5W-40 oil

[Meccles]

Hi is anybody running a C3 or A3B4 synthetic oil like Penrite HPR5 in their diesel? I've got a RRS with a 3.0 SDV6 with 135000kms and must admit the German couple who post on youtube make some good points.
5w-40 is listed for a Citroen C6 with a 2.7 TD.
Clip below if you're interested

Worst Diesel Engine on the Planet ? Ford Lion V6 - Land Rover TDV6 SDV6 - YouTube (https://youtu.be/v3moekbW6z8)

[Bulletman]

Been running penrite 5w40 full synthetic in my D3 for over 150,000km changed at either 10k intervals or 6 months.. usually the 6 months is up before the 10k.

Bulletman

[Pedro_The_Swift]

Have you checked what Ford USA recommend?

[Tombie]

Changing the oil wont increase its lubrication properties.
As long as your lubrication system is up to scratch running the 30 wt oil isn’t going to do your engine any harm.

If your bearings are slopping around, clearances all worn out, pump down on flow (and therefore reduced system pressure) etc then you may have problems.

If your engine is well maintained, then 5w30 won’t do it any harm.

If your engine is 200,000+ km and those clearances are opening, then a 40 wt might be of benefit.

[Meccles]

Well given I'm at 140k now I might go to 5w-40 particularly in light of the low oil pressure these things run at

[Tombie]

Well given I'm at 140k now I might go to 5w-40 particularly in light of the low oil pressure these things run at

I’m at 193k and no intention of shifting.

[101RRS]

I am at 230,000km and still on the specified oil. Having read most of the threads on AULRO and the UK forums on this, I see nothing from "qualified" experts to change my mind - lots of views from 'experts in their own minds'.

[Tins]

One thing about Christian is he never proclaims himself to be an "expert". In fact he goes to some length to point out that he isn't, he's an electrician and a hobby YouTuber. However, he has done something that most of his detractors have not; he has rebuilt more than one of the things. He formed his opinions on the 5W30 based on research and observation, and not prejudice. Also, he is willing to alter his opinions based on new evidence.

The first engine I saw him strip had quite clearly suffered an oil starvation event which spun the bearings. On an engine as stressed as these are, it only takes seconds. Pretty easy to form an opinion on the oil used based on that, along with the different recommendations in different countries. Is he right? Well, I'd say he has more info than many here simply because he has done it.

The last one he did obviously didn't have a servicing issue, and I really hope he comes back with a metallurgical report on that crank, because it was clearly not an oil supply issue, as the bearings were perfect.

One of the points he has made many times in his vids is that there are many, many of these engines out there with high mileage that haven't broken. I would add one word to that: yet. The fact that individual engines mentioned here have reached around 200,000 Km without failure does not mean they're immune.

I hope everyone continues to enjoy their cars, because the things are incredible.

[shanegtr]

The first engine I saw him strip had quite clearly suffered an oil starvation event which spun the bearings. On an engine as stressed as these are, it only takes seconds. Pretty easy to form an opinion on the oil used based on that, along with the different recommendations in different countries. Is he right? Well, I'd say he has more info than many here simply because he has done it.


How does one know after the fact which one occurred first? A spun bearing can cause oil starvation and vice versa. Once the secondary damage of the initial failure is done it gets tricking finding the actual cause. I personally think that its actually a case of spun bearing first, but that's just my opinion.

[Tins]

How does one know after the fact which one occurred first? A spun bearing can cause oil starvation and vice versa. Once the secondary damage of the initial failure is done it gets tricking finding the actual cause. I personally think that its actually a case of spun bearing first, but that's just my opinion.

Fair enough, a spun bearing will cause a blockage, but what caused the bearing to spin if there was adequate lubrication to form an "oil wedge" ( that's the term I was taught, there are others )? In a properly lubed engine the crank shouldn't really contact the main bearings at all, except on startup.

[Tombie]

One thing about Christian is he never proclaims himself to be an "expert". In fact he goes to some length to point out that he isn't, he's an electrician and a hobby YouTuber. However, he has done something that most of his detractors have not; he has rebuilt more than one of the things. He formed his opinions on the 5W30 based on research and observation, and not prejudice. Also, he is willing to alter his opinions based on new evidence.

