the chinese connection

[ramblingboy42]

two things today...

1. I read a road test on the new Cannon X dual cab 4wd. The guy and his mate doing the test were extremely impressed with the vehicle all round except for Australia's stupid obsession with acceleration. Anyway they claim it will knock the hats off the "leading" competitors in 4wd dual cab stakes.....big call , but as they said list price of similarly equipped vehicles are $20-40k+ dearer. In some cases they could buy 2 Cannon X's for the price of other similar vehicles.

2. ....and on an opposite point I went through the LDV t60 personal test drive route this arvo. I drove 3 different models , the "Pro" , the "Luxe" and a preceeded LWB "Luxe".

I was very impressed with the 3 vehicles and the performance of the newer two with 160kw/500nm /8sp was very good , while the preceeded one had the 2.8 /6sp(cummins?) which showed the techno engine leap quite substantially. The ride on the lwb was so smooth it was unlike a 4wd at all.

I came away without purchasing a new one because my old 2012 model manual Ranger got ****canned in the trade-in , but both parties are still in the hunt and if we can come to better agreement vis towbar and some other lollies I would do the business. Warranty/dealer support is higher than the leading brands.

Interesting to chat openly with the dealer principal about the total current Land Rover packages......they all know what each other is doing.

[Saitch]

My brother has had an LDV T60 for a few years now and has had no real issues with it. He has had it on Gnoorganbin (Moreton Is.) without any dramas, although ground clearance isn't all that flash. The only hiccough we had was when he forgot about the TC being on and hit some really powdery, hot sand. That'll stop you![smilebigeye]

I'm sure there will be pros and cons for them.

[chuck]

Read the road test on the new TDV e60 electric twin cab.

It got absolutely hammered and is $90,000 approx on the road.

Lowest review score i have ever seen

Seems to be a fair bit of opportunistic pricing

[Saitch]

Read the road test on the new TDV e60 electric twin cab.

It got absolutely hammered and is $90,000 approx on the road.

Lowest review score i have ever seen

Seems to be a fair bit of opportunistic pricing

Is that the one that is limited to towing a box trailer? [biggrin]

[ramblingboy42]

Interesting how different people perceive things.

A mate had an early model GWM wagon which while remaining mechanically sound developed rattles and body shakes and flexing off road to a point where he couldn't live with it and bought a colorado , which I believe is the base for the early LDV t60's.

I think the latest batch of chinese / korean vehicles have their **** together now , and that bloke just might be right about knocking a few hats off.

[ChookD2]

Anyone for a Yangwang.....[bigrolf]

BYD to come after Land Rover Defender and Mercedes-Benz G-Class with $200k Yangwang luxury off-road SUV? - CarsGuide | Car News (https://www.carsguide.com.au/car-news/byd-to-come-after-land-rover-defender-and-mercedes-benz-g-class-with-200k-yangwang-88321)


"What do you drive?"

"A Yangwang" :Rolling::Rolling::Rolling:

[Tins]

Anyone for a Yangwang.....[bigrolf]

BYD to come after Land Rover Defender and Mercedes-Benz G-Class with $200k Yangwang luxury off-road SUV? - CarsGuide | Car News (https://www.carsguide.com.au/car-news/byd-to-come-after-land-rover-defender-and-mercedes-benz-g-class-with-200k-yangwang-88321)

I hope in this case they leave the camouflage ON.


"What do you drive?"

"A Yangwang"

Well, it's competition for SsangYong. Not sure LR and MB drivers should be the intended market.. outside of China at least.

[DazzaTD5]

Some time ago there was a court case, LDV T60 with structural rust and manufacturer was not going to cover it under warranty.

Gee that sounds like a great company to buy a car from [bighmmm]

[Bearman]

No way I would buy one. With the way China is bullying the world and making strategic military bases across the Pacific (even on our doorstep) and the tarrifs they have unjustly imposed on our products i reckon people should speak with their pockets. These days I try NOT to buy anything made in China but sometimes there is no alternative.

