Puma gearbox just exploded?

[Tikka7mm08]

Sitting on roadside in 08 Puma with 114k on clock and just done all oils 2k ago. Driving along at 100km/h when felt like brakes were suddenly applied.

Got to side of road just. In H neutral truck goes in reverse. Gearbox seems ****ed. Not sure what he has done to himself.

Booked a transporter and off to transmission man today.

FML.

[Tikka7mm08]

Sad sight.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220627/eca701b0e81f532bb9b3b9cab93c0f46.jpg

[BradC]

Bugger.

[Max Headroom 2.3m]

Ouch!. I'd be interested to know what the autopsy reveals.

[spudfan]

I don't think Puma Defenders have an inherent gearbox issue. We have 190,000 kms plus on one and all is fine so I'd be very interested to know what caused your problem.
I am not saying that this is the cause of your problem but if GL5 spec is used instead of GL4 spec in the main gearbox it can cause trouble. The GL5 spec reacts with some of the materials in the gearbox. If someone inadvertantly used the GL5 spec fluid this could be an issue.
Another possible cause could be if the gearbox was overfilled when the fluid is changed it can lead to overheating of the gearbox. Overfilling is where it is filled until it comes out of the filler plug hole. The correct amount is 2.2 litres. This is due to the slope on the engine and transmission components. I do not know if over filling the gearbox would lead to a catastrophic failure as you experienced but you do have very warm conditions over there and on a long journey or journeys with heat bouncing off the road etc it could be a factor.
Anyway I will be interested to know the cause.

[Robmacca]

Another possible cause could be if the gearbox was overfilled when the fluid is changed it can lead to overheating of the gearbox. Overfilling is where it is filled until it comes out of the filler plug hole. The correct amount is 2.2 litres. .

This is interesting as I've read this a few times before... I rang MR Automotive regarding this and they indicated to me that they actually fill the GB up to the lower filler hole when they do a service on the GB. The GB at this point holds 2.4>2.5ltrs. They said they don't have problems. There shouldn't be any pressure build up either I assume since the GB has a breather?

[ozscott]

Sad sight.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220627/eca701b0e81f532bb9b3b9cab93c0f46.jpgNothing sad about driving a D2... Cheers

[Tikka7mm08]

I filled the gearbox to an OCD 2.2L level and and pretty sure spec was right (will check) and it was only recently.

D2 is son's lifted V8. Enjoyed driving it to work today. Just did the steering pump - D2 thread - and ridiculously light compared to D90 and a much heavier vehicle.

[Tikka7mm08]

Oil drained and no sign of an issue. Was expecting pieces of metal! Dropping gearbox next week.

[davros]

Oil drained and no sign of an issue. Was expecting pieces of metal! Dropping gearbox next week.

Only familiar with series LR Gbox setup- but can you get the top cover off without taking it out? And presume the selector forks etc. move and the gear stick is free? No sticks or stuff on top of gearbox?
Like others I’ll be interested to see what’s up!
Good luck!
And where’d you get those Marsden-matting style sand-ladders?

[Tikka7mm08]

I'll report in as we know more...nothing worse than threads that the OP doesn't close out!

Not sure but all the gears are working selector wise. I think it is between the transfer case but we'll know more next week. Thinking if it isn't a replacement gearbox then I'll do the output shaft and clutch from LOF.

Ladders from LR Direct I think and Terrafirma. Trimmed 50mm off the ends so they fit and mounted with a rubber door stop cut in half, 8mm bolts from memory, and Thule locking things.

[DazzaTD5]

IMHO...
The MT82 6 speed gearbox in the Defender TDCi (2007 - 2016) are the strongest gearbox that's been in a Defender.
But as it is Ford (global) it's not immune to typical hit and miss build quality like so many other Ford parts.
I prolly only do 2 or 3 a year, I keep a rebuilt one in stock.

[Tikka7mm08]

IMHO...
The MT82 6 speed gearbox in the Defender TDCi (2007 - 2016) are the strongest gearbox that's been in a Defender.
But as it is Ford (global) it's not immune to typical hit and miss build quality like so many other Ford parts.
I prolly only do 2 or 3 a year, I keep a rebuilt one in stock.

