Separating a Range Rover Gearbox from a V8 Motor - traps for new players.

[Lionelgee]

Hello All,

Now I have light and power to my shed (hooray!!!!) I am going to be separating a 3.9 litre Range Rover V8 motor from its automatic gearbox. This will allow me to mount the motor on a stand.

Can anyone please let me know what traps and things in general I should be looking out for while I am separating the engine from the gearbox? For example, an indication of what things should come apart easily. Then if they are not coming apart easily how can this be remedied?

Also, can you please let me know where the codes on the gearbox are stamped that identify what model it is? I bought the engine as a 3.5 litre and I found from its engine number it is actually a 3.9 litre. So, I am taking the former owner's description of what the gearbox is with some degree of speculation.


Once the engine is safely mounted the next step will be attempting to start it.

Open shed door reach across to light switch and ... "let there be light" Utter sounds of glee.

Kind regards
Lionel

[Tins]

Then if they are not coming apart easily how can this be remedied?



Look for the bolt(s) you've missed...

[discorevy]

Remove the 4 bolts for the torque converter, this will keep the converter with the gearbox when they are separated, which means that.

1: you wont drop Transmission oil over your shop floor and boots, pants etc.

2: the torque converter bush and seal won't be damaged if the motor comes out on a bit of an angle.

The numbers on the box are on the LHS beside the selector, the bottom number is the model number, which is the one you want when ordering parts.

[Lionelgee]

Remove the 4 bolts for the torque converter, this will keep the converter with the gearbox when they are separated, which means that.

1: you wont drop Transmission oil over your shop floor and boots, pants etc.

2: the torque converter bush and seal won't be damaged if the motor comes out on a bit of an angle.

The numbers on the box are on the LHS beside the selector, the bottom number is the model number, which is the one you want when ordering parts.

Hello Discorevy,

While I appreciated Tins levity, your insight was exactly what I was after. So thank you very much Discorevy. It was a very opportune post to read as well. I am about to put on some steel capped boots and lower said engine and gearbox onto the back of my trailer. I am going to have the gearbox extended off the back of the trailer while the engine is strapped down. Then hook the mobile crane onto the gearbox to support its weight while I get full access to the gearbox bolts. This is my first foray into working on a Land Rover V8 - Fingers crossed!

Kind regards
Lionel

[Lionelgee]

Hello All,

One thing I did notice about my 3.9 Litre V8 is its distinct lack of lifting points. Is the 3.9 Litre V8 one of those designs where the intake manifolds are taken off and then a special lifting bracket is bolted into the manifold bolt holes? Or did a previous owner not like the look of the previously fitted lifting points and they took them off? When I picked the engine up the bloke had it sitting in the bucket of a rather large front end loader.

My prior experience with the Series motors is that the lifting points on the 2.25 litre petrol and diesel Land Rover motors are obvious to see. So too is the 2.6 litre six cylinder petrol motor. I looked in similar places on the V8 and there is nada lifting points. I wrapped a short lifting sling around the front of the crankshaft a couple of times and put a shackle through it. There were two mounting holes at the back of the gearbox and I put two shackles so I could hook up a chain to them. The chain then hooked up to the front lifting sling. It is going to be interesting to hook up and lift the engine by itself once the gearbox is removed. Hooking up a chain around some of the exhaust manifold pipes does not really impress me that much. However, it seems like the only option that is currently available to me. There must be a better designed way to lift the motor!

No, I am not going to pressure clean the motor until I have it running and it can get nice and hot after the motor has been cleaned.

Kind regards
Lionel

[Tins]

Hello All,

One thing I did notice about my 3.9 Litre V8 is its distinct lack of lifting points. Is the 3.9 Litre V8 one of those designs where the intake manifolds are taken off and then a special lifting bracket is bolted into the manifold bolt holes? Or did a previous owner not like the look of the previously fitted lifting points and they took them off? When I picked the engine up the bloke had it sitting in the bucket of a rather large front end loader.

