Weird Puma gear change problem

[Brid]

I've got a 110 Puma Defender 2007.

At 336,000km, my gearbox failed and a brand-new Land Rover gearbox was fitted by a gearbox specialist. From the start, it was always notchy and required careful changes to avoid crunching gears. I just learned to live with it.

Now 33,000km later, intermittent problems occur, which makes it hard for a mechanic to diagnose.
• Gear shifts get harder, and grate more easily
• Sometimes I’ve needed to match revs and change without the clutch, as it doesn’t seem to disengage, despite a normal clutch pedal feel. Clutch hydraulics check out OK.
• Sometimes while idling in neutral at lights, I cannot select any gear. So I stop the engine & restart in first, it doesn’t lurch, but it’s the only way to get moving.
• I also have a decent vibration at times, commonly evident at 80kph up a hill, if I apply a little more throttle. If I back off it stops, more throttle and it vibrates again.
• Twice it has crept forward slightly when started, with it in gear and clutch in. It releases its grip quickly.

Any thoughts? These symptoms come and go. Usually OK from a start, then worse around 15km driving.
• Initially I thought a dodgy gearbox. I sent an oil sample to lab and it showed high Iron, which could just be run-in wear, as there was only fine paste on the magnetic plug. No larger debris.
• It really seems like the clutch is not releasing, although the pedal feels good. No rattly spring noise on shutdown. It feels like the clutch plate sticks to the flywheel, or spline, or input shaft to the spigot bearing, but no squealing noise etc.
• Another thought. It’s had the Ashcroft adaptor shaft kit fitted for ages. Could the gearbox guy have not re-installed it properly, and be causing a problem?

Hope someone has experienced this before. Appreciate any help. Cheers

[BradC]

I've had similar symptoms in both a D1 and a Volvo 144, but in both cases it didn't "come and go" and was due to damage in the pressure plate spring mechanism.

[Brid]

I've had similar symptoms in both a D1 and a Volvo 144, but in both cases it didn't "come and go" and was due to damage in the pressure plate spring mechanism.

Thanks Brad. I decided to pull it out. I'll have a good look at the pressure plate as well for sure. Intermittent issues really are a pain!

[DazzaTD5]

Thanks Brad. I decided to pull it out. I'll have a good look at the pressure plate as well for sure. Intermittent issues really are a pain!

This was going to be my suggestion, remove the box and have a look.

Personally I would simply suck it up and change out the clutch assembly complete including the hydraulics, generally the only item i dont change is the master as they rarely fail.

The mt82 box should never crunch gears its one of the good things about the box is if everything is correct regardless of how hard you smash the gear stick through the syncros / detents slow it all down which makes for a great chunky shift for a Defender.

Yours I am thinking its all clutch related.
I have heard of other workshops that fitted a brand of clutch (dont know the brand) and they were having the same issue you described, another clutch and it was fine.

[spudfan]

I would ask what fluid they used in the gearbox. They may be experts but mistakes do happen.

[Brid]

Just to follow up, here's what I found...

I pulled the transfer and gearbox out yesterday. One of the clutch springs had popped out and lodged behind the diaphragm.

I couldn't hear any clutch rattle on shutdown, so I was surprised to see that. Actually, I was pretty happy to see that, and not having to look elsewhere.

This was the second clutch to throw a spring, and it had heavier springs than the original OEM one. I don't know what brand that one was, but definitely much bigger springs.

All springs were quite loose, and with wear marks.

I have a LOF kit coming to replace it.

Cheers
Brid

[DazzaTD5]

springs falling out is common to the Ford/Land Rover **** clutch, i do 3 or 4 clutch replacements a month

[Tikka7mm08]

I'm really happy with my LOF extreme clutch. Factory OEM clutches are rubbish I think.

[Tins]

springs falling out is common to the Ford/Land Rover **** clutch, i do 3 or 4 clutch replacements a month

This the damper springs you are talking about? That's not good.

[DazzaTD5]

This the damper springs you are talking about? That's not good.

yep, they are just a rubbish ford clutch that really isnt upto the job at hand

[Brid]

Just thinking back and what a crazy comedy of errors this saga has been!

It all started with a noise in 1st and 2nd gears, and I suspected either gearbox or clutch, so I took it to a gearbox specialist who could do either in house.

He found damage to a shaft and gears, which was a "normal thing for the 6 speed box". Although I was happy for him to rebuild the box, it was the same cost as a brand new one, so we went that way.

I asked him to check out the clutch and he said it was good, and it looked like it only had 10,000km wear. It had actually done about 100,000km but as I'm not hard on clutches, I was happy to hear that.

The gearbox warranty was separate to his install, and if there was any claim on it, the install cost would be charged out again.

When I got the vehicle back (it was tilt trayed back) gear changes were terrible. Reluctant to pay for another install, I changed the oil to my regular preference, and it did improve, but required slower more careful changes, which I adapted to. Some boxes are better than others, and I felt sure that it was a gearbox trait. I did over 30,000kms like that until it abruptly became worse.

I had considered getting the same gearbox specialist to fix it, but he quoted over $3k and said he doesn't do work on Land Rovers any more, but would "help me out". I knew that was way too dear, at about twice his original labour cost, so I pulled the gearbox out myself, to find that a clutch spring had popped out! There was also a lot of dents on the flywheel, and the previous spigot bearing had been drilled as well as into the flywheel itself, which would have affected its balance a little as well. This could only have been from the gearbox specialist's work. That might explain why he doesn't work on Land Rovers now! I don't get it! If I can do it, why would someone specializing in gearboxes botch it?

I installed a new LOF clutch, spigot bearing, etc and it now changes well, and the gearbox feels very good compared to when it was first installed. A bad vibration up hill under load which was likely due to the popped spring has also disappeared. I can only assume that the clutch plate had loose springs when the new box went in, and wasn't inspected properly, despite having to remove it completely to get the spigot out!

Funnily this gearbox specialist has (or had) a very good reputation. I guess it always pays to deal with Land Rover specialists, and this is my take away.

[DazzaTD5]

A crazy comedy of errors except its costs you money....

*I just about see or hear this weekly, numerous incorrect diagnostics from both owners and workshops that simply don't know enough about a model to correctly repair it.

*There is no way I would ever rebuild the mt82 gearbox and not do the clutch and all its hydraulics at the same time. I also would have asked if the adaptor shaft had been done and what one was in there.

*also when rebuilding the mt82 box they always get a new mainshaft, its the norm on that box.

If i'm unsure about a diagnostic I've made I generally steer owners towards another workshop that is familiar with a particular model.
It can be frustrating sometimes when I hear owners and workshops complicating and re-inventing the wheel for no reason.

Another thing that adds to this sort of situation is somehow workshops have it in their heads that if an owner brings a vehicle to them they are obligated to do the job.
If it's not a familiar model to me, I'm not touching it (yes the list is quite extensive).