Empathy. Are we born with it?

[BradC]

I've had a couple of large gatherings in the last couple of weeks where a group of dads that have been to hell and back congregated and consumed excessive amounts of anesthetic.
One was a private function, so we didn't have to deal with the odd twonk, and the other was effectively a pub crawl.

On the pub crawl, and frankly in people I've come into contact with over a protracted period of time I've encountered what can best be described as selfish people with no empathy who really needed putting in their place.

Looking at it from another angle, I'm doing work in some pretty dicey towns with severe crime problems, and the incidents in question are directly related to both a lack of connection between the action and empathy for the victim and no sense or care of consequence for the perpetrator. The TokTok challenge of "break into a house and film yourself touching or beating an occupant" is a fun one that leaves a wake of trauma behind.

I suppose my question is, was I born with a sense of empathy that allows me to look at that person and want to nail them into the ground, but then don't because I empathise with what that might do to them, or is that something my parents instilled in me?

This directly relates to the gradual degradation I see on a day to day basis (like the Principal who can't face coming back to school because he had the snot beaten out of him by a gorilla 15 year old.... twice .... the kid is still at school and the Principal is on leave and in therapy ). Is the kid born broken, are we all born that way and taught otherwise and his parents didn't, or are most of us ok but he's an anomaly? Is "society to blame" ?

It's complex and I don't understand it.

[trout1105]

I must be a nasty bastard because I am unable to empathise with thugs and criminal's, Never have and most likely never will.
Anyone doing it tough or struggling is a totally different matter.

[BradC]

I must be a nasty bastard because I am unable to empathise with thugs and criminal's, Never have and most likely never will.
Anyone doing it tough or struggling is a totally different matter.

That's an interesting perspective, and not one I'd considered. How can you empathise with someone when the social perspective is completely different? I can empathise with my neighbour who got beaten up by an intruder. I can't empathise with an intruder that was injured in the process of breaking into a house.

Does the intruder deserve my empathy? Do his mates empathise? If someone breaks into my house to steal money for food, are they more deserving of empathy than the kid who breaks in looking for money for drugs?

[NavyDiver]

That's an interesting perspective, and not one I'd considered. How can you empathise with someone when the social perspective is completely different? I can empathise with my neighbour who got beaten up by an intruder. I can't empathise with an intruder that was injured in the process of breaking into a house.

Does the intruder deserve my empathy? Do his mates empathise? If someone breaks into my house to steal money for food, are they more deserving of empathy than the kid who breaks in looking for money for drugs?



Its a interesting topic Brad. I can empathize with people with metal health issues despite tossing them out for abusing or similar. While I empathize I think mitigation is not an excuse for bad behavior.

The selfish violent action of beating up your neighbor is not excused by any reason. Some one asking for food or shelter I do empathize with much more than ******* trying to steal it[biggrin]

There is a point were a few peoples actions do not allow any consideration I think. Happily while those few are loud and in our faces and in the media there is not that many of them.

A running site I am on has people asking how we can carry firearms at the moment I suspect due to the horrible issue in Canada. Fear is reasonable. I think its better not to let fear make us assume more than a few are the people who do not deserve much or any empathy.

Very anti adding more metal to my running kit other than the titanium I have reinforcing parts of me[biggrin]

[trout1105]

I would say that 99.99% of people have empathy for others, It's in our genetic makeup.
However the ever increasing use of mental health, drugs and alcohol abuse as a justifiable excuse for criminal and violent behaviour isn't "Empathy" it is simply a **** weak excuse for bad behaviour.

[Tombie]

Someone breaking in to steal food for their family. - if you feel for them is Sympathy not empathy.

Empathy is to share the feelings of another - so you too would need to be starving or of similar situation.


So 2 drop kick druggies could have empathy

[prelude]

Autism, and specifically what we used to call Aspergers has also increased drastically over the decades. (there are suggestions that we caused that but we have not firm evidence yet afaik)

Empathy is very low with such people since the "connection" between feeling and thinking is low or slow.

