Lithium Crank Battery

[Garry]

Has anyone had any long term experience with a lithium crank battery? My D90 OEM one has thrown the towel in after 9 years of torturous service and looking at upgrading to lithium, the 2 aux batteries will follow in afterwards. Mainly for the weight saving benefits as most likely 100kgs of lead in there with the 3 of them.

Thanks

Garry

[jbe]

I don't have any experience with Lithium batteries, but have a look at Stefan Fischer's Alloffroad Youtube channel. There are quite a few videos on Lithium batteries which he uses in his cruiser as crank and auxiliary batteries. He's been using them for years now. This should give you a good overview.

[Robmacca]

I don't have any experience with Lithium batteries, but have a look at Stefan Fischer's Alloffroad Youtube channel. There are quite a few videos on Lithium batteries which he uses in his cruiser as crank and auxiliary batteries. He's been using them for years now. This should give you a good overview.


I've been watching his setup and after a few tweaks, etc it seems to be working but I assume the cost outlay is huge in his setup and to be honest, he has not had the system long enough in my opinion to say Yes or No. He recently changed his under bonnet batteries to more modern ones so that puts back to square one in regards to longevity...
He also has 2 in parallel under the bonnet and I don't know if that is so the built-in BMS of the 2 lithium batteries can handle the starting current & winch current?

Lithium would be a great way to go a Defender as the battery is away from the heat of the engine, but again u would need to weigh up cost vs longevity.
The OP said he got 9yrs out of your previous battery and that's huge, so how much more life would u get out of a lithium battery & what is the purchase price difference?
If weight is the main reason, then fair enough....

[Homestar]

Just a couple of things to be aware of:-

Lithium battery sales are a mine field and there's a lot of snake oil salesman out there and every ad on line will tell you how great their are - but there's a tonne of crap out there as well. When you are looking at specs, make sure they show not just the max charge current but the duration for this as well - some might say max charge current of 140 amps but that's only for a second or so and damage will occur quickly in the event the battery is drained down on an extended crank cycle. Also you'll need to find the max operating temp for the battery as Lithium doesn't like heat - Even under the seat the battery compartment in a Defender isn't the coolest place in the world - you may just need to ensure good ventilation and maybe a heat shield etc.

If you get it right you should get years of use from one, just don't believe the hype on any given brand - make sure it has the runs on the board in real world conditions before laying out your hard earned.

[scarry]

Two mates have them in LC's.

One was under bonnet,auxillary only, in a 79,sits rear of engine bay,battery would trip out on ambients over 40 degrees,on occasions.
Relocated to rear canopy,all good.Had the set up for probably 3 years.

Another has the two 130 Ah in the front,underbonnet, of a LC200,one starter,one auxillary,with a Victron set up.No issues,he uses a coffee maker,etc when camping,loves the set up,but it was very expensive,around $4K fitted from memory.The Victron lets the starter to be used,when engine off, as well,until it drops down to a set voltage,similar to Traxide set up for AGM,etc.

LC doesnt have a smart alternator which suits Lithium more than some other modern vehicles such as LR's.
Sure they save weight,but the cost is quite high,and as for the life of the Lithiums,we will have to wait and see i suppose.

[Garry]

I have PM'd a guy who put one in 5 years ago also so will see what he has found with the lithium battery, the picture showed the battery was about half the size,

Thanks for the replies so far and yes its the heat I worry about too as do a lot of summer driving.

Garry

[BreakingBad]

I've also been considering Lithium for some time now. Mainly for weight saving but also the capacity for given battery size.

My 12v needs are simpler than most as I have PTO winch so only require Start and Aux for fridge/freezer and camp lights.

I have put off purchasing because none offered low temp charge protection meaning a snow camping trip could potentially cause issues when I start the car the next morning and the batteries try to charge in sub zero temps.

Interested in thoughts on that scenario.

[drivesafe]

Hi Garry, and as been mentioned by Homestar and scary, you need to be very careful of the info about about lithium battery “Drop-Ins”.

First off, does your Defender have a SMART alternator. This will depend on its age.

If you have a SMART alternator, then and contrary to the B/S used to sell lithium “Drop-In” batteries, you will not be able to charge them properly, when around town, and on long trips, you can end up with flat lithium batteries after a long days drive.

Most of the advertising for these batteries shows how well they work in Toyotas, and with good reason.

