The Hidden Costs of Installing Wind Turbines.

[Xtreme]

Visited a farmer friend in south western NSW recently where quite a few turbines are beig installed.
During conversation my eyes were opened to some interesting facts, especially in regard to installation costs.
One farmer was 'encouraged' to sell off all his stock (sheep & cattle) so that access to the installation site could be had by the workers and delivery trucks without the need to open and close the property gates! For this he will be paid $1.5M over a three year period.
Another was paid an undisclosed amount to allow right of way through his property for the delivery of oversize components that couldn't be taken via the public road.
And apparantly at the end of the turbine's expected 20 year life expectancy, the hosts (in this area mostly farmers) responsibility to remove and dispose of each turbine.

Does anyone have any idea how long it will take to recover the capital outlay and installation costs of these turbines?

[mrs]

Hate to think the cost of removal

[Xtreme]

Hate to think the cost of removal
The presence of asbestos will add to that cost also.

[scarry]

Hate to think the cost of removal

And the noise,once they are all operating,that is when the wind is blowing.

[p38arover]

Dismantling of a wind turbine would make a big hole in that $1.5m if the farmers is required to do it. Disposal of the turbine blades is also an issue. There are large piles of them around the world where they have been taken out of service.

Bloomberg - Are you a robot? (https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2020-02-05/wind-turbine-blades-can-t-be-recycled-so-they-re-piling-up-in-landfills)

[Tombie]

The presence of asbestos will add to that cost also.

Asbestos? In what nowadays?

[scarry]

Dismantling of a wind turbine would make a big hole in that $1.5m if the farmers is required to do it. Disposal of the turbine blades is also an issue. There are large piles of them around the world where they have been taken out of service.

Bloomberg - Are you a robot? (https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2020-02-05/wind-turbine-blades-can-t-be-recycled-so-they-re-piling-up-in-landfills)

It would also be difficult to sell the property,in that situation.

They probably think they never will,possibly been in the family for generations.But things change.

[p38arover]

I suppose a farmer could drop it and leave it where it fell for future owners to worry about.

[mrs]

I suppose a farmer could drop it and leave it where it fell for future owners to worry about.I suspect that would be the most likely outcome, leave it, and if it falls apart in place saves dismantling it

[Xtreme]

Dismantling of a wind turbine would make a big hole in that $1.5m if the farmers is required to do it. Disposal of the turbine blades is also an issue. There are large piles of them around the world where they have been taken out of service.

Bloomberg - Are you a robot? (https://www.bloomberg.com/news/features/2020-02-05/wind-turbine-blades-can-t-be-recycled-so-they-re-piling-up-in-landfills)

That $1.5M is only compensation for destocking and leaving the gates open. I'm pretty sure they also get an annual payment - not sure how much - while the turbines are operating. Just another one of those hidden costs contributing to our cheap renewable energy!

[Xtreme]

Asbestos? In what nowadays?
I was surprised when I heard it also. And althiugh my source is considered reliable, I've not verified it at this stage.

[NavyDiver]

I suppose a farmer could drop it and leave it where it fell for future owners to worry about.

Could make an interesting fence? [bighmmm] There is a company Recyling IF paid to do it I assume!! Vestas unveils circularity solution to end landfill for turbine blades (https://www.vestas.com/en/media/company-news/2023/vestas-unveils-circularity-solution-to-end-landfill-for-c3710818)

Suspect sites had some asbestos in wind turbine blades. I suspect its a bit waffly [bigrolf]

[350RRC]

Visited a farmer friend in south western NSW recently where quite a few turbines are beig installed.
During conversation my eyes were opened to some interesting facts, especially in regard to installation costs.
One farmer was 'encouraged' to sell off all his stock (sheep & cattle) so that access to the installation site could be had by the workers and delivery trucks without the need to open and close the property gates! For this he will be paid $1.5M over a three year period.
Another was paid an undisclosed amount to allow right of way through his property for the delivery of oversize components that couldn't be taken via the public road.
And apparantly at the end of the turbine's expected 20 year life expectancy, the hosts (in this area mostly farmers) responsibility to remove and dispose of each turbine.

