LPG coversion for Discovery puzzle

[ex8rarsig]

I seem to have embarked on a mission which is raising more questions than providing answers. I am researching an LPG conversion for my 99 series 2 V8 Discovery and am getting conflicting advice from LPG installers (surprise surprise). Story number 1 is that you could install a standard LPG conversion in a Disco at a cost around $2800 but this may cause problems with backfires which can cost thousands of dollars to replace damaged parts ( one guy said that tyhe backfire were caused by poor maintenance and poor spark and that if you replace the platinum plugs with normal plugs without an inbuilt resistor this will not happen but the NKG website tells me that modern engines need plugs with an inbuilt resistor to avoid damage to ECU and radio interference etc) Story number 2 is that if I spend an extra $1200 on a "multi point" system this will prevent backfires but this then makes the conversion a $4000 job. Story number 3 Camelgas here in Newcastle has been around a long time and they say they will not fit gas to Discos at all as they have had too many problems. I would obviously like to have the fuel cost savings of LPG but all of this negative problem problem problem has made me just about give up and just pay the price for LPG but before I finally bury the project - Has anyone any experience with an LPG conversion to this engine? Which way was it done? Any problems arising? Any helpful comments appreciated.

[Bush65]

I presume from what you are saying that you want to run duel fuel.

With duel fuel, the fuel injection system will need the air flow sensor. This is the part that is damaged when a backfire occurs.

Sorry don't know much more about running duel fuel with injected engines.

[maggsie]

I have just bought an 01 V8 Disco and enquired about putting it on gas at my local installer, he said that series2 could not be put on LPG as the ECU has too many problems.

[langy]

Whilst I haven't got the whole answer to the Thor & LPG puzzle, I have owned a LPG vehicle before, and can answer some of your questions. All of the info appears to be correct -firstly LPG engines using a traditional diaphram LPG system do backfire easily if the ignition isn't up to scratch. On a mid 90's Australian vehicles, this wasn't too much of a problem, as the sensors were reasonably hardy. At the end of the 90's, injection systems turned to Mass airflow sensors and other improvements and they are somewhat fragile. Reports in UK LR magazines do indicate that D2 v8 of that age tend to blow the airbox and airflow sensor if they are poorly maintained. Since they are in the UK, the price isn't too much of a problem to them. Here is a different matter. The multipoint gas injection system has been suggested in UK magazines as the proper way to do modern v8's, and it has an additional ECU/injector emulator system. Go look at a new Ford factory done LPG vehicle for an example. If you visit the various UK magazines websites, they may have reference to a LPG multipoint install on a v8 - I know I've read the article in the last 12 months. Considering the current situation, and the value of a 99 Disco, $4k isn't too bad.

[Pedro_The_Swift]

Try searching this forum,,

at last count it was concluded as not possible on a D2,,,

[loanrangie]

It certainly is possible, a guy in the LROCV has recently had his D2 converted to lpg so the knockers are obviously people who know very little about landrovers.LPG-1 did the conversion for $3950 with twin under rear lpg tanks and a 40ltr pocket tank in the rear 1/4 panel - give them a call. They also give you a 2 year 60k warranty.

[dobbo]

I have seen a few D2's driving around coverted to duel fuel so it must be possible you just have to spent the money to get it done correctly the first time.

[Milton477]

My P38 is fitted with an OMVL Dream Sequential Injection. 8 solenoids provide gas directly to the engine via nozzles situated close to the petrol injectors. The gas ECU gets its signals from the P38's own brain & then fires the solenoids accordingly. The solenoid opening times are modified slightly by the gas ECU but the P38's ECU is none the wiser. The gas ECU also has a built in emulator which convinces the P38 brain that the petrol injectors are working correctly. The gas system does not have it's own lamda sensor as the P38 ECU is still doing all of the control. I have a program which runs on a laptop that I use to setup the gas system.

Before I fitted the Sequential Injection, I had a Bedini single point system. I have the dents from backfires or should they be frontfires? in the underside of my bonnet where the airbox exploded. Back/front fires normally occurred when the gas/air mixture was too lean. Just as you are about to run out of gas, you boot the throttle, feel the hesitation & then get the bang. Helps to leave hose clips loose so that the air inlet system just falls to bits. Roads in the UK are tarred so no problem with vibration/ bumps etc. The mixer in the single point system also strangled the air inlet to the plenum chamber from 50mm down to 38mm so I do not believe that the vehicle ran properly on petrol either. The Bedini system used a separate lamda sensor to control the mixture. While the vehicle on gas was tuned, the Petrol ECU would adjust itself into oblivion so that when I had to run on petrol, the mixture was so rich that 100l would last 160km & all in my wake would be in petrol heaven unable to breathe.