Toyotas in Australia, do NOT have SMART alternators.

In the USA, Toyotas now have SMART alternators but in Australia, they still have the old Variable Voltage alternators.

You can successfully charge lithium batteries with a Variable voltage alternator because the voltage never gets down to a lithium battery’s settled voltage of 13.3v.

With any vehicle fitted with a SMART alternator operation, not just Land Rovers, the alternator voltage, particularly on a long constant drive, will drop way below 13.3v.

Any time the alternator voltage drops below 13.2v, you will then be DISCHARGING your lithium batteries as the vehicle’s power will draw energy from the device providing the highest VOLTAGE.

So below 13.2v, your alternator will literally be freewheeling and your lithium batteries will be powering your vehicle.

Some of you may remember a few years back, a D4 that was used to promote a lithium battery setup.

Well this vehicle has been continually suffering with flat batteries after long drives but also has had at least one battery failure, most likely caused by it being run flat all the time.

The only effective way to charge lithium batteries in a vehicle with SMART alternator operation is to either by deactivateing the SMART alternator function, which you can NOT do in any Land Rover, or use a DC/DC device to charge the auxiliary lithium battery, but you will not charge a lithium cranking battery properly.

[HardCharger]

Are the alternators fitted on the Pumas the "Smart" kind? I always thought they were old school types? Just wondering :BigThumb:

[drivesafe]

Are the alternators fitted on the Pumas the "Smart" kind? I always thought they were old school types? Just wondering :BigThumb:
By about 2008, all Land Rovers were supplied with SMART alternators.

The D3s were the first, but everything else followed.

[loanrangie]

So that begs the question Tim, are you working on a Traxide DCDC suitable for LR's ?

[Garry]

Well Looks Like I learned something today, its a 2013 2.2 Puma and if it has a smart alternator, maybe its not the way to go after all, due to my work commitments it does not get driven too much of late and I don't want to be chasing my tail with battery issues. I will see how the aux batteries pull up after they were discharged a few weeks ago at the mechanics, those too are 9 and 10 year old FullRivers so had a very good run from the lead lumps, just heavy.

All that being said has anyone got a part number for the replacement Varta battery? Their website is not the most helpful.

Thanks for all the honest answers

Garry

[Robmacca]

By about 2008, all Land Rovers were supplied with SMART alternators.

The D3s were the first, but everything else followed.

I've got a 2010 Defender 110 and I can say that it does not have a Smart Alternator. The Alternator quite often charges at 14.4v and I've never seen it below 13.5.

It was my understanding that ALL Puma Defenders do not have Smart Alternators... Happy to be corrected...

[drivesafe]

I thought the last of the Pumas were equiped with SMART alternators.

But I too will stand corrected.

[Dorian]

I thought the last of the Pumas were equiped with SMART alternators.

But I too will stand corrected.

Hi Tim,
You might need to stand.
I don't know if my alternator is "smart".
I have a late 2012 defer and the battery voltage sits around 14.4 - 14.6v while driving.
Using cheaper led voltmeters so they maybe 0.1 or 0.3 of a volt out but have checked against my fluke and they are not more than that.


Cheers Glen.

[scarry]

So that begs the question Tim, are you working on a Traxide DCDC suitable for LR's ?

So how do you go with an Aux lithium in something like a New Defender,as it will have a smart alternator,to get it fully charged?

I suppose a Lithium crank battery is out of the question?

[drivesafe]

So how do you go with an Aux lithium in something like a New Defender,as it will have a smart alternator,to get it fully charged?

I suppose a Lithium crank battery is out of the question?
For those with Pumas and they know the voltage is constant at around 14+v, you can easily fully charge a set of lithium batteries. One as a cranking battery and one ( or more ) as an auxiliary battery.

The only problem is that you MUST separate them when you turn the ignition off.

This crap they peddle, where they use a device to separate them when the voltage drops below 12.7v or what ever, is a recipe for disaster.

A lithium battery at 12.7v is almost flat and will have as little as 10% of its capacity left.

As long as you don't go near the vehicle, this would be OK to start the motor, but if you are camping for a few days and your isolator separates the batteries at 12.7v, with the little amount of battery capacity that remains, you only have to open the doors a few times, and you will have a flat cranking battery.

Even with my isolators isolating the cranking battery when it has 50% capacity. I have lost count of the number of times customers have rung up saying they had a flat cranking battery after camping over a weekend and they had to jump start off the auxiliary battery.