Does anyone have any idea how long it will take to recover the capital outlay and installation costs of these turbines?

The tenant is supposedly responsible..................... info here:

Decommissioning | Clean Energy Council (https://www.cleanenergycouncil.org.au/advocacy-initiatives/community-engagement/decommissioning)

and here, with cost estimates:

Host Landowner Matters | aeic (https://www.aeic.gov.au/observations-and-recommendations/chapter-1-host-landowner-negotiations)

cheers, DL

[Arapiles]

The tenant is supposedly responsible..................... info here:

Decommissioning | Clean Energy Council (https://www.cleanenergycouncil.org.au/advocacy-initiatives/community-engagement/decommissioning)

and here, with cost estimates:

Host Landowner Matters | aeic (https://www.aeic.gov.au/observations-and-recommendations/chapter-1-host-landowner-negotiations)

cheers, DL


1. Most contracts would require the wind farm owner/operator which is leasing the land to remove the wind turbines and remediate the land at the end of the lease - the risk with that is that the windfarm operator goes broke and a new operator can't be found to take it to the decommisioning stage, but so far in Australia that hasn't happened. And I doubt that it could because it'd be a money-generating asset with no debts to pay off, as it's the original owners that took the haircut in the case I'm thinking of. In any case, if I was a landowner I'd happily have a turbine on my land for my own use - the question is what "worn out" means: if it's 50% of original capacity then that's still enough to run my AC and TV.

2. Turbines actually add value to properties because of the income they generate, which is also why banks/mortgagees are happy to approve the leases, And they don't really prevent farming continuing either, particularly grazing. Even better if you're paid to not have stock there ....

[NavyDiver]

this surprised me a lot as I thought the WIND tech was very good.

"Wind Turbines Taller Than the Statue of Liberty Are Falling Over (https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2023-01-23/wind-turbine-collapses-punctuate-green-power-growing-pains)"

It may be growing pain due to ever increasing size.


Not Bankruptcy immune "“The wind business is not for the faint of heart,” Beth Soholt, director of the St. Paul-based trade group Wind on the Wires, said in an interview. “These are big energy facilities … It is a long-term contract with utilities that expect you to produce. A lot of things can go wrong. (https://www.startribune.com/owners-of-two-minnesota-wind-farms-file-for-bankruptcy-court-protection/287867471/#:~:text=The%20companies%20that%20collectively%20o wn%20the%20two%20Minwind,have%20to%20shut%20down%2 C%20according%20to%20regulatory%20filings.)”" (2015!!)

A rather famous investor Warren Buffett is said to have suggested they are a great investment as the money inflow from Government He as proposed a 3.9 billion USD in the sector not for the revenue but for the incentives allegedly! (https://www.bloomberg.com/news/articles/2022-01-19/buffett-s-berkshire-proposes-3-9-billion-wind-solar-project#:~:text=Warren%20Buffett%20%E2%80%99s%20Be rkshire%20Hathaway%20Inc.%20is%20proposing,that%20 could%20be%20among%20the%20renewable%20industry%E2 %80%99s%20biggest.).

A N.I.M.B.Y. protest in Port Fairy mixed wind with seismic testing! (https://www.standard.net.au/story/8280007/hundreds-join-fight-for-the-bight-protest/) I am horrified by seismic testing in the whale rich area and would have been there had I noticed it was one!


Saw 6 + blue whales there a few weeks ago. Have seen hundreds of sperm and southern right whales as well as dolphins and seals in the oceans there. I know exactly what my SONAR pings did to anything close to the ship! I doubt any one can say seismic testing does no harm to marine life!

