Now Toyotagate

[goingbush]

You'd have thought they would have learned something from VW.

Toyota face $2,000,000,000 class action over alleged emissions defeat devices (https://unsealed4x4.com.au/toyota-face-2000000000-class-action-over-alleged-emissions-defeat-devices)

[JDNSW]

Sounds a bit as if they did!

Perhaps worth also looking at the refrigerator and freezer manufacturers who have followed a similar path to meet power consumption standards and labelling.

[spudfan]

Over here they have TV ads advising to "leave diesel behind" and go to their "green" electric vehicles for a "better future."

[BradC]

Over here they have TV ads advising to "leave diesel behind" and go to their "green" electric vehicles for a "better future."

There's one born every minute. I did the sums the other day because some self-righteous **** on another forum was boasting about the "consumption" of his Tesla. It worked out roughly 70g of coal per KM. By rough calcs my D3 does about 78g of Diesel per KM. Now Diesel holds roughly twice the energy per g, but then it also doesn't have the benefit of scale for thermodynamic efficiency. In theory if he charged his Tesla from a big Diesel plant it'd be even more efficient!

[RANDLOVER]

There's one born every minute. I did the sums the other day because some self-righteous **** on another forum was boasting about the "consumption" of his Tesla. It worked out roughly 70g of coal per KM. By rough calcs my D3 does about 78g of Diesel per KM. Now Diesel holds roughly twice the energy per g, but then it also doesn't have the benefit of scale for thermodynamic efficiency. In theory if he charged his Tesla from a big Diesel plant it'd be even more efficient!

IIRC the only place/s an ICE car is marginally cleaner than coal is in eastern Europe using brown coal and no renewables on the grid, although that might've been petrol vs coal. Also no one uses diesel for base load power generation unless they absolutely have to, think islands, mine sites, etc, as diesel is less efficient, peak lopping for quick response and when the power price is high is a different story. In Aus and most parts of the world there are already renewables on the grid and it is only going to increase, so electric cars are just going to become cleaner. As far as I know it is nearly always better for emissions to replace a fossil fuel car with an electric one, and this is even more valid if it is an older car. I know not everyone can do as it depends on usage, so unless they install EV chargers along the Canning Stock Route, Simpson Desert Crossing, etc, we will just have to hold on to our ICE vehicles.

[3toes]

How the power is generated is a big part of the picture. German government study found that with their current generation mix a diesel was greener than an electric

[loanrangie]

How the power is generated is a big part of the picture. German government study found that with their current generation mix a diesel was greener than an electric

Thats it, they are pushing for more EV's with no thought on how we are going to charge them or the environmental cost to do so - green my arse.

[NavyDiver]

How the power is generated is a big part of the picture. German government study found that with their current generation mix a diesel was greener than an electric

At the risk of turning to CA topic- Germany shutting more than 10% of its C02 free Nuclear power off last year (2021) and just delaying shutting down the other 10% of its best C02 free Nuclear power until mid 2023 only and Rip down some Wind power to dig up more coal and .......... is the perfect example of what 'Not' to do. All 6 nuclear plants could work for 80 years or more! The 6 German nuclear plants are some of the youngest and safest in the world! (Nuclear was >21% of German power 10 years ago)

Back to toyo gate- I was driving behind a diesel toyos last night and again this morning- Black smoke was billowing from both every time they took of from traffic light stops. They had windows up very quickly in my car.

The Smoke screen both put out rivaled HMAS Vampire blowing soot! Nice informed people tell me diesels driving short distances all the time never get hot enough for the Pollution control parts to work seeing a significant amount of expensive repairs and faults.
(that was relating to Landrovers)

" (VIC)
Report smoky cars and vehicles
(https://www.epa.vic.gov.au/report-pollution/smoky-cars)

You can report a smoky vehicle to EPA. It must be less than 4.5 tonnes and release smoke for 10 seconds or more. (https://www.epa.vic.gov.au/report-pollution/smoky-cars)

"
I could report. Should I is the question? I like my lungs [bigwhistle]

[discomatt69]

I could report. Should I is the question? I like my lungs [bigwhistle]

Absolutely, the health of our planet should be put above all else, you are an advocate of corona lock downs and mandated vaccines to protect individuals yet ask that question when it comes to the future of mankind.

[trout1105]

I could report. Should I is the question? I like my lungs [bigwhistle]

Absolutely, the health of our planet should be put above all else, you are an advocate of corona lock downs and mandated vaccines to protect individuals yet ask that question when it comes to the future of mankind.

Hmmm.
Coming from someone that owns two large 4WD's that are used recreationally seems somewhat hypocritical[bigwhistle]

[discomatt69]

Hmmm.
Coming from someone that owns two large 4WD's that are used recreationally seems somewhat hypocritical[bigwhistle]

No not at all, for starters I can only drive one at a time so no increase in emissions, the old Disco 1 would be the least polluting because it is constantly recycled not turned to waste and 99% of its running is on LPG, look up the exhaust emissions if you need to.