Daz what $$ looking at for a replacement rebuilt box?

[davros]

I'll report in as we know more...nothing worse than threads that the OP doesn't close out!

Not sure but all the gears are working selector wise. I think it is between the transfer case but we'll know more next week. Thinking if it isn't a replacement gearbox then I'll do the output shaft and clutch from LOF.

Ladders from LR Direct I think and Terrafirma. Trimmed 50mm off the ends so they fit and mounted with a rubber door stop cut in half, 8mm bolts from memory, and Thule locking things.

Thanks for the ladder’s info!
And Tikka 7mm08. Nice bit of gear. I have some Sakos tucked up in the cabinet.

[Tikka7mm08]

12 hours to remove gearbox. Splitting tomorrow.

[Robmacca]

12 hours to remove gearbox. Splitting tomorrow.

A mate & I removed the TC recently and I had always thought would it be easier to remove the TC then the GB separately as it looked as though it would be a bit easier and better balanced when doing it on the concrete floor ??

[spudfan]

I am watching this with interest to see what the issue is that caused the problem.

[Tikka7mm08]

Heard from shop. The box locks up in any gear. Transfer seems ok tho. Brass chunks in it, not sure from what. Think syncro has gone. They haven't separated transfer box as has springs/ball bearings and they are worried they will do more damage...basically said this is looking beyond them. Going down now to have a look and grab photos.

[DazzaTD5]

12 hours to remove gearbox. Splitting tomorrow.

WHAT??? are you kidding? surely the workshop didnt say that?

omg... 2 hrs and the gearbox and transfer case is on the bench.
Ok, so if you dont know a Defender... call it 4 or 5 hrs.

[DazzaTD5]

Daz what $$ looking at for a replacement rebuilt box?

expect to pay round $5K is reasonable, most places (including me) do it on an exchange basis.

[Tikka7mm08]

expect to pay round $5K is reasonable, most places (including me) do it on an exchange basis.How hard would it be to ship one over to NZ?

[Tikka7mm08]

Yep 12 hours, got the bill.

So there is a copper/brass in the TC see pics. They haven't split the box yet but it is locked up in neutral shafts won't spin. They are worried about opening as spring and ball bearings?


https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220706/5d7801b60bc188411ab79d110b935ca3.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220706/d7a5b9a3a0b6ab42f3c84946bb63931d.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220706/0280929581b7dbe742d353075092a582.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220706/628de60e61c421aad6999fb6c5647094.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220706/4e53d3b496d333e5e6565ca90ae95b20.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220706/0a1ac235d5180873d70678e3decb9731.jpg

[Tikka7mm08]

The two 'hats' in the last photo house spring and ball bearing each apparently...

[Tikka7mm08]

Here:https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220706/74b82f428514d4fa11a742166c56a5dc.jpg

[DazzaTD5]

Yep 12 hours, got the bill.

So there is a copper/brass in the TC see pics. They haven't split the box yet but it is locked up in neutral shafts won't spin. They are worried about opening as spring and ball bearings?


https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220706/d7a5b9a3a0b6ab42f3c84946bb63931d.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220706/0280929581b7dbe742d353075092a582.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220706/628de60e61c421aad6999fb6c5647094.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220706/4e53d3b496d333e5e6565ca90ae95b20.jpg

The 4 pics above are nothing to do with the gearbox...
The 3 pics of the output shaft, this is the adaptor shaft between the gearbox and the transfer case, it can be done separately and normally the splines are flogged out at that 70K and on wards.
The other pic is the input side of the transfer case, the copper paste, n bits n pieces are the side shims from the centre diff lock, if its got say 100K on the clock you really dont need to rebuild the transfer case at this stage. Wipe it out, put a new seal in it, you can tap the centre shaft of the transfer case out a bit, clean it up and put some sealant around it. The retaining nut on the other side of the centre shaft quite commonly is loose.

so far no gearbox stuff.
I dont think its worth getting a gearbox freighted, is there not a indy Land Rover repairer in the whole of N.Z ?

[Tikka7mm08]

Yes no GN pics as still in one piece LOL. Thank you for that. I have arranged for it to go a specialist Landy guy. Will keep updated.