The first engine I saw him strip had quite clearly suffered an oil starvation event which spun the bearings. On an engine as stressed as these are, it only takes seconds. Pretty easy to form an opinion on the oil used based on that, along with the different recommendations in different countries. Is he right? Well, I'd say he has more info than many here simply because he has done it.

The last one he did obviously didn't have a servicing issue, and I really hope he comes back with a metallurgical report on that crank, because it was clearly not an oil supply issue, as the bearings were perfect.

One of the points he has made many times in his vids is that there are many, many of these engines out there with high mileage that haven't broken. I would add one word to that: yet. The fact that individual engines mentioned here have reached around 200,000 Km without failure does not mean they're immune.

I hope everyone continues to enjoy their cars, because the things are incredible.

He does proclaim it, forty something years in the automotive industry is one of his quotes.

I wrote to him, asking his level of training within the industry and also with some other questions regarding oil analysis and others (I also complimented him and Vera on their how to videos etc).

What I did not get was a response outlining his auto engineering or mechanical experience.

What he is, is an entertaining vehicle enthusiast, however I see as a content creator he is following the usual pattern.
1 Fledgling channel
2 Increasing following
3 Useful informative videos
4 Almost all content covered
5 Alternative content creation to keep volume up

It’s the usual pattern.

Their videos are good especially the earlier ones with the how to content. The later “conspiracy” type ones are flawed and are purely opinion.

[Tins]

He does proclaim it, forty something years in the automotive industry is one of his quotes.




C'mon, where does he say that? He would only be about mid 40s himself.


DescriptionWe are Vera & Christian and we are hobby YouTubers. We live in Germany in a tiny village with a population of 600 and we are car and 4x4 enthusiasts. We love our Land Rovers. We do as much work as we possibly can on our cars by ourself. Our goal is, not to have any Land Rover mechanic ever touch one of our cars and so far we are successful. We build up a well-equipped workshop and we have some skills to use it. Our son Robin (18) is a black smith and our son Philipp (16) is a talented BMX rider.
Our videos are purly for entertainment and are not intended as a how-to guide.
We are not sponsored by anybody and we are also not interested in any sponsorship (do not contact us).
In case you want to write us (please keep the message short as we prioritize emails from our Patreons):
Vera@LRTime.de
Christian@LRTime.de

Hardly a proclamation, Mike. He often states that he is an electrician. I took his "auto industry experience" to be just that, experience with manufacturers.

However, of course it's just opinion, same as yours and mine. Take 'em or leave 'em. Some folk seem to want to shoot the messenger.

[Tombie]

C & V are looking at getting a Grenadier..

Should be horrified to find out it uses 5w30 oil

[DazzaTD5]

He does proclaim it, forty something years in the automotive industry is one of his quotes.

I wrote to him, asking his level of training within the industry and also with some other questions regarding oil analysis and others (I also complimented him and Vera on their how to videos etc).

What I did not get was a response outlining his auto engineering or mechanical experience.

What he is, is an entertaining vehicle enthusiast, however I see as a content creator he is following the usual pattern.
1 Fledgling channel
2 Increasing following
3 Useful informative videos
4 Almost all content covered
5 Alternative content creation to keep volume up

It’s the usual pattern.

Their videos are good especially the earlier ones with the how to content. The later “conspiracy” type ones are flawed and are purely opinion.

*absolutely right, I actually do like some of the videos great fun.
*As for experience... mechanical engineer? mechanic? 30 plus years in the automotive repair industry?
*One of the comments his wife says is along the lines of "the dudes name... he knows bluh bluh"
*No, give someone 30 odd years repairing cars and his woman can say "bluh bluh he knows"
*The other great big elephant in the room is their sample of what ? 3 ****in Land Rovers? are you kidding me.... give me a break, do a couple of hundred and you have a sample worth youtubing about.
*As I pointed out in another one of my posts... VW engines are way more **** than Land Rover, whats their excuse?