Are you implying anyone with a 4wd is an environmental disaster?

All I was pointing out was on one hand severe actions were warranted and justified to save a few yet to save a much bigger long term issue was questionable

[NavyDiver]

No not at all, for starters I can only drive one at a time so no increase in emissions, the old Disco 1 would be the least polluting because it is constantly recycled not turned to waste and 99% of its running is on LPG, look up the exhaust emissions if you need to.

Are you implying anyone with a 4wd is an environmental disaster?

All I was pointing out was on one hand severe actions were warranted and justified to save a few yet to save a much bigger long term issue was questionable

EPA vic report is for cars not maintained and honestly should not be on the road at all with out repairs and required maintenance. Well maintained is not a focus of EPA happily. To pick on legal vehicles untill we have several affordable replacement options would be stupid i.m.o.[thumbsupbig]

[trout1105]

Are you implying anyone with a 4wd is an environmental disaster?

What I am impling is that Anyone that owns a large 4WD as a recreational vehicle has no buisness playing the "Green Card" about saving the enviroment.[thumbsupbig]

[scarry]

What I am impling is that Anyone that owns a large 4WD as a recreational vehicle has no buisness playing the "Green Card" about saving the enviroment.[thumbsupbig]

Some may have an EV they use most of the time,and a larger 4WD for touring,and going places a 4WD is needed,and the EV is not suitable.

And have a house that runs off the grid.

Everyone's situation is different.

[trout1105]

Some may have an EV they use most of the time,and a larger 4WD for touring,and going places a 4WD is needed,and the EV is not suitable.

And have a house that runs off the grid.

Everyone's situation is different.

I am talking about "Recreational"use and lets face the facts that there are not too many 4WD's on australian roads that are EV's.

[NavyDiver]

I am talking about "Recreational"use and lets face the facts that there are not too many 4WD's on australian roads that are EV's.

Not yet and do not forget about FCEV as well as BEV coming soon just not yet as usual- I had felt exactly that way waiting for my MGev [biggrin] It does not replace my Disco for the things it is needed for[bigsmile1] Options just might see it replaced before it does the magic 500,000km?

[RANDLOVER]

What I am impling is that Anyone that owns a large 4WD as a recreational vehicle has no buisness playing the "Green Card" about saving the enviroment.[thumbsupbig]

Unless it runs on biodiesel, baby!

[trout1105]

Unless it runs on biodiesel, baby!

I wasn't aware that bio diesel had Zero emmissions and a Zero carbon footprint [bigwhistle]
But then again with the price of diesel at the moment making your own bio diesel is starting to look mighty attractive[thumbsupbig]

[3toes]

I wasn't aware that bio diesel had Zero emmissions and a Zero carbon footprint [bigwhistle][]

Not sure there is a power source in use today that has zero emissions and a zero carbon footprint

[spudfan]

Remember some years ago the revalation that the plant materials for the "bio" part of your diesel was grown on land previously used to grow food crops. As the bio diesel ingredients were getting a better price than the locals could pay for the food, the bio won and the locals lost their land.
A big yoke like a Defender may seem less friendly to the environment than the newer cars. I do not see anything "green" in taking a good sound Defender off the road just to replace it with a newer car like electric, bev, newer petrol or diesel simply for the sake of it. Fair enough if the Defender suffers a major accident and is written off so be it then buy the new modern car. The amount of mining, processing and using ever decreasing resources for batteries, car bodies, plastics etc should be taken into account when a new car is given a "green" label. The new cars have to be transported here by a fossil fuel powered ship. Transported on fossil fuel powered trucks to get to the fancy show room. All of this should be placed against the carbon footprint of newer "green" cars. How about people driving their new "greener" cars to the airport and getting on a plane to fly to a foreign country. They do not see the irony in that. Me, I have never been on an airplane so I like to think I have some "green" credits built up. Also I wonder how long owners will keep their new "greener" car before replacing it with a newer, more "efficient" one? What's that going to do for the environment? Who will buy a second hand electric or bev car when the tv ads will be telling them how much better and "greener" the new model is? So if the car you have has run it's course then fair enough replace it but don't just replace it to keep up with the latest trend.

[RANDLOVER]

I wasn't aware that bio diesel had Zero emmissions and a Zero carbon footprint [bigwhistle]
But then again with the price of diesel at the moment making your own bio diesel is starting to look mighty attractive[thumbsupbig]

It seems like you are singing from the big oil song sheet, trying to split hairs, of course biodiesel has emissions which are then absorbed by the next crop of feed stock for biodiesel production. What you are trying to say is like saying trees are bad for the environment because they emit carbon dioxide!

[RANDLOVER]

Remember some years ago the revalation that the plant materials for the "bio" part of your diesel was grown on land previously used to grow food crops. As the bio diesel ingredients were getting a better price than the locals could pay for the food, the bio won and the locals lost their land.........