My prior experience with the Series motors is that the lifting points on the 2.25 litre petrol and diesel Land Rover motors are obvious to see. So too is the 2.6 litre six cylinder petrol motor. I looked in similar places on the V8 and there is nada lifting points. I wrapped a short lifting sling around the front of the crankshaft a couple of times and put a shackle through it. There were two mounting holes at the back of the gearbox and I put two shackles so I could hook up a chain to them. The chain then hooked up to the front lifting sling. It is going to be interesting to hook up and lift the engine by itself once the gearbox is removed. Hooking up a chain around some of the exhaust manifold pipes does not really impress me that much. However, it seems like the only option that is currently available to me. There must be a better designed way to lift the motor!

No, I am not going to pressure clean the motor until I have it running and it can get nice and hot after the motor has been cleaned.

Kind regards
Lionel

3.9 I have here has lifting points.

[Lionelgee]

3.9 I have here has lifting points.

Hello Tins,

When you have some time, could you please take a photograph of the lifting points and post them on this thread? Thank you!

Kind regards
Lionel

[Tins]

Hello Tins,

When you have some time, could you please take a photograph of the lifting points and post them on this thread? Thank you!

Kind regards
Lionel
I'll try, Lionel. I'll have to find it first!

[Lionelgee]

Hello All,

I bought the Rover V8 as a 3.5 litre. When I got it home I checked the engine numbers and it turned out to be a 3.9 Litre originally fitted to a Morgan Plus 8! The engine and gearbox was said to have come out of a Range Rover Classic. I was just after the power-plant and full gearbox and transfer case and was happy with what I bought. I still am. I automatically went Range Rover equals automatic gearbox. The engine and gearbox has been stored in my shed just behind my Commodore. It has been pretty much out of sight and out of mind.

I had a surprise today. The gearbox is a manual and not an automatic. The really long gear-stick should have been a bit of a give away! Doh! No, I do not get top marks for observation - do I! [bigwhistle]

The gearbox and engine were taken out of the Range Rover Classic and the body was scrapped well before I picked the parts up. Someone must have taken out the 3.5 and auto and installed the 3.9 and manual box sometime in the car's history. My care factor between an automatic and a manual gearbox was at the time and still is - zero.

Anyway, the engine and gearbox are no longer together. I will also be making another timber engine dolly as I was not too reassured with the small diameter of the bolts that my engine stand would fix the motor to. I feel safer with the engine secured by a timber frame and a set of castor wheels under the frame so I can move the motor around. The engine stand also requires the flywheel to be removed to secure the motor to the stand. This makes it pretty hard to use a starter motor to get the engine running! So timber dolly Mark III will be made next weekend.

A couple of photographs: The engine secured to the trailer while the overhanging gearbox is secured by the mobile crane. Plenty of ratchet straps including a 2. 5 tonne capacity strap to make sure the engine did not move around. The second photograph shows the empty trays on my trucks and tools cleaned and ready for next weekend! Oh and lots of bright light inside the shed.

Kind regards
Lionel

[Lionelgee]

I'll try, Lionel. I'll have to find it first!

Hello Tins,

Thank you for the reply. There is no hurry, Tins.

Kind regards
Lionel

[Lionelgee]

Hello All,

I went back to the advertisement for the engine. It was advertised as "Range Rover 3.5 V8 and LT95 gearbox". Not being into these modern components the LT95 meant zip to me! Apart from it being some form of gearbox.

Back in another thread - Would the V8 out of a Range Rover Classic be a 'Classic' V8... many people kindly contributed to my questions about the LT95. Thank you. Just wondering if there are any tips and tricks for keeping the LT95 in good condition and what things to look out for that are the warning signs that things are about to not go very well for the gearbox?

