Airbag suspension and off-road driving

[POD]

I posted about this in the general technical section but did not get any response that helped answer my question, so asking again in the Defender area as it probably more specifically relates to the Defender. I'm contemplating converting the rear of the 130 to airbags and am wondering how suited they are to the kind of 4wd use that requires continual axle articulation. I'm confident that airbags are great for outback touring and load carrying but that is only one part of the use of my vehicle and it needs to be capable and reliable on the often challenging high-country tracks as well. Wondering what others have found with air suspension in that sort of use. Also wondering about the durability of the bags; I had a friend had an airbag failure in a patrol somewhere up Cape York, wondering if this is a regular occurrence?
I'm talking about stand-alone airbags, not the ones that go inside coil springs.

[rick130]

The blokes that have fitted air bags don't post here anymore :(

Tony has a great thread on his 120 here Rangier's ISUZU 4BD1T 120" (https://www.aulro.com/afvb/members-rides/105345-rangiers-isuzu-4bd1t-120-a.html)
I haven't seen Tony on here for a number of years.

Ben doesn't have his 110 anymore, and unfortunately it looks like a lot of photos were on Photobucket so have disappeared into the ether, but there are drawings and part numbers still on this thread. ISUZU County Tourer (https://www.aulro.com/afvb/members-rides/99871-isuzu-county-tourer.html)
Ben hasn't posted here for years either.

[Arapiles]

And it turns out GrizzlynBear managed to wreck an airbag through too much articulation.

[POD]

Well that is very interesting. I really like the idea of airbags for levelling and load carrying but if they are likely to build in a point of unreliability I think I'll just get new coils.

[RANDLOVER]

The vehicles that have this rear only airbag setup are Disco 2's and some Prado's. I don't know much about Prado's but the D2's don't seem to get as many complaints about airbags IIRC, much more about 3 Amigo's, XYZ Gearbox Switch, ECU Loom Oil, etc. Also, I'm not sure if the OP's 130 has Traction Control, in which case not having all four wheels on the ground is not as much of a problem as the TC will simulate locked diff's front and rear, and if it has a centre diff lock even better. I think airbags might pro'ly not have as much droop versus being able to compress, but if one really wants the best of that, even a coiler will need disconnecting sway bars and dislocation cones.

I also think it might be easier to change an airbag next to the road than a coil, or even temporarily fix it with sealant, or directly inflate it with a compressor if the onboard one fails, as well as being a much lighter spare to carry.

On my D2 with the rear suspension raised I could fit my head between the tyre and the wheel arch and look around in the wheel well! I liked the air suspension so much I bought a D3 with airbags all round. I had the D2 airbags replaced when I bought it as they were leaking and eventually the compressor did go, but that wasn't a showstopper I just pulled the fuse IIRC until my mechanic could do the job.

[POD]

Thanks for the comments Randlover. My 130 does not have traction control but it does have diff locks front and rear. I've never had a coil spring break so never carry a spare one, I'd be quite ok with carrying a spare air-spring bladder and with fitting one in the bush.
I had a soft-dash Range Rover Classic to which I re-installed original air suspension after a coil conversion by a previous owner. Loved the result, but I would never take that car bush- too many early-generation electronic gadgets that would not have survived a river crossing, let alone airbag worries.
The one reply I got to this same enquiry in the tech section was a referral to 'grizzlynbear' videos, and then in this thread the info that they had a failure. My friend with his patrol had a failure on Cape York. That's two from two of people I'm aware of who use these things in remote travel- yes a very small sample but I don't seem to be able to find a bigger one- so I think that's enough for me.

[towe0609]

Here's is the specific video content in case you haven't found it Peter

It ended with a bang! Cape York (Ep230) - YouTube (https://youtu.be/xhGwOxKjfIU't=479)

[POD]

Thanks Tim, not my cup of tea so happy not to have to watch all their stuff to find that. 8:27 for anyone else looking for it.
That track would be pretty routine high-country terrain, however their failure was caused by long-travel shocks fitted without thought to the effect on the airbags, I guess if you want that extra travel with coils you fit dislocation cones but I don't know of any equivalent with air suspension. Less of a problem than I thought though, and not really a strike against air suspension.

[Tins]

See if you can have a yarn with W&KO about his setup. On the road atm o a little difficult to reach.