I have noted people that have spent time working in a car manufacturing plant seem to think they are more knowledgeable than the people working in the repair industry.
Electrical qualified people often seem to think they know more than other trades and professionals regardless of the industry. One of my best mates is an electrical contractor, I always say a EC licences means "everything covered" licence ....

I say the comment about electrician a bit tongue in cheek, my mate gets it, but I also know Electricians can be princesses at times (again tongue in cheek)

[101RRS]

My comment about "experts in their own mind" was not targetted by anyone in particular - I haven't looked at this Christian's guys videos but have heard others talk about him - I am sure he means well but I am more informed by the many Land Rover Indies on the many relevant forums who contribute to the debate - most agree stay with the recommended oil - unless there is some climate that dictates the need for a change.

[shanegtr]

Fair enough, a spun bearing will cause a blockage, but what caused the bearing to spin if there was adequate lubrication to form an "oil wedge" ( that's the term I was taught, there are others )? In a properly lubed engine the crank shouldn't really contact the main bearings at all, except on startup.
Likely poor crush from the bearing cap due to incorrect tolerances. If there is any fretting over the years and km's of operation then the drag of the oil film could be enough to spin the bearing slightly -wouldnt have to creep around the full diameter of the oil feed hole to start restricting oil feed to the bearing

[DiscoDB]

Have you checked what Ford USA recommend?

It is telling that Ford in the US publish a temp range chart and say to select an oil viscosity that suits the temperature range you are operating in. They do recommend 5W-40 for the 3.0 diesel when using the F-150 under what they define as “severe” duty which includes:

Moderate to heavy loads or towing
Off road conditions
Extended idling
Extended hot or cold operation.

They also increase the oil change frequency under these conditions.

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230602/bff438987c3897698f1cf08f6fe5ac6c.jpg

https://uploads.tapatalk-cdn.com/20230602/23564e26b5dfb0a252b764ab4469ed10.jpg

This is for a vehicle which is lighter than the D4, and so no reason why these recommendations couldn’t be applied equally to the D4.

From this I would conclude there is no harm selecting either 5W-30 or 5W-40 depending on how or where you use your vehicle.

If you regularly see engine oil temps above 110 degC then there would be a benefit to go up to 5W-40 just to give a thicker oil film at high temp.

I would be wary of using a 5W-30 oil which is at the thin end of the 30 grade viscosity range unless you are in a cooler climate and don’t use under loaded conditions. Some 5W-30 oils have a 100degC oil viscosity which is just above the cut off for a 20 grade, and would be going in the opposite direction to what Ford US would recommend for moderately loaded vehicles using the 3.0.

If using a thinner 5W-30 oil, I would increase the frequency of oil changes as these oils do thin out even more with extended use and end up being more like a 20 grade oil. This is when you risk metal on metal contact when very hot and loaded.

And for a RRS - given these are generally less loaded than a D4, then unless used a lot for heavy towing or in hot climates then 5W-30 would be fine.

The bottom line is - as Ford US would wisely recommend, you select the oil viscosity that matches the conditions you operate in. As we all know, JLR like to dumb things down and prefer a one size fits all approach, so selecting a 5W-30 oil which has a 100degC viscosity at the upper end of the 30 grade band (i.e. between 11-12.5cst) is a good option. For non-DPF vehicles, then the Castrol Edge A3/B4 5W-30 is probably a good compromise and I believe is what JLR originally used with the D3/D4.

[PerthDisco]

The ShanesShed YouTube oil specs video is the most authoritative there is on this subject covering 20x the technical detail of C&V

[DiscoDB]

The ShanesShed YouTube oil specs video is the most authoritative there is on this subject covering 20x the technical detail of C&V

Yet to see Shane do his promised oil viscosity video - this would be a good follow up.

The oil spec video is very good. The Castrol Edge A3/B4 5W-30 and 5W-40 oils also meet MB229.5, so should be a good spec oil from Shane’s observations.

I mentioned above that Castrol Edge A3/B4 5W-30 is at the upper end of the 30 grade range (11.9cSt at 100degC), the 5W-40 is also at the lower end of the 40 grade range (12.8cSt at 100degC). They are very similar from a viscosity point of view just sitting on either side of the 30/40 grade cut off (12.5cSt).

