StraightCooking Oil into the Tank

[101RRS]

While flying up to the Torres Strait last week I read an article about a guy who has an ex Perth Mercedes Bus that he has used for a few trips around the country but has never bought any fuel to run it and it only gets about 3 km per litre.

This guys started making bio fuel but even it was too expensive to run in the bus and he found that a lot of the oil he collected was contaminated by animal fat and tallow - so he investigated and came up with a cleaver solution.

He simply collects the cooking oil of all sorts including animal fat, filters it and runs on it as it is without any problems. At normal temperatures some of the stuff can be a mushy solid but he is still able to run it through the engines injectors.

He filters the product with a spa pump and filter to remove the chunky bits and then filters through a micron filter so that when it is liquid it runs through the injection pump, filter and injectors. As the stuff has animal fat in it, it is very thick so he rigged up the engine cooling heating system to run through the fuel tank so the heat keeps the fuel liquid - he didn't explain how he starts from cold. It cost him $600 to mod the bus and has a small tank full of bio fuel in case he cannot get cooking oil. In his couple of trips around Aust he has only ever had to run on the bio once and never on dino diesel.

If a heating element was fitted into a landy fuel tank - why wouldn't this work in our cars.

The guy said his bggest problem was finding cooking oil and having to dispose of the drums it comes in - many tips wouldn't accept a 42 seater bus arriving to dump alarge number of empty drums.

gazz

[scrambler]

The June LRM had a section on just that - apparently though some of the injectors don't take too kindly to the lack of lubrication from the thicker oil.

[langy]

Cooking oil should work on your freelander, but as a secondary source of fuel ( 2nd tank too). Using a heat exchanger in the 2nd fuel line (Which is what that LRM article uses) you start on ordinary fuel, and when hot run veg oil thru the line heater, and by then it is viscious enough to pass thru the injectors. The problem TD4 has is precision : Comparing it to a Merc bus is like comparing a dentists drill to a hammer. The bus would be able to squirt most anything down the pipes, but the TD4 injectors are built for specific fuels. As scrambler said, you might have problems with lubrication. But, don't let us dissuade you - it might just work

[Wortho]

Straight oil will work in diesel engines, however not if you want your engine around long term. Using straight oil all the time is not good for your engines long term health. If you don't remove the gylcerin from the oil or fat it can glaze cylinder bores and gum up rings and injectors. Occasional use is apparently ok but i wouldn't use it all the time. Properly made biodiesel is the way to go, why stop half way, if your going to be getting the oil anyway why not turn it into diesel your engine will run better and last longer. Just my two cents worth.

[gruntfuttock]

I have to agree with langy on this. The old diesel engines were not made to the high tolerances that the new ones are today.

Also, if you want to do a job, do it once and do it well.

[101RRS]

Thanks for the input - not intending to do it myself, however was intrigued (where is the spell checker) as to why this process wasn't used more often as it worked well for the guy with the bus without the hassle and dangers of making bio diesel.

Cheers

Gazzz

[loanrangie]

So how does straight refuse oil detonate with out anything to ignite it in the oil ? Surely compression alone wouldnt make it ignite ? Commercial diesel has some petroleum base to it ?

[303gunner]

So how does straight refuse oil detonate with out anything to ignite it in the oil ? Surely compression alone wouldnt make it ignite ?
That's precisely how a Diesel engine works - Compression Ignition. Rudolf Diesel's first engines were demonstrated using Peanut Oil, no petroleum content at all.

[loanrangie]

That's precisely how a Diesel engine works - Compression Ignition. Rudolf Diesel's first engines were demonstrated using Peanut Oil, no petroleum content at all.

yES I KNOW HOW A DIESEL ENGINE WORKS, but commercial diesel has a petroleum base with some volatilty, cooking oil will not ignite easily.

[Capstan]

Go to Fattywagons.com for more info on straight vego oil running well in mainly old Benz cars, newer VW Golf and F-150 with great sucess.

I am keen to buy an old Benz to have a go. The other one I am keen to try is a gas producer a la WW2.