[MLD]

I run 4 corner Air bag man air suspension. Fitted the kit in early 2021 and since then done several VHC trips and a Simpson crossing with a stint in the Flinders Rangers driving the tracks to watering holes etc. My kit is not off the shelf. I run extended shocks and have modified the front turret height to suit the longer shock and in the rear i have a hybrid bellow with 20" extension and run 12" shocks.

As for VHC type touring or driving that type of track in the GrizzlynBear video, provided the set up is all balanced you should not have a problem. By balanced i mean, shock lengths are ideal to bellow travel and the bump stops are your limiting factor on compression.

Issues that i've encountered since fitting the kit:

1) broke the piston on the front. From the short section of video in the GrizzlynBear failure, mine was the same. I did mine **** around at home. i aired up the rear to full extension but that put the weight on the front and it broke the plastic bit that holds it to the axle mount. I see how the GrizzlynBear failure could happen in the bush and i'm conscious of it. Having sufficient height in the front when in cross axle terrain will help. It gives the bellow a fighting chance for the PSI to exponentially increase to increase the rate before the bellow bottoms out. See pics

2) i cracked the rear diff coil mount. The bellow has a larger diam base compared to the coil and with the diff roll from the pinion angle, there is alot more leverage on the diff mount. I found the crack on a rest day before the Simpson crossing. only found it because i was dedicated enough to put a torch on every nut, bolt and suspension part as a precaution. Welded it in Birdsville as a temp fix. i replaced the cracked mounts with thicker and larger mounts that i had welded on.

3) i broke both front shock mounts at the bottom. One went on Davies plain over Xmas. That was a palaver to limp back to Omeo to weld a fix job to get me home. the other in Bunnings car park. Air bag man revised the bracket design from the first set with extra bracing. On my set up the shock bottoms out before the extended bump stops have enough resistance to be the primary limiting factor. I run GL + 1" bump stops + the spacer that Air Bag man offer in the kit. I'm +2" extended. I run 3 way adjustable shocks so there is about 1" at the base of the shock for the rebound adjustment mechanism. That reduced the closed length by that amount. Short of designing (which i will do) a shock mount that is set lower at the bottom to account for the shorter closed length, it will be an ongoing problem. FWIW the 130 handles no different without shocks on the front with air bellows. not sure if that is good or bad. The Bunnings breakage was 2 hrs Hwy drive from home where i had a spare.

The rear has been trouble free save for the mount crack. if you are just interested in load carrying and flexibility of height adjustability between loaded and empty, fit rear bellows and run coil fronts. A rear sway bar will be beneficial. On balance, air suspension is not worth the money, hassle and stress. I never had a problem with coils and never gave thought to failures of coils in the bush. With air, i'm very conscious of it and it occupies much of my mental load when in remote areas.

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[rrturboD]

I had a chat to Airbag Man at Cooma. We decided that he did not really have a suitable product to replace my Superior Suspension rear arms and XEng inner springs, with Long travel shocks. If I was just running bit longer travel than standard, matching shocks/bump stops and airbags was possible, but not the extreme travel possible with the XEng Springs.

[POD]

I run 4 corner Air bag man air suspension. Fitted the kit in early 2021 and since then done several VHC trips and a Simpson crossing with a stint in the Flinders Rangers driving the tracks to watering holes etc. My kit is not off the shelf. I run extended shocks and have modified the front turret height to suit the longer shock and in the rear i have a hybrid bellow with 20" extension and run 12" shocks.

As for VHC type touring or driving that type of track in the GrizzlynBear video, provided the set up is all balanced you should not have a problem. By balanced i mean, shock lengths are ideal to bellow travel and the bump stops are your limiting factor on compression.

Issues that i've encountered since fitting the kit:

1) broke the piston on the front. From the short section of video in the GrizzlynBear failure, mine was the same. I did mine **** around at home. i aired up the rear to full extension but that put the weight on the front and it broke the plastic bit that holds it to the axle mount. I see how the GrizzlynBear failure could happen in the bush and i'm conscious of it. Having sufficient height in the front when in cross axle terrain will help. It gives the bellow a fighting chance for the PSI to exponentially increase to increase the rate before the bellow bottoms out. See pics

2) i cracked the rear diff coil mount. The bellow has a larger diam base compared to the coil and with the diff roll from the pinion angle, there is alot more leverage on the diff mount. I found the crack on a rest day before the Simpson crossing. only found it because i was dedicated enough to put a torch on every nut, bolt and suspension part as a precaution. Welded it in Birdsville as a temp fix. i replaced the cracked mounts with thicker and larger mounts that i had welded on.