The unknown is what minimum viscosity the journal bearings have been designed for. Some of the thinner 5W-30 oils which are near the 20 grade cut off can be as low as 6cSt above 120degC and so unless the engine has been designed to handle very low viscosity (i.e. 0W-20 was originally specified for normal operation), there is no harm erring on the side of caution when operating under more arduous conditions and hence, going up a viscosity grade.

This would be why both Citroen and Ford US recommend bumping up the oil viscosity for high temperature or moderately to high loaded operation - just to keep away from the minimum design viscosity when the oil temps increase.

[DiscoDB]

C & V are looking at getting a Grenadier..

Should be horrified to find out it uses 5w30 oil

Perhaps Ineos are also following the JLR approach in simplifying the options by going with a one size fits all mid range option. Certainly no issue with this for a new engine in moderate climates, or if the Grenadier has good engine oil cooling when being used in hot conditions. 5W could still be too thick for some climates the Grenadier will be sold to.

BMW do typically specify a range of viscosities to use depending on the operating conditions, as long as they meet the relevant BMW LL spec.

For the previous Diesel engines 4 viscosities are specified ranging from 0W-30 to 5W-40. Of course BMW sell this as their “special oil” - which until recently was just repackaged Castrol Edge (same as what JLR recommend).

Edit: I see Ineos are specifying either 0W-30 or 5W-30 for the B57 3.0 Diesel, and actually recommend 0W-30. I am sure this will get some questions - but BMW would no doubt specify an oil that suits the engine design. Would be interesting to compare bearing clearance specs.

[shanegtr]

Yet to see Shane do his promised oil viscosity video - this would be a good follow up.


Yeah, havent had any spare time to piece that one together

[DiscoDB]

Yeah, havent had any spare time to piece that one together

I don’t envy you making that one. Understanding oil grades is one thing, understanding journal bearing design, clearances, minimum film thickness, flow rates, and cooling is another matter altogether.

[brad72]

Intersting for sure. I get my 5w30 from the local indy as this is guaranteed to to be right gade but on my 300,000Km 2.7 D4 do i try 5w40 as I know she is getting worn. I do changes every 10,000km or 6 months but there is no definative answer to the age old question.

[DiscoDB]

You won’t get a definitive answer because your engine is now well outside of warranty. The only definitive answer is for the period the engine is under warranty and in which case you only use the oil JLR recommend.

If you have good oil pressure, change the oil ahead of schedule, and you don’t use your D4 under adverse conditions (high loads, hot conditions, high oil temps) then 5W-30 to the right spec (or better) is fine.

If you don’t meet the above, then going to a 5W-40 oil, again to the right spec (or better), can be beneficial.

Neither option is entirely wrong - just one gives better fuel economy, and the other better wear protection.

The caveat on this is extended use under severe conditions which leads to very high oil temps really could use the +10 on the oil grade. Particularly if you have any risk of oil dilution.

The real issue is we are now using these engines well outside what Ford originally designed them for, hence outside of warranty you now pick the oil which suits the conditions you operate in. The good news is the specs for oils available today are certainly better than the oil specs available when the 2.7 TDV6 was originally designed - so you have plenty of good choices.

[PerthDisco]

Looking forward to the tear down of the 2.7 engine on LRTime with 270k kms will be super interesting what the wear looks like.

[brad72]

Looking forward to the tear down of the 2.7 engine on LRTime with 270k kms will be super interesting what the wear looks like.

Will be interesting that's for sure

[DiscoDB]

Looking forward to the tear down of the 2.7 engine on LRTime with 270k kms will be super interesting what the wear looks like.

So what was your thoughts seeing the strip down?

The mains looked good for an easy 500-600K, pity the conrod bearings were already worn beyond their tolerance limit.

The problem is we don’t know what the original clearances were other than assuming they could have been at the lower end of the min/max spec range.

[PerthDisco]

So what was your thoughts seeing the strip down?

The mains looked good for an easy 500-600K, pity the conrod bearings were already worn beyond their tolerance limit.

