A quick recovery question...

[Jpdv]

Slightly confused. If I need recovering from the rear, the D4 factory recovery point is pretty crudely finished (as in, crudely enough for me to worry about a soft shackle parting 'spectacularly' under load...).

Can I stick one of the available recovery hitch things in the LR 3.5 ton rated hitch receiver and use that? Steady winch tension only, or kinetic rope? Or is the answer. a flat 'no you fool, you'll die painfully!!'

And if that (ie, 'No') is the answer, has anyone had the eye filed smooth? Any issues doing so? I'd like to be able to use it, but it isn't in a fit state as supplied - I don't really understand what the thinking behind its attractive 'sawtooth' finish is(!)

(And apologies, I would have put this in the recovery folder, but it looks pretty moribund, so thought I'd go where people would see this.)

[DieselLSE]

I'd use a hard shackle there. For what you want to do I'd have no problem using the Landrover towing assembly. Personally, I have a Mitch Hitch and would use a hard shackle connected to one of the shackle holes. (The Mitch Hitch is permanently attached to that recovery point and two other chassis points).

[Poida4x4]

I have a soft shackle compatible insert for my Mitch Hitch for this purpose

[Jpdv]

Thanks guys. Yup, I'd be happy with using one in the mitch hitch, because there's no (or much less) 'torqueing' with one, because of the way it's all locked in... The standard hitch (which I have) is better than the old D3 plough, but still means that it is being torqued if you put serious loading from it. I'm not experienced enough to know whether it'll cope with no issues, or risk something breaking just when one really doesn't need it.

Any other views out there?

[Tote]

I have had no issues with recovery using the factory recovery points and whilst there is not an official rating for them they are more than adequate for most offroad recoveries. If a mitch hitch was fitted I'd happily use that as it uses the factory chassis mount anyway, but if not fitted the last thing I'd use would be the factory tow hitch


The factory tow hitch introduces leverage that may twist the chassis if overloaded.
The Factory tow hitch may damage its locking mechanism or the socket o the chassis leaving it unremovable or unusable
The factory recovery/tow point is there for a reason and is more than strong enough. If you break it you would break any other means of attachment for the recovery method you are using


There is a notional loading of 6 tons on those recovery points but as with any recovery point it is impossible to rate them due to the difference in dynamic loads that could be generated. There's a bit of an explanation of this here using a notional 80KM/h recovery speed and a permanently stuck vehicle here RECOVERY POINTS VS TIE DOWN POINTS - Unsealed 4X4 (http://unsealed4x4.com.au/recovery-points-vs-tie-points/)

Regards,
Tote

[Jpdv]

And I reckon that last answer nails it for me... Good points re ending up with a buggered load of lumps... In that case, I think it's the factory eye with a bit of coarse file work to get the worst of the built in shackle cutter gone.

[goldey]

Or carry a rated bow shackle that attaches to the factory recovery point and is much nicer to your soft shackle? Until I get my hands on a mitch hitch (or equivalent) that's what I've got planned.

[Jpdv]

Or carry a rated bow shackle that attaches to the factory recovery point and is much nicer to your soft shackle? Until I get my hands on a mitch hitch (or equivalent) that's what I've got planned.


I actually have one, but have 2 concerns as it stands:

1. I'm slightly uneasy about it twisting to the left or right in the eye in a 'not completely straight' recovery (ie most of them...). I worry about general banging up of the electrics etc if this happens.

2. Again, as it stands, the eye is so rough that it will - possibly to a worse extent than with a soft shackle - concentrate load at one or two points on the rated bow shackle cross pin - which negates its rating...

Probably over-thinking, but the loads involved dictate a bit of caution - I have personal experience of recovery going wrong, and seen windows destroyed, etc etc - so I'd rather play it safe and be boring...

So agree with your suggestion, but in any case, its getting a bloody smoothing first!

[shanegtr]

I cant see an issue with taking some rough spots out on the loop - not going to have a negative effect if that is all you are doing.