3) i broke both front shock mounts at the bottom. One went on Davies plain over Xmas. That was a palaver to limp back to Omeo to weld a fix job to get me home. the other in Bunnings car park. Air bag man revised the bracket design from the first set with extra bracing. On my set up the shock bottoms out before the extended bump stops have enough resistance to be the primary limiting factor. I run GL + 1" bump stops + the spacer that Air Bag man offer in the kit. I'm +2" extended. I run 3 way adjustable shocks so there is about 1" at the base of the shock for the rebound adjustment mechanism. That reduced the closed length by that amount. Short of designing (which i will do) a shock mount that is set lower at the bottom to account for the shorter closed length, it will be an ongoing problem. FWIW the 130 handles no different without shocks on the front with air bellows. not sure if that is good or bad. The Bunnings breakage was 2 hrs Hwy drive from home where i had a spare.

The rear has been trouble free save for the mount crack. if you are just interested in load carrying and flexibility of height adjustability between loaded and empty, fit rear bellows and run coil fronts. A rear sway bar will be beneficial. On balance, air suspension is not worth the money, hassle and stress. I never had a problem with coils and never gave thought to failures of coils in the bush. With air, i'm very conscious of it and it occupies much of my mental load when in remote areas.

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Thanks for taking the time to post that very informative and balanced summary.

[shack]

Thanks for taking the time to post that very informative and balanced summary.I second that!

[karlz]

Speaking first hand from my experiences.

I have had air suspension in my P38 RR and 2 x disco 4's and off road (difficult) had no issues.
I had a leak in a hose with my P38, and patched it with an air line joiner, very easy fix.
The P38 also had compressor issues, so I recon it with new seals. No issue since.
With extreme articulation (i.e. when changing a wheel on a hoist) the airbag popped off.

When travelling thru the Congo many years ago, my friend who I travelled with snapped 2 coils in his 110.
He carried 2 spares so we were able to continue.

Personally, I think the benefits or air outweigh coils.

[scarry]

"The rear has been trouble free save for the mount crack. if you are just interested in load carrying and flexibility of height adjustability between loaded and empty, fit rear bellows and run coil fronts. A rear sway bar will be beneficial. On balance, air suspension is not worth the money, hassle and stress. I never had a problem with coils and never gave thought to failures of coils in the bush. With air, i'm very conscious of it and it occupies much of my mental load when in remote areas."

Exactly.

After 10yrs with the D4,we had more EAS issues than anything else.Maybe we were unlucky,there are probably many around that are 10yrs old and had no issues.

Sure it works brilliantly when it is working.

Quite happy we now have a vehicle with no EAS,and i don't miss it.

[rick130]

"The rear has been trouble free save for the mount crack. if you are just interested in load carrying and flexibility of height adjustability between loaded and empty, fit rear bellows and run coil fronts. A rear sway bar will be beneficial. On balance, air suspension is not worth the money, hassle and stress. I never had a problem with coils and never gave thought to failures of coils in the bush. With air, i'm very conscious of it and it occupies much of my mental load when in remote areas."

Exactly.

After 10yrs with the D4,we had more EAS issues than anything else.Maybe we were unlucky,there are probably many around that are 10yrs old and had no issues.

Sure it works brilliantly when it is working.

Quite happy we now have a vehicle with no EAS,and i don't miss it.

Don't say that Paul, I'm seriously looking at converting the rear of the Disco to air bags, especially as I can turn it all back on in the BCU! [biggrin][bigsad]

[shack]

Don't say that Paul, I'm seriously looking at converting the rear of the Disco to air bags, especially as I can turn it all back on in the BCU! [biggrin][bigsad]If you maintain them, they really aren't a Problem.

I've never had issues anyway.

Even the D3 has been good, it's only done 520 000km though, whether it will play up when it gets a few km on it... Guess I'll have to wait and see..

[MLD]

For those that are commenting on factory air set up, that's not a fair comparison to POD buying and fitting an aftermarket kit to his defender. LR spends alot of money dialling in the EAS that the likes of Air Bag Man cannot. The aftermarket kits are a compromise and little things like my shock choice doesn't neatly work with the ABM kit. If i ran non adjustable shocks, it wouldn't be an issue. LR sends the car to market with that sort of stuff dialled in.

