TD5 -Non Starter after overheat.

[DeeJay]

OK, so its been done to death..but I figure others have had it happen.
I just bought a Disco 2 - off a Diesel mechanic - ( who said he was too busy to swap out a head gasket) that had supposedly overheated and - he thought, shut down due to the fuel cooler overheating.
It got tilt trayed home.
He was selling it as having a blown head gasket. The oil is OK, but has signs of diesel dilution, and no milkyness in the system. He drained the coolant as a precaution.
The thing is, it has a healthy crank over but not a peep of firing.
Se the questions are-
Would no coolant prevent it firing ( ie a sensor)
Would a blown head gasket (I'm skeptical about that- more likely a porous head) be the reason?

Thanks in advance,
David

[shack]

It won't shut down because of overheated fuel, it also won't shut down because of no coolant.

It could definitely seize because of no coolant.

Diesel in the oil is usually injector O rings but could be a cracked head.

The only sensor that will stop it running is the CPS.

If it has diesel in the oil it's possible it also has air in the fuel rail in the head... It won't start if this is the case.

You can initiate a purge cycle by pumping the throttle 7 times with the ignition on so that the dash lights are on... If you can hear funny noises at the fuel pump or at the head, it most likely has air in the system.

If you can't hear the fuel pump, it also won't start.

[Tins]

It won't shut down because of overheated fuel, it also won't shut down because of no coolant.

It could definitely seize because of no coolant.

Diesel in the oil is usually injector O rings but could be a cracked head.

The only sensor that will stop it running is the CPS.

If it has diesel in the oil it's possible it also has air in the fuel rail in the head... It won't start if this is the case.

You can initiate a purge cycle by pumping the throttle 7 times with the ignition on so that the dash lights are on... If you can hear funny noises at the fuel pump or at the head, it most likely has air in the system.

If you can't hear the fuel pump, it also won't start.

What he said... except I thought purge only required 5 pumps.

I usually default to the CPS as a good place to start, but I thought it triggered the MIL, so is that lit up?

You've bought a non runner, so it's best not to assume that what you have been told is correct and just start at basics, otherwise you get lost down rabbit holes.

[DeeJay]

Thanks for the replies,
The seller said he put a new fuel pump in- I can hear it running. but as Tins says, sellers can be a little short on truth, however he did fit a new fuel pressure reg module.
I did try the purging- no luck. I just realised I have a Nanocom for a defender TD5, so I'll try it. Stay tuned.
It cranks nicely, I would assume, even with a dodgy head or blown head gasket it would at least try to kick over?

[Tins]

Nanocom will be fine for the engine. I wasn’t trying to dis the seller but he could misremember.
Yes the engine should at least try. Is the MIL lit?

[RobMichelle]

With a new fuel pump and fpr might as well do injector seals and o rings and new harness and see if she goes

[DeeJay]

I ran the Nanocom through & these are the ones that Google doesn't explain much.

Fuel temperature circuit - (current)
EGR Vacuum modulator short circuit (intermittent)
EGR Valve stuck open (current)
Injectors 2,3,5 open circuit (current)

Are any of these the non start cause?
Thanks, David

[shack]

I ran the Nanocom through & these are the ones that Google doesn't explain much.

Fuel temperature circuit - (current)
EGR Vacuum modulator short circuit (intermittent)
EGR Valve stuck open (current)
Injectors 2,3,5 open circuit (current)

Are any of these the non start cause?
Thanks, DavidInjectors open circuit-current will stop it

[shack]

It cranks nicely, I would assume, even with a dodgy head or blown head gasket it would at least try to kick over?

Can you clarify? Are you saying it won't kick over or it won't start?

If it won't kick over it certainly won't start!

If that's the case investigate the starter or BCU.

If it does kick over then it's not that (could still be immobilised though).

If it does kick over but won't fire, investigate the injector open circuit, could be oil in the ECU plug.

[DeeJay]

Nanocom will be fine for the engine. I wasn’t trying to dis the seller but he could misremember.
Yes the engine should at least try. Is the MIL lit?

I'm not sure so did this video, Ign on, start, ign off ign on again.


https://www.youtube.com/watch?v=iqAPS9DS6rQ

[shack]

It's kicking over ok, just not firing.

I'd investigate the red plug on the ECU, Clean it and see if the open circuit goes away.

Also check the plug going into the corner of the head, that might be damaged/not seated properly.

[DeeJay]

It's kicking over ok, just not firing.

I'd investigate the red plug on the ECU, Clean it and see if the open circuit goes away.