[JDNSW]

yES I KNOW HOW A DIESEL ENGINE WORKS, but commercial diesel has a petroleum base with some volatilty, cooking oil will not ignite easily.

Volatility has nothing to do with it. Get cooking oil hot enough (by compressing the air) and mix it with air and it will ignite very readily - look at the number of cooking fires there are, almost all starting from cooking oil. Diesel ships engines run on stuff that is far less volatile than cooking oil - looks more like tar.

There is nothing magic about petroleum based fuels - diesel engines have run on straight non mineral oil since the first diesels, and petrol engines have run on alchohol or producer gas from wood since the nineteenth century, with no mineral content in the fuel at all.

Its just that most modern engines are quite fussy about the fuel they use for a whole variety of reasons, but none of them are because they need some magic mineral ingredient.
John

[loanrangie]

I thought that what they mixed with the oil was something to make it ignite easily, cooking oil has to be heated a fair bit before it will ignite amd i am suprised that hot air is enough for it to happen, well you learn something new everyday !

[Bigbjorn]

Volatility has nothing to do with it. Get cooking oil hot enough (by compressing the air) and mix it with air and it will ignite very readily - look at the number of cooking fires there are, almost all starting from cooking oil. Diesel ships engines run on stuff that is far less volatile than cooking oil - looks more like tar.

There is nothing magic about petroleum based fuels - diesel engines have run on straight non mineral oil since the first diesels, and petrol engines have run on alchohol or producer gas from wood since the nineteenth century, with no mineral content in the fuel at all.

Its just that most modern engines are quite fussy about the fuel they use for a whole variety of reasons, but none of them are because they need some magic mineral ingredient.
John

Diesel engines have been run, in the past, on coal dust, corn starch, LPG, LNG, coal (town) gas, water gas, producer gas, vegetable oils, distillate, fuel (furnace) oils, bunker ( steam raising) oils, and the rough stuff, virtually refinery refuse that many large modern ships engines use. This last is as thick as grease and has considerable abrasive ( well sand) content, and has to use heat from engine exhaust to enable it to flow. Injection pumps have always been made to fine clearances and close tolerances. They need to be lubricated and supplied with clean fuel which is also a lubricant. See my thread in this forum under Alpine Diesel.If it will burn and you can get it in there, your diesel engine will run on it. How well or how long depends on cleanliness of the fuel, its lubricating qualities, and its calorific value. Startability depends on ambient temperature and the flash point of the fuel, and on compression ratio and combustion chamber design. As a general rule, open chamber engines start cold without help, pre-chamber engines need warming up, for example compare the tdi & td5 startability in the cold compared with a 4BD1, ask the Army about being shot at while the glow plugs are warming up the combustion chambers. Or ask any old line haul truckie about the comparitive startability of a GM two stroke and an NTC or NTA Cummins on a Melbourne winter morning. The Jimmie ( higher compression) starts right up with about a 1/2 turn of the crankshaft and runs evenly. The Clessie Cummins ( lower compression) needs ether or a source of hot air into the inlet, farts, bangs, blows smoke rings, and runs on varying numbers of cylinders until the chambers heat up.

[Yabbie]

My mechanic pointed this out to me at my last service for use in my Kia pregio, At first I was cynical but what the hell if it saves me $300 a week why not at least give it a try. He advises to cold filter it as heating the oil up allows the fat to pass through the filter and then solidify afterwards. He also suggested installing a small tank to start and finish with similar to what you do with LPG. I haven't had the chance to try it out as yet, but the savings would be great.

As for what it does to your engine his best selling point was with the money I'd save I could buy a new one within 2-3yrs. So long as the engine lasts while I own it who cares how short a life it has for the next owner.

[Bush65]

... As a general rule, open chamber engines start cold without help, pre-chamber engines need warming up, for example compare the tdi & td5 startability in the cold compared with a 4BD1...
The 4BD1 is direct injection and does not have a pre-chamber, in this way they are alike to the tdi and td5.