The system I have now installed has none of the single point injection problems & has not/cannot backfired in 3 years. When the gas runs out, the system swaps automatically to petrol. From cold, my vehicle runs on petrol until the rad water is up to 45deg (adjustable from laptop) & then swaps seamlessly to gas. I honestly cannot feel any difference in power between the fuels but the vehicle feels smoother on gas. I also have no cats to rob you of additional horsepower. On a recent trip to Germany I had no trouble cruising at 110mph on gas on the autobahns. I run standard spark plugs as I cannot feel the difference with colder/hotter/gapped plugs. I change my plugs every 80000km.

So, my advice is as follows: Forget single point systems, go sequential; Fit good quality sparkplug leads eg Magnecor; Advance the timing by way of ECU chips or the old fashioned way; make sure that your camshaft is ok.

See http://rpiv8.com (http://rpiv8.com/)
http://www.centralgaragecarcroft.co.uk/omvl.htm
http://www.lpg4x4s.co.uk/Pages/lpg/gassystems.php
for a wealth of information about gas & V8's

Enjoy the massive savings & stick it to the green party.
Rory

[Pedro_The_Swift]

It certainly is possible, -1 did the conversion for $3950


thats a lot of fuel,,, or kays,,

a quick calc and you have to do 175000 kays before your ahead,,,

[DirtyDawg]

Jesus after reading all that, the effort required to save a few bucks (over the long term) and the complications ensued I would keep what i got or buy a diesel. Advance this, trick that seems way to hard for a novice. If you do damage engine Items add that replacement cost to the installation charge and let see how much money is saved in the long term. IMO

[crossy]

IMO - It's timing issues that cause backfires - nothing else (except lean mixes). If you can get the ecu timing mapped for LPG you wont have a problem. I'm running coilpack (distributerless) ignition on a Series 3 holden - 202 - Since fitting this I have not had a sinle backfire. When running the dizzy it was common. Very bloody common.

Simon

[ex8rarsig]

Thanks for the very helpful info everyone. These are my calculations and why I am seriously considering the $4000 investment.
Kms travelled a year 40,000
LPG useage approx 16.7 litres per 100kms
LPG litres used per year 6680
LPG useage approx 20 litres per 100ks
LPG litres used per year 8016
Annual LPG cost @ approx $1.40 per litre $9352
Annual LPG cost at approx $0.60per litre $4810
Savings per km $0.114
Cost of conversion $4000
Cost back in approx 35,000ks or less than a years running
BUT I don't want to have the hassles if it is a pain in the **** or starts breaking other things that cost more money. I am going to contact some of the dealers you have variously mentioned but Iam more optimistic now than before. Thanks once again.

[ex8rarsig]

Sorry guys stuffed that up, obviously the higher cost and lower consumption figures refer to ULP not LPG but I am sure you get the message

[tempestv8]

I drive a '99 Discovery V8 and have been following the LPG conversion story for the last 6 years now.

Back in 1999 when I first bought my Rover, the only LPG systems available in Australia were the carburettor style gas diffuser ring conversions. And the foremost leaders of these installations for Land Rover V8s, I consider to be LPGAS-1 in Lilydale.

They had no end of problems with exploding air cleaner boxes due to backfiring through the inlet manifolds.

So I did not bother to get my engine converted - I figured it's just not worth the costly downtime and repairs, which would immediately reset the savings that LPG offers.

Recently the every obscene price of petrol has caused me to do some more research. It seems that the old style gas diffuser rings are still hard at work, exploding air intake boxes and so these systems still have to be avoided like the plague.

HOWEVER, Australian LPG installers have finally caught up with the folks over the otherside of the pond - we now have Vapour Sequential Injection systems available here now! :banana:

These are truly a step forward in the right direction.

VSI does not inject liquid gas directly into the combustion chamber, but it does deposit the right charge of fuel as close as possible to the inlet valves of the manifold, so pretty much in the same vicinity of your existing petrol injectors.

There are a number of systems that are available in Melbourne that I can find.

The better of the two systems seems to be Impco's BRC vapour sequential injection.

There is another competing system from Sprint Gas, which uses the OMVL Dream system.

I think both are comparable, but the Impco kit is about $500 dearer. Impco is an American LPG company that acquired BRC, which is an Italian company. OMVL is Italian too, but a smaller operation. I believe that BRC have twice the number of employees as OMVL (350+ vs 190+ respectively)

Both systems should work just fine.

