Puma hard to start, sometimes

[oldie]

Hi, my 2009 2.4 Puma is hard to start sometimes. It turns over fine, but just does not fire. But then it fires but does not continue and then as you continue to crank it will finally start.

It seems to run fine once going. And sometimes it just starts normally. But it is getting worse

About 6 months ago had the SCV replaced as this hard start problem was beginning to appear and things seemed to get better. But now I am concerned I will get stranded.

To me it seems to be lack of fuel, but which part of the system ?

I have tried searching this site but nothing jumps out at me so can someone help this Oldie ?

Keith

[Robmacca]

Once running... does it idle normally or does the revs vary - if the revs vary, then the SVC maybe be playing up again...?

Have u checked for Air leaks in the fuel system?

Also, have u noticed if the problem happens or begins to happens when the fuel tank capacity is below 1/2 way? I had an issue with crap in the tank and when the fuel level dropped below a certain level, the crap blocked the fuel pickup causing starting/running problems...

just some things that I've experienced, so it may help u....

[MLD]

sounds like fuel supply to me. the 2.4 does not have an in tank primer pump like the later 2.2. It relies on fuel being primed in the line to supply the high pressure pump on the engine. If you haven't messed with the fuel system it should have a check valve inline to stop fuel running back into the tank. If you have a leak you might be losing prime or the pick up is blocked as Robmacca suggested. I've had a few SCV go in the past 13 years of ownership of my Puma. None presented as your symptoms. That said, i knew my SCV was on the way out because it would smoke on start up something chronic. Still does it if it has been laid up for a while but i put that down to the injectors past their use by date.

[simonfish]

how old is your starter battery ?
I had a bit of hard starting, and replaced the battery, and all good.
I think the glowplug needs a bit of power to heat up enough to get it started, you should be able to get it checked at a battery world or something, before considering replacing it.

Just a thought.

[DiscoMick]

Have you tried fitting a new fuel filter? An old blocked filter could be limiting fuel supply.
As stated above, the 2.4 such as mine does not have a fuel pump in the tank, so it needs a clear flow.
BTW if you change the fuel filter, make sure you fill the new filter with diesel, or you will have to spend the next 5 mins pumping it to get enough fuel to the engine to start.

[oldie]

Thanks for the responses.

It has only done about 5k km since new filter and that was around town. Sure you can get a crook load of fuel anywhere.

The motor turns over easily and for an extended time so I don't think it is battery although occasionally it will not crank for a second or 2 just like a weak battery.

It seems just like vapour lock we used to get in petrol motors way back which keeps me thinking it is fuel related.

It is off to the indy to get sorted. I gave up on these things when I could not fix it with a hammer and a shifter.

In the meantime I will check for smoke on start up but I have not noticed it in the past.

Oldie

[DiscoMick]

Probably wrong, but could there be an issue with the power supply to the fuel pump? Just a thought.

[DazzaTD5]

Hi, my 2009 2.4 Puma is hard to start sometimes. It turns over fine, but just does not fire. But then it fires but does not continue and then as you continue to crank it will finally start.

It seems to run fine once going. And sometimes it just starts normally. But it is getting worse

About 6 months ago had the SCV replaced as this hard start problem was beginning to appear and things seemed to get better. But now I am concerned I will get stranded.

To me it seems to be lack of fuel, but which part of the system ?

I have tried searching this site but nothing jumps out at me so can someone help this Oldie ?

Keith

On a 2.4 TDCi (puma) ...from common to least common
*The switch behind or on the end of the key barrel assembly, this though tends to be a start, stall, start stall type of fault.
*Failing crankshaft position sensor. from all I have done it doesnt throw a code, only use genuine (as in Ford part).
*Pinched fuel line between chassis and body just after fuel filter. Keep in mind often when a suction line gets a kink or pinch it will collapse more.
*as10 signal fault between it and ECU, this is often a break in the harness somewhere, also check for any water ingress into the as10 (as10 is the imobiliser).
*Other harness related breaks, short to grounds. the electrical harness in general tends to be too short and can get cut, plugs come part, pins back out of plugs.
*Front of top of engine main harness, follow it round the passenger side towards the firewall, about 300mm from firewall there is a plug, ensure its clean and no pins have backed out.
*3 plugs that connect to the ecu at the firewall, 1 especially the harness really is too short and stretches the wires, ensure they are clean.
*After that, numerous breaks in the harness and very random places.