[Homestar]

Some time ago there was a court case, LDV T60 with structural rust and manufacturer was not going to cover it under warranty.


Gee that sounds like a great company to buy a car from [bighmmm]

Yep - You only have to look at the court ruling against LDV regarding rust after they refused a warranty claim because the owner lived near the ocean and if that isn't enough to make you run a mile from any Chinese vehicle, I don't know what will. While I would expect any vehicle kept in a seaside town to have a shorter life than a drier inland town, rust bad enough to write the vehicle off within 3 years (it wasn't driven in salt water - they just lived near it) makes me wonder what these things are made of (I think we all know the answer to that). Owner also paid extra for rust protection - Rigby v LDV Automotive Pty Ltd [2021] QCAT 316 - Queensland Civil and Administrative Tribunal Caselaw (https://www.queenslandjudgments.com.au/caselaw/qcat/2021/316)

I'll save you the trouble reading it - LDV were instructed to give the owner a full refund and take their ****box back, but there are interesting things in there - like the $49K repair bill that was quoted because ‘Although we can replace panels that have corrosion it appears that it is coming from between panels and could be due to insufficient steel protection used when joining/folding/welding therefore any new panels supplied could do the same thing as we cannot separate these, rust is also coming through on some parts in the middle of panels where there are no joints, this suggests contaminated steel prior to painting’.

And if you think the trade in value of your Ranger is bad, wait until you have to trade in an unknown Chinese POS.

Just my 2 cents, but I would run - not walk - away from any of these vehicles.

And I can't see any decent business buying any Chinese vehicle for their fleets for a variety of reasons - trade in being 1 of the biggest - justified or not, Hiluxes are worth nearly as much after 2 years as a brand new one - easy to change them over for very little extra outlay. Looks like LDV's lose around $5K when you drive them out of the showroom and another $5K within 2 years. That's nearly a third of their value for the base model.

[Tins]

And if you think the trade in value of your Ranger is bad, wait until you have to trade in an unknown Chinese POS.



Trade them in? You aren't supposed to trade them in. They're like circular saws: you throw them away once the blade gets blunt.

[Saitch]

Trade them in? You aren't supposed to trade them in. They're like circular saws: you throw them away once the blade gets blunt.

Big John would've taken them.[smilebigeye]

[Tins]

Trade them in? You aren't supposed to trade them in. They're like circular saws: you throw them away once the blade gets blunt.

I should add, though: There are many, many quality goods made in China. They are made under the quality control supervision of the parent company, which is not Chinese. The computer I'm typing this on, for example, was made in China 13 years ago and is still excellent. I have drawers full of American branded, Chinese made cordless tools that are awesome. A number of European brand cars are built there. But the old saying, "you get what you pay for", holds very true here.

[Tins]

Big John would've taken them.[smilebigeye]

Thort 'e was dead...

[Homestar]

I should add, though: There are many, many quality goods made in China. They are made under the quality control supervision of the parent company, which is not Chinese. The computer I'm typing this on, for example, was made in China 13 years ago and is still excellent. I have drawers full of American branded, Chinese made cordless tools that are awesome. A number of European brand cars are built there. But the old saying, "you get what you pay for", holds very true here.

Very true on all counts there. A Chinese car from a Chinese company isn't high on my shopping list.

[Saitch]

A Chinese car from a Chinese company isn't high on my shopping list.

Imagine reading the instructions! :bangin:

[Tins]

Very true on all counts there. A Chinese car from a Chinese company isn't high on my shopping list.

Nor mine. Even if someone else is paying for it.

People compare them to Japan. I'm old enough to remember when everyone laughed at Japanese cars. Thing is, those cars, the RT40 Corona, the Colt 1100, the Datsun 1000, the strangely named Nissan Cedric, those cars, the ones that didn't die in accidents or get sent for scrap, are still going. I'm not psychic, but I reckon I can predict that the same won't be said of these LDVs, Havals etc. in 60 years. My D1 might be though. Well, it's already 30..