I think in the basis empathy should be best described as the ability to place yourself in someone else's emotions. Humans have 5 basic emotions when grown up but as a baby you have only two. Unhappy and Happy. Those are your basic emotions and almost all your actions flow from these two. Hence the dopamine (happy) addiction of social media and instant gratification. That contributes to how people develop and hence the actions they will take. ie if your emotions are not properly developed you can't have proper empathy. You can express your condolences as many times as you like and mean it too, but until you yourself have lost a loved one, it is just not the same.

Not a shrink here but I have some experience with both :)

Cheers,
-P

[trout1105]

I have been on the bones of my arse, I have faced the "Black Dog", I have lost family and friends and I have been in violent situations and this is why I have empathy for others in simmilar situations.
Having said that I have NO empathy whatsoever for arseholes, the self entitaled and nasty bastards.

[BradC]

Someone breaking in to steal food for their family. - if you feel for them is Sympathy not empathy.

Empathy is to share the feelings of another - so you too would need to be starving or of similar situation.

Actually, I think you have that the wrong way around.

Sympathy involves understanding from your own perspective. Empathy involves putting yourself in the other person's shoes and understanding WHY they may have these particular feelings.

Empathy : "My D3 crankshaft broke". "Man, that's crap. I hear that happens from time to time and I really feel for you".
Sympathy : "My D3 crankshaft broke". "Man that's crap, mine did too so I know how you feel".
Toyota Driver : "My D3 crankshaft broke". "Suck it up man, you should have bought a Toyota". Neither Sympathy, nor Empathy.

[jonesfam]

I think empathy can be learned, at least to some degree.
We have 4 special needs kids, all different & all with various amounts of Empathy.
One boy who has autism (high function) had terrible anger problems when things did not go his way. It has taken many years, but he has been taught to 1. Control his temper 2. To see things from the other persons point of view. This took a long time & and many stories of how everybody is different & everybody has a different reaction to events & that we/he has to understand that not everybody thinks like he does. He still has some problems but thinks now before he reacts.
Another boy, was totally impulsive, didn't care if what he did endangered himself or others & could not understand why we got upset if he jumped from a second story balcony. It does not help that he has no "Fear" impulse. After much training, talking & some demonstrations he has learnt not to do things that may hurt others. Does he have empathy? He still does some insane things, but he doesn't tackle his brother off a moving bike anymore because he knows, now, it might hurt him. He still forgets that every action has a consequence sometimes but actually thinks before he does stuff now.
Yet another boy, always totally loving, calm never upset. Loves the dogs, askes if I/we are OK when he hears me swear, just wants to please us all the time. Gets why we get upset at the other kids sometimes & askes how he can help. Is that empathy?
I try to understand how our kids think, I can't. It is just so different. They are all good kids (young adults now) but because of their issues they all think differently & though they have learned to try to see why others aren't like them I don't know if they understand how others feel or we have taught them to control their reactions & behavior with others.
So is empathy a learnt behavior or not?
Wish I knew!
Jonesfam

[DiscoMick]

I think it's easier to have sympathy for someone who has had bad experiences than it is to have empathy and actually share the person's feelings.

[Saitch]

I think it's easier to have sympathy for someone who has had bad experiences than it is to have empathy and actually share the person's feelings.

I reckon your close here, DM. One could show varying levels of sympathy towards someone else's 'Experience', but one's level of empathy may perhaps be lessened or heightened, by one's personal attitude, reaction to, or handling of the same experience.

[WhiteD3]

Are you born with it? I think yes.

My wife is an empath which is great for those around her needing support and understanding. Her immediate family were not. Its bad for her as the door to her inner self is wide open, in fact there is no door, its just a bloody big hole in her that lets everything in, good and bad.

Me, I'm at the other end of the spectrum. I can empathise with people but generally only if they are deserving (or maybe blameless). Maybe I'm some sort of low level sociopath. My mother is worse than me and I suspect others down the lineage are the same.