[Robmacca]

Yes no GN pics as still in one piece LOL. Thank you for that. I have arranged for it to go a specialist Landy guy. Will keep updated.

Curious... what was the condition of the Oil in The TC and in the GB?

[Tikka7mm08]

All good. Clean.

[spudfan]

IMHO...
The MT82 6 speed gearbox in the Defender TDCi (2007 - 2016) are the strongest gearbox that's been in a Defender.
But as it is Ford (global) it's not immune to typical hit and miss build quality like so many other Ford parts.
I prolly only do 2 or 3 a year, I keep a rebuilt one in stock.

The wife has been driving our 2008 Puma since new, so that seems to bear out the above statement!!

[Tikka7mm08]

I was a bit surprised to see a cable tie as part of the output shaft fixtures. I checked the manual and it is factory.

Once I know the scale of the problem - hopefully not a new gearbox - will order LOF clutch and output shaft. Probably not flywheel as factory one just needs resurfacing. Might get the slick shift too. Just don't want to spend a lot of money ordering stuff before I know what is broken and cost to replace.

[jon3950]

You might want to go for the Ashcroft version instead of the LOF output shaft. I've been trying to order one since March and they're still showing as out of stock. I've just fitted the Ashcroft one instead (with an LOF clutch).

Cheers,
Jon

[spudfan]

The output shaft looks to be in good shape. I do not see any signs of wear on it. Our 2008 Puma has just under 200,000 kms done and it is still on it's original output shaft. There seems to be no rhyme or reason as to why some fail and some do not. I suppose if you change it name while it is accessable it will give you peace of mind. I still await an out come to you investigations as to why the gearbox failed.

[Tikka7mm08]

I agree and thought it does look very good. The clutch on the other...springs almost falling out.

[DazzaTD5]

The output shaft looks to be in good shape. I do not see any signs of wear on it. Our 2008 Puma has just under 200,000 kms done and it is still on it's original output shaft. There seems to be no rhyme or reason as to why some fail and some do not.

I do believe you are confusing what jon (previous post) has mentioned and also me.
not possible for a 2008 with 200K to be on the original adaptor shaft or for it to have no wear on it.
Its not the agricultural course spline on the end that fit into the transfer case, it's the fine spline on the other end that flogs out. just seeing the fretted material (that brown grinding like dust) in your pics tells me its flogged.

If you go for the Ashcroft adaptor shaft you can also buy the ClutchFix HD1 clutch kit from them.
You can also get the ClutchFix clutch from LR Direct.

In the pic below you can see the wear and this isn't a bad one, as in it hasn't failed yet.

(P.S sorry confusing people, I ment tikka pics, posts, issues etc, but you get the idea)

[spudfan]

I do believe you are confusing what jon (previous post) has mentioned and also me.
not possible for a 2008 with 200K to be on the original adaptor shaft or for it to have no wear on it.
Its not the agricultural course spline on the end that fit into the transfer case, it's the fine spline on the other end that flogs out. just seeing the fretted material (that brown grinding like dust) in your pics tells me its flogged.

If you go for the Ashcroft adaptor shaft you can also buy the ClutchFix HD1 clutch kit from them.
You can also get the ClutchFix clutch from LR Direct.

In the pic below you can see the wear and this isn't a bad one, as in it hasn't failed yet.

(P.S sorry confusing people, I ment tikka pics, posts, issues etc, but you get the idea)

I am not suggesting that there is no wear on the output shaft on our 2008 Puma all I am saying is that the original shaft in still in place doing it's job. Others have had two or even three shafts fitted to their vehicle in this time/milage and the replacements have not lasted. Ours could fail tomorrow but as of now it is still doing it's job. I mentioned the output shaft as it is in good shape and though these do fail that is not the case here.
I understand the clutch fault but I thought this was in addition to the gearbox issue. Maybe I picked it up wrong. But if it were just the clutch, that is easily and straight forward to remedy but it was mentioned in one of the posts that there were "Brass chunks in it" (the gearbox) so that does not sound good and I'd be interested to find out what failed to cause the issue.
It does seem to be a one off as no one here seems to have experienced it. Sometimes it can be good to be a trail blazer but not,I would imagine, in a case like this. Like I said earlier I am interested to find out what failed in the gearbox.