Back to wind issues. It is good where it fits. Its often decentralized adding significant cost for new transmission lines. Its energy densisty is rather poor, EROI is not in my view (https://en.wikipedia.org/wiki/Energy_return_on_investment)stand alone without significant other costs for supply when wind is not blowing or storage or waste when wind is great but demand is low. EROI is very very good for "Billionaires Warren Buffett and Bill Gates have chosen a remote town in Wyoming to build a new small nuclear power plant intended to help replace the coal-fired plants dotting the state."

Appreciate some government support is going to that side as well! Not here of course! Strong rumors that Denmark Wind is using biomass or diesel generators to meet contract obligation. DOOMBERG not me make me go HMMMM?

[NavyDiver]

Scotland wind- Must be the haggis?

"Sixty turbines at Arecleoch Wind farm and 11 at Glenn App near Cairnrayn in South Ayrshire were affacted and connected to six huge diesel generators. The windfarms are operated by Scottish Power Renewables, a subsidiary of Spanish-based Iberdrola, which operates 1183 onshore turbines which can produce enough electricity to power two million homes."

I call total waffle in this statement "“For context, Scottish Power measures the availability of its 1183 onshore turbines and looks at the percentage of time each turbine is ready and available to produce green energy, in 2022 this reliability figure was 96 per cent.”"

Wind in Scotland is blowy most of the time (https://weatherspark.com/h/s/36422/2022/1/Historical-Weather-Summer-2022-in-Glasgow-United-Kingdom#Figures-WindSpeed)! Not all of the time![thumbsupbig]

[p38arover]

Story about dumped wind turbine blades in vic.

https://www.msn.com/en-au/news/other/they-ll-just-sit-there-wind-turbine-blades-dumped-in-forest/ar-AA1ektt7?rc=1&ocid=winp1taskbar&cvid=5069474bd2af4ea1f6d8b204294c51d2&ei=7

[350RRC]

........................
I call total waffle in this statement "“For context, Scottish Power measures the availability of its 1183 onshore turbines and looks at the percentage of time each turbine is ready and available to produce green energy, in 2022 this reliability figure was 96 per cent.”"

.......................

The reliability figure is not the same as the 'co-efficiency factor' which is how much of nameplate capacity each wind farm is likely to put into the grid each year taking into account availability, location, etc.

Usually commercial in confidence.

The only list I've ever seen is below. It's years out of date and the 'new' turbines at the time were only 3.3 mW.

186328

[NavyDiver]

The reliability figure is not the same as the 'co-efficiency factor' which is how much of nameplate capacity each wind farm is likely to put into the grid each year taking into account availability, location, etc.

Usually commercial in confidence.

The only list I've ever seen is below. It's years out of date and the 'new' turbines at the time were only 3.3 mW.

186328

I re read it - It stated "each turbine is ready and available to produce green energy" A lot like the many I drive past a lot feathered and NOT generating- ready to but NOT[bigwhistle]

On the other hand a protest in a whale Nursery about Off shore wind plan for Warrnambool, Port fairy- Portland or I hope not in even nicer water to the west of those spots, has my back up[bighmmm]

[3toes]

Over a decade ago was working for one of the global energy corporates. They were keen to diversify into wind as were rethinking themselves into energy suppliers not an oil company. No matter how they worked the sums they could not make a profit on wind without significant subsidies due to cost of production. It is not cheap to set up and maintain an off shore wind farm. This was before they were taking into account the cost of replacement due to improving technology making what they had installed obsolete

[Tins]

this surprised me a lot as I thought the WIND tech was very good.

?

What on earth gave you that idea? They fall over, they catch fire, they explode. Meanwhile good old Hazelwood was still running at over 90% of its nameplate when it was switched off, totally reliably.
I wonder if any studies have been done comparing the costs, both financially and environmentally, of buying, making, transporting, installing, decommissioning and subsidising the turbine eyesores against keeping Hazlewood running. I seem to recall a figure being bandied about to modernise it of about $1 billion.

[akelly]

.