For the earlier thread please see ... Would the V8 out of a Range Rover Classic be a 'Classic' V8... (https://www.aulro.com/afvb/technical-chatter/292524-would-v8-out-range-rover-classic-classic-v8-l-2.html)


Kind regards
Lionel

[Lionelgee]

Hello All,

Which Land Rover or Range Rover was the first to have the Zahnradfabrik Friedrichshafen or ZF 4HP24 automatic transmission fitted to it? I found an internet search result which describes that, "The ZF 4HP22 transmission remains in use on vehicles with Td5 and 4.0 litre V8 engines" (accessed 22nd of May 2023 from, Land Rover Workshop Service and Repair Manuals (https://workshop-manuals.com/landrover/discovery-ii/automatic_gearbox_zf4hp22_24/description_and_operation/description). The manual does not say when the ZF 4HP22 was first fitted to a member of the Land Rover stable and which vehicle model/s it was.

Kind regards
Lionel

[TonyC]

Hi Lionel,
ZF 4HP22 was fitted to Disco 1s both V8 petrol and I believe 200 and 300Tdi diesels, certainly the 300Tdi.
I assume it was fitted to Range Rovers of the same period.

Tony

[AK83]

Hi Lionel, and just some points that you could clarify to be sure .. to be sure.

I would just claim on the basis of 'probability' ... Morgan plus 8 motor would have to be a rare thing here in Aus. Is there the chance that you have mistaken one of the engine number letters or numbers for something else.

I'm no expert on Rover v8 engines, but I'd expect a Morgan 3.9 V8 to be a serpentine belt engine, and this requires a specific crank and front cover to do. You have a V-belt engine there.

If someone went to the trouble to acquire a Morgan V8, (using 'probability again) .. I'd find it weird that they would swap out a pretty horrible Zenith carby setup for a more powerful and economical fuel injected set up.
So on this, it's not a Morgan Plus 8 engine, it's possible it's a Morgan plus 8 bottom end(ie. block and stuff) but a 3.9 Morgan era engine would not have come with carbs.

So be 100% sure on the engine number ... is the S a 5(or vice versa) is the 8 a B(or vice versa), etc.

There is a freely available spreadheet of supposed Rv8 engine numbers and a Morgan 3.9V8 should have the prefix 47A(and then 5 digits).
if this is as your engine is ... then very strange that they turned it into what you have.

3.5 and 3.9 Rangerovers had the 4HP22(86-87ish??), and the 4.6 RRs(early 90s) had the 4HP24.

LT95 meaning zip to you .. is just a pretty ordinary gearbox with integrated transfer case ... I never liked it. Centre diff too fragile, some later spec parts made it a bit less prone to wear. Too heavy as a combo to remove and refit.
The second time mine broke, I decided to change to an LT77s and LT230 and never looked back. LT95 was too noisy and clunky(gear change) and unlikeable if compared to modern gearboxes.
It's only value now would be to someone looking to restore a RRC that has been totally molested in terms of powertrain. Old RRCs are becoming(have become) collectors items and many have been modded to high heaven with engine and gearboxes. Modded RRC have no value, but original ones bring in good $s ... so someone looking to rebuild a badly modded classic may want one.

At the same time that I had a 3.5(carb model) LT95 RRC, my sisters fiance at the time had a later model 3.5EFi with HP22 .. and the ZF auto trans transformed the RRC into a luxury vehicle in every way by comparison.

[Lionelgee]

Hello All,

So here is a run down: from reading the engine number on my Rover V8 I determined that it was made and fitted to a Morgan Plus 8. From another website I found out that Morgan's changed from the previously fitted 3.5 litre V8s to the 3.9 litre V8s in 1990. By the way - as per the attached photograph the engine Number is 47A07767B.

Now given that I have a 3.9 litre V8 motor that was made in approximately 1990 that came in my case fitted with a LT95 gearbox. I also have a 1996 Discovery fitted with a 300TDI and what may be a ZF 4HP22 automatic transmission that comes fully equipped with all the sundry linkages.

Apart from removing the LT95 gearbox is it possible to exchange the LT95 with the ZF 4HP22. I bought the Discovery because it had a good 300tdi as a ready replacement if my 1993 Defender 110's 200tdi packs it in. So the option between the LT95 or the ZF 4HP22 to fit behind the 3.9 litre V8 could be wide open to me.