There are many ways to produce biodiesel, as it can be made from any vegetable or animal oil, just not mineral oil. The best is from used cooking oil, as it would have been grown to cook with and then is made into B100, which is 100% bio. Biodiesel is actually a bit of a misnomer, as it is really a FAME a Fatty Acid Methyl Ester.

[trout1105]

What you are trying to say is like saying trees are bad for the environment because they emit carbon dioxide!

how on earth did you come to that conclusion?
What I AM saying is that Regardless of the type of fuel you are running in your engine it ALL emits emssions So biodiesel is Not the holey grail of green/clean fuels.
The advantage with biodiesel is that it is Renewable unlike fossil fuels But it still emits polutants when burnt in an engine just like oil from the ground does.

[Tombie]

Let’s face it…

Mum & Dad having kids generates more emissions.
More than just replacing with a new generation eg. 2 make 2 then the emissions get worse!

Don’t worry so much about the emissions side of things - worry about magnetic shift. It’s going to cause far more widespread damage to humans.

The planet is going to solve its problems [emoji13]


Back on topic - I hope, if it’s true, Toyota are put through the wringer on this.

[Saitch]

Let’s face it…

Mum & Dad having kids generates more emissions.
More than just replacing with a new generation eg. 2 make 2 then the emissions get worse!

Don’t worry so much about the emissions side of things - worry about magnetic shift. It’s going to cause far more widespread damage to humans.

The planet is going to solve its problems [emoji13]


Back on topic - I hope, if it’s true, Toyota are put through the wringer on this.

I wonder if the increase in Cosmogenic Nuclides will eventually be assimilated into the current Climate Change agenda?

[scarry]

Let’s face it…

Mum & Dad having kids generates more emissions.
More than just replacing with a new generation eg. 2 make 2 then the emissions get worse!

Don’t worry so much about the emissions side of things - worry about magnetic shift. It’s going to cause far more widespread damage to humans.



Australia generates around 1.2% of world emissions....so less than a drop in the ocean

But we should try to reduce them,without being silly and stupid about it all.Do it sensibly,and not create other problems on the way.
Which seems impossible for some.[bighmmm]

Back on topic,i wonder which vehicle manufacturer hasn't bent the rules on emissions,more than likely none?
The bigger manufacturers will always be the targets,as there is more to gain from successfull action against them.

[Tins]

Unless it runs on biodiesel, baby!

At the cost of food production.

[Tins]

Interesting bringing VW Dieselgate into this. All VW did was make cars to pass a test. If that's a problem then better tests are required. The poor testing protocols are hardly VW's fault.

VW were cynical, not criminal, but that doesn't matter in today's 'trial by "social" media world'.

Agree that Toyota should have learned from it though. I wonder if they will get the pillory treatment VW did. Somehow I doubt it.

[spudfan]

People have short memories. They are busy buying VW "green" cars. If they lied about diesel emissions what makes people swallow their "green" agenda.

[scarry]

Agree that Toyota should have learned from it though. I wonder if they will get the pillory treatment VW did. Somehow I doubt it.

Going take years for anything to happen,the last class action against them hasn't been sorted,and its been going on for ages.
Half of it was thrown out,the other half is being appealed.

By the time this next lot is sorted,diesels might be extinct[tonguewink]

[Tombie]

People have short memories. They are busy buying VW "green" cars. If they lied about diesel emissions what makes people swallow their "green" agenda.

More that they just like the car.

[scarry]

More that they just like the car.

Same for Toyota,or for that matter Ford a few years back.
People have short memories,Ford was fined a huge amount,one of the biggest fines in Aus corporate history and had to give thousands of people new cars.Their issue was not emissions related,more to do with unconsciable conduct and lying to customers.

Did it make any difference to their sales?
I doubt it.
I don’t know about Ford at the time,but Toyota sales seem to continue to boom,at the moment,so one would think these class actions make very little difference to sales numbers.

[scarry]

To be fair, probably all vehicle manufacturers had issues with DPF's.


Jaguar Land Rover facing class action over allegedly faulty diesel particulate filters (https://www.whichcar.com.au/news/jaguar-land-rover-facing-class-action-over-allegedly-faulty-diesel-particulate-filters?fbclid=IwAR0sQkqRCEH-vD5nO7S5D4wFrYDfo9pIWGXjm6WexhCsXHWNQf2q8TI-v7U)

[Saitch]

To be fair, probably all vehicle manufacturers had issues with DPF's.


...............and lawyers.

[350RRC]

To be fair, probably all vehicle manufacturers had issues with DPF's.

...................

Maybe depends if a DPF was an 'afterthought' or just 'after the turbocharger' aka Isuzu.

DL

[cripesamighty]

I found this video quite a few years ago which explained the different DPF designs quite well, and also which designs were not so great to put onto a vehicle. Needless to say these are the ones that many car manufacturers have gone with.

Understanding Diesel DPF Regeneration - YouTube (https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=fNO-oUHmKXU)