But....you are not one thing or another, you're a mix of good and bad, practical and not, traits. The trick is to know your strengths and weaknesses. My remoteness is tempered by her empathy.

[NavyDiver]

I reckon your close here, DM. One could show varying levels of sympathy towards someone else's 'Experience', but one's level of empathy may perhaps be lessened or heightened, by one's personal attitude, reaction to, or handling of the same experience.
Our own bias impacts on all aspects of our lives. A new 'tosser of the week' in CA is not showing empathy to a judge who showed a lot of empathy for a unknown criminal pest.

Must admit I have a lack of empathy at times [bighmmm] In some instances Legally forced ignorance is a mitigating circumstance for a lack of empathy?

[trout1105]

Our own bias impacts on all aspects of our lives. A new 'tosser of the week' in CA is not showing empathy to a judge who showed a lot of empathy for a unknown criminal pest.

Must admit I have a lack of empathy at times [bighmmm] In some instances Legally forced ignorance is a mitigating circumstance for a lack of empathy?

I am sorry Navey But Personally I Truly believe that "Kiddy Fiddlers" are NOT deserving of anyones Empathy or Sympathy as what they do is pure evil and are completely deserving of our wrath and anger NOT our Empathy, Sympathy or even Pity.

[NavyDiver]

I am sorry Navey But Personally I Truly believe that "Kiddy Fiddlers" are NOT deserving of anyones Empathy or Sympathy as what they do is pure evil and are completely deserving of our wrath and anger NOT our Empathy, Sympathy or even Pity.

Don't be sorry. Love the way your thinking

More than a few would happily volunteer to end that threat with a terminal outcome if it was legal. Its not legal thus my tosser of the week directed to a Judge who allowed the person out of jail to continue to be 'a significant' threat to children.

[DiscoMick]

I have a relative who is a magistrate. He tries to find ways to encourage people to make better decisions and change their lives. Some respond well, while others make promises, but break them. He has gaoled some.
Judges can't predict the future. Prison rarely reforms people, but may reinforce their negative side. It's just human nature.

[ChookD2]

Don't be sorry. Love the way your thinking

More than a few would happily volunteer to end that threat with a terminal outcome if it was legal. Its not legal thus my tosser of the week directed to a Judge who allowed the person out of jail to continue to be 'a significant' threat to children.

The number of judges that give these people (and I use that term very very loosely) bail or sentences that are entirely suspended or significantly inadequate, makes me wonder what the .... umm.... recreational activities of these judges are.

[BradC]

The number of judges that give these people (and I use that term very very loosely) bail or sentences that are entirely suspended or significantly inadequate, makes me wonder what the .... umm.... recreational activities of these judges are.

Sometimes I think when they've climbed the ladder to those heights the oxygen deprivation starts to impair their judgement.

[trout1105]

The number of judges that give these people (and I use that term very very loosely) bail or sentences that are entirely suspended or significantly inadequate, makes me wonder what the .... umm.... recreational activities of these judges are.

IF that is the case then they would most certainly "Empathise" with these people and in this particular situation Empathy is NOT a great idea [bigwhistle]

[DiscoMick]

Not defending it, but the idea of a suspended sentence is to give the person a chance to prove they really meant the nice story they told the judge. Do wrong and you're automatically in deep doo, but do right and you're on the road to being reformed. It actually works in many cases, but we only hear about the failures.

[3toes]

Empathy is in all of us at some level from birth. It is then nurture that either push’s it forward as a trait or chokes it off. Nature can come from a number of direction it does not have to be immediate family.

The older the person the harder although not impossible it is to bring out this trait in people. Why it is so important to give kids the best from wherever it can be it can be supplied as this can counter family which potentially makes life ‘better’ for them and society. If you do not have enough of it there is a medical term for this

[Saitch]

If you do not have enough of it there is a medical term for this

In a lot of cases brought on by today's society, the term which could be coined is "Realismitis'.