The first thing I ask is do they have your children, and almost every time, the answer is yes.

My next question is how many times did they go to the fridge in the vehicle.

The answer is "Lots of times, but the fridge is running off the auxiliary battery, isn't it?"

And my answer is " Yes, but your door switches and interior lights are powered by the cranking battery and is the reason you had a flat cranking battery.

The penny drops.

That's with a cranking battery left with 50% so how long will a battery with only 10% last????????

[drivesafe]

So that begs the question Tim, are you working on a Traxide DCDC suitable for LR's ?


So how do you go with an Aux lithium in something like a New Defender,as it will have a smart alternator,to get it fully charged?

I suppose a Lithium crank battery is out of the question?

I am working on a solution for this type of setup.

[DiscoMick]

Pretty sure our 2009 Defender does not have a smart alternator as it seems to sit on a constant 13 volts no matter what.
Am I right in thinking lithium batteries need to be charged at 14 volts to fully charge?
Isn't there a difference in battery construction between starting batteries, which are designed to give a short, sharp, high current for starting and recharging, and lithium and deep cycle batteries, which are designed to give slow discharge for running fridges etc?
If the OP got 9 years out of a starting battery that is a very good performance.

[Robmacca]

Pretty sure our 2009 Defender does not have a smart alternator as it seems to sit on a constant 13 volts no matter what.
Am I right in thinking lithium batteries need to be charged at 14 volts to fully charge?
Isn't there a difference in battery construction between starting batteries, which are designed to give a short, sharp, high current for starting and recharging, and lithium and deep cycle batteries, which are designed to give slow discharge for running fridges etc?
If the OP got 9 years out of a starting battery that is a very good performance.

Curious... how accurate is the voltage reading that you are getting from your voltage device? A constant 13v only would worry me, especially when driving with your Spotlights on, A/C on, etc

[MLD]

Pretty sure our 2009 Defender does not have a smart alternator as it seems to sit on a constant 13 volts no matter what.
.

Puma alternator is a self exciting alternator controlled by the ECU over CAN Bus. The ECU reads the voltage load on the system and communicates with the regulator in the alternator to control the voltage output. if you are getting 13v constant its running in default mode and there is a problem with your regulation. AFAIK it maxes out at 14.6v and should sit in the 14.2-14.4v range when charging. You can buy the regulator as a replacement part.

[Garry]

Its going to be challenging to get a voltage reading safely on the existing one as when I parked it up 2 weeks ago after a 90 minute run from the garage and this is after waiting a few hours I still could not touch the battery as was still that hot, needless to say when my brother checked it yesterday there was nothing even to open the door locks.

Dave who created this post "Lithium Start Battery", I don't know how to share the link had one but reading his posts he sold the car 2 years later so cant get any details on longevity from him.

Since its clearly not been a common modification I think I will stick with another Varta battery since I had such a good run from the last one.

Thanks for all the replies.

Garry

[drivesafe]

Its going to be challenging to get a voltage reading safely on the existing one as when I parked it up 2 weeks ago after a 90 minute run from the garage and this is after waiting a few hours I still could not touch the battery as was still that hot
Garry
Hi Garry and see if you can get a voltage reading when the battery has been sitting over night.

It is unusual for any battery to get that hot, even if it is in an engine bay, with one exception, and that is when the battery has dropped a cell.

My guess is that that is what has happened to yours and even after a good charge, the battery will settle back to 10.5v.

[DiscoMick]

Actually, you're right. I realised I mispoke. I should have said it seems to sit on 14 volts all the time, not 13. My bad.
I don't think it qualifies as a smart alternator though.


Puma alternator is a self exciting alternator controlled by the ECU over CAN Bus. The ECU reads the voltage load on the system and communicates with the regulator in the alternator to control the voltage output. if you are getting 13v constant its running in default mode and there is a problem with your regulation. AFAIK it maxes out at 14.6v and should sit in the 14.2-14.4v range when charging. You can buy the regulator as a replacement part.

[Garry]

Hi Garry and see if you can get a voltage reading when the battery has been sitting over night.

It is unusual for any battery to get that hot, even if it is in an engine bay, with one exception, and that is when the battery has dropped a cell.

My guess is that that is what has happened to yours and even after a good charge, the battery will settle back to 10.5v.