Way way down after all that the IP cluster can fault, but this is rare.
a faulty ecu and again very rare.

[oldie]

Had the truck back from Indie for a week now and not much improvement after new SCV and fuel filter even though both had been done in February.

The mechanic could not really explain the cause or guarantee it was fixed. He checked out the glow plugs but they seemed fine. He put his scanner on the truck and reckons the high pressure side of the system was good even before the motor fired.

So that all suggested electrics/electronics. But battery checked OK. We were thinking maybe dodgy battery voltage dropping below electronics threshold when cranking. So day after I got it home it took for ever to start so I got a new battery since the existing battery was 3.5 yrs old. Seemed to be a bit better but still occasionally cranks for ever before firing. I have noticed also that the starter seems to stall every now and then, almost as if the car is in gear. I am presently thinking something is stopping the injectors letting fuel into the cylinders...but ...

So thanks Dazza for those suggestions. I will look into them and DiscoMick, the Puma does not have a pump in the fuel tank. It is a suction system and the fact that the high pressure rail is up to pressure tells me there is fuel getting that far. But thanks for the thought. Most confusing.

Oldie

[plusnq]

Had the truck back from Indie for a week now and not much improvement after new SCV and fuel filter even though both had been done in February.

The mechanic could not really explain the cause or guarantee it was fixed. He checked out the glow plugs but they seemed fine. He put his scanner on the truck and reckons the high pressure side of the system was good even before the motor fired.

So that all suggested electrics/electronics. But battery checked OK. We were thinking maybe dodgy battery voltage dropping below electronics threshold when cranking. So day after I got it home it took for ever to start so I got a new battery since the existing battery was 3.5 yrs old. Seemed to be a bit better but still occasionally cranks for ever before firing. I have noticed also that the starter seems to stall every now and then, almost as if the car is in gear. I am presently thinking something is stopping the injectors letting fuel into the cylinders...but ...

So thanks Dazza for those suggestions. I will look into them and DiscoMick, the Puma does not have a pump in the fuel tank. It is a suction system and the fact that the high pressure rail is up to pressure tells me there is fuel getting that far. But thanks for the thought. Most confusing.

Oldie


I had a similar experience recently. It was the switch in the end of the ignition barrel that was failing.

[DazzaTD5]

On a 2.4 TDCi (puma) ...from common to least common
*The switch behind or on the end of the key barrel assembly, this though tends to be a start, stall, start stall type of fault.
*Failing crankshaft position sensor. from all I have done it doesnt throw a code, only use genuine (as in Ford part).
*Pinched fuel line between chassis and body just after fuel filter. Keep in mind often when a suction line gets a kink or pinch it will collapse more.
*as10 signal fault between it and ECU, this is often a break in the harness somewhere, also check for any water ingress into the as10 (as10 is the imobiliser).
*Other harness related breaks, short to grounds. the electrical harness in general tends to be too short and can get cut, plugs come part, pins back out of plugs.
*Front of top of engine main harness, follow it round the passenger side towards the firewall, about 300mm from firewall there is a plug, ensure its clean and no pins have backed out.
*3 plugs that connect to the ecu at the firewall, 1 especially the harness really is too short and stretches the wires, ensure they are clean.
*After that, numerous breaks in the harness and very random places.

Way way down after all that the IP cluster can fault, but this is rare.
a faulty ecu and again very rare.

I'm high lighting this one on my list after you mention the starter motor sometimes sounds like it stalls, as in power is dropping to it.
I guess when the starter "stalls"as you put it, you have to turn the key off and crank again?

[oldie]

My immediate reaction once the starter stalls is to release the key and try again. The starter will go rrr and then stall. It is now to the point where sometimes it only properly cranks on the 3rd try. But even then it will sometimes crank and crank and crank before it fires.