[shack]

For those that are commenting on factory air set up, that's not a fair comparison to POD buying and fitting an aftermarket kit to his defender. LR spends alot of money dialling in the EAS that the likes of Air Bag Man cannot. The aftermarket kits are a compromise and little things like my shock choice doesn't neatly work with the ABM kit. If i ran non adjustable shocks, it wouldn't be an issue. LR sends the car to market with that sort of stuff dialled in.Fair call... We wandered off a bit.

[scarry]

Don't say that Paul, I'm seriously looking at converting the rear of the Disco to air bags, especially as I can turn it all back on in the BCU! [biggrin][bigsad]

Simpler system than on the D4,less to go wrong,so you will be fine[bigsmile1]
Never had a problem with the rear air suspension in any of the 7 seater D2's we owned.

[DazzaTD5]

I posted about this in the general technical section but did not get any response that helped answer my question, so asking again in the Defender area as it probably more specifically relates to the Defender. I'm contemplating converting the rear of the 130 to airbags and am wondering how suited they are to the kind of 4wd use that requires continual axle articulation. I'm confident that airbags are great for outback touring and load carrying but that is only one part of the use of my vehicle and it needs to be capable and reliable on the often challenging high-country tracks as well. Wondering what others have found with air suspension in that sort of use. Also wondering about the durability of the bags; I had a friend had an airbag failure in a patrol somewhere up Cape York, wondering if this is a regular occurrence?
I'm talking about stand-alone airbags, not the ones that go inside coil springs.

Have you not thought about coil helper airbags like airbag man ones....
*allows you to air them up when you need it.
*if a bag failed, its not such an issue as you have coils.
*its not re-inventing the wheel for no reason (which is my personal opinion with converting a coil to an air suspension setup).

[POD]

Yes I've used the coil helper airbags on two vehicles, a RRC and the current 130, and am not a fan. They can level a load but I think they prevent the coil from working properly and make for a harsher suspension than the right coils for the job would do. I'm not aware of them being original equipment from any vehicle manufacturer, which I think is telling.

[W&KO]

And it turns out GrizzlynBear managed to wreck an airbag through too much articulation.

It turns out they workshop that fitted the airbags didn’t read the instructions……..hence they had a failure which should never have happened.

[W&KO]

See if you can have a yarn with W&KO about his setup. On the road atm o a little difficult to reach.

Yep Full time on the road…..sure we are touring but ours has had plenty of articulation to test em out over the years…..although not extreme tracks.

I cannot recall the total travel, it’s in my build thread…..if you need more travel than maybe you need to retain coils……for us travel hasn’t been an issue

Our have been through the VHC, probably not the toughest tracks, we did all right…..a rear locker helps a little.

[Arapiles]

It turns out they workshop that fitted the airbags didn’t read the instructions……..hence they had a failure which should never have happened.


Interesting .... do you know in what episode they talk about it? I just did a quick search but couldn't find it.

[W&KO]

Interesting .... do you know in what episode they talk about it? I just did a quick search but couldn't find it.

It’s in their cape York videos…..one good point is I now know you can put a bag back together on the side of a track.

[cal415]

I have ran airbags all round on my 130 for the last 10 years, i think it would be a similar setup to MLDs - airbag man front bags, these are based on a p38 range rover bag i believe, and a truck air spring rear using a combination of 2 different assembly's to get the piston and bag i wanted.

The only issues i have had are failed bellows in the front but never a failure that i couldn't continue to drive with just leaks, i also carry a spare bellow on long trips just in case - i did break a shock mount on the front but that was because it was a crap terrafirma mount, we remade these adjusting the height top and bottom using heavier material and ive not had an issue since. As for the rears, they have never had an issue. As for compressor, control valves/ECU etc i have had a few issues but again nothing that has stopped me - i always carry some PTC fittings with Schrader valves so i can easily pop the lines and inflate the bags manually if i have to.

As for suitability for off road use, my setup works amazingly well off road, comfortable on rough terrain and corrugations, plenty of travel and well balanced in more serious stuff, so much better then any other land rover ive had on coils but its a bit of a trade off with body roll on road - this could easily be sorted with a decent sway bar. With its current setup we have taken the 130 all around the country, cape york, kimberly region, gulf of carpentaria, many trips to Fraser island etc etc all heavily loaded and towing a camper.