[scarry]

What on earth gave you that idea? They fall over, they catch fire, they explode. Meanwhile good old Hazelwood was still running at over 90% of its nameplate when it was switched off, totally reliably.
I wonder if any studies have been done comparing the costs, both financially and environmentally, of buying, making, transporting, installing, decommissioning and subsidising the turbine eyesores against keeping Hazlewood running. I seem to recall a figure being bandied about to modernise it of about $1 billion.

And some actually believe power will get cheaper,with all this change over to renewables.:wallbash:

[mrs]

And some actually believe power will get cheaper,with all this change over to renewables.:wallbash:Because they think that it comes from the wind/sun, but they don't realise that there is a capital cost plus maintenance costs and a shortish life before it needs an update. Plus, we keep forgetting we need a base load for when the wind doesn't blow (or blows too much) or the sun doesn't shine

[scarry]

Because they think that it comes from the wind/sun, but they don't realise that there is a capital cost plus maintenance costs and a shortish life before it needs an update. Plus, we keep forgetting we need a base load for when the wind doesn't blow (or blows too much) or the sun doesn't shine

Also,we need all the cables,powerlines,transformers,etc,etc relocated to take the power from where it is going to be produced by solar,wind farms,etc..That is if the wind is blowing and sun is shining.
The whole grid needs to be restructured,rebuild,relocated and probably upgraded.

Maybe the energy providers are doing this for free[bigrolf]

More likely up the costs by 100% at least, and on charge.[bighmmm]

[RANDLOVER]

What on earth gave you that idea? They fall over, they catch fire, they explode. Meanwhile good old Hazelwood was still running at over 90% of its nameplate when it was switched off, totally reliably.
I wonder if any studies have been done comparing the costs, both financially and environmentally, of buying, making, transporting, installing, decommissioning and subsidising the turbine eyesores against keeping Hazlewood running. I seem to recall a figure being bandied about to modernise it of about $1 billion.

Hazelwood is probably much like Trigger's 20-year-old broom, that has had 17 new handles and 14 new brushes.

[Tins]

Hazelwood is probably much like Trigger's 20-year-old broom, that has had 17 new handles and 14 new brushes.
If you had ever been inside a major power station you wouldn’t say that. Very few things in there are short term.

[Tins]

https://youtu.be/aNVBP48ziXw'si=sLW1SWcvcVRNMdks

[Dorian]

If you had ever been inside a major power station you wouldn’t say that. Very few things in there are short term.

True , but a heap of people spend a lot of time and bucket loads of money keeping it that way.
A bit like most defenders.[bigwhistle]

Cheers Glen

[Dorian]

And apparantly at the end of the turbine's expected 20 year life expectancy, the hosts (in this area mostly farmers) responsibility to remove and dispose of each turbine.

The contract / depreciation will be for twenty years, just like pretty much any other commercial venture of that scale. There will be refirb / refit options that will be a 10th of the initial cost. I would fall over backwards if any company would just give away a wind turbine regardless of it's condition.

My defender started off as a company vehicle but it didn't just fall apart after 7 years. Well it was easy enough to keep bolting the bits back on.


Does anyone have any idea how long it will take to recover the capital outlay and installation costs of these turbines?

Remember, it's private money not government, since its a commercial venture it would be less than 10 years , for something as high a risk (poles falling over , cyclones etc) it's probably a lot less. A friend of mine who is doing control systems for mixed solar / wind / storage is talking less than 5.
Providing electricity prices don't go down.[bigrolf][bigrolf][bigrolf][bigrolf][bigrolf][bigrolf][bigrolf]

Cheers Glen

[Tins]

It may well be private money. Private money prefers a ROI, and it is always the end user that pays... especially at the inevitable ending of subsidies.