I will have a look next week when I'm home, thanks.

Garry

[Baytown]

I thought I’d chime in and mention my experience with both my ITech World Cranking lithium and rear accessory lithium batteries.

Im more than happy with them and have been running them for approx two years plus now. I’ve not had any failures on the road or in the bush, can drive a couple of thousand kms ie Tassie to Canberra and back with no problems or consideration.

My Redarc battery gauge shows around 13.5 to 14V as the operating charge and honestly, it just does what it’s supposed to do, with no issues starting my 6.2 V8 LS3.

Of interest the other day while reassembling the back end my vehicle with the stereo running, I lost all power to the vehicle from the main battery (alarm began sounding as it thought it was bypassed by crims) and thought to myself, “how did I blow a fusible link while not touching wiring”. It then dawned on me that I had the lithium start battery. I connected the lithium multi charger and yep, below 25%. I charged it overnight in situ and all was good in the morning.

It was interesting as they shut them self down with no warning due to the inbuilt protection software vs fading away and giving warning. I just re educated myself Re this quirk and am aware now.

Ive been doing lots of small (ish) jobs on the vehicle and it’s not been driven extensively for quite a while so I’ll cut the battery some slack due to this being it’s first issue since installation. The rear accessory battery just sits there doing it’s thing and powering stuff as needed with no issues. Its connected to a Redarc duel battery manager, I forget the actual unit but it’s not the lithium capable one though. The batteries are advertised to have their own inbuilt circuitry/software ability to accept charge from my ‘Smart’ alternator.

It may run against the accepted performance and theory limitations of Lithium in our application but again, I’m just discussing my actual owner/user experience with the iTech World products as fitted to my vehicle.

Im very happy with them both and while I’ll be watching the starter battery due to the failure the other day, I highly recommend them after two years until I’ve an established reason to find fault with them. If my starter fails again, I’ll get my charging system checked and if needed, revert back to standard in the front, but I’ve no reason to at this stage.

[drivesafe]

Hi Baytown and as pointed out, the old model Defenders do not have SMART alternators and your own voltage readings confirm this.

As such, you should have no problems using lithium batteries, as the cranking battery and as an auxiliary battery.

You will have an advantage in that short drives will fast charge your lithiums if they are low and your long drives will make sure your batteries are at 100%.

But with any vehicle with a SMART alternator, short drives are fine and will keep a decent charge in lithium batteries to make sure you can continually start the motor, but long drives with a SMART alternator will actually drain lithium batteries.

One point you raised is the Shut-Down voltage.

I believe this is the main reason no vehicle manufacturer use lithium cranking batteries ( with one exception where a lithium cranking battery is offered as a $4,000 OPTION ).

And your brand of battery has one of the highest shut down voltages based on capacity used, meaning if you buy an advertised 100Ah battery you actually only have a 75Ah battery.

Again, with the driving you are doing, the lower capacity will probably not be an issue.

[Baytown]

Ahhh, I’ve got confused Re which year of Defenders we were discussing. I thought I had a ‘smart alternator’ as in your previous post you say that Land Rover only used these from 2008 onwards. My 110 is a 2012 model (originally a 2.2).

‘’The original starter of this thread just identifies owning a Defender 90, not their year.

I always appreciate your informed info re electronics, and thanks.👍

[drivesafe]

Ahhh, I’ve got confused Re which year of Defenders we were discussing

Hi again and I too had it wrong.

I was of the impression that the least models of the old Defenders had SMART alternators but it seams all the Pumas had VARIABLE voltage alternator operation, just like the voltages you posted.

Variable voltage alternators do not operate below 13.5v and this is ideal for charging and maintaining any vehicle battery, be it lead acid or lithium.

Whereas SMART alternators will regularly operate as low 12.5v and lower, with some D4s going as low as 12.2v.

With lead acid batteries, FLOODED/WET cell or AGMs, anything below 12.6v and you are running on the battery, not the alternator.

With lithiums, anything below 13.2v and you are running on the battery, not the alternator, and this is why lithium batteries actually get discharged while driving a SMART alternator vehicle, Land Rover or otherwise.

With your lowest operating voltage of 13.5v, you will always be operating off the alternator while the motor is running, and your lithium battery will only supply power while starting and while camping, as it should be.

[Robmacca]

Hi again and I too had it wrong.