The problem is we don’t know what the original clearances were other than assuming they could have been at the lower end of the min/max spec range.

Some relief as similar age engines kms and service interval on mine.

ShaneLR has 430k km on his so seems if Pommy Dave in the factory has properly made the crank and you’ve serviced it keep going.

The fact you can’t get OEM bearings and the variable quality he’s finding on aftermarket items is more troubling. Best let sleeping dogs lie.

If anything what Christian does well is triple check every component for tolerance.

There’s plenty of guys who’ve dropped in new bearings but I’d guess taken no measurements before or after.

What would definitely be worth doing is a big refresh on the heads as this is pretty standard on heavy diesel maintenance the heads will be done at half time of the full overhaul.

[stuarth44]

Hi is anybody running a C3 or A3B4 synthetic oil like Penrite HPR5 in their diesel? I've got a RRS with a 3.0 SDV6 with 135000kms and must admit the German couple who post on youtube make some good points.
5w-40 is listed for a Citroen C6 with a 2.7 TD.
Clip below if you're interested

Worst Diesel Engine on the Planet ? Ford Lion V6 - Land Rover TDV6 SDV6 - YouTube (https://youtu.be/v3moekbW6z8)
yes, I listen to Christian, he is, IMO the best automotive Engineer out there
not sure of his education, but for me, what he says goes, I use 5w40
I served time with Cummins Engine Co, Au, wished I had Christians brain

[veebs]

yes, I listen to Christian, he is, IMO the best automotive Engineer out there
not sure of his education, but for me, what he says goes, I use 5w40
I served time with Cummins Engine Co, Au, wished I had Christians brain

By his own admission, Christian is an amateur enthusiast. That said, he is intelligent and very well researched, so certainly worth listening to. I would still verify for myself though.

[BradC]

Of all the threads to necro, you had to pick a "which oil" thread!! [wink11]

[stuarth44]

By his own admission, Christian is an amateur enthusiast. That said, he is intelligent and very well researched, so certainly worth listening to. I would still verify for myself though.
not sure bout that, he is trained in some engineering discipline, but which
me
i have a few trades, machinist, diesel fitter and building alu yachts that require stretching and forming of up to 8mm plate, however even though, I wired em, did all the engineering, hydraulics ss rails, and other trades, I still hold him in the highest esteem
I am old, tired, and stuffed now, so maybe I forget that once I could have equaled him on engine rebuilds, I could never equal on electronics

[veebs]

not sure bout that, he is trained in some engineering discipline, but which


I meant only in the sense he isn't advertising as being a trained automotive engineer, Land Rover tech, etc. That doesn't mean he isn't equal or better than many engnieers at understanding and resolving issue in these cars.

I suspect his 'i'm no expert' position is also a safety for him - all care, but no responsibility for anything his viewers might do to their cars!

[Graeme]

I'm looking to change to 5W40 in my 4.4 TDV8 due to a drastic reduction in oil pressure from idle right through the rev range within a few minutes of starting, even with new 5W30. Current contenders are Castrol Edge A3/B4 5W40 and Penrite HPR 5W40. Too many 4.4 SDV8s are failing with slipped bearings.

Edit: Decision made in favor of the Castrol oil due to Supercheap having both on sale that ends today.

[Tins]

Well, our crazy couple have bought another failed engine D4. Teardown vid is a few weeks away apparently. This one runs. After a fashion. So, maybe something different.

He did a bit of a walk around, pointing out some of the differences between model years. German market, of course. New car is the AdBlue version.

[Tins]

Seems Christian learned his machinist skills at his father's knee, so to speak.

[Graeme]

My 4.4 TDV8 using Edge 5W40 now meets LR's paltry pressure specs for an engine that loves to operate between 1000 and 2000 rpm, with 12 psi at idle and 35 psi at 3000/3500 rpm, albeit at an oil temp around 90 degC after a short run, 25 degC above LR's oil temp of 65 degC. Penrite HPR 5W40 has slightly better typical 100 degC viscosity so might try that next time.

[Pedro_The_Swift]

Before the rad replacement the oil temps were always 15-20deg hotter than the engine, now it seems they are from the same sensor,, they both sit on 92 regardless of well, anything really..
I once saw 121deg sump oil temp....