And sometimes it fires for an instant, hesitates and then bursts into life. And sometimes it starts very quickly ( normally ) Very frustrating.

Can someone explain why it might be the switch on the key barrel ? Is this suggesting that the starter is a separate problem ? Or does the ignition switch also separately control part of the fuel system ?

Oldie

[DazzaTD5]

My immediate reaction once the starter stalls is to release the key and try again. The starter will go rrr and then stall. It is now to the point where sometimes it only properly cranks on the 3rd try. But even then it will sometimes crank and crank and crank before it fires.

And sometimes it fires for an instant, hesitates and then bursts into life. And sometimes it starts very quickly ( normally ) Very frustrating.

Can someone explain why it might be the switch on the key barrel ? Is this suggesting that the starter is a separate problem ? Or does the ignition switch also separately control part of the fuel system ?

Oldie

Your posts went from it cranks over fine... to cranks then the starter motor stalls.

*if the out going power on the switch at the back of the ignition barrel does not feed out because the switch is intermittently failing then the power to the starter motor intermittently stops and the starter motor... stalls. it is also on the cheaper end of the parts cannon, so prolly a better place to start... so to speak

Why do you believe its fuel related, when you did mention that the mechanic said the high pressure side of the fuel system is good. What is his/her definition of "good" looks good? they are reading pressures during cranking? on idle pressures?

If fuel delivery to the high pressure pump (via the internal lift pump in the high pressure pump) is poor due to a restriction as an example then the ecu will try and compensate for this (poorly) and ends up over pressurising the high pressure side (the rail) which results in a high (as in incorrect) pressure fault and nasty injector rattle and overall very poor running. Keep in mind this over pressure condition can be a result of a restriction on either the delivery (to the pump) or on the return line back to the fuel tank.

suggestions made by myself and other AULRO members are at best professional guesses... as the Defender is not in front of me or others... except your mechanic, so his/her professional guess should in theory be a lot closer than anyone else.

[oldie]

Thanks Daz.

It has been good for the last few weeks then a few days ago was back to its old bad habits. Lots of cranking and no fire in the belly. And now today over multiple starts it was fine.

At this stage I cannot see any pattern and the indy is puzzled as well.

When he measured the fuel pressures his answer was ... during cranking pressures show there is fuel in the system and the after it starts running pressures are normal. What about there being an intermittent fault on the signals to the injectors ? There could be pressure in the HP line but nothing in the cylinders hence no ignition. Or, could the injectors dump a load of fuel in all cylinders and cause a temporary "hydrauliced" effect which causes the starter motor to stall. Puzzling.

I still feel it is in the electics/electroncs associated with fuel delivery. Maybe a sensor on the way out. It is the intermittent nature of the problem which leads me down this path.

As a bit of lateral thinking, given it is the Ford 2.4 motor, is there a Ford site similar to this that I could check out for similar issues ? Just thinking.

Oldie and getting older

[DazzaTD5]

i honestly would start with:

LR039638 - its the switch assembly that is behind the ignition barrel, its a very common fault on a 2.4 (i use a genuine one, but the cheap cheap ones will do for nothing more than simple test n see)

*remove the top plastic cover over the instrument panel, then remove the instrument panel, then the column plastic surround, this will give better access to it all.

[DazzaTD5]

As a bit of lateral thinking, given it is the Ford 2.4 motor, is there a Ford site similar to this that I could check out for similar issues ? Just thinking.


there is no equal or similar site to AULRO, its the best $11 (sub per year?) you will spend on your Land Rover

[oldie]

Daz, thks for the advice of 22 December about replacing the switch. The problem of not firing has not happened since then but we are doing the Canning in July so I am tidying up all the known hickups and am now looking to take yr advice and replace the switch.

From what I can see, the switch sits in the back of the steering lock/ignition key assembly. What holds it in ?

You mentioned you bought Lucas. Do you buy from dealer or from online supplier ?