[Tote]

The Crookwell turbines are one of the oldest wind farms in Australia and are still operating Crookwell Wind Farm — Tilt Renewables (https://www.tiltrenewables.com/assets-and-projects/Crookwell-Wind-Farm/) we have a wind farm near our property and I believe that the going rate paid to land owners for a turbine is around $20K per turbine annually. There have been a couple of turbines on the cullerin range wind farm that have caught fire or lost a blade NSW Rural Fire Service crews contain blaze at Southern Tablelands turbine station - ABC News (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-01-05/fire-crews-tackle-wind-turbine-fire/101828414). People seem to make a fuss about the turbine blades and their disposal but that problem pales into insignificance when you compare it with the problem of disposing of tyres etc. A set of turbine blades would be about the same as the disposal of a set of tyres for a B double I reckon.

I am pretty amazed at the amount of hate directed a wind turbines given that they are generating clean energy. They aren't pretty but a quick look at the satellite pictures of Singleton NSW gives a picture of the impact of coal mining. Of course Nuclear would be equally as good but that's not about to happen.

Regards,
Tote

[RANDLOVER]

If you had ever been inside a major power station you wouldn’t say that. Very few things in there are short term.

I actually worked for a large organization, and we had not one but two power stations, both of which I worked at on multiple occasions, one on each side of a large city and the maintenance on them was huge, each of them had a village for staff to live at, mostly social and sporting types as they had a country club, tennis courts, swimming pool, sporting fields, etc. Then there was the heavy maintenance/repairs, every so often they'd have to take the rotor out of the gen set and pack it with tonnes of wood on a flatbed truck to stop the shaft bending and send it our workshops in town. In the end we just bought power from the nat'l grid and used our power stations as a bargaining chip only a running a few coal fired CCST's (closed cycle steam turbines) at a time.

A lot of stuff gets replaced during power station shut down work, like pumps, motors, cables, bearings, valves, instruments, etc Power Station Shutdown Jobs (with Salaries) 2023 | Indeed.com Australia (https://au.indeed.com/q-power-station-shutdown-jobs.html?vjk=4ec2f5f1db1039d2)

[NavyDiver]

The Crookwell turbines are one of the oldest wind farms in Australia and are still operating Crookwell Wind Farm — Tilt Renewables (https://www.tiltrenewables.com/assets-and-projects/Crookwell-Wind-Farm/) we have a wind farm near our property and I believe that the going rate paid to land owners for a turbine is around $20K per turbine annually. There have been a couple of turbines on the cullerin range wind farm that have caught fire or lost a blade NSW Rural Fire Service crews contain blaze at Southern Tablelands turbine station - ABC News (https://www.abc.net.au/news/2023-01-05/fire-crews-tackle-wind-turbine-fire/101828414). People seem to make a fuss about the turbine blades and their disposal but that problem pales into insignificance when you compare it with the problem of disposing of tyres etc. A set of turbine blades would be about the same as the disposal of a set of tyres for a B double I reckon.

I am pretty amazed at the amount of hate directed a wind turbines given that they are generating clean energy. They aren't pretty but a quick look at the satellite pictures of Singleton NSW gives a picture of the impact of coal mining. Of course Nuclear would be equally as good but that's not about to happen.

Regards,
Tote

There was a Wind Turbine at Shark Bay in the 90s. Cool to watch. It was Tiny by today's standards.

It is often a NIMBY thing. The cost of the transmission lines and other items at Crookwell wind farm are interesting

There is a Crookwell 2 "$149.088m" Link (https://www.power-technology.com/marketdata/crookwell-ii-australia/#:~:text=The%20project%20is%20currently%20owned%20 by%20Global%20Power,%28CO2%29%20a%20year.%20The%20 project%20cost%20is%20%24149.088m.) and a Crookwell 3 costing a similar amount. Number 3 is on just two farms/landholdings.

They all connect to 330volt High Transmission lines which cost a LOT per KM. They seem to be on or near a main NSW/VIC interconnection line. I could not find the payment per pole to the 2 farms.

https://crookwellthreewindfarm.globalpower-generation.com.au/wp-content/uploads/2022/02/DJI_0312.jpg


Suspect it would be a good investment for income to the 2 farmers IF removal once decommissioning is included?????

