable for our application.
True. That is a major down side, but the could be good for power grid sinks.

[Homestar]

True. That is a major down side, but the could be good for power grid sinks.

Yep, they would make very good fixed setups. [thumbsupbig]

[prelude]

Ah well,

I guess I should not fuss about it :) Newer battery (or I should say energy storage) tech that will be a lot less destructive to the environment will step up to the plate soon enough I suppose? Just out of curiosity, do you have any test data on the "other" battery technology you have looked at? I love that kind of data!

Cheers,
-P

[Homestar]

Playing with one of our new batteries today. Think I need to invest in some insulated spanners - was a bit gun shy connecting this up today given the amount of stored energy in front of me. A bit of heatshrink on the spanner kept things safe… [emoji56]

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220701/94892a7e231a3fde1ac1a59a7bdec993.jpg

[NavyDiver]

I'll throw in my 2 cents based on what I'm currently doing for work - I'm involved with the development of hybrid power systems - batteries, solar and generators all working together to reduce fuel burn to a minimum, and packaging this so it's cost effective, reliable and sellable as a rental product - which is what our company is.

We've trialed both lithium and lead acid batteries in various sized units - the lead acid units have been in service for around 3 years now and the units we built have deteriorated to a point where they are becoming uneconomic to hire out, so we've bought them all back in for a refit - which is the removal of the lead acid and fitment of lithium, new charger/inverter, etc. The lead acid only has a usable life span of around 1000 to 1500 cycles @ 50% discharge - our units are generally doing between 7 and 10 discharge/charge cycles a week so bang on with what we are seeing in the reduced capacity of the batteries after around 3 to 3 1/2 years of doing this. The replacement batteries have at least a 3,000 cycle capacity @ 80% discharge - we are running them at 70% discharge and the first of these have done around 1,000 cycles now and show zero deterioration whereas we could clearly see the deterioration of the lead acid units at 1000 cycles. A 3 year life span of a product is not viable - we need at least 5 to 7 years, preferably 10, but there isn't enough data to show how long things are going to last yet.

This is just one aspect of a much bigger picture, but from where we sit and the equipment the industry is starting to demand, lithium is the only way to go. Biggest issues are supply and cost - we keep hearing these mythical statements about the price of batteries coming down, but it's going the other way at the moment and with global shortages, this is likely to keep driving prices up in the immediate future as well.

FYI - we have 1,200 watt hour, 9.6KWH and 45KWH battery systems currently with 24KWH and 96KWH systems in development as well - each has a different market segment, footprint and weight so it's not a one size fits all with this - we've customer built some really neat units to fit a specific market and have had awesome take up and acceptance with those customers.

When we were looking at some 200KWH systems the suppler said 'They have a fire suppression system in them' - to which I said they'd be better off with an alarm screaming 'Run away as fast as you can' - as this would be more effective on a 200KWH lithium battery pack than any fire suppression system could hope to be. :)

I heard of a UK business using Hydrogen Gensets on site which had verymany interesting aspects. One was uptime on large Diesel gensets was not that flash with failures a bit more than desirable. A very cool engineer who survived Vic bush fires 10 years ago was informative on that topic as well as getting me to buy a Disco

The second was they are here now. Just sadly not for me yet[biggrin]


"[B]LOXAM to hire out first hydrogen power generator, GEH2® by EODev_

25th march 2021_

LOXAM group, the equipment rental market leader, is continuing to pursue the environmental and energy transition of its equipment fleet towards low emissions by signing a partnership with the French specialist in hydrogen power solutions EODev (Energy Observer Developments). Always on the lookout for innovative powertrain alternatives to all-diesel or petrol, and with its committed environmental approach, LOXAM becomes the first rental company to offer this principle of zero emission temporary electricity generation offering a capacity of 100 kVA, with the new hydrogen power generator EODev–GEH2®.

"

The music festival and other events using this Hydrogen tech went off with out a hitch.

The company is making them is using Tojo fuel cells by the look of it. Website is interesting (https://www.eo-dev.com/)


One of the smaller ones IF the price was ok just might be a Business battery replacement/Borrowed for the boat? The 400kgs is not really suitable for my little boat alas

Edit. The Hornsadle Power Reserve (Tesla Big Battery in NSW) was fined $900,000 by Australian Energy regulator for NOT delivering promised capacity makes interesting reading I thought. Ontop of the fine they had to give back 3.4 million charged for power they did not deliver. Whoops?

[NavyDiver]

BlackRock to spend $1b on batteries in Australia as coal closures loom

https://static.ffx.io/images/$width_72%2C$height_72/t_crop_fill/q_86%2Cf_auto/744a786804b4da42856a965fea442edb1e4c4780By Nick Toscano (https://www.smh.com.au/by/nick-toscano-hvf8m)

August 16, 2022 — 12.00am













The world’s biggest fund manager, BlackRock, has selected Australia for the rollout of its largest investment in grid-scale batteries that will be crucial to driving the shift from coal to clean energy. link (https://www.smh.com.au/business/the-economy/blackrock-to-spend-1b-on-batteries-in-australia-as-coal-closures-loom-20220815-p5b9xo.html)


Black rock like musk will get Other peoples money to pay for things. Personally I love it partly and think it's a con at another level.


Big batteries are a short term fix for storage only. I think I would want a long term fix for a $billion.