I know that the 3.9 litre motor in the 1996 Discovery could be fitted with either the LT95 or the ZF 4HP22. However, did the advancement of six years between the a 3.9 litre motor made in approximately 1990 change the placement of bolts and types of bell housings in the 1996 Discovery? Did the placement of bolts and types of bell housings vary between the back of the 3.9 litre motor to fit either the manual or the automatic gearbox? It seems an easy swap with a 3.9 litre V8 between the LT95 or the ZF 4HP22 on paper. However, how difficult is in reality?

Sorry for all my questions which are possibly doing various people's head's in!

For more information about my quest to identify which car my V8 motor was made for and when please see Would the V8 out of a Range Rover Classic be a 'Classic' V8... l (https://www.aulro.com/afvb/technical-chatter/292524-would-v8-out-range-rover-classic-classic-v8-l-post3193324.html#post3193324) 22nd May 2023, 10:33 PM

Kind regards
Lionel

[discorevy]

Apart from removing the LT95 gearbox is it possible to exchange the LT95 with the ZF 4HP22. I bought the Discovery because it had a good 300tdi as a ready replacement if my 1993 Defender 110's 200tdi packs it in. So the option between the LT95 or the ZF 4HP22 to fit behind the 3.9 litre V8 could be wide open to me.

I know that the 3.9 litre motor in the 1996 Discovery could be fitted with either the LT95 or the ZF 4HP22. However, did the advancement of six years between the a 3.9 litre motor made in approximately 1990 change the placement of bolts and types of bell housings in the 1996 Discovery? Did the placement of bolts and types of bell housings vary between the back of the 3.9 litre motor to fit either the manual or the automatic gearbox? It seems an easy swap with a 3.9 litre V8 between the LT95 or the ZF 4HP22 on paper. However, how difficult is in reality?

Sorry for all my questions which are possibly doing various people's head's in!



Hi Lionel

The ZF4hp22 currently behind the 300 TDI will not fit behind the V8 without varying degrees of modification ( bell housing, ring gear, flex plate, Torque converter and possibly output shaft and extension housing lengths) depending on which vehicle you plan to fit it to.

A 1996 Discovery didn't have an LT95 manual gearbox as the manual version came with the R380 5 speed as well as the ZF4hp22 auto.

As an aside, the LT stood for Leyland Transmission and the 95 was the distance in MM between the mainshaft and layshaft.

Head not "done in"... yet[smilebigeye]

[AK83]

further to discorevys reply about needing mod bits, to be sure the mod bits you need like bellhousing and stuff, will be relatively easy to find too.

Many LR vehicles used the V8 and ZF trans combination, so is easy to find the required adapters for them.
But you haven't mentioned if you have the necessary transfer case for the 4HP22 tho. We assume that the Disco is a going concern, is this correct?
If so, then you have a 300Tdi + 4HP22(auto) + Lt230 (transfer) combination.

LT95 is a gearbox AND transfer case combined in one large unit.

Are you contemplating using the 3.9 in the Disco(with the 4HP22)?
Like discorevy said, you need so many parts to be changed for the auto box .. I think it'd be easier just to find a good second hand 4HP22 out of a RRC or D1. Note that there are differences with The Disco 2 v8 4HP22 too, as they are the designated 4HP22EH(electronically controlled) and require the transmission ECU(TCU)) to go with them, in a frankenstein build of some type.
The RRC and D1 version of the 4HP22 is not electronically controlled(ie. no TCU).

But be mindful of using the engine number as a guide for some engine parts too. With the photo you've uploaded, the engine is a mix of new and old

[Lionelgee]

Hello Arthur and Discorevy,

I have to admit to having what some could consider to have evil intentions. Apart from this thread I revived an old thread about Series Hot Rods - last year (see ... Land Rover Series Hot Rod (https://www.aulro.com/afvb/series-land-rovers/232721-land-rover-series-hot-rod-post3163376.html#post3163376)).