Also check the plug going into the corner of the head, that might be damaged/not seated properly.

I haven't tried a start yet, you were on the money though. Need to find my socket to look into the ECU.

184038

[shack]

I haven't tried a start yet, you were on the money though. Need to find my socket to look into the ECU.

184038It's a torx screw, and usually there isn't any oil in the ECU... Usually.

I'd try cleaning the plug.

[PhilipA]

pluck out the gasket first as any solvents will swell it. I use electronic parts cleaner.
Regards PhilipA

[AK83]

I'd also be inclined to change the old injector loom for a new one. With oil already at the plug, then oil has already wicked through it, and it will oil up the plug again soon enough.
There's also the possibility that the loom could be at issue too.

They're not horrendously expensive, and it's a bit of peace of mind.

You could go "whole hog" and pull injectors to do the seals(peace of mind), and if you have the ability get a compression test done too, as it's supposedly overheated or cracked or whatever.

Seals and loom would cost in the low 100s.

[DeeJay]

I'd also be inclined to change the old injector loom for a new one. With oil already at the plug, then oil has already wicked through it, and it will oil up the plug again soon enough.
There's also the possibility that the loom could be at issue too.

They're not horrendously expensive, and it's a bit of peace of mind.

You could go "whole hog" and pull injectors to do the seals(peace of mind), and if you have the ability get a compression test done too, as it's supposedly overheated or cracked or whatever.

Seals and loom would cost in the low 100s.

I had a pretty good harness from a previous head ( off a accident damaged vehicle) - fitted it, cleaned all the terminals including injectors & ecu, no oil visible now. Cranked her over, same same :bat:, Nanocom says no faults in ecu & not immobilized,
Surely there would be a rumble or kick? Could a blown head gasket create a no firing event?
Running out of options here. The long term plan was to fit an AMC head, but I need to hear some kind of effort to start or fire up.
Could it be the crank sensor? The thing is this vehicle was running before overheating.
David

[shack]

I had a pretty good harness from a previous head ( off a accident damaged vehicle) - fitted it, cleaned all the terminals including injectors & ecu, no oil visible now. Cranked her over, same same :bat:, Nanocom says no faults in ecu & not immobilized,
Surely there would be a rumble or kick? Could a blown head gasket create a no firing event?
Running out of options here. The long term plan was to fit an AMC head, but I need to hear some kind of effort to start or fire up.
Could it be the crank sensor? The thing is this vehicle was running before overheating.
DavidI think the nano will show rpm when cranking on the TD5 instruments screen, it should I think, if it doesn't it may be the CPS.

I'd try firing the injectors manually with the nanocom, can't remember which screen it is on, but you can hear them click if they are working, if you've got ok hearing...

[johnp38]

When I got a replacement used head for mine, that had been cleaned and lightly refaced, it came with it's original set of injectors sitting in it, I assumed they would have replaced the o-rings and they hadn't.

Lots of turning over and running the air bleed cycles and also cranking with foot flat to floor and not starting.

Eventually it locked a few times when I tried to kick it over for the umpteenth squillionth (and second battery) time and I think I had filled it with diesel , then after I left it alone for about 20 minutes to let the assumed excess diesel get past the rings and cranked it over again it started with a spluttery idle and thick white smoke then stalled.

I think you need to assume the overheating would not have been kind to any rubber in the head and change the injector o-rings to eliminate that as a problem. Not hard to do I got it right the first time no special tools just a long 6mm allen key and youtube vid.

I hear you that it is not making an effort to fire but neither did mine but I was cranking it over till 1 battery went flat and the second nearly as well and I thought the starter would burn out too before it finally spluttered into half life.

So lots of sentences to say change the o-rings. Process of elimination.

[Tins]

Could it be the crank sensor? The thing is this vehicle was running before overheating.
David

How hot is the thing alleged to have got? Personally, I think the answer to that question would have to be "bloody" before a TD5 would refuse to even give a kick. I'm wondering if the overheat and the non start are actually unrelated and just coincidental. Or, in the course of trying to sort things the seller has disturbed something.

Back at post #3 I said

You've bought a non runner, so it's best not to assume that what you have been told is correct and just start at basics, otherwise you get lost down rabbit holes.



What I meant was don't assume anything. You can wind up with tunnel vision focussing on the "big thing" and overlook what the issue actually is. The seller may have not mentioned something, as he was no doubt frustrated as well.

In post #7 you said the Nano reported Injectors 2,3,5 open circuit (current). In #15 you said Nanocom says no faults in ecu. Does that mean you cleared the faults after cleaning the red plug etc and the fault hasn't returned? Or is the injector fault still recorded?