I was of the impression that the least models of the old Defenders had SMART alternators but it seams all the Pumas had VARIABLE voltage alternator operation, just like the voltages you posted.

Variable voltage alternators do not operate below 13.5v and this is ideal for charging and maintaining any vehicle battery, be it lead acid or lithium.

Whereas SMART alternators will regularly operate as low 12.5v and lower, with some D4s going as low as 12.2v.

With lead acid batteries, FLOODED/WET cell or AGMs, anything below 12.6v and you are running on the battery, not the alternator.

With lithiums, anything below 13.2v and you are running on the battery, not the alternator, and this is why lithium batteries actually get discharged while driving a SMART alternator vehicle, Land Rover or otherwise.

With your lowest operating voltage of 13.5v, you will always be operating off the alternator while the motor is running, and your lithium battery will only supply power while starting and while camping, as it should be.

So, if I understand u correctly, any vehicle that runs a Variable Voltage Alternator (>13.5v) can run a Starter and Aux Lithium battery together and both will get successfully 100% charged from the ALT?

I also assume that the isolator that is required will have to be the ignition type that only parallels the 2 batteries when the engine is running and disengages the batteries when the engine is turned off... would that also be correct?

[Colmoore]

Just been doing some research on lithium batteries and found this video from Victron quite interesting:

Careful - Alternator Charging Lithium - Victron Energy (https://www.victronenergy.com/blog/2019/10/07/careful-alternator-charging-lithium/)

A few misnomers and holes in the info I think [emoji848] but they do have a lot of good info and there’s a lot of words with the letter ‘r’ for the compere to westle with[emoji12]

Im very stoked to have bought a big 900cca / 75AH yellow top and a 1000cca 120 AH deep cycle for under $600 on sale.
(I very nearly bought a $500 Kings lithium but decided I couldn’t be bothered to re jig my current setup that’s worked so well for so long!)

Hopefully my next battery purchase will be something a lot bigger - to drive the wheels ⚡️[emoji593]

[drivesafe]

Hi Colmoore, that is the second video on “How to burn out an alternator” put out by that mob and it is as equally dishonest as the first.

I have never used any of their products and up until some customers of mine sent me links to the first video, I was interested in their gear, but once I saw the first video, and this one just confirms my opinion of the company, there is no way I would now trust anything that company had to say about any of their products.

First off, why didn’t they use identical alternators for the two tests? One without the reducer and one with it.

Secondly, it would be almost impossible to imitate that bench test in real life.

If you wanted to try to imitate the same situation in real life, you would have to operate the alternator in a situation that was never intended by either alternator manufacturers or vehicle manufacturers.

The fans in any alternator are not sufficient by themselves, to cool an alternator when working hard.

All alternator manufacturers rely on air being forced through the alternator because the vehicle is in motion, in other words, while the vehicle is travelling down the road.

And when the vehicle motor is at idle, say in traffic, first off the alternator will be at low revs ( not working very hard ) and the radiator fan will still be forcing a high volume of air through the alternator, regardless of whether the alternator has internal fans or not, and this will keep the alternators temperature within specs.

So to imitate their dishonest bench test in real life, you would first have to remove the radiator fan blades or disengage an electric thematic fan.

Then you would have to idle up the motor to get enough revs at the alternator for the alternator to be able to produce that high current.

If you were to try this, you would more than likely cook you motor way before you “burnt out” your alternator.

Last but not least, any alternator being operated as the manufacturers intended, can NOT be “burnt out” by applying a current load greater than what the alternator can produce.

The reason for this is that all alternators, by their very operation, are self-protecting against current overload.

When ever a current load is applied to an alternator that high than the alternator can produce, the alternators voltage reduces until the applied current load equals the alternators maximum current output.

Just like lead acid batteries, when you reduce the charge VOLTAGE applied to a lithium battery, a lithium battery will pull less CURRENT from the charging device.

I have many customer who have 2 batteries under the bonnet and up to three large batteries in their camper trailer or caravan, and after being camped for a few days, will drive to their next camp spot.

And starting out with low batteries, they may drive for three, four or five hours straight and their alternator will be working full bore the whole time.

This does not burn out the alternator, it simply charges all the batteries faster than any other setup.

BTW, this is the very reason SMART alternators operate at much lower voltages. By doing so, they lower the load on the motor, which means the motor uses less fuel and thus, lowers its exhaust emissions.