The V8 and LT95 were initially intended to be boxed into a Series III chassis and a donor body from a non-Land Rover manufacturer grafted onto of the chassis.

Not long into the game I realised that it would be quicker and easier to up grade the chassis to either a Range Rover Classic or a Discovery 1. This would provide things like coil suspension and disc brakes fitted as standard. The engine/gearbox was advertised within 20 minutes of a place I was going to visit that weekend anyway. It seemed rather fortuitous. Engine inspected - yes it is a V8 engine with the word "Rover' on it and that big thing hanging off the back is definitely a gearbox ... tick ... tick ... haggle for a price - very reasonable ... tick. Come back in a fortnight to pick the goodies up ... tick. All good! I can be a very discerning buyer!

So, the engine and gearbox came first. Then one ponders - the Discovery has a fully as per manufacturer's specification fully functioning automatic gearbox sitting idle... The Discovery was bought only for its running and driving 300 tdi. Maybe I could use the gearbox behind the 3.9 V8?

Insufficient knowledge stored in the brain box .. need to ask more experienced people on the forum.

Thoughts are drifting to sourcing a Discovery V8 with either a manual or automatic gearbox as rolling chassis with a crap body. Or no body at all! Still undecided about whether to go manual or auto?

What I do know is the more the lower part of the car is kept as per manufacturer's specifications the easier the finished product will be to pass the roadworthy inspection. However, I would like to stay within either the 1980s or very early 1990s for the year of manufacture to avoid more complex Australian Design Rules requirements. Also, for a semi-luddite like myself, to avoid excessive electronics that is require to make the engine run. Computers in cars!!! No computers are meant to be on someone's desk.

Kind regards
Lionel

[loanrangie]

So you are building a hybrid, better speak to an engineer ASAP because it may not be possible anymore. FYI, ZF box was fitted to the RRC when it went to EFI in 86.

[d2dave]

Remove the 4 bolts for the torque converter, this will keep the converter with the gearbox when they are separated

After removing said bolts try turning and pushing the convertor back into the auto.

It should move back towards the auto a couple of mm. If it turns freely all will be good

Sometimes the spigot on the front of the convertor can get a bit tight with rust build up and even though you removed the bolts it can stay attached to the engine when you remove auto.

[Tins]

Hello Tins,

When you have some time, could you please take a photograph of the lifting points and post them on this thread? Thank you!

Kind regards
Lionel

Lionel, here is the rear one. The front will have to wait a little longer.....

185518

[Lionelgee]

Lionel, here is the rear one. The front will have to wait a little longer.....

185518

Hello Tins,

Thank you. It looks like someone must have scavenged some bolts off my engine then.

Kind regards
Lionel

[Tins]

Front one, Lionel.

185530

[Lionelgee]

Front one, Lionel.

185530

Hello Tins,

Thank you for taking the time to photograph and post the photos. They do look capable of lifting the engine don't they!

Kind regards
Lionel

[Tins]

Hello Tins,

Thank you for taking the time to photograph and post the photos. They do look capable of lifting the engine don't they!

Kind regards
Lionel

They lifted it today, Lionel...

[Lionelgee]

They lifted it today, Lionel...

Hello Tins,

I had a quick squiz today at the front lifting point on an old 2.6 six cylinder. I have to have a closer look over the weekend to see how transferable its tow lifting points are! Plus, I will be making a contribution to Bunnings' profits when I go to buy some more pine treated 'sleepers' to make an engine dolly for the V8 out of. Not a really butch name for something that allows people to move heavy stuff around... Dolly.

Kind regards
Lionel

[Lionelgee]

G'day Arthur and Other Interested Parties,

As Arthur stated, my 1996 Discover 1 came fitted with a 300TDI a 4HP22 (auto) and a Lt230 (transfer) combination.

Back in 1996 what did the V8 version petrol version of a 1996 Discovery 1 also come fitted with the 4HP22 (auto) + Lt230 (transfer) combination? If not this combination, what automatic gearbox and transfer case were V8 petrols come fitted with

Did this combination continue through the whole Discovery 1 run of production or during a particular year did the company decide to make some changes - if so what year range did the 4HP22 (auto) + Lt230 (transfer) were available?