It's compression ratio is lower though, and that would account for the startability.

[Tank]

yES I KNOW HOW A DIESEL ENGINE WORKS, but commercial diesel has a petroleum base with some volatilty, cooking oil will not ignite easily.
Mate, if you heat up a pan of cooking oil and apply a lighted match, well you better have a LLLong match, heat up diesel and it becomes extremely volatile. My brother poured a couple of gallons of diesel that had been sitting in a jerry can in the sun (was hot) onto a pile of insulated copper wire which was on a FJ Holden bonnet (inside facing up) to burn off the insulation to sell the copper for scrap. I was 10 metres away when he lit it with abit of lit newspaper, it flattened me, blew my brother back 25 metres, took off his eyebrows, eyelashes and hair at front of his head. The 100 kilos + of copper wire ended up on all of the neighbours roofs and the FJ bonnet was flat as pancake, Point of this story, DON'T MESS WITH HOT DIESEL OR COOKING OIL, Regards Frank.

[Blknight.aus]

FYI. series landrover 2.25 diesels run fine on used cooking oil, just filter it and dewater it... I used to run bug 2.0 on anything I could get my hands on and kept it in the second tank on the passangers side. to give it a helping hand I rejiggered the exhaust so the muffler sat square under the tank for heating the fuel...

I did do some mods for fuel heating never needed them was just experimenting.

[Bush65]

FYI. series landrover 2.25 diesels run fine on used cooking oil, just filter it and dewater it... I used to run bug 2.0 on anything I could get my hands on and kept it in the second tank on the passangers side. to give it a helping hand I rejiggered the exhaust so the muffler sat square under the tank for heating the fuel...

I did do some mods for fuel heating never needed them was just experimenting.
I have seen many other posts (on other forums), which state not to use straight vegetable oil with these early injection pumps. The VE pumps on 200 and 300Tdi are fine with svo.

From memory it is something to do with the mechanical strength/design of some pump components.

[JDNSW]

I have seen many other posts (on other forums), which state not to use straight vegetable oil with these early injection pumps. The VE pumps on 200 and 300Tdi are fine with svo.

From memory it is something to do with the mechanical strength/design of some pump components.

Whether this is a problem may depend on where you live - probably not a problem in coastal areas north of Sydney/Perth or anywhere in the tropics, but could be a problem in the southern states or inland where it can get cold. And then not a problem if you either preheat the fuel (using dino or bio diesel to start) or simply don't use the vehicle when it is very cold.
John

[Michael2]

SVO needs to reach a temp of 150 Deg C to match the viscosity of diesel :o . I did some research recently and decided I wouldn't run a Tdi on SVO. There's a link to an informative web site somewhere on the discussion I started on this forum "TDI on veg oil"

[JDNSW]

I have seen many other posts (on other forums), which state not to use straight vegetable oil with these early injection pumps. The VE pumps on 200 and 300Tdi are fine with svo.

From memory it is something to do with the mechanical strength/design of some pump components.

By coincidence, this afternoon I came across a warning label attached when new to a S3 diesel that I have. I think it is worth quoting in full:-


WARNING

This engine must not, repeat not, be started if the prevailing temperature is at or below freezing point, or the injection pump may seize up.

Inhibiting fuel, Fusus A or a mixture thereof, is used in this system, and freezes at between 22F and 30F.

The whole engine must be raised above the critical temperature before starting and normal diesel fuel used to replace the above mentioned fuel, after which the vehicle can be safely started in prevailing conditions. The engine may be considered as satisfactory for starting when, upon undoing the vent screw on the distributor pump, liquid fuel may be pumped from the tank by operating the fuel pump hand priming lever.


This certainly suggests that you will get problems if you use fuel with too high a viscosity, but also tells you how to tell whether you have got too high a viscosity.

John

[chazza]

Me too Capstan! I thought it would be a hoot to run my series 1 on charcoal and go to the local show. The gas producer along with the fuel could be in a trailer. Let me know if you find any plans, I will do likewise,
cheers Chazza