D2a TD5 Auto Cranking Battery

[AndrewMilne]

I am going to need a a new cranking battery (v-e-r-y!) soon.
On this forum, I've seen Optima batteries mentioned many times over the years, and would like to know which variant is most applicable as a cranking battery.
As far as I can glean, it seems that all Optima batteries are of AGM type.
Is that correct?

Is an AGM battery actually suitable for the main engine-starting application?

Would welcome any comments or advice on this!

Cheers,
Andrew

[DazzaTD5]

if you don't want to re-invent the wheel just put in the biggest good quality battery you can afford/get.
I've noted on this forum the CAT branded battery are quite popular.

[AK83]

I am going to need a a new cranking battery (v-e-r-y!) soon.
On this forum, I've seen Optima batteries mentioned many times over the years, and would like to know which variant is most applicable as a cranking battery.
As far as I can glean, it seems that all Optima batteries are of AGM type.
Is that correct?

Is an AGM battery actually suitable for the main engine-starting application?

Would welcome any comments or advice on this!

Cheers,
Andrew

Yep, Optima are AGM, the D2 charges them fine.
On the TD5, I've changed the single large N70ZZ battery type, to twin N70 sized batteries, one main and one aux battery.
Redtop for the main, yellow top(deep cycle) for the aux.
The Optima redtop has no issues cranking the TD5. Very easily and speedily. Has done so from new, and even still does considering it's half dead now.
Yellow top has been more durable than the redtop on the TD5.
IIRC they're about 4 or 5 years old now.
The TD5 is the brothers car, but I do 99.9% of the work on it, so it sometimes sits in my yard(sometimes weeks) while we wait for stuff, or time, or whatever.
One time, maybe a bit over a year ago, it sat for about 2 weeks, no charge(my bad) and when I got the chance to fix whatever it needed, the battery was totally dead(about 11 volts on it).

Since then, it's always lost charge if not topped up or driven. Hold charge for about a week(maybe 4 days).. but something in that range.
Yellow top on the other hand, is more OK. That I've seen so far, even in the two week period that half killed the redtop, the yellow held charge better(up at 12.1v).
I fitted a redarc VSRm and with that I've incorporated the easy push to jump start feature, but the redtop was so dead, all it did was drain the yellow top(ie. not enough to crank the TD5) .. so disconnected the redtop, jumper cable from the yellowtop, and vroom! ..

You wouldn't have issues starting if using a yellow top.

But! even tho technically the redtop is down to 60% SOH, and doesn't hold charge for any length of time(ie. 4+ days) ... in those 4 days it cranks the TD5 like it's a new battery! Really weird. Then on the 5th or more days(I think it depends on ambient temps maybe) .. it's dead.

[Slunnie]

I’ve always run the Blue Top D31M which is a 75ah. Very happy with this setup. It also has a fair bit more capacity that the Red Tops which are 50ah. This one can be used for starting or deep cycle although I tend to not deep cycle from it and use it mainly for just starting. Being a marine battery it also has additional terminals on the battery which are really handy!

[onebob]

if you don't want to re-invent the wheel just put in the biggest good quality battery you can afford/get.
I've noted on this forum the CAT branded battery are quite popular.

CAT - the best money I have ever spent on a battery. Came with a 7 year pro rata warranty and I got a 1000CCA so it’s never ‘stressed’ AND….. it is the same physical size as the standard 650CCA battery it replaced so no mods required to house it.

It was installed on 27 August 2012 - so in 55 days it’ll clock up 10 years continuous service to be then retired to the shed to work out its life giving a solar panel a purpose and powering the shed light.

[Rok_Dr]

I’ve had a good run out of Delkor batteries.

When I bought my D2a it had one fitted. Replaced it last year, 9 years after I bought the car. Not a bad run so I fitted another Delkor.

Which reminds me, it’s time for a 10 year update.

Cheers
Steve

[sierrafery]

Yep, Optima are AGM, the D2 charges them fine.

Maybe the D2 charges AGM "fine" but not well IMHO... AFAIK AGM batteries need higher(around 14,8) and more constant voltage for charge than the D2's alternator was designed for cos it was conceived for lead acid battery and works between 13.8 and 14.4V depending on the battery status... i'm with @DazzaTD5 on this, get a reliable and powerfull lead acid battery with long warranty and get done with it

i 100% sustain this explanation: https://workshoppist.com/car-alternator-charge-agm-battery/

[jwb]

My 2c worth... I didn't have a great experience with CAT. Less than 2 year old battery started losing charge. RACV gave me a test report which showed the degraded performance which I took to CAT.
CAT tested and said it's fine and refused to honour warranty.
I had an Exide from Costco ($130ish) as my auxiliary battery which I put in as the starter - smaller size than the standard D2 one and didn't expect it to be more than an interim but several years later it's still going strong.
Go figure

[johnp38]

Has anyone had any experience with the 1000CCA from this crowd ?