[shack]

I have ran airbags all round on my 130 for the last 10 years, i think it would be a similar setup to MLDs - airbag man front bags, these are based on a p38 range rover bag i believe, and a truck air spring rear using a combination of 2 different assembly's to get the piston and bag i wanted.

The only issues i have had are failed bellows in the front but never a failure that i couldn't continue to drive with just leaks, i also carry a spare bellow on long trips just in case - i did break a shock mount on the front but that was because it was a crap terrafirma mount, we remade these adjusting the height top and bottom using heavier material and ive not had an issue since. As for the rears, they have never had an issue. As for compressor, control valves/ECU etc i have had a few issues but again nothing that has stopped me - i always carry some PTC fittings with Schrader valves so i can easily pop the lines and inflate the bags manually if i have to.

As for suitability for off road use, my setup works amazingly well off road, comfortable on rough terrain and corrugations, plenty of travel and well balanced in more serious stuff, so much better then any other land rover ive had on coils but its a bit of a trade off with body roll on road - this could easily be sorted with a decent sway bar. With its current setup we have taken the 130 all around the country, cape york, kimberly region, gulf of carpentaria, many trips to Fraser island etc etc all heavily loaded and towing a camper.Do you have any photos of the setup?

I'd love to see it!

I've got a simple setup in mind for a 110 that's is ECU controlled and should be seemless, but there's a fair bit to fabricate and sort yet.

I run front and rear sway bars, but the bar on the back of one of the 130's could be heavier.

[cal415]

Do you have any photos of the setup?

I'd love to see it!

I've got a simple setup in mind for a 110 that's is ECU controlled and should be seemless, but there's a fair bit to fabricate and sort yet.

I run front and rear sway bars, but the bar on the back of one of the 130's could be heavier.
I think i will have some in an old build post on here? im not sure what i have actually posted, but here is a pic i had handy.
https://scontent-syd2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/326243482_473305664807886_5406528705428466907_n.jp g?_nc_cat=108&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=e3f864&_nc_ohc=lTgwJ3xTHRgAX9uzk7Q&_nc_ht=scontent-syd2-1.xx&oh=00_AfDZx6wJwvt4EtugfUyY9Qpri_Q4AX1zHadZxGm_SC4P IQ&oe=645E3AA8

[shack]

I think i will have some in an old build post on here? im not sure what i have actually posted, but here is a pic i had handy.
https://scontent-syd2-1.xx.fbcdn.net/v/t39.30808-6/326243482_473305664807886_5406528705428466907_n.jp g?_nc_cat=108&ccb=1-7&_nc_sid=e3f864&_nc_ohc=lTgwJ3xTHRgAX9uzk7Q&_nc_ht=scontent-syd2-1.xx&oh=00_AfDZx6wJwvt4EtugfUyY9Qpri_Q4AX1zHadZxGm_SC4P IQ&oe=645E3AA8I didn't realise you had posted a build thread.. So I went looking...

CAL415s Puma 130 (https://www.aulro.com/afvb/members-rides/135463-cal415s-puma-130-a.html)

[cal415]

I didn't realise you had posted a build thread.. So I went looking...

CAL415s Puma 130 (https://www.aulro.com/afvb/members-rides/135463-cal415s-puma-130-a.html)

I dont remember what i have posted in there, its been a while since i have updated it - since then its had a number of other changes including a bit of an engine upgrade....

[MLD]

for those looking at a simple set up for the rear and prepared to run air on board, you could mount a truck trailer height controller. For those that do not know, they are mechanical valve mechanism. If the arm swings up, the inlet valve opens and air is released to the bellow. If the arm swings down, the exhaust opens and air is vented from the bellow. There is a non active range in the middle where the arm can swing and the valves remain closed. so on normal hwy driving where the axle moves with the imperfections, its movement is minor and the height controller remains in the inactive range.