You also said that the seller replaced the FPR. At the beginning my immediate thought was CPS. To me that is the most likely cause of a TD5 refusing to even kick, and its proximity to the FPR could easily mean that the wiring to the CPS could have been disturbed. So, I'll ask again, is the MIL lit? That's the "check engine light".

PS. Is this an early car? A 10P? If so I believe I may have a spare CPS and ECU you could try for elimination purposes if all else fails.... I'm not all that far from you. Could take me a minute to find them[bigsad]

Al I can add is good luck.

[DeeJay]

[QUOTE=Tins;3184435]How hot is the thing alleged to have got? Personally, I think the answer to that question would have to be "bloody" before a TD5 would refuse to even give a kick. I'm wondering if the overheat and the non start are actually unrelated and just coincidental. Or, in the course of trying to sort things the seller has disturbed something.

Back at post #3 I said


What I meant was don't assume anything. You can wind up with tunnel vision focussing on the "big thing" and overlook what the issue actually is. The seller may have not mentioned something, as he was no doubt frustrated as well.

In post #7 you said the Nano reported Injectors 2,3,5 open circuit (current). In #15 you said Nanocom says no faults in ecu. Does that mean you cleared the faults after cleaning the red plug etc and the fault hasn't returned? Or is the injector fault still recorded?

You also said that the seller replaced the FPR. At the beginning my immediate thought was CPS. To me that is the most likely cause of a TD5 refusing to even kick, and its proximity to the FPR could easily mean that the wiring to the CPS could have been disturbed. So, I'll ask again, is the MIL lit? That's the "check engine light".

PS. Is this an early car? A 10P? If so I believe I may have a spare CPS and ECU you could try for elimination purposes if all else fails.... I'm not all that far from you. Could take me a minute to find them[bigsad]

Al I can add is good luck.
Tins,
Thanks for the offer, yes, its a 10p - 2000 model. I did clear the faults after cleaning all the oil up, I assume cranking only would cause them to reappear, but they haven't. The seller has been in the engine bay as the lifting lug has gone walkabout, but the CPS wiring seems undisturbed. I understand the issue finding the parts, when my garage was at its worst, it took 2 hours to find my Tirfor winch. A friend has offered the loan of an upmarket diagnostic, the Nanocom is not easy to work with, but I would love to borrow those 2 things- I have spare injector copper rings & O rings, so will try them first.
Cheers, David

[Tins]

[QUOTE=Tins;3184435]How hot is the thing alleged to have got? Personally, I think the answer to that question would have to be "bloody" before a TD5 would refuse to even give a kick. I'm wondering if the overheat and the non start are actually unrelated and just coincidental. Or, in the course of trying to sort things the seller has disturbed something.

Back at post #3 I said


What I meant was don't assume anything. You can wind up with tunnel vision focussing on the "big thing" and overlook what the issue actually is. The seller may have not mentioned something, as he was no doubt frustrated as well.

In post #7 you said the Nano reported Injectors 2,3,5 open circuit (current). In #15 you said Nanocom says no faults in ecu. Does that mean you cleared the faults after cleaning the red plug etc and the fault hasn't returned? Or is the injector fault still recorded?

You also said that the seller replaced the FPR. At the beginning my immediate thought was CPS. To me that is the most likely cause of a TD5 refusing to even kick, and its proximity to the FPR could easily mean that the wiring to the CPS could have been disturbed. So, I'll ask again, is the MIL lit? That's the "check engine light".

PS. Is this an early car? A 10P? If so I believe I may have a spare CPS and ECU you could try for elimination purposes if all else fails.... I'm not all that far from you. Could take me a minute to find them[bigsad]

Al I can add is good luck.
Tins,
Thanks for the offer, yes, its a 10p - 2000 model. I did clear the faults after cleaning all the oil up, I assume cranking only would cause them to reappear, but they haven't. The seller has been in the engine bay as the lifting lug has gone walkabout, but the CPS wiring seems undisturbed. I understand the issue finding the parts, when my garage was at its worst, it took 2 hours to find my Tirfor winch. A friend has offered the loan of an upmarket diagnostic, the Nanocom is not easy to work with, but I would love to borrow those 2 things- I have spare injector copper rings & O rings, so will try them first.
Cheers, David

No probs. Shoot me a PM and I'll look them out. Yeah, Nanocom isn't the most user friendly interface, but it's so powerfull I put up with that.

Garage? What's a garage?