4WD Batteries Archives - Superstart Batteries (https://superstart.com.au/product-category/4WD-batteries/'ssb-cat=ssb-extreme)

Not promoting I am after feedback if any.

[sierrafery]

Has anyone had any experience with the 1000CCA from this crowd ?

4WD Batteries Archives - Superstart Batteries (https://superstart.com.au/product-category/4WD-batteries/'ssb-cat=ssb-extreme)

Not promoting I am after feedback if any.
You need a minimum 110AH battery, the high CCA is not enough on it's own

[sharmy]

AGMs are not designed to be used as starting batteries and while many do, they really should not be placed under the bonnet. They do not like too much heat and can swell up.

[johnp38]

AGMs are not designed to be used as starting batteries and while many do, they really should not be placed under the bonnet. They do not like too much heat and can swell up.

They are just plain starting flatteries as far as I can tell, can't see AGM anywhere.

[johnp38]

You need a minimum 110AH battery, the high CCA is not enough on it's own

I disagree coz I want to disagree even if you're correct ( I'm like that), it is a starting battery and has a good RC too, anyway what is a 'minimum' of 110AH mean to a mug like me, if it starts the car it is a good flattery as the alternator runs the car after that.

Only time I have ever had issues (in a different car) is aircon working with thermatics continually on in stop start traffic with a dud low output alternator, the battery was draining at the traffic lights and the driving in between wasn't enough to top it up. Ended up a very hot drive with aircon off.

A well tuned and behaving car doesn't need as much current to turn over as people believe.

But in my opinion always having a starting battery with overkill cca specs above manufacturer requirements and a good top up and float charge every so often leads to a very happy long lived unit.

[Tombie]

AGMs are not designed to be used as starting batteries and while many do, they really should not be placed under the bonnet. They do not like too much heat and can swell up.

Not true in any way shape or form.

You keep making these comments and they are totally incorrect.

There are specific “house” AGMs which aren’t fit for this purpose, then there are versions designed for exactly use under bonnet, cranking and stop/start.

Wet cells evap/boil off under bonnet also. Location of battery, airflow and operating environment all play a part.

[PhilipA]

I think the argument re high AH is more about the well known parasitic draw from the D2 system.

I have a smaller wet battery (750CCA) next to my turbo as a starting battery and it does go down to about 12.5 after only a few days. The biggest I could fit in the ARB cradle.

I had a Yellow top there but the cell nearest the turbo seemed to lose power as it would only charge to say 12.7 so I replaced it with a high quality( long warranty) Exide Extreme XDIN66HDMF.
So far about 2 years no problem.

I recommend the biggest physical and CCA wet battery that you can fit in the stock cradle which takes a 330MM long battery. The Exide Extremes seem quite good.

I have a pulse generator also on mine so that should reduce sulphation , and the Exide Extreme has anti sulphation additives.
I have an AGM in my stock cradle as house battery which is 130AH and seems to be good as it usually holds over 13 volts.
Regards PhilipA

[RANDLOVER]

Maybe the D2 charges AGM "fine" but not well IMHO... AFAIK AGM batteries need higher(around 14,8) and more constant voltage for charge than the D2's alternator was designed for cos it was conceived for lead acid battery..................

AGM's are SLA's (Sealed Lead Acid) I know as I went to Battery University, no really, BU-201a: Absorbent Glass Mat (AGM) - Battery University (https://batteryuniversity.com/article/bu-201a-absorbent-glass-mat-agm) [bigrolf]

[sharmy]

Not true in any way shape or form.

You keep making these comments and they are totally incorrect.

There are specific “house” AGMs which aren’t fit for this purpose, then there are versions designed for exactly use under bonnet, cranking and stop/start.

Wet cells evap/boil off under bonnet also. Location of battery, airflow and operating environment all play a part.

Ok, list all my totally incorrect comments and tell me which AGMs have "house" emblazed on them. I stuck an AGM under the bonnet to start my car so I could take it to my local battery dealer to replace a starter one that had failed failed. That's when I was told they should not be placed under the bonnet. Then there was a tv news report, when the fire brigade was called to a caravan park to hose down a super swollen AGM battery,
Cheers to you

[AK83]

.... Then there was a tv news report, when the fire brigade was called to a caravan park to hose down a super swollen AGM battery,
Cheers to you

It was more likely over charged, than heat affected.