Wind is fine with me when its impacts are considered and done with fair agreements. Not at all keen on dumping them in the huge Upwelling areas off shore. There is direct and indirect cost and benefits for everything!

[Arapiles]

Because they think that it comes from the wind/sun, but they don't realise that there is a capital cost plus maintenance costs and a shortish life before it needs an update.

Yeah .... nah.

With most renewables there's bugger all input costs once the panels or turbines are constructed, and little maintenance either. That's why, since at least the early 2000s, infrastructure relating to fossil fuels - such as power stations - have been referred to as stranded assets. As a result you can't get finance for them, so they are, to use the industry term, "unbankable". In the absence of massive government subsidies I doubt that anyone would build a coal-powered power station these days.


Plus, we keep forgetting we need a base load for when the wind doesn't blow (or blows too much) or the sun doesn't shine

Maybe, but that base load doesn't need to be coal-powered. Batteries and a wide distribution network.

As I've said before, the banks don't lend on renewables projects unless they've worked out that they're going to get their money back. It's not being funded by clueless hippies but very clever guys with MBAs.


A lot of these discussions remind me of what my parents told me the old people were saying when electricity came to our district in the 1940s .....

[NavyDiver]

Yeah .... nah.

With most renewables there's bugger all input costs once the panels or turbines are constructed, and little maintenance either. That's why, since at least the early 2000s, infrastructure relating to fossil fuels - such as power stations - have been referred to as stranded assets. As a result you can't get finance for them, so they are, to use the industry term, "unbankable". In the absence of massive government subsidies I doubt that anyone would build a coal-powered power station these days.



Maybe, but that base load doesn't need to be coal-powered. Batteries and a wide distribution network.

As I've said before, the banks don't lend on renewables projects unless they've worked out that they're going to get their money back. It's not being funded by clueless hippies but very clever guys with MBAs.


A lot of these discussions remind me of what my parents told me the old people were saying when electricity came to our district in the 1940s .....
Grid size batteries? Never going to occur. The Pumped Hydro 'battery' is really the only larger scale possible now.

""German government has agreed to provide €7.5bn of state guarantees to embattled renewables group Siemens Energy as part of a €15bn rescue package for the group as it weathers massive losses in it’s wind-turbine unit. The deal is vital to sustaining a €110bn portfolio of clean energy projects planned by the company Siemens Energy has said it is targeting €400mn of cost cuts at its struggling wind turbine business after huge losses forced it to take a €15bn government-backed bailout last month.
“We're making sure we are streamlining wherever possible,” said CEO Christian Bruch.


Shut down nuclear power plants, bail out failing renewables and build more coal power plants! German greens are a funny bunch!

[Tins]

Yes. Well when Bild, Germany's, and Europe's, largest circulation newspaper, turns on the Govt on immigration policy I would predict that the renewables push will be the next target. Germans are in for another cold winter with housing and fuel shortages looming. Bild has not been all that anti govt recently. I guess you could call them populist, but hey.....

[scarry]

Grid size batteries? Never going to occur. The Pumped Hydro 'battery' is really the only larger scale possible now.

""German government has agreed to provide €7.5bn of state guarantees to embattled renewables group Siemens Energy as part of a €15bn rescue package for the group as it weathers massive losses in it’s wind-turbine unit. The deal is vital to sustaining a €110bn portfolio of clean energy projects planned by the company Siemens Energy has said it is targeting €400mn of cost cuts at its struggling wind turbine business after huge losses forced it to take a €15bn government-backed bailout last month.
“We're making sure we are streamlining wherever possible,” said CEO Christian Bruch.[/B![/U]

As others have mentioned,it will be the end user that pays....

[Tins]

Grid size batteries? Never going to occur.

Dead right there.