Oldie

[DazzaTD5]

Hi, my 2009 2.4 Puma is hard to start sometimes. It turns over fine, but just does not fire. But then it fires but does not continue and then as you continue to crank it will finally start.



If we go back to the your very first line in your original post, this is a typical symptom of the switch on the back of the ignition assembly.
LR039638 - well I only fit genuine to customers as the alternatives are britpart or allmakes (which is all under Britparts now anyway), but they are only $20 odd dollars as apposed to over $100.00
(There are some slight variations on the depth of the switch assembly, but i'm sure thats only before 2007, so the number I gave you should be correct)

*disconnect the battery if you must ( I dont but I'm careful and I'm not going to short a live wire onto a earth)
*Remove the IP (instrument panel) cluster (2 screws holding top plastic cover, 2 screws holding front plastic facia, 2 screws holding IP cluster, electrical plug behind cluster has a little cam lever)
*remove the plastic surrounds on the steering colum. the underside plastic has a screw right down the bottom, it actually holds a plastic pin and does not need to be removed.
*take pics of what wires connect to what pins on the switch.
*there are two very tiny screws on each side of the ignition barrel that keep the switch in place, remove, dont loose them.
*reverse the above steps...

P.S you can buy from LRDirect in the U.K, rimmerbros in the U.K, or any recommendation other AULRO members suggest

[oldie]

Hi Daz,
Thanks for the tips. I bit the bullet and bought a genuine switch from SD Parts in western Sydney. It was actually $30 cheaper than Rimmers and they had it in stock.
Followed your instructions, thanks. But I had to do it 3 times ! First time, I put the old switch back in. Yeah old age ! And those little retaining screws are a real challenge to my 79 year old fingers, particularly the back one. But after trying the suggestion I found in another post somewhere to use blue tack on the end of the screw driver I reverted to an old trick of using a bit of cardboard. Cut a strip about 10mm wide and about 100mm long. Punch a small hole about 6mm from one end and screw the little self tapper through the card. This allows you to position the screw into the hole with one hand and use the other with the srew driver to start the thread. I then pulled the card out before tightening the screw right up. To make removal of the card easier, I cut from the end of the card backl to the hole I made. The card is stiff enough to keep the screw in place but the cut allows you pull the card out. Then tighten screw. Simple.

So then for the second install with the new switch. Remove dash, instruments etc, change switch and refit dash, all in 30 minutes. But nothing much worked ! Rattling noise from a relay somewhere when trying to start engine, similar rattling noise and rapid flashing of indicators when trying to lock the truck. Bugger. And I was sure I had the plugs correct.

Next day opened dash up again and yep, plugs correct. Maybe the computer is upset so I disconnected the battery for a while and just for interest checked the voltage. Almost new battery so surprised to find down to 2.4 volts. While waiting for the battery charger to do its work, pulled the switch out again and checked its operation with multi meter and checked plugs against circuit diagrams and all should have worked. So reassembled and now with a fully charged battery, it works !!!

While waiting for the battery to charge I fiddled with the old switch ( partly because the drive socket in new switch did not line up with the drive shaft in the steering lock ).
I pulled the old switch apart and was disappointed with what I found. My old switch would not have lasted much longer ! My truck is MY10 Defender cab/chas with only 145,000 km but that switch was close to complete mechanical failure. Contacts looked good but the plastic bits were very dodgy.

So thanks again for pointing me in that direction, at least a major drama has been averted. Now to see if the original problem has also gone away. And I am unsure what drained the battery in such a short time. Certainly the headlights were not on overnight.

Keith

[DazzaTD5]

lets hope all is now well [thumbsupbig]

[oldie]

So here is the update and it is not good news.
As I recently reported, changed the ignition switch in the hope that would fix the difficult start. It did not.
Every now and then, maybe once every 50 - 100 starts, it just does not want to fire. Like the old fashioned vapour lock - seems like no fuel getting through.
Allow it to crank for 3 or 4 seconds, no fire, ignition off and try again straight away. Need to do this 3 or 4 times and then it just starts normally.
So far in the last 6 months have done the SCV, new battery, new fuel filters, new ignition switch.
Thoughts please.
MY 2010 Puma 2.4 144,000 km.