In this set up, fit the height controller on the chassis above the the A frame boss. With a rod between the A frame boss to the height controller. You can buy height controllers that are retarded in their response to input and versions with 2 outputs. The alternative is to put a restrictor valve on the cross axle link (the hose connecting the 2 rear bellows) so it does not instantly cross axle on you. Being in the middle of the axle and as the distance between A frame boss and chassis in a cross axle articulation situation does not vary a huge amount, the valve should remain in the goldielocks range. The same should apply in normal driving with the body roll. the same axle movement is in play, the difference being the body is moving over the axle, not the axle moving under the body. being a height sensitive mechanism, if you load up, the weight compresses the bellow and the valve opens to air up until you hit the preset height. Reverse for unloading. i went down the path of doing this but bit the bullet with the air bag man kit so my theory is untested. They use them on 99.9% of truck trailers in the country and its a common set up to fit the height controller in the middle of the axle like i'm describing. Fundamental difference between a truck trailer and a Defender is the available articulation.

this set up uses lots of air because unlike a ECU and valve block set up, there is no way to recirculate the exhausted air back into the tank or to another bellow. Thus it's best suited to a set up with air on board or a cummins/isuzu that has a compressor running off the engine.

pic of a height controller.

185306

stick your head under a truck trailer and look for yourself. For those thinking to stick one on each corner, big no no. My little brain does not understand the logic, but everything i read its a no no. the common set up is to mount one on each front and a single on the rear as i described. If you want to look into it, RR and Bentley run this set up on their cars in the 60s. if you do it, write up about it, i'd like to know if my research is valid in real life.

[W&KO]

for those looking at a simple set up for the rear and prepared to run air on board, you could mount a truck trailer height controller. For those that do not know, they are mechanical valve mechanism. If the arm swings up, the inlet valve opens and air is released to the bellow. If the arm swings down, the exhaust opens and air is vented from the bellow. There is a non active range in the middle where the arm can swing and the valves remain closed. so on normal hwy driving where the axle moves with the imperfections, its movement is minor and the height controller remains in the inactive range.

In this set up, fit the height controller on the chassis above the the A frame boss. With a rod between the A frame boss to the height controller. You can buy height controllers that are retarded in their response to input and versions with 2 outputs. The alternative is to put a restrictor valve on the cross axle link (the hose connecting the 2 rear bellows) so it does not instantly cross axle on you. Being in the middle of the axle and as the distance between A frame boss and chassis in a cross axle articulation situation does not vary a huge amount, the valve should remain in the goldielocks range. The same should apply in normal driving with the body roll. the same axle movement is in play, the difference being the body is moving over the axle, not the axle moving under the body. being a height sensitive mechanism, if you load up, the weight compresses the bellow and the valve opens to air up until you hit the preset height. Reverse for unloading. i went down the path of doing this but bit the bullet with the air bag man kit so my theory is untested. They use them on 99.9% of truck trailers in the country and its a common set up to fit the height controller in the middle of the axle like i'm describing. Fundamental difference between a truck trailer and a Defender is the available articulation.

this set up uses lots of air because unlike a ECU and valve block set up, there is no way to recirculate the exhausted air back into the tank or to another bellow. Thus it's best suited to a set up with air on board or a cummins/isuzu that has a compressor running off the engine.

pic of a height controller.

185306

stick your head under a truck trailer and look for yourself. For those thinking to stick one on each corner, big no no. My little brain does not understand the logic, but everything i read its a no no. the common set up is to mount one on each front and a single on the rear as i described. If you want to look into it, RR and Bentley run this set up on their cars in the 60s. if you do it, write up about it, i'd like to know if my research is valid in real life.

I had considered semi automating my rears with something like you’ve posted but with only rear bags fitted two paddle switches on the dash is super easy works just fine for us…..we are full time on the road and use the bags to level up every other night.

Although most time I get us level as I can the each bag pressure on the dash sometime I do get out after a driver er whoops we’ve been lopsided for the last 2 hours of driving.

[MLD]

I had considered semi automating my rears with something like you’ve posted but with only rear bags fitted two paddle switches on the dash is super easy works just fine for us…...

i was of the understanding that paddle (full manual) was not compliant. noting that many people run that including Mick O'May (cal415). As someone that runs height controllers and leaves it to the ECU to do the thinking, it seems to be a bit hit and miss to manually air up to level. Ambient air temps, weight, would all have an impact on what height you get for a given PSI. the air bag man ECU has a level to horizon feature that will level off the car. I didn't pay for the feature but it sort of does it in the basic calibration. When you turn off the car it will level off. Where i park my car there is a indent in the ground from the weight of the car so my pass front wheel sits lower than the drivers side wheel. in the morning when i drive off, the drivers front is dropped in height until the 40sec has passed for the ECU to register the heights are out of spec and level the fronts up. its quite noticeable from the drivers seat that the nose is drivers side down by 2" over the pass front.

i run my carpark height at -1", my standard height at +1" in the front and 0" in the rear and my off road heights are 2" front and rear. all with a press of a button. kind of neat (albeit unnecessary in hindsight).