[l00kin4]

I cant see an issue with taking some rough spots out on the loop - not going to have a negative effect if that is all you are doing.

Totally agree. I have filed mine out so it is smooth for a soft shackle and have used it no problem.

David

[Tombie]

Given you can run a very decent sized conventional shackle I would be looking to go that way. Soft shackles are cute, and yes may well reduce ballistic mass in the case of failure - however in this case the oversized steel shackle will more than compenasate for any foolishness during recovery.

[ScottLS]

I asked a similar question as the OP, and the feedback was that the built in recovery points are preferable to other options such as the tow hitch. So I have used a medium round file which easily removed the rough 'dags' on the inside of the rear point, then used a Dremel to very gently grind it smooth (don't want to remove material), and finally touched up with some anti-rust black paint. I plan to use a soft shackle directly in there. The front point is fine as is.

[Tote]

Given you can run a very decent sized conventional shackle I would be looking to go that way. Soft shackles are cute, and yes may well reduce ballistic mass in the case of failure - however in this case the oversized steel shackle will more than compenasate for any foolishness during recovery.

I heard an interesting point of view from a driver trainer today. "Old fashioned " recovery gear originates from the lifting game where it needs to comply with a set of accredited standards for safe working load. Soft shackles and such do not need to comply with any standard and can be labelled with what ever working load the manufacturer thinks is cool....

Regards,
Tote

[chuck]

As a qualified rigger i would prefer to use a rated shackle.

Much more redundancy built in.

Recently on a major Victorian civil project a recovery soft sling was inadvertently inserted into a lifting arrangement for a soft sling due to mis labelling.

The recovery sling failed even before the load was lifted off the ground, this was despite the fact it was supposed to be rated for the intended load.

As previously said recovery equipment does not have the same redundancy built in as lifting equipment.

[DiscoJeffster]

I’ll just stick to my old school monster shackles

[Jpdv]

In the end I did exactly what ScottL describes above: file (difficult to use effectively in the space available), Dremel (flexible drive shaft), black paint. It's now smooth enough.

With respect to all the advice, many thanks. I'm aware of the relative strengths of soft, hard etc etc etc. I just like the cost/benefit of the weight and space savings with soft stuff against the amount of use, and actually would prefer an 'unrated' soft shackle to give up rather than (as I have seen in the past) rated shackles being bent/stretched by over-enthusiastic recovery efforts....

I still remember watching a REME recovery vehicle pull a 140 tonne pair of challenger tanks, connected in tandem, out of a bog in Canada. Now that was truly interesting. I got a bloody long way clear before they started pulling. Driver closed down the hatches, and the noise was something to hear...

[shanegtr]

I heard an interesting point of view from a driver trainer today. "Old fashioned " recovery gear originates from the lifting game where it needs to comply with a set of accredited standards for safe working load. Soft shackles and such do not need to comply with any standard and can be labelled with what ever working load the manufacturer thinks is cool....

Regards,
Tote
Lifting gear has a fairly large safety margin on the WLL or SWL (what ever you want to call it), where as I believe a lot of recovery stuff is rated as a breaking point - ie an 8t snatch strap breaks around 8t of load. Shackles from memory have a margin of around 6 times the rated SWL - 4.75t shackle should fail up around 30t of load


As a qualified rigger i would prefer to use a rated shackle.
Chuck would have more of an idea on the margins - I done my dogging course probably 18-20 years ago and havent done any lifting (at work) for probably 10 years or more now

[Tombie]

There’s a kicker with soft shackles that is not taken into account.

Angles….

Rope tightly around a strap loop reduces the rated capacity.
Radius around a pin etc gives rope its strength.

It’s why winch rope should have a ferrule or be mounted to a hook with such radius built in.

Same in the strap loop, the thin shackle point loads that loop, whereas the pin or body of a large shackle gives radius and load spreads.

Soft shackles are almost a gimmick looking for a market to sell to. If weight in vehicle is that borderline then you have other issues to contend with.

A 4.75t shackle will fail long after the sling has parted.