[ramblingboy42]

well the dealer values their vehicle higher than I do....so.....no deal. Chinese connection dead.

if you were buying @ $45k , without a sermon , what would you buy?

[Saitch]

Mahindra? Agricultural, like a 'Proper' 'tilly.

[Tins]

Mahindra? Agricultural, like a 'Proper' 'tilly.

Mahindra's main competitor is Tata, who own guess who.

[Homestar]

well the dealer values their vehicle higher than I do....so.....no deal. Chinese connection dead.

if you were buying @ $45k , without a sermon , what would you buy?

Dual cab 4x2 Hirider Hilux - $46K, Single Cab Trayback 4x4 Hilux - $47K. Both povo packs 2.4 litre diesels but they would hold their value well and I would drive either (and have) over a Chinese offering. I had a base model Hilux for many years as a company car - suspension sucked, but so does my current model SR5...

Failing that, a second hand newer version of a dual cab - apart from the early Rangers, which it sounds like you have now - gearbox go bang bang on those.

Does it just need to do utility duties or have to be 4WD?

[ramblingboy42]

It has to be 4x4 , another extended inside Simpson crossing coming up next year , followed by a Wolf Creek trip , or a climb up the western side of Queensland.

there are some 2021 model Rangers on the market now over $110k , some new models over $120k+

nothing wrong with my Ranger , I was considering upgrading to auto/dual cab to allow swmbo to drive/use.....I'm a kept man but the Ranger is too much of a truck to her. The German connection is next try.

[ChookD2]

The German connection is next try.

If your talking Amarok, one bad thing about them (auto) I've heard (unless it has been fixed) is that they can't reverse over a house brick. Many have had trouble reversing trailers and caravans up driveways etc.

Something to do with torque limiting in reverse. :spudnikwhat:IDK. There is plenty on the net about it.

[ozscott]

Every day of the week I would take that $45k and put it on an MR Triton automatic. There is no better value and reliability proposition on the market. Cheers

[ozscott]

Or an MQ with very low k's (plenty for sale under 50,000) with some fruit already installed for that price or less. Cheers

[NavyDiver]

Imagine reading the instructions! :bangin:



A nifty trick for that Saitchgoogle translate - Google Search (https://www.google.com/search?client=firefox-b-d&q=google+translate)


One version on my phone reads Russian or Chinese for me or has a almost real time conversation [biggrin]

[Tins]

Dunno why people ignore the D-Max, which is possibly better than all of 'em, or the Mazda BT-50, the current one of which is based on the Isuzu.

Of course, whichever one, there is a long wait for delivery atm.

[trout1105]

One of my young blokes bought himself a brand new Mahindra dual cab 5 years ago and has had nothing but problems with it since day dot, He has vowed Never to buy another Chinese manufactured 4WD ever again.

Eventually the Chinese manufacturers will finally get the quality and build right But untill then the Japs have the 4WD market pretty well sewn up.

[Tins]

One of my young blokes bought himself a brand new Mahindra dual cab 5 years ago and has had nothing but problems with it since day dot, He has vowed Never to buy another Chinese manufactured 4WD ever again.



Is he certain it was made in China? It could have been because Mahindra has two plants there, but they are an Indian company so it could have been made on the Sub Continent.

Serious question.

[trout1105]

Is he certain it was made in China? It could have been because Mahindra has two plants there, but they are an Indian company so it could have been made on the Sub Continent.

Serious question.

He doesn't care Where it was built he will Never buy another one.

[Tins]

He doesn't care Where it was built he will Never buy another one.

Fair enough, and I don't blame him, but you posted this


He has vowed Never to buy another Chinese manufactured 4WD ever again.

I was merely interested if the thing actually was built in China, given that's kinda what the thread is about.

[ozscott]

Dunno why people ignore the D-Max, which is possibly better than all of 'em, or the Mazda BT-50, the current one of which is based on the Isuzu.

Of course, whichever one, there is a long wait for delivery atm.They are good mate but trading on an old rep for reliability to some extent. They have had issues that are not uncommon with turbo failures over the last few years and a major structural faults it seems. Cheers

[prelude]

Nor mine. Even if someone else is paying for it.

People compare them to Japan. I'm old enough to remember when everyone laughed at Japanese cars. Thing is, those cars, the RT40 Corona, the Colt 1100, the Datsun 1000, the strangely named Nissan Cedric, those cars, the ones that didn't die in accidents or get sent for scrap, are still going. I'm not psychic, but I reckon I can predict that the same won't be said of these LDVs, Havals etc. in 60 years. My D1 might be though. Well, it's already 30..


Ah yes, perhaps :) Although china is looking like it will go through everything Japan has gone through I do believe that there are a few factors that are not the same. First of all, the runners up to Japan are the Koreans. In the seventies the Japanese competed everyone out of the market with cheap (casette) decks and what not but from then on they became the masters in that area, the same with cars. China has not really gone along that same path in short succession to the Japanese, Korea has. In the 90's nobody wanted a kia or hyundai and come the naughties they were not very popular but getting pretty good and I would argue that the both of them are the Honda and Toyota of today. China (and india) still have a loooooooooong way to go to match that, if ever.

It used to be that there was a large gap between the scores on reliability surveys between Japanese and European brands. These days the top 5 is not exclusively Japanese anymore and unfortunately this is NOT because European cars have gotten that much better, the Japanese have gotten so much worse unfortunately (in my experience). This is also because of how the market is these days and I do not believe china or India for that matter are ever going to get to the point Honda and Toyota used to be in the 90's for example.

Also, I too am typing on a 2014 PC made in china since everything is produced there these days, but when and if I have the change I no longer buy anything from that country, not because I hate the people but I certainly do NOT want to sponsor the CCP in any form or way.

Cheers,
-P

[ramblingboy42]

What manufacture are the chinese people driving? Are there rapidly growing car junkyards there because the vehicles are no good? Are the chinese people knowingly buying low quality cars? Are they knowingly selling poor quality vehicles to Australian dealers?

We are quick to condemn but the amount of necessary maintenance I had to continuously do to my D2 over 8yrs was almost scandalous. Many , many people on this forum do the same thing all the time to their Land Rovers and accept it , but if its a Chinese based vehicle readily condemn it. My brother in law manages a large vehicle network in the Caribbean and turns all Land Rover custom away , no exceptions , but accepts regular work on Chinese and other manufactured vehicles . Lets see what transpires.

[jonesfam]

In 2005 I purchased new a Korean 4WD.
Before Korean Car makers had established a goodish reputation.
No the paint was not as good as a BMW, no the build quality was not as good as some Japanese & no the quality of some materials was not quite Mercedes standard.
But it was extremely comfortable, reliable & capable.
It was about $10,000 cheaper than the nearest comparable vehicle, loaded with kit & had a lot more power & Newton Meters than the Prado of that day.
It had a longer warrantee than 99% of other brands (only used once) & was a lot cheaper to run.
In all it was a good car & I still think it had one of the best diesel motors ever built.

Give China a chance, like the Koreans they just might get their act together.
Jonesfam
PS China's politics is an issue but most of us will vote with our wallets.

[Homestar]

[QUOTE=ramblingboy42;3172471]What manufacture are the chinese people driving? Are there rapidly growing car junkyards there because the vehicles are no good? Are the chinese people knowingly buying low quality cars? Are they knowingly selling poor quality vehicles to Australian dealers?

Good question, and there is a huge amount of EV's rotting away due to the rebates available for them - there is a market over there for buying them and putting them in a paddock for 5 years and keeping them registered as the incentives over that timeframe are worth more than the car - I'll try and find the video on it - it's nuts.