[W&KO]

i was of the understanding that paddle (full manual) was not compliant. noting that many people run that including Mick O'May (cal415). As someone that runs height controllers and leaves it to the ECU to do the thinking, it seems to be a bit hit and miss to manually air up to level. Ambient air temps, weight, would all have an impact on what height you get for a given PSI. the air bag man ECU has a level to horizon feature that will level off the car. I didn't pay for the feature but it sort of does it in the basic calibration. When you turn off the car it will level off. Where i park my car there is a indent in the ground from the weight of the car so my pass front wheel sits lower than the drivers side wheel. in the morning when i drive off, the drivers front is dropped in height until the 40sec has passed for the ECU to register the heights are out of spec and level the fronts up. its quite noticeable from the drivers seat that the nose is drivers side down by 2" over the pass front.

i run my carpark height at -1", my standard height at +1" in the front and 0" in the rear and my off road heights are 2" front and rear. all with a press of a button. kind of neat (albeit unnecessary in hindsight).

Hmm, yes there doesn’t seem to a simple answer to what’s legal……

My QLD engineer was happy with manual paddles for a rear only setup, and air bag man also indicated this although from memory wouldn’t put it in writing My engineer said if I was to bag the front he would require it to be fully automated.

When I did my GVM upgrade I went to a different engineer and he was also happy with the controls for the rear bags.

Weight doesn’t change much day to day for us….although ambient temps does impact the ride height, we’ll more so bag air temp impact height as it differs from the ambient temp at start of the day. As we know the air inside the bag heats up and raises the suspension, some times it’s more than more than I think is possible. If I know the suspension is going to work pretty hard I’ll start with the rear slightly lower than level, generally the rear settles slightly higher than the front.

I used to constantly adjust the pressure fo have the rear sitting perfectly, but now I just set to what I think will do for the day and not bother about it too much.

Re: horizon level….a few years ago I visited the air bag man showroom to discuss with the engineers on what I need to bag the front and automated. I also quizzed them about the front shock mounts as they looked very much like the terrafirma ones… I had a bit of a relationship as they sponsored a couple of events (defender day) I ran. As we had just fitted a pop top conversion I asked could the computer could level the car for sleeping when the Poptop was raised and on a slope I.e. level to the horizon, at the time they said nope, not an option……move forward a couple of years horizon level is now a function. I sometimes wonder if I planted a seed that day.

I’d love to fully bag our and have horizon level as it would be the ducks guys for Poptop owner, or even RTT owners….but I just don’t want to invest the dollars for the air bag man full system and engineering.

Getting as much water into the tank as we could as we were heading the Dirk hartog island…….plus it had the other campers scratching the heads when they walked past. One even stopped and asked why my suspension was so high
https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230509/5110db067d5b7887accc2c1f855cb622.jpg

[MLD]

Re: horizon level….I asked could the computer could level the car for sleeping when the Poptop was raised and on a slope I.e. level to the horizon, at the time they said nope, not an option……move forward a couple of years horizon level is now a function. I sometimes wonder if I planted a seed that day.

ABM uses intelliride controller which is a Firestone product. The horizon level was developed for motor homes, so it would be ideal for what you want of it. its +/- $400 on top of the package price. While flattering to think you were the kernel of an idea, i suspect the US motor home market was the motivator for its development.

happy travels. i wish i could take a few weeks off to get some fresh air in my nostrils.

[W&KO]

ABM uses intelliride controller which is a Firestone product. The horizon level was developed for motor homes, so it would be ideal for what you want of it. its +/- $400 on top of the package price. While flattering to think you were the kernel of an idea, i suspect the US motor home market was the motivator for its development.

happy travels. i wish i could take a few weeks off to get some fresh air in my nostrils.