[Tikka7mm08]

Hopefully find out tomorrow why the gearbox is rooted. I'm hoping the brass in the TC has done no damage. A friend has LOF clutch powerspec kit he said I could put in and order a replacement as he is waiting for a LOF output shaft.

Thought it was a good example of the Land Rover spirit.

Once I know we have a repair solution I'll order the Ashcroft output shaft. Is there anything I should get?

[Tikka7mm08]

Delayed til next week.

[spudfan]

More suspense than a Hitchcock film!

[spudfan]

This is from the Comma oil site.
Usually when vehicle manufacturers recommend a GL-4 gear oil, this is what should be used. We would not suggest the use of a GL-5 version in these cases. It may cause difficulty in changing gear or in some extreme cases can lead to not being able to change gear at all. Some OEMs will allow for both specifications to be used, however, generally GL-4 products are used in gearboxes and GL-5 in differentials.

[carpdvl]

Hopefully find out tomorrow why the gearbox is rooted. I'm hoping the brass in the TC has done no damage. A friend has LOF clutch powerspec kit he said I could put in and order a replacement as he is waiting for a LOF output shaft.

Thought it was a good example of the Land Rover spirit.

Once I know we have a repair solution I'll order the Ashcroft output shaft. Is there anything I should get?Anecdotally, my gearbox has just dumped all its oil. Now Im not saying it's definitely the Ashcroft adaptor shaft seals, but the two Indy mechanics I called this week both said it probably is.

The newer red version Ashcroft is better apparently (I have the second gen blue) BUT they both said they now fit the LOF solid one piece as it's a better solution.

Food for thought - I'm now in same boat as your mate waiting for the solid piece to come back in stock early August (1/2nd August I believe Luke said he'd have them in) to order and fit

[Robmacca]

Anecdotally, my gearbox has just dumped all its oil. Now Im not saying it's definitely the Ashcroft adaptor shaft seals, but the two Indy mechanics I called this week both said it probably is.

The newer red version Ashcroft is better apparently (I have the second gen blue) BUT they both said they now fit the LOF solid one piece as it's a better solution.

Food for thought - I'm now in same boat as your mate waiting for the solid piece to come back in stock early August (1/2nd August I believe Luke said he'd have them in) to order and fit


Curious... Did u check your GB breather is not blocked?

[Tikka7mm08]

Update. TC is all OK. Waiting to hear on gearbox.

LOF clutch order confirmed. Also think LOF output shaft is way forward.

Got a price for a refurbished box from Ashcroft sent to NZ...just in case.

[Tikka7mm08]

Haven't spoken to the garage yet but got a couple of invoices. This doesn't sound very good.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220830/08a4f0d489fdbc2c8b7f76e57eeaa658.jpg

[Max Headroom 2.3m]

Haven't spoken to the garage yet but got a couple of invoices. This doesn't sound very good.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220830/08a4f0d489fdbc2c8b7f76e57eeaa658.jpg

Commiserations! While the remedy is clear the cause isn't. Sounds like a reverse gear bearing failure? Any evidence of a gearbox oil leak?

[Tikka7mm08]

Commiserations! While the remedy is clear the cause isn't. Sounds like a reverse gear bearing failure? Any evidence of a gearbox oil leak?

No certainly wasn't leaking and happened on drive home after on hoist for warrant of fitness inspection...no problems seen.

[Tikka7mm08]

Update: Ashcroft refurbed gearbox ordered and probably still a few weeks away. Missed out on a LOF output shaft but Luke knew my situation with truck off the road so found one for me and sent it over.

[ashtrans]

Hi,

this is not a common failure, do you know how much oil came out when it was drained ?

Dave

[Tikka7mm08]

Update: LOF extreme clutch, output shaft and refurbed Ashcroft gearbox fitted. Very expensive exercise but drives brilliantly.

Got back from a month in the UK and happy to see the truck and dogs.https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20221028/6fc58fd056f34eb4f7bbaa5dc7d3237c.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20221028/b6fe7f4580e382997e9883a696804a0c.jpghttps://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20221028/acf596ffe8548f9b9a525f17b8d1e489.jpg