If you want to convert your Thor V8 in the Disco II to LPG, you can contact either Ezygas (they do the OMVL/Sprint Gas system) or Deacon Automotive (they do the Impco/BRC Gas system).

These systems won't have the backfiring problems that the old systems have suffered.

[tempestv8]

I guess that my research thus far is validating everything that Rory said.

Check out this website for some cool LPG installations on Land Rovers. Unfortunately, the Pommies are one step ahead of the Aussies in the LPG conversion business - they have been for a while, naturally because of the higher cost of petrol in the UK

http://www.gascarco.com/gallery/album16

Check out the sexy injector inlet add-on to the intake manifold. Now that will give very very accurate gas metering into each cylinder.

And having said all that, there is a news flash that is suggesting that petrol prices are coming down:

http://news.ninemsn.com.au/article.aspx?id=96716

[LandyAndy]

Hi Guys
Was chatting to my Bro the other nite,those OMVL kits are the ducks nuts but NOT AVAILABLE TO ALL CONVERTERS,if the converters alligance is with another company they cant buy them so dont sell or recommend them.
SPRINT GAS are the distributors(if I remember correctly).
Apparently the BA falcons go really well on the system,my bro had a run against a non turbo Xr6 running this LPG setup, in his new XR6 Turbo and couldnt shake it.
Andrew

[walker]

Hey that really good to hear since I have the Disco booked in with Ezygas to get the OMVL system installed.:D :D

[p38arover]

I recall the problem with the Thor engine (post 99 P38A and D2) is the Bosch engine management system that shuts off fuel and ignition in some situations. If you use a simple mixer, the LPG is still being fed to the engine. When the ignition returns, Ka-Boom.

Ron

[DRanged]

I run a 5.4lt BA ford ute as my work truck and looked into lpg. $4990.00 for the multipoint conversion s**t.
After realising that it would take longer than the lease to pay off I scrapped that idea. The other problem is, and I will put money on it ,is that with the government grant the demand on lpg will become greater, hence pushing the price up. "supply & demand" . You wait and see once the lpg component suppliers catch up - Jan, Feb next year the price will rise!!!!!!!

If you owned the lpg supply and another 800 thousand cars wanted your gas you'd put the price, after all they just forked out 3-5k for a conversion???????.

Regards Justin

[DEFENDERZOOK]

a price rise is inevitable....but i dont think it will happen that soon.....
there has to be a bit of positive feedback from those that will convert at johnnys expense.......
this will take a bit of time before the savings start then they will start telling their mates to change over.....

by the time this happens it will probably be 2008......
so...if you convert now....you will benefit for a while......considering most of the conversion will be free......

and with the cost of fuel today......i would say you would have the expense covered in about a fortnight......

[DRanged]

Mate you dont have to tell anyone about converting. I rang the local LPG installer and he told me to ring back in feb - march 07!!!!!!!. He was saying that the component suppliers are not taking phone calls anymore, the installers can only order the kits required by fax. Also the price of conversions has suddenly risen, mmmmm funny that, considering the government grant has now given them so much business. LPG installers in Nth QLD currently have a 8-12 mth waiting list and people have been coming down to Nrth NSW for installations. LPG will rise in price way before 2008, demand will dictate it.
At the moment in Tweed heads area, fuel is 1.29p/l and LPG is 0.69p/l, its bordering on not being economical considering the extra consumption of LPG compared to fuel for the same km travelled and the cost of the conversion factered in. Johnny is only giving $2k for a rebate, you wont find a conversion for a modern car for under $3500 for a descent kit.

Regards Justin

[victa125]

whats about cng in the d oil burners

[RonMcGr]

I'll pass on some information I picked up at the last Australian Caravan Club muster.

I was talking to a guy who had a later model 5.8i F100, running duel fuel with the old gas carby system, feeding into the EFI air intake.

I asked him about backfire and he said, "It hasn't backfired in years". Apparently another F100 owner told him to change the plug leads. Buy new ones of all different sizes and do NOT let them sit together.

Now I'm not an autolec, so I do not know if this is true, the theory was all the plug leads lined up together will cause backfire from electrical impulse. Have the plug leads all over the place so they do not come in contact with each other, the problem goes away.

Maybe some one who has the old LPG and backfiring problem could try it and lets us know?

Ron

[PhilipA]

If you look at a Range Rover Classic manual, it has diagrams of how the plug leads should be run.
Parallel is OK. Crossing the leads is not OK. The manual shows which leads to cross where unavoidable so that the induced spark if any happens at a time that will not hurt.
I wonder how many people ever look at these things and how many LPG cars with backfire problems have the leads routed correctly.
Regards Philip A

[landyfromanuthaland]

I had a VN commodore on gas, whenit backfired it fairly launched the airbox lid, we had to fit springs to the lid so when it did backfire we didnt lose the clips or damage the lid, with modern systems its difficult to satisfy both lpg and petrol requirements with tuning.
Gas Research were turning out some intersting systems, dont like Impco stuff much, Victoria do the cheapest conversions around but I think u get what u pay for.