LOL, maybe me asking the question hurried air bag man up to source and offer the technology. [emoji38]

[POD]

I have just returned from an outback trip, did a LOT of work on the 130 prior to the trip and part of this was to fit the airbagman rear air suspension kit. They don't sell direct in Vic (dunno about other states) and directed me to an agent on my side of Melbourne. I chased these people for about 2 weeks with ignored enquiries and non-returned phone calls, can't imagine a version of reality where I would spend thousands of dollars with someone who can't return a phone call for a serious buyer- can't imagine what their after sales support would be like if stuck in a remote area with a failure. I got the details of a second agent on the other side of Melbourne and bought the kit specified for the rear of the 130 Defender with raised suspension. Had to wait for a batch to be made but they arrived in time for installation prior to setting out.

The kit struck me as being well made but poorly designed. The lower mounts are supposed to be installed by inserting two countersunk screws into the base plate and then holding the assembly upright with the screws dangling through the base plate, whilst bolting the airbag to the plate- so that the screws don't fall into the void- then mounting it to the axle whilst being careful to not let the screws fall into the void. Once installed, these screw heads are never going to be accessible without disassembling the bag from the base plate- which will require access to the screw heads! I've been working on cars, trucks and machinery as professional and amateur for over 44 years and I have never to my recollection installed a fastener that was not going to be accessible once installed. The only way to undo those once there was a bit of grit on the threads would be with a plasma torch. Bloody ridiculous. I welded the screws to the plates of course. I wanted to refit my rear sway bar for the trip but this is not possible with the airbags in place.

Found the system good for levelling the vehicle for the basic load, also good for levelling the Trayon camper when setting up which was one of the desired advantages. When we got over to Port Augusta and loaded for the outback with full fuel, food and water I checked the bag heights and pressures. The maximum pressure stated in the installation instructions is 70psi. With the bags at 70psi the 130 was dragging it's arse severely and the bags were sitting on the flanges. I knew from previous weighbridge checks that we were at about 2100kg on the rear axle, well within the 130's specs.
I rang the Brisbane tech support line and discussed this with their phone guy. He got me to measure the bag heights, looked up some tables and told me that with that pressure and that height, I had approximately 997kg on each airbag, then told me I was overloaded! This did not please me. It took some convincing them that the vehicle for which they had specified this airbag setup had a GVM of 3500kg and a maximum rear axle load of 2200kg. After some to-ing and fro-ing they stated that I could increase the pressure up to a maximum of 100psi to keep the bag within it's specified height range (and if that didn't work perhaps I could get some others in my convoy to carry some of my stuff? Yeah right, convoy of one vehicle!). I expected this as I had looked at the Firestone site and found the supplied bellows is spec'd to a max load of 1400kg at 100psi, where they get the 70psi maximum is a mystery.
I found I required around 80 psi to get the airbags to sit within the specified height range. Having settled this, I had no further issues, travelled Googs track and a lot of other terrain with a near-GVM load uneventfully other than having to tighten a fitting due to one side of the vehicle settling overnight.

So my verdict thus far is yeah it's ok but I wish there were a better way.

[MLD]

your comment about load at max psi caused me to pause. Looking at the Firestone specs, the load capacity of the 1T14C-3 (ABM nil lift), -5 (ABM +2" lift), -7 & -8 even though progressively longer bellows, have +/- the same load rating (ie about 1400kg at 100psi). Like you i'm loaded heavy when i go west and i'm yet to notice any adverse behaviours from the rear bellows to the extra weight or PSI required to maintain the set ride height.

Something to consider and keep an eye out on, because the bellow base plate is larger than the coil plate, the leverage on the axle housing mount is greater. i cracked my housing mounts. Found it the day before departing into the Simpson, so it was a blessing. I had Rick Billington make up larger more sturdy housing brackets that i've welded on. He will have the drawings if you found yourself in a similar position or just want to get ahead of the problem.

[POD]

Something to consider and keep an eye out on, because the bellow base plate is larger than the coil plate, the leverage on the axle housing mount is greater. i cracked my housing mounts. Found it the day before departing into the Simpson, so it was a blessing. I had Rick Billington make up larger more sturdy housing brackets that i've welded on. He will have the drawings if you found yourself in a similar position or just want to get ahead of the problem.

I saw your note about that in your earlier post, thanks for the heads-up. Still cleaning up the slide-on camper after the trip, once I can get it off the vehicle I will be giving things a thorough going-over, will assess the spring mount problem.