[scarry]

Well, our crazy couple have bought another failed engine D4..

They seem a pretty common item,that is modern LRs with failed engines.[bigsad]

There is a mob in the UK that repair hundreds of them and have a good few vids around.

The company is called MDS.

[Graeme]

Up to temperature but not pulling the heavy van...

[Graeme]

They seem a pretty common item,that is modern LRs with failed engines.[bigsad]
Stupidly low oil pressure might be OK when the engine and the oil are new.

[scarry]

Stupidly low oil pressure might be OK when the engine and the oil are new.

Certainly a **** poor outcome and frustrating for owners.Many vehicles have been using 30W oils for decades with no issues.

And the newer LR models have this well documented oil dilution issue.

Just imagine if a garden variety brand had these numbers of engine issues,we would be hearing about it every day in the media.

On another note the LC300 runs a 20W oil.
Time will tell with it I suppose,but going on previous LC generation engines,they should be fine.

Edit,could the oil pump in yours be inefficient,but I suppose it is a huge expensive job to change.
Is there another vehicle you could check your pressures against,which may help?
They sometimes get inefficient in the 1-VD,but usually at huge mileage,well over the 400K.

[DiscoJeffster]

With improved machining comes tighter tolerances and thus thinner oils. The world isn’t full of dinosaurs engines these days.

[scarry]

With improved machining comes tighter tolerances and thus thinner oils. The world isn’t full of dinosaurs engines these days.

With more than likely reduced longevity.

[Tins]

With more than likely reduced longevity.

ASPW went on a rant about this recently. Didn't stop him buying a 2.8 though. But it must be more highly stressed than a 4.5 V8 doing the same work.

Hmmm.... Wonder how a 4.5 would go in the Oka??

[Graeme]

could the oil pump in yours be inefficient,but I suppose it is a huge expensive job to change.
Is there another vehicle you could check your pressures against,which may help?
They sometimes get inefficient in the 1-VD,but usually at huge mileage,well over the 400K.
Mine's hot idle and max pressure @ revs are on spec now, well above minimums, using oil appropriate for the ambient temperature here. Hence it appears that both the pump and the bearings are OK. I could change the pump myself but I can't see the point, which I may still do but not at the moment. A genuine pump is under $800 ex the nearest LR dealer plus a new crankshaft bolt so cost is acceptable.

I'm still dumb-founded that after a 20 deg night that initial idle pressure is 30 psi and 50 psi at around 1500 but only about 10 minutes driving before idle is back to 12 and 1500 is nudging 25. 100 kph is 1300 rpm in top gear and already in the max torque band so plenty of opportunity for bearing abuse.

[TonyC]

Hmmm.... Wonder how a 4.5 would go in the Oka??

6.6 Duramax has been done

Tony

[shanegtr]

On another note the LC300 runs a 20W oil.

I know what your implying, but technically it runs a 0W - 0W-20. An SAE 20W is not the same viscosity as an SAE 20.

With improved machining comes tighter tolerances and thus thinner oils. The world isn’t full of dinosaurs engines these days.
The biggest factor in thinner oil usage is emissions not tolerances

Watch out, 0W-8 oil is becoming more popular

[Graeme]

Does anyone know what hot oil pressures the LC300 runs?

[DazzaTD5]

just some added info, I have mentioned this before...

the biggest issue engineers face when having to meet tighter emission requirements is internal friction.
To reduce internal friction you create greater clearance between components and reduce the tightness of components such as piston rings.
You also put in a thinner oil hence the 0W30, and such becoming quite common.

The downside of this is more blow-by and oil dilution.
I say "more" because since the dawn of the internal combustion engine there has always been a degree of blow-by and oil dilution.

[DazzaTD5]

I have no doubt some here on AULRO know all about oils etc...

But for the ones that don't and want to understand as much as they care to, here is some light reading.
Would be good reading for youtubers and the likes.

Just a moment... (https://bobistheoilguy.com/motor-oil-101/)
Just a moment... (https://bobistheoilguy.com/)