Oldie

[DazzaTD5]

Hi Kevin,
You really need to find a good indy repairer, pref one that loves to work on that last model Defender.

Pretty well all my work is last model Defender (2007 - 2016) to be blunt, the 2.4 is a ****box of hodge bodge.
The engine harness is Ford, the main harness is a hodge bodge of land rover what was needed and spliced to old Defender, there are numerous plugs that arent used so they have a blank plug that loops the connections (another failure point).

Shooting the parts cannon is not going to solve your issue.

it sound like Oscilloscope time, check the signal wire between the engine computer (ECU, ECM) and the as10 immobiliser. you may have continuity but as its a PWM (pulse width modulated) signal it can change frequency from "ok start" to "no dont start" For me to try and type out all the connection and connectivity issues they have would be a book.
Also on a 2.4 the signal wire from the engine computer to the immobiliser goes via the IP cluster (instrument panel) and is another point of failure.

I am also being simplistic in my explanation but it aint a space ship and by comparison to a Discovery 4 its a horse and cart.

One saving grace is there is only 1 pair of CAN BUS wires, simply to provide the IP cluster with all the needed info to display what you need to see from the ECU.

P.S and just to add most 2.4s use a 2.2 (read later model) wiring harness which makes the Land Rover workshop manual mostly total bull****, except for early 2.4.

"its a Defender, you need a real mechanic"

[oldie]

Thanks Daz, it is now with a different indy but so far has nor misbehaved.

Oldie

[DazzaTD5]

Thanks Daz, it is now with a different indy but so far has nor misbehaved.

Oldie

I realise my last post doesn't really help you much.

*Honestly I would get it's a fuel related issue out of your head, I very much doubt this is the case.

*Under the drivers seat is the main relays for ignition, starting etc.
*Pull every relay one at a time, clean the socket connection, clean each blade on the relays, make sure every socket that the blade of the relay plugs into is tight.
*Using a tiny screw driver squash any socket that is a bit too open or loose, put a tiny twist on each blade of the relay, while they might be making some form of connection its often not enough.
*Each relay can also be checked, any soft latching relays can be replaced.
*using small amounts of carbon conductive grease on the relay blades is also a good idea.

*Keep in mind - Carbon conductive grease is NOT the same thing as dielectric grease (silicone grease).

[oldie]

Another update
So just back from the indy after rebuiiding the transfer box. At last service there were 5 broken teeth on the magnetic plug ! Seems many moons ago I had the rear seal replaced and in the process the power take off shaft was not put back properly resulting in poor meshing and some broken teeth !
And while it was there asked the indy about the starting problem. Got a phone call to say the starter motor was on the way out. Fortunately I had just bought a new motor and was planning to replace it over the weekend anyway. He reckons this was the problem with the motor not firing. Why ? Because the ecu senses the motor speed and will not move to the next step if the motor is not spinning fast enough. Go figure !

So when I picked it up yesterday, the first thing I noticed was how quickly the motor fired !

Fingers crossed but time will tell. Watch this space.

Oldie

[DazzaTD5]

Another update
So just back from the indy after rebuiiding the transfer box. At last service there were 5 broken teeth on the magnetic plug ! Seems many moons ago I had the rear seal replaced and in the process the power take off shaft was not put back properly resulting in poor meshing and some broken teeth !
And while it was there asked the indy about the starting problem. Got a phone call to say the starter motor was on the way out. Fortunately I had just bought a new motor and was planning to replace it over the weekend anyway. He reckons this was the problem with the motor not firing. Why ? Because the ecu senses the motor speed and will not move to the next step if the motor is not spinning fast enough. Go figure !

So when I picked it up yesterday, the first thing I noticed was how quickly the motor fired !

Fingers crossed but time will tell. Watch this space.

Oldie

well lets hope that is it.
Often when the starter is on it's way out they do crank slower than I note compared to others. I'm not sure they are correct though with regards to the ECU sensing the starter speed. The only sensor it could get that from is the crankshaft position sensor.