[PhilipA]

I have had 2 AGMs next to my turbo and no swelling.
The stock cradle is in a cooler place than many other cars eg Toyotas so IMHO AGMs are OK there.
Some AGMs with only an AH rating should only be house batteries. Dual purpose ones will have AH and CCA on them.
Regards PhilipA

[Tombie]

Ok, list all my totally incorrect comments and tell me which AGMs have "house" emblazed on them. I stuck an AGM under the bonnet to start my car so I could take it to my local battery dealer to replace a starter one that had failed failed. That's when I was told they should not be placed under the bonnet. Then there was a tv news report, when the fire brigade was called to a caravan park to hose down a super swollen AGM battery,
Cheers to you

So…. Let me get this straight…

One bloke told you the AGM you fitted to go to a dealer wasn’t right? Then at a caravan park a swollen AGM battery caused a fire.

And that’s enough info for you to claim fact?

Let’s just use our vehicles for a case:
Every D4 / RRS from 2008 has an AGM under the bonnet factory.
Every earlier D3 if it needed a battery under warranty had the Wet Calcium replaced with an AGM.

Now let’s look at a comment from Redarc…
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220705/1fd1895567dc4d9ac10e656a77402cf2.png

Note the word SOME…… some are designed for under bonnet use and some are not, just like some other constructions aren’t either…. It’s all up to casing design as to weather or not they can.


Optima, Odyssey, Varta, SSB all make batteries that state they can be fitted under bonnet.

Others, like the ones in my Camper - are “House only” and their case construction is lighter and not heat rated. And this is clearly stated in their documentation.

Here’s SSBs document - note they rate for Underbonnet use
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20220705/aa6898e6f0a6c49af7ba12265536a9b0.png


Take it as an extension of your knowledge.

[sharmy]

I stand corrected, you went to a lot of trouble to prove me wrong. I thought you may have mellowed over the years but you are still the same arrogant ***** you were previously. I spent probably the same time it took you to post your long winded answer to work out how to spell arrogant.

John[bigsmile1]

[AK83]

That's a bit rough!

You got 'corrected' ... hopefully you learned something from it. And that is, not to always believe the bloke trying to sell you something.
They told you not to do something, that's perfectly acceptable to do, not because it was the wrong thing to do, but to scare you into believing some garbage, so they can sell you a battery that you don't need.
(assuming the AGM you used wasn't this 'house' type AGM, not designed to be used in a car).

And then to personally attack someone that has possibly helped in some way ... I don't get it!

[sharmy]

He did not just correct me he was rude. I'm over it and I suspect Tombie is too.
John

[sierrafery]

And that is, not to always believe the bloke trying to sell you something.

100% agree with that, especially if somebody wants to sell you a AGM battery to fit it in a vehicle with a rudimentary charging system designed for "classic" flooded battery, IMO the D2's charging system is not up to AGM requirements... that's why "AGM" must be selected on chargers too for them, i'm not against AGM, i just say that they are not good for a D2

[AK83]

100% agree with that, especially if somebody wants to sell you a AGM battery to fit it in a vehicle with a rudimentary charging system designed for "classic" flooded battery, IMO the D2's charging system is not up to AGM requirements... that's why "AGM" must be selected on chargers too for them, i'm not against AGM, i just say that they are not good for a D2

But what if the specs on the AGM claim that 'rudimentary' charging is acceptable? Still no?

In my experience with at least the yellow top Optima, there is no problem.
While the redtop has appeared to be affected, this is more likely due to product failure, rather than the fact it's connected to the D2.
The yellowtop and redtop are fitted in the same area(old battery setup removed for the dual), and both fitted at the same time.

[sierrafery]

But what if the specs on the AGM claim that 'rudimentary' charging is acceptable? Still no?
If that's staed on the battery then no probsI know that many D2 owners had good experience with the yellow top but that doesnt mean to me that AGM batteries in general are good for a D2. If you have a smart charger with AGM function do you select it or not if you put an AGM to charge? If you do then think that the D2's aternator has no such function

[AK83]

I understand what you're saying, not really disagreeing, but I guess pointing out some relevant info.

Theoretically, and maybe long term, an AGM in a D2 should be totally fine, if you look at what the charge rate is supposed to be for a 'generic' AGM(that is, not specific to one brand or model of AGM).
Had a quick look at a couple of well known charger manuals, and they have an overall consensus: that is, an AGM starts off at a higher voltage than a std D2 alt can supply. No disagreement there.
But once charged and voltage is stable, the AGM then gets charged just like any other SLA.. that is float charge is down to 13.8(ish) volts.

Think about the usual way you would drive a D2 that seemingly can't provide for an AGM. You start, drive and then it settles to a regular float charge after some time for the AGM.

But, for an AUX battery, the AGM doesn't make sense .. in that most aux batteries are used in a way where they will be required to use up a lot of their charge(ie. deeply discharged), and this is where the AGM kind'a makes no sense in a D2, as the D2 can't properly recharge the aux AGM .. deep cycle or not. In this instance you are correct .. AGM really shouldn't be used in a D2, maybe without a DC-DC charger that charges AGM correctly.

BUT!! .. this is all postulation and hypotheticals .. and not always reflective in the real world.

I personally haven't seen it pan out as the theory(or proposal) says it should.
In fact totally opposite in that the much used deep cycle battery(yellow) is holding up fine in the D2, but the red main/starter id deteriorate after a couple of years. They are now both in the 5 year old range, with many charge typical cycles under their belts(ie. they got used for their intended purposes. Due to lockdowns, the D2 did need to sit for a short time with no usage(I think maybe about 4 weeks or so), and this is what killed the redtop(but note, NOT the yellow top).
After the prolonged no use situation, the redtop doesn't hold charge for more than a few(maybe 4-ish), where it used to hold for a couple of weeks no problem.
It cranks the TD5 like it's new tho, belying it's lessened state of health .. so you wouldn't think the redtop is not 100%.

Having fitted a std century in my Tdi tho, the exact opposite has been true. IMO, a totally useless battery .. fine when about 6 months new, but then it simply fails to provide enough cranking power unless it's above about 20°C or so.
So while the Tdi is same old world tech as the D2, in that not really suited for AGM battery types ... my gut feeling is that I reckon it'll be better to do so(based on actual experience, rather than theoretical understanding).
Due to the probable lesser quality that many are recently reporting out of their Optimas, I reckon I'll give SSB a try next time around.

[Four Loko]

I have had one of these in for 2 years so far

iTECH1420CA Lithium Car Battery 12V Stop Start 1420amp 60Ah– iTechworld (https://itechworld.com.au/collections/12v-lithium-cranking-batteries/products/1420ca-12-volt-lithium-battery-itech1420-cranking)


can hold it up with one finger gotta shave weight were you can, but it was a lot cheaper when I bought it back then and on sale.

[RANDLOVER]

......................
Due to the probable lesser quality that many are recently reporting out of their Optimas, I reckon I'll give SSB a try next time around.

I found the yellow tops were good when made in the US, the now made in Mexico not so much.

[shack]

Has any one got a link to an HVT-50D specs sheet?

I can only find basic info on the battery case stating max charge of 14.4 volts and 15 amps?

That's seems to be different to what has been stated on this thread about AGM.

[slug_burner]

I purchased a D31A yellow top as an aux battery for an outback trip. On return it has had various duties from sitting without a maintenance charger for 18 months and then as a starter battery in a D2a. While in the D2 it was drained down to the stage where it would not crank the car. Put on a charger and all good once again. After 16 years it finally had a cell go bad as it got hot while on a charger. I would have no problem, other than the cost, with using an Optima Yellow Top D31A as a starting battery on a D2.

[Tombie]

He did not just correct me he was rude. I'm over it and I suspect Tombie is too.
John

If you read my post and assumed rudeness that was a misinterpretation of my post.

I simply highlighted the incorrect information and referred you to correct data.

On a forum, correcting misinformation is important else it can be taken as gospel and myths perpetuate.

Agree 100% I’m a total ***** [emoji41]

[sharmy]

Agree 100% I’m a total ***** [emoji41][/QUOTE]

There you go Tombie I'm not always wrong[smilebigeye] (thanks for not taking too much offence )

John

[AndrewMilne]

Thanks to everyone who took the time to post their thoughts in reply to my initial question.

Some posts have reminded me of certain domestic conversations, in that I seem to have stimulated argument that I wasn't looking for and didn't expect!
They also show that there is a lot of accumulated experience and knowledge on this forum (as well as some strong opinions!)

In the end, I went for a conventional "flooded"-cell 1000 CCA cranking battery.
120 Ah and RC 205 minutes.
The previous one was coming up for 4 years old, and was getting pretty "doughy" if the car had not been used for 5 days or more.

Also decided to replace my 6-years-old Auxiliary AGM battery with a deep-cycle 90 Ah AGM.
This is mounted lying on its side, terminals uppermost, on the SLS air-compressor shelf that is otherwise vacant on my vehicle.
Picture attached.

My cranking battery is in the standard location, so I was reminded to check the red injector-loom plug on the ECU.
It had been 4 years since I did this, and I found a fair bit of oil to clean out with contact cleaner.
Another job done!