[Rayngie]

I took my D2 V8 to the 'Gas man' in Alexandria yesterday after being recomended by Graeme Cooper, he say's a Seqential Injection sysyem is very simple for a D2 and will cause no drames ( to be fair, he would say that ), but confirmed the 'older' style and cheaper system would be a nightmare to maintain if you don't keep on top of it, approx 4k to have scuba tanks in the rear for seqential and can have it done next week..i'm getting a quote from him today with a bit more info so will report back,

Ray

[mrapocalypse]

Blah Blah blah...... Just get the sequerntial injection system and live happily ever after.

It's great. I have been running one for 30k on an 02 D2 and it has paid for itself already. You will slash 40% off your fuel bill, you wont know it's on there and you get 300km extra range as well. The mileage is only about 10% worse...

Don't do the old style, it's crap, high maintenace and will make your legendary machine a piece of junk and you will burn more gas and take longer to break even.

If you are in Brisbane, gve me a call, in Sydney. Listen to Greame cooper, HE KNOWS OK!

Hardest thing is getting the mainfold tank, but I got mine off ebay for 800, and had it shipped, and restamped for ten years for a total of $300.

I garuantee you will never look back.

[sam_d]

Don't forget the Government cashback thing of $2000 - your LPG conversion will pay off in even less time :)


Thanks for the very helpful info everyone. These are my calculations and why I am seriously considering the $4000 investment.
Kms travelled a year 40,000
LPG useage approx 16.7 litres per 100kms
LPG litres used per year 6680
LPG useage approx 20 litres per 100ks
LPG litres used per year 8016
Annual LPG cost @ approx $1.40 per litre $9352
Annual LPG cost at approx $0.60per litre $4810
Savings per km $0.114
Cost of conversion $4000
Cost back in approx 35,000ks or less than a years running
BUT I don't want to have the hassles if it is a pain in the **** or starts breaking other things that cost more money. I am going to contact some of the dealers you have variously mentioned but Iam more optimistic now than before. Thanks once again.

[PAT303]

I agree,I got my D1 done 11 months ago.New plugs and leads(low resistance) and the boss has racked up 44k's of trouble free driving.It has paid itself off already. Pat

[DeeJay]

Geez I'm dumb.
I read all these posts and then realised most were in 2006...:twisted:
Anyway, sequential has proven to be excellent in d2's and Deacon even claim a slight improvement in economy. And why not? its a higher octane rating.

[p38arover]

I've got the older venturi system I removed from my P38A for sale.

It would suit a GEMS P38A or a D1

Ron

[tempestv8]

I've had my vapour sequential gas injection system fitted to my Disco II V8 now for nearly a year.

So far, it's been quite economical motoring. I had a problem with the fuel trims earlier on and was getting around 25 litres per 100 kms around town with standard tyres (although I have some heavy accessories on the vehicle) but now the economy is much improved after some tweaking.

Even at 25 litres per 100kms, assuming 50 cents a litre for LPG, it's still cheap motoring, as it will cost $12.50 every 100 kms to drive the Rover V8 around. In a TD5, at around 12 litres per 100kms in town driving, that equates to $15 per 100 kms assuming diesel is priced at $1.25 a litre.

I think my economy is now closer to 21 litres per 100kms after the tuneup.

I've had no backfires and the engine ECU works beautifully together with the OMVL Dream XXI system that I have (from SprintGas Australia).

Very happy with the system as it's far better than the venturi system (old style carby) that I once had fitted to my Ford EA Falcon.

The only big negatives about LPG are:

1. Loss of internal space if fitting an internal tank
2. Got to refuel every 280 - 300 kms - which can be a chore if you drive a lot.

Other than that, it works really really well. There's similar power to petrol and driveability is no different. I've found that I can switch to petrol with full accelerator depressed at 3800 rpm without any hiccup. It's a very transparent system - switching between fuels doesn't cause any problems and the system seems quite well developed - I do believe this is 4th generation LPG injection technology, so it's quite mature.

The decision to go with LPG is now a matter of finding the best installer who can do the neatest job and takes the most care in doing it.

Lawrance Lee
'99 DII V8 auto
Melbourne, VIC

[Pedro_The_Swift]

Thanks Lawrance:D

its always nice to here a good accessory story.

might just sway me----:eek: