Confuzzled. D1 wont start

[RocketSoss]

G'day.

My D1 wont start.

I run a 1995. Discovery 1, 300tdi. Auto. Turbo.


The other day i was entering the highway. Id been driving it for a few hours and suddenly:
* I thought i saw some smoke come from the back through the rear view mirror, more than usual.
* Thought i could smell something different (though it was hazy outside and could have been environmental, i cant be sure).
* Lost a bit of power.

I didnt notice any changes in engine sound.
Car wasnt overheating.

I got to the top of the hill and decided to shift into neutral and roll down to see if i could notice/hear any differences.
The car stalled.
I pulled over and couldnt get it start again
It was cranking over, but not even sounding like it wanted to start. It seemed like a fuel problem.

Couldnt get it going on the side of the road doing my usual checks. So towed it home.

In the workshop I have:
* Bypassed the fuel filter and air filter to rule out blockages.
* bypassed the lift pump (This is new btw. Delphi brand, i installed it about 2 weeks ago)
* checked power to the fuel stop solenoid - there is power. 12v or so.
* disconnected the metal injector pipes from the injectors and turned the car over. Fuel spurts out. I was expecting high pressure, but it just spurts. Im not sure whats normal, ive never done this before.
* the injectors are fairly new, like less than a year old.
* tried jump starting it from my brothers car for extra oomph. Strangely it sounds a bit more lethargic than usual when cranking over, even when jump starting it. Not terrible, but not with the same amount of oomph as usual.
* the batteries are charged. I have 2 connected for extra CCA's
* Yes, theres fuel in the tank.
* My immobiliser is not engaged.
* Checked fuses to the IP. They are fine.
* There is oil and coolant at correct levels. Neither appears to be contaminated.

When i crank it over, im not getting much exhaust from the tail pipe, so cant say what colour it is.

Upon assessing i noticed 2 things which struck me as unusual for my car.
1) There is some grey/white smoke coming out of the air intake when i crank it over (its exhaust smelling). Not a huge amount, but some. Smoke backing up the air intake ducting strikes me as not normal, but maybe it is??
2) the oil on my dipstick is still mostly clean/yellow. Ive recently topped up the oil ~1L, to replace lost oil from a split crank case breather tube. Normally new oil on my car turns black very quickly. Im worried oil hasnt been circulating round the engine properly, but reading through various forums clean/yellow oil doesnt necessarily mean bad things. But its unusual for my D1.


Im now a bit confuzzled and not sure what to do next.
Usually doing the above things solves the issue.

Hoping you guys might have something to offer.

All help greatly appreciated.

Thanks in advance.

[DieselLSE]

I hate long range diagnosis, but my first thought is timing. Either injector pump issue or perhaps timing chain has jumped a link.

[PhilipA]

Timing belt slipped broken? Seeing the last thing you worked on was in that area, this would be my first point of call.
Regards PhilipA

[Markf]

G'day.

My D1 wont start.

I run a 1995. Discovery 1, 300tdi. Auto. Turbo.


The other day i was entering the highway. Id been driving it for a few hours and suddenly:
* I thought i saw some smoke come from the back through the rear view mirror, more than usual.
* Thought i could smell something different (though it was hazy outside and could have been environmental, i cant be sure).
* Lost a bit of power.

I didnt notice any changes in engine sound.
Car wasnt overheating.

I got to the top of the hill and decided to shift into neutral and roll down to see if i could notice/hear any differences.
The car stalled.
I pulled over and couldnt get it start again
It was cranking over, but not even sounding like it wanted to start. It seemed like a fuel problem.

Couldnt get it going on the side of the road doing my usual checks. So towed it home.



These symptoms are distressingly familiar - in fact exactly the same. It was a freshly rebuilt Alpha Romeo 1750 engine. The timing chain had skipped a tooth or two and the pistons had clouted all of the valves - inlet and exhaust. I fear you are in much the same situation.[bawl] A compression test would be the next thing on my agenda.

[RocketSoss]

Timing belt.
Good thought.
This happened to my other car not all that long ago actually. Skipped a tooth. Super rough start, smoked like a dragon, moved like a lame alpaca.

Seems unlikely in this situation as the timing belt was done on my D1 maybe 2 years ago, but certainly possible.

Ill check it and report back once done.



Compression test.
This was also going through my mind actually, ive never done one before, but cant be too hard. Think my mate as a gauge.
What should the pressures be? I spose thats in the haynes manual...?




Re: the clean oil and smoke backing up air intake.... is this normal?

Thanks guys for your replies.
Much appreciated.

[RocketSoss]

These symptoms are distressingly familiar - in fact exactly the same. It was a freshly rebuilt Alpha Romeo 1750 engine. The timing chain had skipped a tooth or two and the pistons had clouted all of the valves - inlet and exhaust. I fear you are in much the same situation.[bawl] A compression test would be the next thing on my agenda.


Hey Markf (and others),

A few updates on my situation.

In short..
The head gasket was blown.
The engine oil had turned paste like!
usually when ive had blown HG before, the oil when more emulsified and milky,
This time it was a pastey mess.

Ive since;
redone the HG.
Had the head machined and tested.
New bolts.
cleaned the block up.

But it still wont start.

The timing belt was still in place correctly (though very worn.. it had been done about 80,000ks ago, an issue ive since learned about 300tdi's), ive replaced it.

FIP is pumping fuel to injectors and lines are primed.

Injectors are <1 year old.


I did a compression test.
Engine wasnt warm, coz it cant be in my situation!

Cylinders 1,2,4 (cylinder 1 being the the front one, i hope this is right) had cold compression of about 110- 130psi
Cylinder 3 had compression of about 400psi!

Im still getting exhaust coming out of the air intake when i turn it over, this seems wrong to me, but i cant find anywhere on the net about this sort of thing.... Is this normal?

Any ideas, welcome.

Thanks in advance.

[Tins]

Timing belt.
Good thought.
This happened to my other car not all that long ago actually. Skipped a tooth. Super rough start, smoked like a dragon, moved like a lame alpaca.

Seems unlikely in this situation as the timing belt was done on my D1 maybe 2 years ago, but certainly possible.

Ill check it and report back once done.



Compression test.
This was also going through my mind actually, ive never done one before, but cant be too hard. Think my mate as a gauge.
What should the pressures be? I spose thats in the haynes manual...?




Re: the clean oil and smoke backing up air intake.... is this normal?

Thanks guys for your replies.
Much appreciated.

Deleted reply.

[Kingfordy]

Hey all LR enthusiasts,

I believe i have a tough one. Land rover disco 1 300TDI. Was driving home one day a few weeks ago and it started to run a little rough. Going down a hill, i allowed it to coast. It then conked out and now will not start.

When cranking, it does not sound like it wants to start at all. It just sounds flat.

What has been done so far:
1. Head gasket changed and head machined. All head bolts changed and torqued correctly
2. Timing checked and is correct (fitted new belt aswell)
3. Bypassed fuel filter to ensure it wasnt that. (Also cracked injectors to make sure fuel was getting through with success)(New fuel lifter was installed a few weeks ago too)
4. Compression test done (This is were an issue might be. All cylinders are different, ranging from lowest at 110PSI up to 400PSI)
5. Battery has been charged and is good

When emptying the oil, it was a sludge.

Also, when cranking. There is quite a bit of smoke coming out of the air intake pipe. Is this normal?
Engine has never overheated.
I am not completely stumped and not sure which direction to go to try and get the old girl to start and show some life again.

Any thoughts or information on what to look at or what to try would be GREATLY appreciated.

Thanks legends!

[workingonit]

Hey Markf (and others),

Cylinder 3 had compression of about 400psi!

Im still getting exhaust coming out of the air intake when i turn it over

Thanks in advance.

Was the compression test a leak down test or measure of pressure as the engine rotates? You sound very capable so I'm guessing you've had the rocker cover off to observed all valves moving correctly when hand rotating before firing up.

Looking around the web seems like over 300 psi to be expected. Land Rover Workshop Manuals > 300Tdi Defender > ENGINE > CYLINDER COMPRESSION TEST (https://workshop-manuals.com/landrover/defender300tdi/engine/cylinder_compression_test/).

So could rings on 1, 2 and 4 cylinders be worn. As part of anti-pollution measures engine oil fumes at the rocker cover area are fed back to the turbo to be mixed with air and fed into the engine to be burnt. Complaints are that these oil fumes foul the intercooler if too many oil fumes are being produced - worn rings will probably allow exhaust fumes to add to the recycled oil fumes and may explain fumes at the in air intake area.

Second guess, exhaust valve on a cylinder is sticking closed causing fuel exhaust fumes to exit air inlet.

Had an exhaust valve jam shut on a quad bike single piston engine resulting in backfire and fumes through the inlet port. Engine would rotate but wouldn't start.

As others have said, belt out a tooth is a good contender.

[Tins]

Confuzzled? So am I, as there would seem to be two different threads running on this.

In both threads it is said that the timing belt has been done, but that is what it sounds like to me, especially as there is smoke coming out of the intake. When the belt was done was the tensioner stud upgraded to the thicker one? It is a weakness that can cause a fail to proceed. Usually results in broken rockers and bent pushrods. However, even though the 300TDi is an interference engine the valves usually survive.

.182003

[Rick1970]

Valve clearances and cam timing? 110 is a bit of a worry

[Ronski]

110 psi on one cylinder is most definitely a concern. Diesel will not combust at that pressure.
post all cylinder readings. might help to work out the problem, ie. low between 2 & 3 possible head gasket failure etc. etc.

[Kingfordy]

Hey fellas,

Thanks for responding.
Cylinders 1,2,4 (cylinder 1 being the the front one, i hope this is right) had cold compression of about 110- 130psi
Cylinder 3 had compression of about 400psi!

I am currently working on getting this thread removed as incidentally there are two going for the same issue.
If you respond, could you please respond on https://www.aulro.com/afvb/discovery-1-a/292887-confuzzled-d1-wont-start.html
More information on the issue will be there.
Kind regards,
Kingfordy

[Tins]

Yes. #1 is the first cylinder from the front.

Those comp figures.... The 400 one is about right, depending on the gauge. 348 according to LR. That figure relies on everything else being correct. The others are the concern. I would say that the valves aren't closing, which brings me back to a timing belt failure. 3 bolts gets the rocker cover off. Then you'll know something.

[RocketSoss]

G'day All,

Thank you for your time and efforts trying to help me solve my issues.
Always much appreciated.

Updates:

Q: Workingonit: Was the compression test a leak down test or measure of pressure as the engine rotates? You sound very capable so I'm guessing you've had the rocker cover off to observed all valves moving correctly when hand rotating before firing up.

A: it was a measure of pressure as the engine rotates.
No,i hadnt thought of taking the rocker cover off and checking for valves moving correctly when hand rotating.
So i did this.
All valves were moving correctly. Couldnt see any issues there.
Good suggestion


Q: Tins: When the belt was done was the tensioner stud upgraded to the thicker one?

A: Dunno actually, i just used the one in the kit.
My tensioner definitely wasnt busted like the one in your picture.
My rockers and pushrods werent bent or busted. I had them out and definitely checked. They looked good.


Q: Rick1970: Valve clearances and cam timing? 110 is a bit of a worry

A: Good call, i hadnt thought to check valve clearances.
So i did, they were fine and spaced as per the manual. 0.200mm from memory



Most of you come back to the timing belt, fair, though i am pretty comfortable it wasnt this, as when i replaced it, the old one, though worn, was in place, still functioning and all markers indicated correct timing. Pin was in the bell housing, bolt was locking the FIP, all marker and pulleys aligned and in TDC.
I just cant see this being the reason for failure.



In Short:
Im heavily leading towards failed piston rings.

I just cant find anything else and i feel ive checked everything now.

I even took the injectors off, connected them up and turned over the engine to check the FIP was supplying enough pressure atomise fuel, and a lovely fine mist was produced... was an interesting thing to do actually.

I went and spoke to my local mechanic, whose pretty good, though doesnt do LR much.
He suggested a few things (like checking for injector spray to assess FIP, check tappets and valve clearances, which i did)
As per Rick1970, he said psi of 110 etc is not good enough to combust the fuel. 400psi he was happy with. But i only have one chamber giving me this.

He thinks i have more serious problems too.

Researching piston removal and ring changes etc ive decided is too much effort and money for no guaranteed outcome.

So ive written the death certificate.
Bit sad..
but time to move on.



The Good News..
Ive already bought another 300tdi. yesterday.
good price. $1.8g
needs some work, but all the main bits are functioning.
I can do the rest and give it a spit and polish.

The 300tdi we've been working on in this thread will get new life through Organ Donation.

Thanks again.

RS

[roh]

Rings failing on three cylinders simultaneously seems unlikely though?

[Tins]

Rings failing on three cylinders simultaneously seems unlikely though?

That would be my question also. 300 TDis have pretty robust bottom ends.

[RocketSoss]

Apparently the oil pump screw on the D2 (accessed from the oil sump) is known to rattle off. Obviously resulting in failed oil pumpage.

q) is this a known issue for D1 also?

[Tins]

Apparently the oil pump screw on the D2 (accessed from the oil sump) is known to rattle off. Obviously resulting in failed oil pumpage.

q) is this a known issue for D1 also?

No. That was a well known TD5 issue. TDis are different.