I doubt that a lot of Chinese who may be buying their very first car ever in the family as they start to develop more and more would care too much about quality or what it does to be honest - it's a very different market, but it's an interesting question worth looking at.

[Tins]

. First of all, the runners up to Japan are the Koreans. In the seventies the Japanese competed everyone out of the market with cheap (casette) decks and what not but from then on they became the masters in that area, the same with cars.

Indeed. Japan ran into the problems that beset most nations as they advance technologically: labour costs. It became better for the bottom line to outsource manufacture to "poorer" countries, like S Korea. Mobs like Panasonic and Sony set up factories to make televisions in SK. The knock on effect of this was it taught the S Koreans how to build high quality televisions and they never looked back. Look at Samsung.



China has not really gone along that same path in short succession to the Japanese, Korea has. In the 90's nobody wanted a kia or hyundai and come the naughties they were not very popular but getting pretty good and I would argue that the both of them are the Honda and Toyota of today. China (and india) still have a loooooooooong way to go to match that, if ever.

Totally agree. If I was in the market for a new car I would be taking a very hard look at one from there. I often lust after a Kia Stinger GT ( old school boy racer in me I guess ) which is easily the equal of anything in the same league from Germany. I simply don't see the Chinese chasing that market any time soon. However, they are capable of producing perfectly good VWs and Beemers it would seem.




Also, I too am typing on a 2014 PC made in china since everything is produced there these days, but when and if I have the change I no longer buy anything from that country, not because I hate the people but I certainly do NOT want to sponsor the CCP in any form or way.

Cheers,
-P

That one is difficult. Who else makes the stuff we use daily? S Korea, obviously, but I'm pretty tied into the  ecosystem. I wish I wasn't, as they aren't the company they used to be, but I am. So a Samsung phone/tablet isn't in my future. Perhaps that's why I insist on keeping my Mac running the latest OS even if  refuse to support it.

The Party is the huge issue, and I'm with you totally on that one. I'm constantly amazed by the number of people who claim a social conscience but continue to support that particular group in so many ways. The amazing uptake of the social media platform named after a clock comes to mind.

[NavyDiver]

They are good mate but trading on an old rep for reliability to some extent. They have had issues that are not uncommon with turbo failures over the last few years and a major structural faults it seems. Cheers

I would add a big "NOT" to the Limited Slip diff on the Mazda Bravo was a huge clear fail on a mates in the sand[biggrin] One wheel spinning away and the other side no limited in any way- Not turning in any way either [bigrolf]

[Tins]

I would add a big "NOT" to the Limited Slip diff on the Mazda Bravo was a huge clear fail on a mates in the sand[biggrin] One wheel spinning away and the other side no limited in any way- Not turning in any way either [bigrolf]

Which Bravo? They have changed. Up until 2006 the Bravo was a Mazda vehicle upon which the Ranger was based. Then it was the the B Series Mazda until 2010/11. Then the roles were reversed. The T6 Ranger was designed by Ford Australia, and the Mazda BT-50 was based on that. Somewhere on 2020 the two parted company, and the BT-50 is now based on the Isuzu. All built in Thailand if it matters. All of this is for our market only, things change internationally, and I generalise to some extent.

Of course, your mates diff may simply have been ****ed.

[NavyDiver]

Which Bravo? They have changed. Up until 2006 the Bravo was a Mazda vehicle upon which the Ranger was based. Then it was the the B Series Mazda until 2010/11. Then the roles were reversed. The T6 Ranger was designed by Ford Australia, and the Mazda BT-50 was based on that. Somewhere on 2020 the two parted company, and the BT-50 is now based on the Isuzu. All built in Thailand if it matters. All of this is for our market only, things change internationally, and I generalise to some extent.

Of course, your mates diff may simply have been ****ed.

It was in WA so pre 2000 possibly 1990-95 version- Mate got a ex Police one we bogged a lot while supposed to be fishing- It was me pushing the rotten thing a lot of the time [biggrin]