Kind regards
Lionel

[AK83]

....

Did this combination continue through the whole Discovery 1 run of production or during a particular year did the company decide to make some changes - if so what year range did the 4HP22 (auto) + Lt230 (transfer) were available?

Kind regards
Lionel

IIRC, 200 Tdi Disco never had auto.
Auto diesel disco started with the 300 tdi.. Difference between early Disco and updated Disco are primarily the headlights(huge rectangular units that basically fit the entire headlight slot .. early series Disco had the 5x7" style rectangular type shrouded to fit in the headlight recess. The other main and obvious difference is the interior update, major part being the updated dash section.

Can't recall exact years, but roughly speaking about 1994-ish year model.

All v8s had the HP22 fitted. Pretty much all RRCs and Discos of the early years(Disco 2s etc) use the ZF autoboxes.
Really really early RangeRovers had some 3 sp Chrysler autos, but they are very few and far between, the vast vast majority of RRCs up to about mid 80s all used the 'beloved' LT95(which you have).

From that mid 80's period(again very vague but I think 86-ish) ... you could bank on a LR auto would have been a ZF4HP22. So lets say 1986(RRC) up to 2004(Disco2) and auto LR of popular choice would have used a HP22. The larger more powerful V8s used the larger HP24. There are other caveats, but can't recall all of them .. like the p38a RR(RRC replacement) used the HP24, as the majority were the 'larger engine'. but if you see one with a 4.0lt, it should have the HP22.
The other caveat to be mindful of(if you go HP22 hunting that is) .. that in the Disco 2 and P38a era, the HP22 is an electronic version with the more accurate name of ZF4HP22EH(or most folks call it the 4HP22E). The caveat to note is that it needs an ECU brains box to work, so if you find a 4 lt V8 and autobox and it is a E version, then it should have the trans ECU to go with it. Otherwise you won't get it to work without one. Whereas the full hydraulic type, like in the RRC and Disco1s, works as long as you have filled it correctly with fluid.

Side note(1): If you have a peek around the forums, there is a chap looking for a 300 Tdi autobox(that you have). If you don't have plans to install it with a 300 tdi motor into something .. there's a sell for 'ya.

Side note (2): this HP22 autobox was massively popular gearbox through the 80s and into the early 2000s' too. Many manufacturers used it. BMW, Peugeot, Ford, Porsche, Jaguar, Lotus, Maserati, Volvo .. to name a few. But BMW were the major maker that used it in a lot of their vehicles.

[Lionelgee]

Hello Arthur,

I had an 'interesting' day today that involved getting both my Discovery 1 (300tdi) and the 110 Defender with the 200tdi running today. No, my plans for today had not included getting either vehicles started. As things happened - I wound up taking the Discovery for a blat in the paddock and had it sideways a couple of times. I was surprised how much poke it had! Unfortunately the feeling I had in the Defender did not compare to the Disco. What I felt was either the clutch master cylinder or the slave cylinder taking itself off to heaven when I depressed the clutch pedal. Sort of a build up of pressure then a big purge feeling that was accompanied by muffled sort of sound down under either the floor or the firewall. Then, immediately after that the clutch pedal went straight to the floor. It did not 'pump-up'. As I was in the middle of sorting a problem at the time I have not checked the two clutch related hydraulic cylinders to see which of the two met its demise. Another tick on the 'jobs to do' check-list

For the 'project' it looks like a donor V8 Discovery 1 with 3.9 litre with a ZF4HP22 automatic could be on my post-holiday shopping list in mid-July. One thing that previously stopped me having V8s was how ridiculously penalised they are in Queensland. When the annual rego for a V8 went to very close to $1000 I drew the line. Fast forward a number of years and now my V6 Commodore is very - very close to the same line. Now I figure - might as well be hung for a sheep ...! I used to have a V8 Commodore; the V6 just does not have the same sweet sound.


Kind regards
Lionel